Beni-Kujaku was saying: So, is that more of a Vegeta move or a Cell move?
Why would it be a Cell move? Are you talking about Black's "you would destroy the planet" comment (in which case, how would that be a Vegeta move)?

How original

This is missing a special, Gast’s connections is fleeting at best, if we want a bond established there should be content inbetween this. Is he friend by previous unknown adventure or did he feel he had a closer bond because he was the one (I think) that read his mind and him concerned is more out of that?

Either way I think something was needed if he’s just being the new piccolo at this point.

I’m going to guess there’s an army of cyborgs on earth right and maybe Gohan is the new android 17.

Maybe Gast may know a way to revive Gohan

I somehow think that Roshi is going to suffer the same fate as the OX-King.

I'm in agreement that Goku shouldn't have kept his body in the first place, since he died from the heart virus (And I always assumed that's what happened in canon, otherwise the story doesn't quite work). This approach isn't solving any plot holes, it's just creating more.

bigdeano89 was saying: Yemma has also been quoted as saying the Androids arent a universal threat, so he wont bend the rules to allow Gokus plan to go ahead, we seen this in the Boujack special aswell.

If you want to bring up the Bojack special as evidence for why this is why things are as they are, then I'm going to bring up the second Broly Special as evidence as to why that doesn't make sense every single time, where Goku just teleported out of the Afterlife momentarily without any sort of authorization in order to help kill Broly.
If he's been training he could easily teleport in and kill at least one Android, if not both, especially if he's been training the whole time he's dead. Or teleport in and teleport Gohan to Namek super quickly. A second is a real long time for Goku.

The more you elaborate on the future timeline, the less it makes any sense whatsoever.

So why doesn't Goku just teleport there now? even if the connection cut out there's realistically nothing stopping him.

What's King Yemma gonna do? send him to hell? Goku would just teleport out XD but on a serious note why not go ask the Supreme Kai for permission to go to earth? or even Yemma? seems weird to not do that.

DrewSaga was saying: Grash was saying: DrewSaga was saying: Grash was saying: DrewSaga was saying: Grash was saying: This is beyond stupid.
1. Gohan has only ever been to one planet that starts with an N so even if Goku gets cut off he should still know the plan
2. Yemma is a clown if he cut this convo off. There is nothing in official Db source material that forbids such a conversation
3. Goku could still use king kai
4. Goku could just telepathically reach out to him himself like when he was talking to king kai against freeza
5. Goku could have told him about the time chamber
6. King Kai could have told him about the chamber
7. Gohan should have been getting zenkais

I hate the future timeline for so many reasons and I think trying to "elaborate on it" will probably make it worse.

Yep, Yemma is a clown for trying to maintain the cosmic balance between the living world and Otherworld (assuming this was him) instead of abusing his power just to save one planet at the expense of the cosmos...in the case of Buu was a credible threat to the whole universe (including Otherworld) so he had to bend the rules there or there would be none. But the Cyborgs #17 and #18 do not pose this threat (though Cell should count in this category when he reached perfection) to the cosmos.

Gohan can't go to space neither so even if Gohan and Bulma knew where New Namek was, they would not have a way of getting there (namely if Goku isn't allowed to intervene).

And Gohan doesn't get any Zenkais since he is already a Super Saiyan.

Otherwise I am surprised that Goku doesn't use King Kai as a medium to communicate with Gohan. My guess is Yemma explicitly forbids Goku from any further interaction with the world of the living which means Goku isn't allowed to gain access through King Kai like he did when he told Roshi to wish him back to life (Yemma likely didn't know that Goku told Roshi to wish him back).

WukongTheMighty was saying: Actually, given what Goku did in that Broly Special way back when, what's stopping Future Goku from just training enough in the Afterlife to achieve 3 and then instagibbing the Androids with a classic telefrag? Hell, Super Saiyan Grade 2 (the bulky Super Vegeta state) would be more than enough!
Is he stupid?
He did it against Broly!

My guess (we will have to see the next few pages) is after this stunt, Enma probably forbade Goku from ever interacting with the world of the living, so this might be it for Goku being able to help Gohan as Goku can't keep manipulating the outcome of the living world as long as he is dead (it's sad but if people in the dead could just keep messing with the world of the living the universe would be thrown in chaos and everything gets messed up, Enma wants to prevent that from happening). King Kai probably chose to honor that as well and told Goku himself that he shouldn't continue meddling (plus there is the Grand Kai and Supreme Kai who likely wouldn't be too thrilled if they found out the North Kai was breaking the rules there).

Kururun was saying: Grash was saying: This is beyond stupid.
1. Gohan has only ever been to one planet that starts with an N so even if Goku gets cut off he should still know the plan
2. Yemma is a clown if he cut this convo off. There is nothing in official Db source material that forbids such a conversation
3. Goku could still use king kai
4. Goku could just telepathically reach out to him himself like when he was talking to king kai against freeza
5. Goku could have told him about the time chamber
6. King Kai could have told him about the chamber
7. Gohan should have been getting zenkais

I hate the future timeline for so many reasons and I think trying to "elaborate on it" will probably make it worse.

Well summarized. I like that Goku is the one to inspire hope in Gohan, that's thematically appropriate. This overexplaining that creates more plotholes than it solves doesn't add anything.

The plot holes already existed in canon, I don't think DBM made that worse by trying to explain it.

"At the expense of the cosmos" is a stretch. Goku stopped an interplanetary tyrant who has murdered billions. Yemma easily owes him many times over and stopping the androids would not unbalance the cosmos. Otherwise evil is actually good. Face it, this is an indefensible plot hole and no amount of jedi mind tricks about balance can fix it.

Fair enough, Goku did save countless lives from Frieza's tyranny, I can't argue that and neither could Yemma (the dude was cheering for Goku when Buu was gonna wipe out all life in the universe and Goku beat him with the Genkidama). Except Goku was alive when he fought and beaten Frieza. In U8, Goku had his chance to fight Frieza and lost and there he wasn't allowed to come back from the dead to fight Frieza. If dead people can keep disrupting the world of the living then what good were the Dragon Balls in bringing people back to life when they can just come back dead. And what would the point of life and death even be for anyone when it's better to just be dead?

"Face it, this is an indefensible plot hole and no amount of jedi mind tricks about balance can fix it. "

What jedi mind tricks? The idea that you can't just "fight evil" however you feel like it without repercussions and that Goku shouldn't tamper with the natural balance of the universe just to do "good" (though I guess Trunks is worse in that regard for time travel, but incidentally it had so little impact on his universe and the infinite multiverse)? Goku died of natural cause and Vegeta floundered as always and the rest of the Z-Fighters didn't stand a chance so it is up to Gohan to beat the Androids as unfair as that is.

Literally this is the mentality of villains, who believe that they can abuse their powers, disrupt the balance of everything including the cosmos in the name of "good". A very common problem in real life too it seems. And although the Androids are a horrible threat to the Earth, they pose no threat to the universe as long as they don't space travel. I have to agree more with your point on Frieza if anything than the Androids where Goku did a great thing for the universe in beating him (though Frieza didn't actually die, but still). However, even Frieza can't conquer something as big as a whole universe, not even close. If Frieza could teleport planet to planet and wipe them out one by one in rapid succession then I agree but only Cell and Buu (I guess U20 Broly too but I mean, that guy is pure BS) fit that bill.

And honestly it is in part Gohan's fault that he can't figure out how to beat the Androids, his U18 counterpart clowned Perfect Cell around and killed Cell after he got a Zenkai and Gohan here couldn't even beat #17 and #18? That's a massive difference in power. In U12, Trunks was a lot weaker than U18 Gohan yet he still beat #17 and #18 easily when he came back and beat Cell after.

To add to this, in the Dragon Ball lore, there is a realm between the world and the living and that is a demon realm (Dabura was the lord of that realm before he became Babidi's tool, it was also where Roshi and Krillin's soul likely went in limbo before Goku met Popo and Kami to bring them back) where chaos and evil reign supreme. In DBM, that dimension was sealed off by the Kaioshins a long time ago just to make sure the rest of the universe is preserved. I suspect that Goku or anyone else meddling too much in the realm of the living while they are dead would cause major cracks in that seal and if the seal is broken, hell get's broken lose in the universe and then the Cyborgs are suddenly less of a problem now.

However in this case I don't think Goku teleporting a couple of times would put a notable dent in that, but if that's Yemma's concern then it's pretty valid as to why he'd put his foot down on the issue and protests against Goku meddling.

Kururun was saying: DrewSaga was saying: The plot holes already existed in canon, I don't think DBM made that worse by trying to explain it.

Yes it's worse now. Because back then it wouldn't be important enough to take time in the story. The author would just handwave it away "everyone died" and never bring up their ways to break the game. We don't know if an explanation could exist, we are allowed to imagine one but it doesn't even matter.

Now in DBM, this plot hole matters AND the explanation is the one given by DBM in this chapter. Two issues at once. Three when you notice how much it makes Enma look like an asshole.

Goku has Kaio phone. They can talk to the Namekians and revive everyone. It's THAT easy. There is no fixing this plothole and trying to is just bad for the story.

Yeah I am pretty sure nobody in DBM before was fond of the whole "Cell/Bojack/Broly kills everyone, The End" specials, or at least I wasn't (though I do understand why they are there, to give artists like Asura time to draw the main story). Though I do miss the U13 Specials and a couple others as they were pretty damn good even compared to this one.

Also how is Enma an asshole for not allowing dead people to do what they want? Keep in mind that Goku isn't even the only dead one meddling in the living world's affairs, Baba is too even after the deal she made with Enma is done.

And although Goku has got the North Kai, I am not sure if North Kai will allow it if Enma doesn't. I think we still need a few pages before we jump the gun, maybe you and Grash are right about North Kai (since he has already allowed Goku to communicate with Roshi to get himself wished back to life so he can fight Nappa and Vegeta).


First of all, Balance is not inherently a good thing. Good must always prevail over evil. Leaving the two equal is tacitly promoting evil. If yemma thinks "a little genocide is ok as long as it's not intergalactic" then he is promoting evil in some way. This is why that "we must not intervene in the natural order" trope is played out and illogical.

If you wanna talk balance. Gero kidnapped some people and forced them into an unnatural process to become cyborgs who then kill people with unnatural power. Therefore it would take an unnatural good action to balance that out. Yes?

Goku bending the rules to save a few billion lives is not the same as a villain abusing power. Not even close. One is saving lives, the other is taking them against innocent people's will. No sensible character would find evil in that.

It's not about leaving good and evil in tact equally. I think that's the misconception about balance. It's not about good and evil being equal and cancelling out, that's not how the real world works, your right about that. Usually it's evildoers that have no respect for balance whatsoever while good people generally have some level of respect for it (many more than others).

Not every case is the same and I doubt Goku would deliberately abuse his power for anything bad or that he would even want to but felt compelled to because of the Cyborgs and how much they harmed the Earth. But I also don't know if Enma understands this nor cares about that or if it's his business to care about that (well, aside from having to deal with the aftermath of someone killing millions, which is a ton of work for him).

"Goku bending the rules to save a few billion lives is not the same as a villain abusing power. Not even close. One is saving lives, the other is taking them against innocent people's will. No sensible character would find evil in that."

Of course not, I never said Goku was bad for doing something good. It'd be great if he gave the Cyborgs what they deserved like he did to Frieza. I don't think it's crazy to think that dead people meddling too much in the affairs of the living could have some major negative repercussions (kind of like when Old Kai was concerned about the Dragon Balls being overused having major repercussions though ultimately agreed to use them to deal with Buu). I also think that in this case Baba might actually take the blame rather than Goku for trying to contact Goku. Who knows.

But I do have to agree that it's odd Goku doesn't contact the King Kai to contact Gohan. At least he could have done that much to try to swing the tide (though it'd still be up to Gohan in that case). I imagine that wouldn't count as major scale interference since King Kai has already had no qualms about talking to people in the living world just to tell them where Namek is to use the Dragon Balls. I think I went a bit extreme in my position on balance to explain something here because Dragon Ball wasn't the best on elaborating on that concept, plus villains also do bad things in the name of balance as well like Thanos in the Avengers Movie where the dude really thought eliminating half the universe's population was some solution to a problem of overpopulation when the dude had an Infinity Gauntlet, why not double the resources or some shit? So there is that downside to "balance" where people inclined to do evil have no respect for it.

"If yemma thinks "a little genocide is ok as long as it's not intergalactic" then he is promoting evil in some way. This is why that "we must not intervene in the natural order" trope is played out and illogical."

But it's not Enma's position to play the hero (and I don't think Enma is in the business of wanting to be a hero), but to judge the souls who pass to heaven or hell (though I am shocked that Baba didn't end up in hell to be frank). He is more like a judge than anything else with the power to send dead souls to heaven or hell (which also makes him incredibly busy too, but his job would be easier when people like Frieza and the Cyborgs are dead themselves). At least we know the Cyborgs are going to hell in a heartbeat for what they have done the moment they are both dead but someone from the living is gonna have to give them the sword of justice down their hearts.


Dead heroes intervening cannot have any negative effects whatsoever. The bad guy only would die in the end. There is literally no downside to Yemma letting this slide. The only reason he wouldn't is if he is an uncaring evil person himself.

That whole "the dead shouldn't meddle" thing is only present in GT and even then it was dubious and poorly executed. Z did not go deeply into this. I think It was just a lazy plot convenience on toriyama's part (in the future timeline). Original source material only shows positive effects of meddling with death. Examples:

1. Reviving Goku stopped the saiyans
2. Reviving Kami revived Guru which revived Porunga which undid some of freeza's damage
3. Time travel to stop Goku Dying resulted in Cell and Kid buu's death
4. Old Kai literally traded life for Goku to fight buu (This makes all his B.S about non intervention in GT Hypocritical)
5. Shenron undid all of Omega shenron's destruction

In all those instances of "meddling" we only see good aftermath. If meddling is supposed to be bad then Toriyama never showed it.

This is hype. Though if Tambo is only like 1% Saiyan, I don't know how he will manage against a guy who is on Dabura's level of strength. Then again, we have no idea what this Tambo is capable of but it's safe to say he has gotten astronomically stronger since the start of the 321Y story that Kibito Kai felt confident that Tambo will fare better than he and Piccolo did.

Gatsu81 was saying: So, Piccolo actually doesn't know him? Guess he really cut his ties to Earth then...

I guess so, but then again, everyone he knew and cared about (aside from Kibito Kai) has passed away it seems long before (this is over 300 Years after DBZ so even Pan, Uub and Bra are long gone). We don't even know where Majin Buu is or what his fate is.

OMG...baba is immortal??? Shes STILL ALIVE!!

That's a neat idea of men could actually help themselves.

This special is my personal version of hell.
This tournament hasn't had a single non-gag/instant win fight, and I don't count Giran ringing himself out as a real fight either.

I find it ironic how Trunks is blaming Gero for the sufferings of others when his traveling through time has caused more suffering across the multiverse.

Ok, I'm honestky confused: as far as I know, Trunks from U12 travelled to U18 dimension and not U16, so how U16 Gohan and Veggeto knew him ?

Obs: read page 56 as reference

This does create an interesting drama scenario though, assuming Salagir is assuming Trunks makes a new timeline travelling each way.

The reason they "won" would be literally be because he abandoned that timeline as its last line of defense by going off to U7 to warn them and give the medicine. I mean technically he did this twice, so there should be two Android universes of his creation out there.

Edit - Though I do keep forgetting the amount of time that passed in relation to the timelines. Would Cell have shown up timeline-wise in Androids 17/18's universe? Has Salagir said what happened in that regard?

How would they sense them. They have no power levels.

I must say Kakarot looks very young on this page. Rather reminiscent of Age 756 Goku.

Oh? Towa is DBM canon? Funny how Dabura says that with the whole SDBH thing happening

I spy with my little eye an AU full-blooded Saiyan Goten and Trunks in panel 5.

Isn't this dragging on? No new information is being told here.

This chapter screams FILLER.

This is a lose lose situation. He loses and dies. He wins and Kami dies too and so what was the point of all this? The only solution is the evil containment wave and it would beg the question as to why he didn't do that in the first place if he's capable

You did not fight another person it was literally her, that's not how the Majin thing works.

Now we're probably gonna get Pan after having seen Bra literally slice her father in half killing him in a grusome way just "Oh you did one nice thing now we're besties again"

Bullshit he is not stronger Popo. NO one is stronger than Popo. It's best to remember the pecking order maggot. It goes you, the dirt, the worms inside of the dirt, Popo's stool, Kami, then Popo.

Igyzone was saying: If there's any sense in this, Buu should be able to find a way and get back eventually because he also devoured numerous scientists.

Nope only the beings from universe 1 can travel across the universes (the Varga said it two pages before).

Buu is kinda fucked. And it's for the best, an omnipotent character is so boring in a story with stakes (even if in DBM they're almost non existent).

popo is no match.Unless we watch anime where he can somewhat handle super saiyan kids which is a joke badly made.

parentS?

I wonder if 'Kami' waiting for his parents here was the first seeds that eventually lead to King Piccolo's manifestation. A feeling of resentment inside, despite knowing otherwise.

Ah. guru. gotcha. cool story though. i dig it.

TyzThePhoenix was saying: Scooters aside, we know Raditz survives this because he was serving under Vegeta. This takes place under Broly’s reign
I need to correct myself. It’s actually during Hanasia’s reign.



ninjasarenameless was saying: TyzThePhoenix was saying: Scooters aside, we know Raditz survives this because he was serving under Vegeta. This takes place under Broly’s reign

Wasn't the last special Vegeta becoming King of the Saiyans? Unless this current special is a prequel.

It’s a prequel as far as it doesn’t come after the last special chronologically of this universe.

And I personally enjoy this series quite a bit. surprisingly I am wondering how the story is going to move on.

The funny issue is that Piccolo would fight Earth's enemies to ... protect the earth in the end. wherever it's his earth or not, soon people living here would be bound to him somehow or another. In any case, I wonder what will happen to 'younglings' Saiyans. Is he going to kill them off or when Raditz is gone he's going to make them his underlings? He's for sure powerful but if it comes to Frieza in future or even Ginyu force he would need at least some help which those could perhaps provide. The one Saiyan girl seems kinda meek tho so dunno

LucasMV was saying: Okay, first, unless the fusion of Piccolo and Kami is stronger than a Super Saiyan, there's no way that would've killed Mr Popo (as we see him handle SSJ Trunks and Goten in Z).
Wow! People really taking that anime scene filler seriously. Popo is might be stronger than young King Piccolo, but he's weaker than old Kami. If Popo was this strong, there will be no reason for Kami to fuse with King Piccolo.

I am 100% sure that him killing Popo is so obvious, that Kami knew it was gona happen...
So that means, that whatever Kami's plan is, it involves him sacrificing Popo and being fine with it... Which I don't know about, seems very odd, out of char./desperate/coldblooded
Especially seeing that all of these years later, Kami's plan still didn't fully work and DKP hasn't been turned yet, plus Ghast "ratted" Kami out to DKP, so now it might not even happen. Shit plan if you ask me :D
Popo could also somehow dodge/survive this and then be kept as a servant/slave :/

Mr. Popo will eat the ki blast and pretend nothing happened.

Seriously though, Kamiccolo waved and said “goodbye, my old friend” to Mr. Popo right after the fusion. Piccolo Jr. had no feeling or anything toward Popo whatsoever. It was all done by Kami inside the nameless namekian. Why would the fusion here be any different? Kami should have instantly changed King Piccolo completely personality-wise. Cos after the fusion, it was no longer King Piccolo aside from the appearance.

I don’t believe they could fuse to become Guru- there’s no way Guru is a Super Namek, certainly not one composed of a great deal of Namekians. He just isn’t on that grind

I'm guessing Shenron put him at his prime age since he asked to be "returned" to his peak in power. My guess is that Kami and King Piccolo will have short fight, and then one of two things will happen:
1. Kami wins the fight and forcefully fuses King Piccolo into him.
2. During their skirmish, Kami convinces King Piccolo into fuses with him.

Thoughts?

Well, there are some survivors, at least.

Guess Kami feels pressured enough to fuse himself to Piccolo, who denies to kill Raditz because he's "too good" now, with Kami holding him back or something.

BTW, I love this art!

So Kami freed Piccolo? Interesting...

See I knew this is exactly what would happen, why on any earth would they be able to stop this incoming threat that's leagues and leagues above them. Kami might be able to do something but not much, and I don't think a re-fusion between him and Piccolo will be enough.

Now technically, this was always a speculated Powerlevel of Kami and most likely untrue, but supposedly at this point Kami is actually supposed to be around 1,000. And we saw just how powerful Piccolo went in the Android Saga when fusing with him became. However, even if they did fuse, I doubt Kami is anywhere near that power level realistically, and I doubt them to fuse, nor if they did would they be capable of stopping this threat at all.

So It's pretty obvious how this is going to end. With Earth's forces and itself being destroyed by the Saiyans.

Raditz Power Level 1500+
Krillin: 300
Yamcha: 250
Muten Roshi: 500

These guys are toast!

The underling saiyans are probably 500 to 800.

cant wait to see kakarot take them down.

Remember Xen Buu is in two locations. I imagine that one of Bardocks visions will come to fruition.

Not going to lie, I did not expect Vegeta's plan, so props for that. HOWEVER, this whole core-business is ever-so-slightly silly to me (ok, a lot). Cell explained it back in Z that one cell is enough for him to survive, he never talked about a semi-organ that he can juggle around in his body XD, big enough to grab like someone's intestines, and if you rip it out, he dies? This is just sloppy. Come on.

Kurotama was saying: Leveler was saying: Wait isn't the Shield supposed to keep participants in from the beginning? Goku, Vegito, Bra and Buu only bypass it because of Teleporting.
Maybe Vegeta knows a thing or two about teleporting
Well, "all" DB characters can teleport/blink over very short distances, so to TP out of the ring, he wouldn't exactly need IT or kai teleportation, especially when he was up againsts the wall... 2-4 meters blink is nothing for Vegeta ;)

is goku gonna fight back at all??

So Frieza and Ginyu are cordial now? That's...kinda anticlimactic

Your nickel was saying: Uub should be a gnat compared to Broly

To be honest: Most of these characters from Buu saga and beyond should be able to kill Broly without even breaking a sweat.
This Broly is waaaay over-buffed.

But why? I'll be back when Brolly goes away.

He doesn't have to win, he just needs to survive and get frozen in space. It's possible the Vargas met Brolly's Z Warriors but had their invitation rebuffed due to this event satisfying any future need for powerful warriors.

C'mon Vegeta, you can't say fuck. This is a Shonen Jump manga. Gotta tone down the language, DBZ ain't R-Rated, despite how bad the fanbase wishes it was.

bigdeano89 was saying: Beelzejow was saying: Crow was saying: Why is Buu so short

Piccolo is 226 cm (7'5")

Buu is supposed to be 8 feet though, whats your point?

is that fat buu, skinny buu, super buu or...





and I'm getting all sorts of conflicting heights online.

I'd probably just assume buu can control his height to whatever he likes and move on. shrinking himself to fit in on earth better too.

Crow was saying: Why is Buu so short

Piccolo is 226 cm (7'5")

Broly should have been taken too .... well this is weird broly here should not be over powering them ... if it's not the broly sent back after the tournament something is wrong here

I want there to be a plot twist where it turns out that broly did actually get defeated. When the Vargas found him they in fact found him in an area that they had sent him to. Either through making a wish with shenron/porunga or by some character (ie. Gogeta) coming in and permanently sending him there.