felfury88 was saying: It may be he is able to revive himself with a senzu. Then he comes back and annihilates cooler. Remember in android saga against 19 piccolo said he way stronger than Goku as a super saiyan.

Piccolo never stated it, Vegeta was likely stronger than Goku at the time, but Goku was also getting giga nerfed by the heart virus. If Goku was full power, he wouldn't have lost to Android 19.

This is also a Vegeta who JUST unlocked SSJ, not a Vegeta who had it unlocked during the 3 years everyone spent training for the Androids.

Where does the Buu go?

That's right, he goes in the Square Hole!

Ok now there have been some details I missed in the original that I only caught in the colored version, but how did I miss THAT

This is the point where Videl decided to wear a bat suit and fight crime

Ah I think I see where this is going, Vegeta showed up to fight the androids and was stronger than goku’s SS. So he loses this fight against cooler and gets a Zenkai. Then comes back and defeats Cooler. Then returns to earth.

Shabby was saying: Perfect Instinct was saying: This is confusing me--what version did you see?

Dude it was right after he gave his speech on sarcasm
I plead Poe's Law

GrandMaster was saying: Bojacks character is being portrayed all wrong. Not a fan of this version of him.
Can you please elaborate on how Bojack's character is being portrayed correctly then, in your opinion? How much character did he have in his movie, Bojack Unbound? Because that's the only "canon" source we can go by. To me, he was a pretty generic villain. He was cruel and arrogant. Something that most villains are. I don't see anything contradicting in DBM's portrayal of Bojack.

But I'm sure you can enlighten us.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: Assuming he has gokus dna, he should have the memories of kaioken and such, since cell had the technique memories from having the dna, even if he never used it.

If I don't remember completely wrong, Cell didn't have the techniques due to the DNA, but because he was conditioned by the computer by repeatedly showing him battles and techniques of the fighters he was composed of.

I don't even know how he has a crew left.

He just kills people at the slightest inconvenience.

Alright which family member is Bojack fighting next? My bet is on Frogurt.

This is it, they have Vegito captured, they can bring him to Cold and he can do the Body change.

He's an expert fighter as proven when he had Bra's body so he'll be able to bring out his full power.

Plus, they won't immediately know they did the change, so the future vision makes sense with Bra calling him "his father".


To further speculate, our group will get one ball, which is why Gohan says without "that" broken ball they won't get the wish (the Dragon balls can be broken in the frozen)

So Vegito (Ginyu) threatens to kill them all if they don't hand over the last dragon ball they have (since it's hidden, they could spend an eternity searching for it in a frozen universe with no dragon radar)

Interesting development. what do they plan to do with Vegito I wonder.

noezrepuS was saying: This is it, they have Vegito captured, they can bring him to Cold and he can do the Body change.

He's an expert fighter as proven when he had Bra's body so he'll be able to bring out his full power.

Plus, they won't immediately know they did the change, so the future vision makes sense with Bra calling him "his father".

Not a bad theory. Maybe what the visions on page 418 and page 731 are really referring to are Vegito's body/power, rather than Vegito himself. Good pull.

Dicax was saying: I just want to remind everyone that all of this is Yamcha's fault. Page 2323-2324.
I forgot about this haha. He gets told straight up that XXI devoured his own universe and plans to do the same to all others and his response is "Well he is really suspicious, but as long as he doesn't threaten anybody :D"

Super Gojita 3 was saying: Kururun was saying: Super Gojita 3 was saying: gohans ssj2 when untrained made him want to torture cell instead of just finishing the battle quickly.
That's less SS2 and more "this guy tortured my friends and killed a kind soul in front of my eyes just to push me to this".

But yeah I have nothing against the concept of "SS1 makes you angry (established by the manga), maybe SS2 of some Saiyans might really push you into EVEN ANGRIER territory".
Maybe Bra should have shown some barely controlled anger in SS1. Not "I'm killing Zangya because she trashtalked" anger, more like "Bra vs Eleim, Bra goes SS1, Bra needs to focus to keep in check and not go haywire because this makes her more impulsive". I guess Bra did show annoyance in that fight but that's not exactly the same.
Less smug, more anger.

eh debateable on the ssj2, but I could see sal using that instance of gohan in ssj2 pushing him over the edge and making him angrier because he was a ssj2, otherwise it would speak for gohan being malicious on his own rather than it being a side effect of the ssj forms.

I mean, he was watching his friends being tortured, and as a ssj1 he wasn't able to really find the motivation to fight let alone do anything for the most part, where as his ssj2 self was frighteningly motivated.

It could, as you said, be gohan being sadistic on his own, but I feel like ssj2 was what really pushed him over to that realm. gokus ssj self did something kinda similar, but not quite. goku as a ssj didn't just beat freeza but allowed him to go fp and fight all out just to embarrass him, and it was to the point where kaio even said "“That is no longer Son Goku, he has become a warrior of fury. A Super Saiyan.”

I feel like ssj2 should have a similar effect unless mastered, for the most part.

Utility was saying: Kururun was saying: Bra defending herself in that scene and Vegeto going kill mode weren't the best ways to write that scene imo.

That entire thing was absolutely horrible. U16 Bra actually starts off realizing what she's done and tries to develop and improve but the other characters just aren't having that. She has to be the flawless princess who did no wrong. And because they hand hold her the whole way she decides to throw away that character development and go back to the way she was making the whole thing pointless. There's a reason why when U16 Pan ran away from her scared and later takes jabs at her that people are cheering for U16 Pan. Because it's the ONLY actual positive growth that came out of that scene and it wasn't even U16 Bra growing from it.

Vegetto kicking U16 Bra is fine. I don't think he needed to do more than that. Honestly I think when she stopped his punch by going SS2 that should have been the realization moment for him to not continue, noticing that SS2 is at least under control now. Having him take it as far as he did makes him look like he wants to kill her when he actually doesn't(or shouldn't). Yes, punish your child when they do wrong, but he's suppose to be a good guy, not jump right to murder.

So if it wasn't bad enough that they make Vegetto look like a bad guy here, they then proceed with the parade of dunking on him. U16 Bra goes from "I deserve death" to "actually Vegetto is a problem too, in fact he's the real problem". You have Gast lecture him, which is understandable since Gast doesn't know their situation, but U16 Gotenks lecturing him is completely unnecessary and again just makes Vegetto look bad. Vegettos choice of dialogue does not even come across as a good guy in this situation, as if they're making him more villainous to give U16 Bra a free pass.

It's like they tried to do an entire role reversal here. They first show a flashback of U16 Bra being a berserker and Vegetto may some day have to make the tough choice to kill her to Vegetto being a monster everyone should worry about and U16 Bra being the victim. It's just going to further divide people on this subject when many people already view U16 Bra as a Mary Sue and feel like Vegetto is acting like what would be out of character for him.


Super Gojita 3 was saying: I was more or less referring to her ssj2 making her go berserk, which you seemed to referenced vs eleim and kold, which she didn't use on them. she did use it vs buu and went breserk there, and in general untrained ssj forms seem to make the user go a bit wild.

Keep in mind though that the person I was originally replying to was trying to say that how Bra is acting right now was character growth and development for her, I was only rebutting that fact.


Super Gojita 3 was saying: Personally I like the smug jerk version of bra, so this works for me here.

anyway, your opinion is completely valid on whether you like or don't like things about dbm, so don't think I'm trying to dismiss you or your opinion on things, and please carry on.

I think this is where people get confused about the Vegeta vs Bra debate. Vegeta was smug, cocky, and arrogant and so many people love him. So why don't they like Bra? Because her smug, cocky, arrogance never leads to her getting put in her place for it. She never takes any losses for it. She just either wins or there's some technicality for why she doesn't outright win.

Yea though, I appreciate you and others that are willing to have a civil discussion about this. I know some posters have gotten real heated about this discussion and that certainly isn't my intention. I just want to discuss the things I like/don't like/wish were better and Bra is at the top of my "wish they were better" list and pretty high on my "don't like" list.

Ah, then it was a misunderstanding on my part about the ssj2 on your post then.


>I think this is where people get confused about the Vegeta vs Bra debate.

nah man, not for me. I didn't really care for any of that, I didn't like vegeta because he was humbled, I liked him because he was a smug jerk.

And some of the "humbling" moments like beatdowns just made him stronger via zenkais, so I don't really care about his win loss record.

I don't look at vegeta the same way other people might. his win loss record and other such things don't matter as much so much as I like his arrogant jerk persona. hes a wild card in db, doing things his own way, and that is why I like him.

and even if we did consider his "comeuppance" most of those really are just short lived punishments. death in db is considered a cheap punishment over all, even dying didn't seem to give vegeta any trauma, he just came back like nothing had happened at all, because to him it didn't.

then, he went on to marry the richest girl in db who was also attractive, so I kinda don't feel like he suffered enough if we did go by that.

if anything, all he cared about was surpassing goku, the rest didn't matter other than minor setbacks, I guess.

in any case, I don't feel like I've made any kind of rebuttal to your points, because I wasn't intending to. My opinion is that I like the smug jerk saiyan with saiyan royalty who is I guess 2nd place in his or her respective universe, and I don't really care to play into the discussion that characters need humbling to be considered likable or not, as even some people don't like vegeta in spite of any humbling he had recieved.

Just enjoy what you enjoy, and dislike that which you dislike. I don't intend to change your opinion or assert you are wrong on any level.

Your opinion isn't wrong by virtue of all opinions (mostly) are right by their very nature.


I actually think U13 Vegeta is the perfect Vegeta. The Vegeta who stayed an evil bastard, never lost, and became the emperor of the Universe, not just King or Prince of Saiyans

Super Gojita 3 was saying: gohans ssj2 when untrained made him want to torture cell instead of just finishing the battle quickly.
That's less SS2 and more "this guy tortured my friends and killed a kind soul in front of my eyes just to push me to this".

But yeah I have nothing against the concept of "SS1 makes you angry (established by the manga), maybe SS2 of some Saiyans might really push you into EVEN ANGRIER territory".
Maybe Bra should have shown some barely controlled anger in SS1. Not "I'm killing Zangya because she trashtalked" anger, more like "Bra vs Eleim, Bra goes SS1, Bra needs to focus to keep in check and not go haywire because this makes her more impulsive". I guess Bra did show annoyance in that fight but that's not exactly the same.
Less smug, more anger.

Kururun was saying: Bra defending herself in that scene and Vegeto going kill mode weren't the best ways to write that scene imo.

That entire thing was absolutely horrible. U16 Bra actually starts off realizing what she's done and tries to develop and improve but the other characters just aren't having that. She has to be the flawless princess who did no wrong. And because they hand hold her the whole way she decides to throw away that character development and go back to the way she was making the whole thing pointless. There's a reason why when U16 Pan ran away from her scared and later takes jabs at her that people are cheering for U16 Pan. Because it's the ONLY actual positive growth that came out of that scene and it wasn't even U16 Bra growing from it.

Vegetto kicking U16 Bra is fine. I don't think he needed to do more than that. Honestly I think when she stopped his punch by going SS2 that should have been the realization moment for him to not continue, noticing that SS2 is at least under control now. Having him take it as far as he did makes him look like he wants to kill her when he actually doesn't(or shouldn't). Yes, punish your child when they do wrong, but he's suppose to be a good guy, not jump right to murder.

So if it wasn't bad enough that they make Vegetto look like a bad guy here, they then proceed with the parade of dunking on him. U16 Bra goes from "I deserve death" to "actually Vegetto is a problem too, in fact he's the real problem". You have Gast lecture him, which is understandable since Gast doesn't know their situation, but U16 Gotenks lecturing him is completely unnecessary and again just makes Vegetto look bad. Vegettos choice of dialogue does not even come across as a good guy in this situation, as if they're making him more villainous to give U16 Bra a free pass.

It's like they tried to do an entire role reversal here. They first show a flashback of U16 Bra being a berserker and Vegetto may some day have to make the tough choice to kill her to Vegetto being a monster everyone should worry about and U16 Bra being the victim. It's just going to further divide people on this subject when many people already view U16 Bra as a Mary Sue and feel like Vegetto is acting like what would be out of character for him.


Super Gojita 3 was saying: I was more or less referring to her ssj2 making her go berserk, which you seemed to referenced vs eleim and kold, which she didn't use on them. she did use it vs buu and went breserk there, and in general untrained ssj forms seem to make the user go a bit wild.

Keep in mind though that the person I was originally replying to was trying to say that how Bra is acting right now was character growth and development for her, I was only rebutting that fact.


Super Gojita 3 was saying: Personally I like the smug jerk version of bra, so this works for me here.

anyway, your opinion is completely valid on whether you like or don't like things about dbm, so don't think I'm trying to dismiss you or your opinion on things, and please carry on.

I think this is where people get confused about the Vegeta vs Bra debate. Vegeta was smug, cocky, and arrogant and so many people love him. So why don't they like Bra? Because her smug, cocky, arrogance never leads to her getting put in her place for it. She never takes any losses for it. She just either wins or there's some technicality for why she doesn't outright win.

Yea though, I appreciate you and others that are willing to have a civil discussion about this. I know some posters have gotten real heated about this discussion and that certainly isn't my intention. I just want to discuss the things I like/don't like/wish were better and Bra is at the top of my "wish they were better" list and pretty high on my "don't like" list.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: Vs eleim that was ssj1. vs kold she didn't go ssj at all. it was always ssj2 that made her lose control, not ssj1.

That's why I specified attitude, to establish that she doesn't just rage out or go berserk on everyone, even if they're evil. It was needed to draw a comparison between her fight here with U13 to show she's been in control when fighting before so it isn't anything progressing her supposed "redemption".


Super Gojita 3 was saying: like, imagine if future trunks did anything bra did even with ssj2 as his excuse. I would feel trunks would feel awful as opposed to "yahoo! I surpassed gohan!"

So idk if I'm in the minority here but I actually love this setup. A saiyan who isn't the legendary super saiyan but goes berserk under the drunkeness of their own power not meaning to actually hurt the people she cares about. Furthermore, she's just a little kid at the time so she probably isn't really thinking about the magnitude of what she's done. Also the dynamic of having Vegetto come to the realization he may have to kill his daughter one day because she may become an uncontrolable monster is great. I absolutely love that as a backstory...

However, the execution I have an issue with and the overall writing of the characters personality has been unbearable. I feel like we got her backstory way too late, there was little buildup to it and no real consequences to her actions outside of Pan being afraid of her, and if she were really afraid of her father killing her she wouldn't still be acting like a spoiled child. Also why not show his side of things. He clearly doesn't "want" to have to kill his daughter, but not only has that not been shown to be something on his mind, after the majinization of Bra they have him go full terminator mode on her when it's obvious she's in control of herself again therefore just making Vegetto look like the monster for no good reason.

They had the chance to make her a sympathetic character, afraid of her own power because of what she could do but hesitantly trying to master it. She looked up to her father which is fine, but then why drag his name through the mud when she messes up? Why does this comic dunk on Vegetto when she's the problem? Yea he has an ego issue, so it's fair to put him in his place sometimes for that, but they don't depict him as the hero he's suppose to be. They make him overreact to things and constantly get made to look foolish while praising Bra any chance they get.

R3KT was saying:
As we've seen through flashbacks, events at the tournament, and through Vegito's words; Bra's whole objective is to be able to control herself and refrain from being a source of pure destruction. Bra being able to stay in Super Saiyan 2 and to use a less-destructive move while doing so, shows growth in her character. Wouldn't it make sense that if Earth's previous hero in Goku, who was righteous and never fought for the objective of killing, learnt underneath Master Roshi that perhaps someone who is lacking on those qualities would also study under the same teacher? "Work hard, study well, and eat and sleep plenty. That is the Turtle Hermit way!", so perhaps this is Bra finding her own inner peace and control. But, we have yet to see the next page - if she does indeed just pacify them with control of her power, or if she goes too far again. Seeing as she has realized her mistakes after freeing herself from the Majin mind-control, I'd say she's on-course to being her better self. Was this not the case for Vegeta, who until then had struggled with the idea of being Goku's lesser and was questioning his own path to peace?

This has absolutely nothing to do with Bra controlling herself. Her being able to be in SS2 is due to the Majinization, which we've already seen her be in SS2 and not lose control before so this isn't new. She also didn't kill Eleim or even Cold, and that was before the Majinization or her supposed "Redemption Arc" so it isn't a change in attitude either. The only reason she killed Zangya and wanted to attack Bojack was for what he did to Pan. She has no reason to be that upset with the U13 group here, and it's advantageous to take them without killing them, so this doesn't show any development for her at all. As far as personality goes, she's acting no different here at all.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: Today was saying: She didn't get frozen during the transmission between bubbles?

goku and co. established that shunkaidou can go between bubbles wit no issue prior, when he and the u18 gang warped to the u16 gang.. I don't think her shunkaidou would be any less effective.

Warping from a bubble to no bubble was the issue, when he went to cell.
It's Shunkanidou with two n's. Shunkan means instant.

She didn't get frozen during the transmission between bubbles?

BangBang was saying: The joke sounds translatable.
In the French version, this is the dialog :

Vegeta : "It's bigger on the inside"
Doctor : "Hehe, for sure."
Vegeta : "Who are you ?"
Doctor : "Ah, yes, « Who » indeed !"
Doctor : "Fuck, it really doesn't work in French"

The French name of the serie is "Doctor Who", it's not translated to "Docteur Qui".
In French, Vegeta doesn't exactly ask "Who are you", which is "Qui es-tu ?", but he says "T'es qui toi ?" (which isn't Official-French correct, but Usual-French ok).
"T'es qui toi ?" could be translated, word by word, as "You are who, you ?". And this is why the Doctor answer "« Who », indeed".

ZenBuu was saying: Sometimes it really makes me wonder how some of you guys, who keep repeating this bad writing phrase, would write a great story and why you don't have a comic released which is as popular as DBM is. 🤔

You two both knew what was referred, but you chose to dodge the main issue.
No point to argue anymore. You are the admins anyway

Ammar was saying: U13 Vegeta also been training for the past 20 years before the tournament. I don't know why you're assuming the gap is that big? Both of them are in same transformation. Is U18 SSJ3 Vegeta stronger? Yes, but not stronger to the point that he can one-shot his U13 counterpart. That's ridiculous. Also, going by the last U18 special, U18 Vegeta didn't unlock SSJ3 in the 12 years after Buu:
So, yes. The gap is not that big.

U13 Vegeta just hit Buu Saga SSJ Goku level yesterday. And 18 Vegeta from 20 years ago has the same base power as current U13 vegeta.

If you cannot see U18 Vegeta’s progress is ahead of U13 vegeta for over 20 years. I have no more words

ZenBuu was saying: You can say that you think the story is bad. That's your opinion then. Stop twisting my words. The way you wrote it, was more like it's an established fact, that it is indeed "bad writing".

Sometimes it really makes me wonder how some of you guys, who keep repeating this bad writing phrase, would write a great story and why you don't have a comic released which is as popular as DBM is. 🤔

“If you are not a great cooking Chef, how could you say other Chef cook bad?”
“If you are not a great basketball player, how could you say some NBA members are bad?”

Am I twisting your logic here?😉

仅是剑客 was saying: Wait, this tiny trick can work on someone who are stronger than him?

I knew U18 Vegeta would intercept but I didn't expect the small trick can break his hand like this.

It's still absurd that an entry level SSJ1 can interrupt the SSJ3 level fight.

Can't they just "dodge"? Why take every attack hands on? A SSJ3 has to take an entry level SSJ1's attack is beyond imaginable.

U13 Vegeta's distracted. Krillin hurt Goku in SSJ with a rock once while he was sleeping.

SuperSaiyanGodVegeto was saying: Super Gojita 3 was saying: as strange as it sounds, I'm going to make a guess...

Vegeta learns the vibration thing a different way, requiring ssj3 (somehow it works and ssj0 does not)

and u13 vegeta is humbled by a vegeta who not only is using his inferior form, but is doing double duty as a fighter and while making a bubbble, for himself anyway.

as to why ssj3 works and ssj0 doesn't?

I dunno, the huge ki consumption acts a side effect that makes it work out that way by accident, not design.

but it might allow for goku and vegeta to use ssj2 or the ssj0 form later, maybe.

This would be cool
It would make SSJ3 more relevant than ever
SSJ3 is my favorite transformation for Saiyans
It looks so badass
And that it puts so much strain on the user makes it cooler to me (obviously not as much strain as kaioken)
It’s a form reserved for the best of the Saiyans
I just wish they could make it last longer, at least after years of training and eventual mastery

I really like SSJN, even more than SSJ1 and SSJ2,(and definitely more than anything in super) but SSJ3 is the best to me
I like SSJ4 more than anything that came out in super, but again SSJ3 just can’t be beat in my eyes

Funny enough going by that logic it would make that scene in super hero relevant. Where piccolo states gohans eyes get better in super saiyan. In dbm the magic affecting gohan and what goku and vegeta did to mimic that magic was to seperate the effects of super saiyan from the power it gives. In this case the ss3 affects on the body would would protect goku and vegeta from the life stop.

Igyzone was saying: Namekian with an injured arm? Just use Piccolo's cure - rip it off and grow a new one.

I think it's more that he can't do it without disrupting his barrier. The barrier stops the life stop but from what it seems atks and people can move freely in and out of it. Healing while maintaining a barrier takes to much focus.

仅是剑客 was saying: Seriously, why took Pan here? The Namekian is necessary but Pan?

And They were taking about use the "normal SSJ" as new base. But both Goku & Vegeta rarely use it.

Imaging if the U13 Vegeta is hitting them with SSJ3, both Pan and the Namekian would be dead now. And U18 Vegeta is doomed.

I can't understand the stupidity of this tiny team, you can't always count on the author to bail you out.

They are a scout team that has a teleporter. Plus even without pan that atk would have passed through the barrier. This is more on vegeta for not erecting barrier just in case. Of surprise attack.

King Kindred was saying: The real question is: Why is the time freeze still active? Why would South Kaioshin keep it active this long? It wouldn't make sense for him to be affected by it as the user. Because if he was why would I'K'L give it to him to use?

Xxi is keeping the effect open not the Kai. Why is he not interrupting the technique is that he's new to it. He also wondering why xxi has the technique. He looked like he felt betrayed when xxi used it earlier.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: as strange as it sounds, I'm going to make a guess...

Vegeta learns the vibration thing a different way, requiring ssj3 (somehow it works and ssj0 does not)

and u13 vegeta is humbled by a vegeta who not only is using his inferior form, but is doing double duty as a fighter and while making a bubbble, for himself anyway.

as to why ssj3 works and ssj0 doesn't?

I dunno, the huge ki consumption acts a side effect that makes it work out that way by accident, not design.

but it might allow for goku and vegeta to use ssj2 or the ssj0 form later, maybe.
Interesting idea.
Ssj0 going by the descriptions in its premiere chapter doesn't let the effects of ki activate onto the body.
It would make sense that ssj3 aura would protect against the life stop because it has an aura. Ss3 would simply be the strength level needed to keep the life stop aura from affecting the body.

siksteen was saying: Hm I guess Vegeta can't even teleport to her, or anyone else for that matter. That's actually a great way for the story to limit instant transmition, which is way too OP anyway.

I guess with Vegetto's or Kibito's teleport that would work fine while also teleporting the Namek and pan, but I'm not sure Vegeta (or even Goku) can do that one.
Goku teleported to Cell (Page 2578) and U16 (Page 2580), so instant transmission is possible. But if the target is more than 1 kilometre away, it becomes impossible. (Page 2624)

The reason Vegeta can't teleport to 18 here is that 18 is a cyborg and doesn't have a ki signature to lock onto.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: ok, we are done with power level discussions. anything after this gets deleted.

Can we talk about your profile image of SSJ3 Gogeta actually looks like SSJ3 Raditz? Considering the super long hair far exceed SSJ3 Gokus'.

iron leaf was saying: I suspect some people misunderstand the difference between the artificial gravity that the Varga built into the tournament arena and the general gravity on the asteroid on which the arena itself stands.

It's true. During the tournament, the Varga constantly manipulated the gravity of the fighting ring planet in the arena. They were also able to change the gravity of the spectator stands when Vegetto pulled everything toward him as he prepared the “Final Dragon Flash.”

However, there is no question that outside the arena, conventional gravity is the same as inside the arena. We saw that when Zen Buu (allegedly) wanted to absorb Broly, Vegetto, Son Bra, and Gohan kept the pink demon busy long enough for Broly to be sent to his universe. When all four returned, they were deliberately outside the arena, where no one would notice them immediately (mainly the Varga/organizers). There, on page 278, there is clearly regular gravity similar to that on Earth.



In addition, the Varga control tower was destroyed when the MR-Arc started, which basically controls everything organizational within the arena. The arena was completely devastated when the stranded “heroes” returned, but they automatically found themselves in normal gravity, even though all equipment that manipulates gravity was obviously destroyed during the MR-Arc (on page 1818). It can be assumed that, apart from the tournament fights, the asteroid hosting the tournament has similar gravity to Earth.

Changing the subject, what about the oxygen? How is everyone able to breathe almost everywhere? Vegeta and Goku are 1km of distance between space and ruins.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: if this is satan, I'd prefer he just be a strong guy who had strength training and no real fundamentals. but this is good too.

Why? He's an actual Martial Artist and World Champion. Without fundamentals his strength would mean nothing.

Your nickel was saying: Polar was saying: Looks like kachin weapons can hurt him. I wonder where combat videls sword pieces are.
The Z-Sword broke against katchin, so it's probably not made of it
A steel sword would fail too if you smashed it into a block of steel.
Its not katchin for sure though, katchin is black and less dense than the z-sword. Goku was able to lift and throw a huge block of it in base when he was barely able to swing the sword.

So a Kaioshin Goddess with her potential unlocked by Old Kaioshin, weilding the Z-Sword was strong enough to defeat XXI? Interesting.

Btw, at first I wondered why Old Kaioshin was still old if this was in ancient times... then I remembered he was probably sealed in the Z-Sword soon after this, thus remaining the same age in present times. Though I'm not sure who sealed him in DBM canon, since Beerus doesn't exist.

About the font thing: I have no problem with keeping the font in the comic. It matches the style.

I think there should just be a message under each page with the text. Think of it like alt text for images. It would also help with mobile since the text is too small and I don't think a font can fix that with this style of art.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: Arklaw was saying: Defeated and Concealed do not rhyme.

so, this might be an example of other sorts of poems.

not all poems have to rhyme so much as they can have other attributes.

The three main genres of poetry are Narrative, which tells a story (like an epic); Lyric, which expresses personal emotions and thoughts (like a sonnet); and Dramatic, written to be performed (like a play), with comedy and tragedy being subgenres. These categories help classify poems based on their purpose, from storytelling to emotional expression to performance.

This probably falls in line with "narrative" poems. or I assume so.

while some words rhyme, thats mostly for flavor, as opposed to being required in the strictest sense.
It's fine, but lack of consistency can throw people off. I think that's what's bothering people a little.

It is a shame that it's taking away from the actual conversation.

Defeated and Concealed do not rhyme.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: maybe the author could reprint all the text as a comment as the first comment or the translators, just for ease of access.
Alright, I'm gonna do that:

A tragic saga in all universes written:
The tale of a beast against the Gods of old,
An insatiable hunger of times forgotten
The Devourer of Matter, a scion foretold

In these times long bygone, his shadows devoured
Many worlds and peoples, lost and plundered
Ruins and fear, for those were his empire
Of which remained but an image so dire

Some people have no problem to read, some others have difficulties, unhappily that was possible.

Here's the text for those who could need it ! :)

A tragic saga in all universes written:
The tale of a beast against the Gods of old,
An insatiable hunger of times forgotten
The Devourer of Matter, a scion foretold

In these times long begone, his shadows devoured
Many worlds and peoples, lost and plundered
Ruins and fears, for those were his empire
Of which remained but an image so dire


By the way, we're glad you're enjoying that chapter's beginning so far, thank you for your reactions !

I wonder if it'll be explained in this chapter that Carbonite was mined from the dead XXI in the tech universe.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: Roos was saying: Super Gojita 3 was saying: siksteen was saying: Alien tech, that's all we need to know.

But it is pretty funny that they can do this and Shenron cannot. Although I dont think Shenron could transform humans into cyborgs either, so...

Like I said before, he can't do it without the androids consent



citing "against their will"

simply put, he can do it, but they were too strong to do unwillingly.

thorn has a way to get around that, and lets just say the androids who don't comply won't be turned back, but they won't be androids anynore either.

they'll be scrap metal.

No, he actually can't, partly because that would mean he couldn't remove the bomb without permission either. This was a mistake by the viz translators I think. Shenron only actually said that the Androids were beyond his reach of power, and that he couldn't interfere in the lives of beings beyond his capabilites.



"それはできない ふたりの人造人間は わたしの力を 大きく超えている の そういう カラダに関しては わたしは だ 手出しできないのだ かん し"
— > "That's impossible. The two androids far surpass my abilities. When it comes to their bodies, I simply can't do anything."

The fact he doesn't ask Android 18 who is there if he can reverse it, and every other translation of the media I've personally read or watched doesn't mention consent in regards to this scene is also supporting evidence this was a mistake. It's a bit ridiculous that he can't imo.

I just threw this in google translate, and all it really tells me is that they are too powerful.

"I can't do that. The two artificial humans are far beyond my power."

which is in line with how he handled the saiyans.

https://i.imgur.com/Ky35RPG.jpg

Basically the same thing. the saiyans surpass god, and can't be dealt with. the strength is the biggest factor here, and while its not canon to dbm obviously, they later did some really dumb things in later db canon where they had the db's effect 18 without asking her if it was kosher, as in turning her into a kid.

Yeah, someone needs to be fired for that blunder, but its not as though they couldn't do what vegetto suggested or close to it, as in just make a new human body, transfer the soul into that, and be done with it, even assuming that somehow the actual cyborg body was too strong to be altered directly. the db's seem able to revive 18 so I don't see them as being completely immune to them, all things considered

the wish for the bomb removal was allowed in the cell saga because it didn't harm or diminish them, which by my own admission seems a bit far fetched. it does diminish them because now they don't have an option if something else comes up.
Right, but the difference was the Saiyan's "power" refers to their personal strength, since Oolong wanted them defeated, and since Krillin wanted to change them back to normal, the Androids "power" refers to the technology they were modified with being far too complex for Shenron to understand, hence the "great and strange" part of his quote.

The wording used between these two make it understandable that the translators would make a mistake, since they thought they meant the same thing, but the nuances between them prove to be different.

Dr. Briefs, one the smartest people in the world, couldn't even fully comprehend Dr. Gero's blueprints, so it makes a bit more sense in that the knowledge that goes into the androids is too great for Shenron to do anything about it.

I don't think it's that big a deal for Thorn being able to reverse it, since he comes from a planet of scholars after all, and he's shown performing this kind of feat before, understanding how to fly Frieza's ship after a brief look(page 917.) the Elders of the planet even mention younger generations of their planet are quite intelligent due to their planet being a knowledge hub(Page 915.)

I think some people are just upset that he says it's easy to understand, or are annoyed at his arrogance which I get to a point, but he's grown quite a bit since then, so he's a great deal smarter than before, but still young, so he's a little cocky because of it. At the very least I could suspend my disbelief that he coild figure it out.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: siksteen was saying: Alien tech, that's all we need to know.

But it is pretty funny that they can do this and Shenron cannot. Although I dont think Shenron could transform humans into cyborgs either, so...

Like I said before, he can't do it without the androids consent



citing "against their will"

simply put, he can do it, but they were too strong to do unwillingly.

thorn has a way to get around that, and lets just say the androids who don't comply won't be turned back, but they won't be androids anynore either.

they'll be scrap metal.

No, he actually can't, partly because that would mean he couldn't remove the bomb without permission either. This was a mistake by the viz translators I think. Shenron only actually said that the Androids were beyond his reach of power, and that he couldn't interfere in the lives of beings beyond his capabilites.



"それはできない ふたりの人造人間は わたしの力を 大きく超えている の そういう カラダに関しては わたしは だ 手出しできないのだ かん し"
— > "That's impossible. The two androids far surpass my abilities. When it comes to their bodies, I simply can't do anything."

The fact he doesn't ask Android 18 who is there if he can reverse it, and every other translation of the media I've personally read or watched doesn't mention consent in regards to this scene is also supporting evidence this was a mistake. It's a bit ridiculous that he can't imo.

Alien tech, that's all we need to know.

But it is pretty funny that they can do this and Shenron cannot. Although I dont think Shenron could transform humans into cyborgs either, so...

YellNinja1600 was saying: A cyborg namek is so unique. It’s actually possible since many nameks spread out when they came from the demon realm not everyone settled on namek. Some nameks could’ve settled on other planets like the one from dragonball super with Granolah. Moniato I think was his name. Then there’s the possibility this namek could’ve been one of the namek children sent to another planet like kami when the world had a great catalysm. But why doesn’t this namek just regenerate from his scars unless they were permanent ?
no he cant be a cataclysm survivor

if he was, hed be at least as old as kami

Thorn ~ 1
Shenron ~ 0

The question of how Gast apparently knows about the Nucleus arises. I have to admit, I would have written it myself so that Cell survives, precisely because the nucleus is still somehow intact, secretly leaves Earth, later causes terror elsewhere in the universe, Gast meets Cell again, and in the final confrontation, the Namekian clearly learns about the nucleus. This would give more meaning to U10 Nail's statement at the beginning of the comic and explain why Gast aims so precisely at a specific spot on Cell Jr.'s head with just a single eye laser.

Nevertheless, I must also say that Cell's fight against Dabura in the DBM tournament actually provides enough clues for Gast. Cell decapitates himself to escape petrification and heals his entire body. Gast would know from this moment on, at the latest, that Cell alone with an intact head is capable of surviving.

this is a happy ending, but gast did know were the cell jr core was in the tournamnent and you dont learn these things unless they have bitten you in the ass before.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: Damian Qualshy was saying: AnyEdge was saying: Aurel was saying: AnyEdge was saying:
That's what I want to know! I'm reading through these comments, and I'm surprised what people are saying about Frost Demons. Granted, it's been many years since I read the manga, but I don't remember anything about Frost Demons being able to survive "in chunks", or anything like that. I do, however, remember Freiza telling Goku that Frost Demons can survive in space - but nothing about them being able to survive in pieces.


It probably comes from the fact that when Frieza was cut into pieces by Trunks, he was still alive (Until he was blasted away). This is brought up again in DBS (which, yeah it's not canon to DBM but it can still be informative) when he's brought back to life and is.. still in pieces and alive, and has to be put back together by his henchmen.


Sodapopinski was saying: well, tbf, Frieza floated around with like half his torso gone and only one limb remaining, acting like it wasn't a big deal.

And in the Forbidden Texts, he was resurrected as a bunch of chunks and survived just fine.

They seem pretty bloody durable.


mAc Chaos was saying: AnyEdge was saying: Damian Qualshy was saying: Okay how is he supposed to regenerate from that? He got completely vaporized. It's not even the same as Goku's Instant Transmission Kamehameha where half of Cell was left.
Unless another Cell shows up lol.

Mustard was saying: MajinPower was saying: That’s when Kulilin goes back thinking Gast won. Cell regenerates, kills Kulilin and Gohan and Gast kills him.
I'm gonna be upset if that happens. Again, the only reason Cell was able to survive with just one cell was Freeza's DNA. This Cell should be limited to Namekian healing abilities.
HOW did you all people came to that conclusion? Freeza nor Cold can't heal on their own.

That's what I want to know! I'm reading through these comments, and I'm surprised what people are saying about Frost Demons. Granted, it's been many years since I read the manga, but I don't remember anything about Frost Demons being able to survive "in chunks", or anything like that. I do, however, remember Freiza telling Goku that Frost Demons can survive in space - but nothing about them being able to survive in pieces.

That being said, I'm really curious to know where those making these claims are getting them from? Not attacking anyone - I geniunely want to know.


— --

Also, that explosion in the last panel is sick!

It's because we already know Freeza can survive otherwise fatal wounds, like when he gets cut in half on Namek, or floats around after Namek explodes on top of him. He's still alive when Cold finds him. But after that there's also the RoF movie where they wish him back, and even the chunks Trunks cut up are still alive. So you combine that with Namek regeneration and you get what Cell can do.


mx1mum was saying: AnyEdge was saying: Damian Qualshy was saying: Okay how is he supposed to regenerate from that? He got completely vaporized. It's not even the same as Goku's Instant Transmission Kamehameha where half of Cell was left.
Unless another Cell shows up lol.

Mustard was saying: MajinPower was saying: That’s when Kulilin goes back thinking Gast won. Cell regenerates, kills Kulilin and Gohan and Gast kills him.
I'm gonna be upset if that happens. Again, the only reason Cell was able to survive with just one cell was Freeza's DNA. This Cell should be limited to Namekian healing abilities.
HOW did you all people came to that conclusion? Freeza nor Cold can't heal on their own.

That's what I want to know! I'm reading through these comments, and I'm surprised what people are saying about Frost Demons. Granted, it's been many years since I read the manga, but I don't remember anything about Frost Demons being able to survive "in chunks", or anything like that. I do, however, remember Freiza telling Goku that Frost Demons can survive in space - but nothing about them being able to survive in pieces.

That being said, I'm really curious to know where those making these claims are getting them from? Not attacking anyone - I geniunely want to know.


— --

Also, that explosion in the last panel is sick!

Frieza survived Namek’s explosion missing a chunk of his head and face, an arm, and his lower half.

It’s also revealed in DBS that Frieza can even survive being cut up into pieces.

When his henchmen bring him back to life with the Dragon Balls he’s brought back in the same condition as he was before trunks blasted him.Despite being revived as a bunch of chunks he was still alive and able to be put back together.


Just going to respond to everyone at once...

I don't think Frieza living for a while after being fatally injured had anything to do with his physiology or species. DBZ has always been about power, and power levels. Power allows characters to frequently do absolutely absurd things that otherwise shouldn't be possible.

As far as denying death, let's look at some examples:

1) Yamcha had a whole arm go through his body. Didn't immediately die.

2) Piccolo had a hole blasted through his body (and I'm pretty sure Cell broke his neck as well), AND he was thrown into the water. Didn't immediately die. In fact, he lasted way longer than he should have.

3) Goku was pushed so far down into magma on Namek, that Frieza was sure Goku would be dead. Even Gohan thought he was dead. Not only did Goku not die, the magma didn't even harm him.


As far as anything from DBS is concerned, am I remembering incorrectly, or did Salagir already say that nothing from DBS would be used/considered for DBM? That's important, because being able to survive in pieces was not something that was explicitly established for the Frost Demons in DBZ.

On the topic of Namek, Frieza was on the verge of death after getting sliced in half by his own disk. Goku gave Frieza some of his own energy, which allowed Frieza to move around. If I remember correctly, Goku even acknowledged that the energy he gave him would only "...buy [Frieza] a little more time...", and that he (Frieza) should use the time he has left to reflect on his actions - suggesting that Frieza was indeed going to die. I firmly believe that Frieza would have died had Goku not shared his energy with him.

On the topic of being killed by Trunks. I chalk that up to a long-running meme in anime and martial films. Trunks came in, sliced Frieza up so fast, that Frieza didn't even know what was going on - then immediately blew him up. The whole "delay of death after being quickly sliced" has been used in martial arts medium for literal decades. That's not indicative of Frieza, or Frost Demons, being special little survivors.

Heck, even DBZ Broly was stabbed, and still had enough power to protect himself, and his father, through space as an infant. It's non-canon, so I can't really count it in this list, but that's kind of the whole theme of the DBZ side of DB.

So, that's what I think. I'm curious to know what anyone else thinks about this.

Oh, and thank you to everyone who responded.

All that still doesn't explain anything. Piccolo also can survive anything, as long as his head stays alive. Has everyone forget that?

well, thats maybe true for kamicollo. piccolo died from being blasted by nappa and his whole body was intact. kamicollo was a triple fusion namek, who stated as long as his head remains intact, he can regenerate.

I will concede that cells regen is beyond that, and who knows, maybe this cell can survive in space like he said from the arthropod dna, and his regen works like canon cell.

I'm not refuting cells ability to come back here, provided his core remains. just that it seems to require a namekian fused being to have regeneration that works provided his head remains.
Well Piccolo obviously isn't immortal, that head thing applies to regeneration of his limbs. But I wouldn't say the attack from Nappa is a good argument. ALTHOUGH he didn't get that heavily damaged anyway, so how exactly did he die? Just from being burnt?

But it's true that a regular Namek probably wouldn't survive getting his limbs cut off/shattered. I forgot how good Kamiccolo's regen actually is (not just triple fusion, but he's also a Super Namek). And Cell's is definitely even more amplified. Even this one.

But I still don't buy that it was Freeza's and Cold's DNA that makes the most out of it. He would definitely get a lot of durability from them and power, and space travel. But it being the sole reason for Cell's core survivability? That's a stretch.

AnyEdge was saying: Aurel was saying: AnyEdge was saying:
That's what I want to know! I'm reading through these comments, and I'm surprised what people are saying about Frost Demons. Granted, it's been many years since I read the manga, but I don't remember anything about Frost Demons being able to survive "in chunks", or anything like that. I do, however, remember Freiza telling Goku that Frost Demons can survive in space - but nothing about them being able to survive in pieces.


It probably comes from the fact that when Frieza was cut into pieces by Trunks, he was still alive (Until he was blasted away). This is brought up again in DBS (which, yeah it's not canon to DBM but it can still be informative) when he's brought back to life and is.. still in pieces and alive, and has to be put back together by his henchmen.


Sodapopinski was saying: well, tbf, Frieza floated around with like half his torso gone and only one limb remaining, acting like it wasn't a big deal.

And in the Forbidden Texts, he was resurrected as a bunch of chunks and survived just fine.

They seem pretty bloody durable.


mAc Chaos was saying: AnyEdge was saying: Damian Qualshy was saying: Okay how is he supposed to regenerate from that? He got completely vaporized. It's not even the same as Goku's Instant Transmission Kamehameha where half of Cell was left.
Unless another Cell shows up lol.

Mustard was saying: MajinPower was saying: That’s when Kulilin goes back thinking Gast won. Cell regenerates, kills Kulilin and Gohan and Gast kills him.
I'm gonna be upset if that happens. Again, the only reason Cell was able to survive with just one cell was Freeza's DNA. This Cell should be limited to Namekian healing abilities.
HOW did you all people came to that conclusion? Freeza nor Cold can't heal on their own.

That's what I want to know! I'm reading through these comments, and I'm surprised what people are saying about Frost Demons. Granted, it's been many years since I read the manga, but I don't remember anything about Frost Demons being able to survive "in chunks", or anything like that. I do, however, remember Freiza telling Goku that Frost Demons can survive in space - but nothing about them being able to survive in pieces.

That being said, I'm really curious to know where those making these claims are getting them from? Not attacking anyone - I geniunely want to know.


— --

Also, that explosion in the last panel is sick!

It's because we already know Freeza can survive otherwise fatal wounds, like when he gets cut in half on Namek, or floats around after Namek explodes on top of him. He's still alive when Cold finds him. But after that there's also the RoF movie where they wish him back, and even the chunks Trunks cut up are still alive. So you combine that with Namek regeneration and you get what Cell can do.


mx1mum was saying: AnyEdge was saying: Damian Qualshy was saying: Okay how is he supposed to regenerate from that? He got completely vaporized. It's not even the same as Goku's Instant Transmission Kamehameha where half of Cell was left.
Unless another Cell shows up lol.

Mustard was saying: MajinPower was saying: That’s when Kulilin goes back thinking Gast won. Cell regenerates, kills Kulilin and Gohan and Gast kills him.
I'm gonna be upset if that happens. Again, the only reason Cell was able to survive with just one cell was Freeza's DNA. This Cell should be limited to Namekian healing abilities.
HOW did you all people came to that conclusion? Freeza nor Cold can't heal on their own.

That's what I want to know! I'm reading through these comments, and I'm surprised what people are saying about Frost Demons. Granted, it's been many years since I read the manga, but I don't remember anything about Frost Demons being able to survive "in chunks", or anything like that. I do, however, remember Freiza telling Goku that Frost Demons can survive in space - but nothing about them being able to survive in pieces.

That being said, I'm really curious to know where those making these claims are getting them from? Not attacking anyone - I geniunely want to know.


— --

Also, that explosion in the last panel is sick!

Frieza survived Namek’s explosion missing a chunk of his head and face, an arm, and his lower half.

It’s also revealed in DBS that Frieza can even survive being cut up into pieces.

When his henchmen bring him back to life with the Dragon Balls he’s brought back in the same condition as he was before trunks blasted him.Despite being revived as a bunch of chunks he was still alive and able to be put back together.


Just going to respond to everyone at once...

I don't think Frieza living for a while after being fatally injured had anything to do with his physiology or species. DBZ has always been about power, and power levels. Power allows characters to frequently do absolutely absurd things that otherwise shouldn't be possible.

As far as denying death, let's look at some examples:

1) Yamcha had a whole arm go through his body. Didn't immediately die.

2) Piccolo had a hole blasted through his body (and I'm pretty sure Cell broke his neck as well), AND he was thrown into the water. Didn't immediately die. In fact, he lasted way longer than he should have.

3) Goku was pushed so far down into magma on Namek, that Frieza was sure Goku would be dead. Even Gohan thought he was dead. Not only did Goku not die, the magma didn't even harm him.


As far as anything from DBS is concerned, am I remembering incorrectly, or did Salagir already say that nothing from DBS would be used/considered for DBM? That's important, because being able to survive in pieces was not something that was explicitly established for the Frost Demons in DBZ.

On the topic of Namek, Frieza was on the verge of death after getting sliced in half by his own disk. Goku gave Frieza some of his own energy, which allowed Frieza to move around. If I remember correctly, Goku even acknowledged that the energy he gave him would only "...buy [Frieza] a little more time...", and that he (Frieza) should use the time he has left to reflect on his actions - suggesting that Frieza was indeed going to die. I firmly believe that Frieza would have died had Goku not shared his energy with him.

On the topic of being killed by Trunks. I chalk that up to a long-running meme in anime and martial films. Trunks came in, sliced Frieza up so fast, that Frieza didn't even know what was going on - then immediately blew him up. The whole "delay of death after being quickly sliced" has been used in martial arts medium for literal decades. That's not indicative of Frieza, or Frost Demons, being special little survivors.

Heck, even DBZ Broly was stabbed, and still had enough power to protect himself, and his father, through space as an infant. It's non-canon, so I can't really count it in this list, but that's kind of the whole theme of the DBZ side of DB.

So, that's what I think. I'm curious to know what anyone else thinks about this.

Oh, and thank you to everyone who responded.

All that still doesn't explain anything. Piccolo also can survive anything, as long as his head stays alive. Has everyone forget that?

Super Gojita 3 was saying: ok. now what?

does he come back as a ghost to terrorize the universe? or even a zombie some how? spooking 1 guy on earth hardly qualifies as "terrorizing the universe".

maybe the wording used indicates "potential universe threat" unless he regenerates from his core...which seems to be completely eradicated.
On page 32 it only says Cell was "threatening the universe", which he was. Was there another reference to this Cell that says "terrorizing the universe" that I'm not aware of?

Mr. "Total Control of his Emotions" right there.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: Teleported_Bread was saying: 仅是剑客 was saying: Teleported_Bread was saying: Didn't og DB say skill and strong will overcome power?
Like Mafuba always fails against opponents who are stronger than their user.
Tien and Jackie Chen had much more tricks than kid Goku but still almost lose to kid Goku. And they are completely outclassed by Goku and Piccolo in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budōkai.
Perfect Cell had much more skills and trick, but still lost to kid Gohan.

I mean... there are countless examples.
The Mafuba doesn't fail if your opponent is stronger; in fact it was made for a superior opponent (Master Mutaito made it to seal Piccolo Daimao). The reason it'd ever fail in the past is when the demon seal item gets removed or destroyed, the talisman is missing or because the deadly strain of the technique when having a low-enough power level might affect the user's focus - causing them to miss.


Yeah pretty much.

In dbm, it worked on zenbuu. He had made copies of himself so it didnt beat him but the point still stands.

The technique works unless you miss or its reversed ala mafuuba gaeshi or however its spelled
Yeah pretty much. Though I didn't mention the Reverse Mafuba cause that is technically a success if it still snatches somebody up and locks them in a seal

仅是剑客 was saying: Teleported_Bread was saying: Didn't og DB say skill and strong will overcome power?
Like Mafuba always fails against opponents who are stronger than their user.
Tien and Jackie Chen had much more tricks than kid Goku but still almost lose to kid Goku. And they are completely outclassed by Goku and Piccolo in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budōkai.
Perfect Cell had much more skills and trick, but still lost to kid Gohan.

I mean... there are countless examples.
The Mafuba doesn't fail if your opponent is stronger; in fact it was made for a superior opponent (Master Mutaito made it to seal Piccolo Daimao). The reason it'd ever fail in the past is when the demon seal item gets removed or destroyed, the talisman is missing or because the deadly strain of the technique when having a low-enough power level might affect the user's focus - causing them to miss.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: siksteen was saying: Would be great to have Goku meeting his grandpa, such wasted potential for Buu arc or even the Other world tournment filler arc.

while its filler in db, goku did meet grandpa gohan in the lead up to dbz, as gohan was working with the antagonist anine.

Shes not a villain per se, but she can't give goku what he wants. adventure ensues

Huh? But he met Grandpa Gohan during his second run of getting the dragon balls, what do you mean? It was at the Baba's palace too.
I know about the filler at the end, but wasn't Baba portion canon?