Super Gojita 3 was saying: Joey21 was saying: Super Gojita 3 was saying: for people arguing over the "vegeta growth" and "you're number 1!" thing. the only thing I could suggest is that in a multiverse with unlimited possibilities, this u16 vegetto was made with a vegeta who was 99% there, and the "you're numbah 1!" thing was the straw that broke the camels back sort of thing. that 1 last push that made vegeta a good guy and completed his push as a babyface from heel and tweener.

and well, maybe in another universe with a vegetto who didn't get that "numbah 1!" that vegetto might not have needed it, but this vegetto here did require that to be a out and out good hearted person.

in a manga dealing with the infinite, there had to be a universe where vegetto wasn't pure of heart and corrupted by that tiny grain of negative thought from vegeta. and this vegetto is it.

This is a kind olive branch to the authors, but we’re forgetting he already saccd himself against Buu for everyone, and the events in that U were pretty similar. The Majin arc was symbolically the act of expunging this evil aspect from himself. Numbah 1 felt more like a cherry on the cake. Vegetto’s turmoil seems to be unique in a way (which I really like), but my spam contention everywhere above on the page still stands.

thats kinda my point. the u16 vegetto lacked that "cherry on top" which was the straw that broke the evil camels back, and was all vegetto needed to be pure of heart.

in any case, the potara has also the side effect of merging the 2 warriors psyches together, and that can have a instability side effect. it was never intended for mortals, just the gods. as such, vegetto might not have been all good even with 20 plus years. vegetto lasting as long as he did without much issue, aside from being short tempered, which lets be honest was kind of vegetas thing anyway, he's done alright.

perhaps in u16.1 vegetto turned out fine without that "numbah 1" moment. this vegetto was the one who did not.

lets also not forget vegeta was po'd after sacrificing himself against buu who by his own admission "did so on a lie". he outright tells goku he hates him

https://m...-ac348de44ee6/9

he had a lot of pent of anger and frustration at the tie he was made, so vegetto never resolved that.

then theres the whole "holding back as a ssj3" thing

https://m...ac348de44ee6/10

and well, it isn't like he had a lot of time in the manga to think about it either. it was fuse or die with goku baiting him and guilting him emotionally, with the whole "bulma and trunks are dead" thing. which, was true regardless of intent.

a lot of things to unpack here really. vegeta fused with a lot of hate and frustration here that went unresolved., regardless of his face turn and other such things when he sacc'd himself, which was undone when he saw ssj3 and other things were brought to light.

These are all good and fair points, and they could work, but it’s personally not enough for me. I just feel he had to have some sort of atonement within himself to initially sacrifice himself. It downplays much of Vegetas arc. From the get go Vegetto has had his own personality.Playful yet braggart. A solid blend of G/V. The potara madness — or just sheer madness at a mortal being too strong for being mortal — sits better with me, and feels like it gives Vegetto his own unique flaw, rather than playing on Vegetas.

In regards to the ‘fuse with me or bulma dies’, that could work very well if the Vegeta part was wanting to break away from the fusion out of resentment/pride, but Vegetto is wrestling with what looks like pure unmanaged bloodlust. Feels like a Broly issue, but more conscious— which is even worse.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: for people arguing over the "vegeta growth" and "you're number 1!" thing. the only thing I could suggest is that in a multiverse with unlimited possibilities, this u16 vegetto was made with a vegeta who was 99% there, and the "you're numbah 1!" thing was the straw that broke the camels back sort of thing. that 1 last push that made vegeta a good guy and completed his push as a babyface from heel and tweener.

and well, maybe in another universe with a vegetto who didn't get that "numbah 1!" that vegetto might not have needed it, but this vegetto here did require that to be a out and out good hearted person.

in a manga dealing with the infinite, there had to be a universe where vegetto wasn't pure of heart and corrupted by that tiny grain of negative thought from vegeta. and this vegetto is it.

This is a kind olive branch to the authors, but we’re forgetting he already saccd himself against Buu for everyone, and the events in that U were pretty similar. The Majin arc was symbolically the act of expunging this evil aspect from himself. Numbah 1 felt more like a cherry on the cake. Vegetto’s turmoil seems to be unique in a way (which I really like), but my spam contention everywhere above on the page still stands.

Definitely seems like Old Kai is trying to rile Vegetto up into acting. He knows that his ego is fragile and he's been upset about his loss this whole time. He's going to push him into stopping XXI.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: xxi said he was going to eat gast, but simply didn't, even if his intent was to do so.Friendly reminder that page 2444 and page 2446 had show that U5 XXI actually ate all of Gast's skin and clothes after Gast had already forfeited and even mocked Gast about it when U5 XXI said "Alas... If only the organisers could hear you...!".

ZenBuu was saying: only beings from U1 can operate the multiverse travel technology (for whatever reason)If U4 Zen Buu's magic cannot remove that restriction despite his magic being more powerful than the Eternal Dragons's magic, then U5 XXI could not use a wish granted by an Eternal Dragon/Dragon Balls set to remove that restriction either, which is something that U5 XXI probably would/should/ought to know considering that he actually has experience using Dragon Balls to get wishes. Thus I wonder what is U5 XXI going to wish for then.

I think that maybe U5 XXI would probably use the Dragon Balls to wish to resurrect/summon his own Universe 1 counterpart to help him travel the multiverse.

jonathan_vik was saying: Anyway, Elder Kai is confirming that Goku could, in fact, get much stronger. On an earlier page, Vegito also feared Goku getting stronger than him. I wonder what this is hinting towards.I think that maybe this is hinting towards at least one of the following:
— U16 Vegetto was show to have fast energy consumption issues that U18 Goku and U18 Vegeta do not have, probably because U16 Vegetto is half-dead/half-alive, because U16 Vegetto is a Ghost/Double Saiyan Hybrid, because U16 Vegetto is the potara fusion of U16 Vegeta's Ghost and U16 Goku.

— Unlike what Akira Toriyama said about Half-Human/Half-Saiyan Hybrids being stronger if they lack tails, full blooded Saiyans are actually stronger if they have tails, thus U18 Goku and U18 Vegeta could only reach their true full potential if they have tails or they transform into their hypothetical ssj0 Oozaru forms or Elder Kai gives them the mystic power up.

— U18 Goku could get stronger than his current powerlevel if U18 Goku gets the same majinization boost that U18 Vegeta got during the Buu Saga. U18 Goku could use the Dragon Balls to wish to regain his own U18 Kakarot's memories, which would at least temporarily make U18 Goku "evil" enough to make it possible to majinize U18 Goku to give U18 Goku the same majinization boost that U18 Vegeta got during the Buu Saga. As for who could give U18 Goku the majinization boost after U18 Babidi died, U18 Goku could use the Dragon Balls to wish to get the majinization boost.

— Salagir mentioned the SSJ999999 form in a comment on the 186th page of DBM. Of course there is a chance that SSJ999999 could actually be the official name for U18 Goku and U18 Vegeta's ssj0 forms.

— Maybe U18 Goku and U18 Vegeta could unlock their own lssj forms either naturally or via using the Dragon Balls to wish for unlocking their own lssj forms. It certainly helps that Chibi Son Bra did her best! showed us that U2 Mary Sue had actually unlocked her own Legendary Super Saiyan form (her lssj form has light green hair and is more muscular than her base form is) at some point, thus confirming that on DBM not only is it possible for there to be more than one lssj in a shorter than 1000 years timespan but also that Broly, Romanesco and Brasca are not the only lssjs on DBM.

— The Super Saiyan 4 transformation was made part of Dragon Ball canon continuity by Dragon Ball Daima. Heck, I would not be surprised if I turns out that U2 Mary Sue is a Super Saiyan 4 (who had already shaved her own fur) considering that she has her own tail all the time 24/7 but she never transforms into an Oozaru.

Super Gojita 3 was saying:
He is just standing there menacingly.

but I digress, he is acting assertive by saying "I'll keep an eye on him"

in any case, I look forward to old kai recruiting vegetto, and then xxi turns the tables by recruiting vegetto himself. that'd be neat.

vegetto has been somewhat unstable, with him wanting to murder his son over trifling things, so It might not take much other than xxi going "If I win, you can have as many fights as you want. and I'll devour universes with evil weaklings that won't amount to much. deal?" and vegetto begrudgingly accepts, as he is a battle maniac.

I am, exaggerating many of the qualities of vegetto here, so take what I post here with a grain of salt, and please refrain from being salty. kthnx
Yeye, it's in character for Gast to keep to himself, I've got nothing against that. I was just bringing it up to point out that "Looking down and leaning on a wall" doesn't indicate him being depressed

happywarrior99 was saying: On page 2484 Gast is actually show depressed looking down at the ground sad. Did U5 XXI actually do something to Gast's soul and/or mind? It is out of character for Gast to outwardly show depression/sadness/angst.
I'm pretty sure he's just standing there menacingly, as he's been doing in most pages where he's been shown

happywarrior99 was saying: Even if that was the case DBM has still not explained yet why Gast is depressed on page 2484
He's not depressed, and what do you mean they have "still not explained yet why Gast is depressed"? This was literally the last panel on the most recent page. They're not gonna release an entire minicomic alongside it to explain the nuances of Gast's facial expression. If it's important, they'll explain it soon

Both I and several other users on this site have called it when we said that U18 Goku cannot defeat U5 XXI.

Gast saw U5 XXI intentionally breaking the rules/cheating when U5 XXI intentionally attacked Gast (and also intentionally ate all of Gast's skin and clothes) after Gast surrendered.

siksteen was saying: Gast is being kinda sus since after the end of his fight.........I concur. On page 2484 Gast is actually show depressed looking down at the ground sad. Did U5 XXI actually do something to Gast's soul and/or mind? It is out of character for Gast to outwardly show depression/sadness/angst.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: But these things happen in all form of media, especially Dragon Ball, where characters act out of character in order to push the plot forward to a certain point.Even if that was the case DBM has still not explained yet why Gast is depressed on page 2484. Gast being depressed is suspicious unless the reason for his depression is because he was not granted his wish.

Dantas1996 was saying: XXI continues to attack Gast even after he surrenders, according to the rules that Gast cited he should be disqualified MATTIA IL DIVINO was saying: Dantas1996 was saying: XXI continues to attack Gast even after he surrenders, according to the rules that Gast cited he should be disqualified
Just thought the same, either the authors forgot or Gast turned so dumb to ignore such a fact.Maybe XXI literally stopped attacking Gast when the U1 Namekian decided the fight was over. And all of the injuries that Gast suffered in the end literally occurred before Gast uttered the words, “I forfeit!”.


SSJMoltenbud was saying: As everyone else says, Gast could have told the organisers that XXI was intending on knowingly killing and consuming him after he had forfeited. Maybe because he was unable to finish the job, due to the Namekian in the control centre and their stupid strange hearing abilities, he technically didn't kill his opponent after forfeiture, loopholing him into the clear despite intent. I wonder if the Namekian heard XXI's words too, or was it at least in part Namekian telepathy.It is indeed strange behavior from Gast since his fight. And considering how he was acting on page 1985, immediately interfering in the events, he was almost out of character here. I suspect there must be something behind this, perhaps another subplot that will only be revealed later.

I wonder, do Frieza's forces have the means of restoring Nappa's arm if they wanted to?

King Kindred was saying: Damian Qualshy was saying: Close enough! It should've been "the upper hand" instead of "high ground hand".

Also, Uncle Nappa is real!

I was just about to comment this. Don't know how this got translated to that.

Vegeta: Huh. They have some interesting techniques.

They got Gohan to sweat, but at least he doesn't seem full of rage here. I wonder if Vegeta and Nappa managed to tame Gohan's rage. I'm sure Vegeta wouldn't have wanted him to grow stronger than him through anger.
We had "problems" with this page in Spanish, since we translate from English to Spanish.

In the end we used the original in French as a reference and made an adaptation that's really closer to the "the upper hand" but makes the scene funnier, I wasn't aware that this actually happened in English and thought it was just a weird choice of words.

In the end we actually adapted it to "It seems like you don't have an ace up your sleeve" since Nappa literally cannot have it now, it's better that way.

mAc Chaos was saying: EVA-03 was saying: Jblaze94 was saying: I guess in this universe vegeta didn't feel like warning nappa about the kienzan. Not sure how the saiyans didn't improve over 10 years. Earthlings with no special training should be able to keep up with them.
I think the saiyans (and the frostdemon empire at large) don't have a concept of training like the earthlings have. They know only two ways to get stronger: via Oozaru or via a near-death expirience from a zenkai. Our Vegeta only begun to train after he saw the difference by Goku from his encounter on earth to the beatdown he gave to the Ginyu-Force.
Vegeta in fact thought training was BENEATH HIM, telling Goku that hard work was for peasants. He only changed his tune after he got whupped. It's weird though since he does still practice in the Bardock special... so maybe it's different somehow.

Plus they have techniques, which means they were practicing developing them somehow.

Uhm, no he didn't
On Namek he (and Frieza) made it clear Vegeta had been training and getting stronger, Vegeta even mocks Cui over the fact that he hadn't trained or gotten stronger.

The "mocking" he did with Goku was claiming the gap between an elite and low class could never be overcome with hard work

Issue is the saiyan version of training is simply going from battle to battle, which they now have several additional years of doing, meaning they should all be stronger

Rudeman was saying: Color in 4th panel makes it even more drastic.

As I think about it, Cell could just leave weaker Cell Jr inside his room. Vargas are not allowed to enter personal chambers without permission, so they wouldn't know about the junior-switch.

Would the other one even need to hide, Cell could just show up with a bunch of them and say the strongest one is the one he registered, it's not like they know which is which

Heck, with how little the Vargas know of them, their techniques and so on he could also just send 7 Jr's into the ring and claim one is the original and the others clones from a technique

https://w...amp;chapter=105

It says here the chapter's title is Recruitment.

So who'll be "recruiting"? XXI? South or Old Kaioshin? All of them?

I'm thinking Cell and Gast are pretty close in power, leaning one way or the other slightly. I think Cell will need to make an escape, and he'll power up before their final battle. Perhaps Cell will go on an absorption spree across the Universe, or just Zenkai boost his way.

Also, regarding some comments from a couple of pages back: I think Gast senses familiar energy from Cell because of Cells Namekian DNA.


Loving this Cell design even more with this further reveal! NOW LET THEM FIGHT!


CornBreadtm was saying: Frost demon doesn't matter. It's specifically Freeza's mutant DNA.

But Gohan is also a mutant, so Cell should be just as strong.
Wait a minute. Gohan is a mutant? Frieza I could believe but Gohan is just a Hybrid in DBZ Canon I thought? I also don't remember ever reading anything in DBM that suggested it, but I may be wrong.

Supercellgito was saying: JetMalakai was saying: Dschella was saying: Where is Goku in this universe? Am I missing something?

Died to the heart virus. Gast killed Freeza before the main characters arrived. That means no scrambling around Namek with Vegeta, meaning he never came to Earth, meaning Trunks was never born. So no one to go back in time to save Goku.

That actually doesn't make sense. Goku got the heart Virus during his stay on that Planet Yardrat when he escaped from Namek exploding. If Goku never went off to Namek thanks to Gast taking care of Freeza then Goku would have never gotten the opportunity to catch that Heart virus.....UNLESS at some point this was retconned too..
Heart virus isn't a space born illness. It's from earth. Trunks states that a virus that goku will hear about sometime later in their timeline. Goku wasn't patient 0 he was just of the unlucky people to catch it.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: Gunbuster was saying: likenew was saying: noodle84 was saying: Gero wouldn't have fathomed those levels without seeing something outrageous to scale up to.

Gero based all his androids on the power levels he detected in the Saiyan Saga and used whatever formula to guess where Goku might end up in terms of power. His only misjudgement was SSJ.

His androids would still be around #19 in power at least since that's what he considered sufficient to wipe out Goku and Gasts universe Goku didn't get SSJ.



Super Gojita 3 was saying:
I think what he meant was why 2 saiyans and why 2 frost demons, when you only need 1?

cell only needed freeza and gokus dna, and at that point had the saiyan and frost demon dna. having vegeta and kold was redundant, as the saiyan and frost demon dna criteria was met.

but, according to the manga, cell had the host dna's techniques as well, so including more samples, even among the same race, would increase cells move pool.

So, I guess theres that.

He possibly took Vegetas AND Goku because Vegeta turned into an Oozaru which was an unknown event by that point. Likewise, he might have taken Frieza and Kolds DNA because they were two separate forms and he might have considered them different enough to warrant.
The real question is, if DNA also includes techniques and potential, why didn't he take Gohan's or the numerous human fighters who had their own repertoires?
I know the dub, if not the original anime, had Krillin mention that all of the Z fighters DNA was in Cell when they raided the Cell chamber but that's definitely an anime only moment.
Maybe it's some restriction on the computer to take human DNA or maybe Gero didnt consider human or human adjacent fighters a valid source of DNA?

I guess. but the problem being is they didn't take trunks dna despite beign a ssj! cell even says his dna was rejected, due to having saiyan dna already. you'd think an oozaruu while impressive, is nothing to a ssj, and well, it all really boils down to plot.

kold really didn't do anything except die to trunks, and ssj trunks killed freeza easily, and yet he took the dna of 2 jobbers ignoring the guy who sliced through them like nothing.

and yes, I realize goku fought kold and freeza, but apparently this was the account cell told piccolo, citing "ssj trunks could have been collected, but enough saiyan dna was already collected"

So, gero, or rather his computer made a stupid decision not to include ssj dna, regardless. he didn't seem to think "hmm. this guy transformed, and had purple hair originally, and killed the 2 other guys. I should forget those losers and take the purple haired guys dna!"

so while I agree, including kold and freeza was a good idea, the point was that the other guy who cited the dna was redundant because he only needed 1 saiyan and 1 kold clan dna sample made a good point in that regard, but I'd take both saiyan and kold dna samples, simply because they would all have unique techniques.

I would have included ssj dna too, as it was different, but geros cpu didn't take that into account.

>I know the dub, if not the original anime, had Krillin mention that all of the Z fighters DNA was in Cell when they raided the Cell chamber but that's definitely an anime only moment.

definitely not the manga, and the japanese version of the anime does not include other dna samples. not even tien who had liek 3 eyes and some cool techniques never seen before, like growing 4 arms, and other such things. the multi form was anime only for cell, and some how he had that move, despite not having tiens dna.

cells dna in the manga and anime canonically had goku, vegeta, piccolo and the 2 kold clan members. as well as some other things, but no other z fighters or villains.

gero wasn't impressed by the other z warriors, I guess.

Goku used the multiform technique and also the multiple arms technique in DB

likenew was saying: noodle84 was saying: Gero wouldn't have fathomed those levels without seeing something outrageous to scale up to.

Gero based all his androids on the power levels he detected in the Saiyan Saga and used whatever formula to guess where Goku might end up in terms of power. His only misjudgement was SSJ.

His androids would still be around #19 in power at least since that's what he considered sufficient to wipe out Goku and Gasts universe Goku didn't get SSJ.



Super Gojita 3 was saying:
I think what he meant was why 2 saiyans and why 2 frost demons, when you only need 1?

cell only needed freeza and gokus dna, and at that point had the saiyan and frost demon dna. having vegeta and kold was redundant, as the saiyan and frost demon dna criteria was met.

but, according to the manga, cell had the host dna's techniques as well, so including more samples, even among the same race, would increase cells move pool.

So, I guess theres that.

He possibly took Vegetas AND Goku because Vegeta turned into an Oozaru which was an unknown event by that point. Likewise, he might have taken Frieza and Kolds DNA because they were two separate forms and he might have considered them different enough to warrant.
The real question is, if DNA also includes techniques and potential, why didn't he take Gohan's or the numerous human fighters who had their own repertoires?
I know the dub, if not the original anime, had Krillin mention that all of the Z fighters DNA was in Cell when they raided the Cell chamber but that's definitely an anime only moment.
Maybe it's some restriction on the computer to take human DNA or maybe Gero didnt consider human or human adjacent fighters a valid source of DNA?

Stanislao Moulinsky was saying: Gunbuster was saying: Probably equivalent. Nothing says Cell was strong because he had the DNA of fighters.

Then what's the point of having the DNA of Goku AND Vegeta, and Frieza AND King Cold? If the strength of the donor is irrelevant why use more than one sample per race?
Because they impart traits that others don't.
Why take Namekians DNA when Piccolo was so weak by Saiyan standards that he was pointless? Same as Goku. Its about the specific traits they possess rather than the power such as Frieza's sheer endurance, Piccolos regeneration and Saiyan fighting talent and zenkais.
The power of the hosts doesn't matter. It's just to give Cell their traits.

I love the chibi style!

I'm really not sure why so many people here insist this Cell should be weaker due to not having Frost Demon DNA. Firstly, that would imply that any of his DNA actually contributed to his overall power to begin with, not just his capabilities, which is never stated to be the case.

And, considering that Gero made 16, 17, and 18 as strong as they were based ONLY off of what he assumed would be stronger than Goku's power increase trajectory from the SAIYAN saga, there's also no reason to assume he would make Cell weaker in that case. In this universe, Gero ONLY knew Goku was dead after he began his attack.

Before his attack, in the regular universe, Gero had already completed 16, 17, and 18. And I don't think it was said that the attack happened earlier. Given Gohan's appearance in the flashback of that moment, I'd say it was the same as before. So there's no reason to assume he didn't already do so here, but saw no reason to release them with Goku being dead.

Bottom line: is it possible Cell is weaker here? Yes, it is possible. Is it possible he's is weaker because he doesn't have Frost Demon DNA? Yes it is possible. Is it possible he's is no weaker than his original counterpart? Yes, it is possible. Is it possible he's actually stronger? Yes, it iss possible.

We don't know for certain either way yet. And admittedly, there is no "should" or "shouldn't" be when it comes to his power because we don't actually know if DNA had anything to do with the power level, and we don't know what adjustments Gero could've made with being more hands on than he was otherwise.

Let's just wait and see, and accept whatever the result is, because it can work either way and it shouldn't bother anybody :)

SSJ Storm was saying: Piccolo survived being shattered as a statute after after Dabura turned him to stone, no?

SoyBear was saying: I was expecting Cell to look a bit more monstrous without the Freeza DNA; looking back I'm not sure why. This was a pleasant surprise though!

Also, does the power of the Androids Cell absorbs affect their perfect form? Like These were likely energy absorbing models, so they would have been weaker than C17 and C18, but also not had the same energy source. Is this cell going to be weaker due to that?

For that matter, Piccolo can't survive being blown to tiny fragments, but Freeza can. Is this Cell going to be able to survive wide-ranged energy blasts like their doppleganger in other universes?
Piccolo also can't survive his entire top half being blown to bits because bye bye brain, but Cell did, and that likely had nothing to do with Frieza DNA :). Likely just genetic tinkering with Namekian restoritive cells

Andres was saying: Von Durmark was saying: Nah, this wouldn't work due to DBM Broly plot armor. He would just yell very loudly and the spit would die from his maximumest power.
If Carbonite worked, I don't see why this wouldn't.

The universe being destroyed with all the boundaries breaking, leaving behind absolutely nothing (no living realm, no other world, no supreme kai planet, etc) and he still survived. How does carbonite or magic spit compare to that?

Super Gojita 3 was saying: Monster was saying: Super Gojita 3 was saying: SeanPaul2389 was saying: Super Gojita 3 was saying: Paaah was saying: mAc Chaos was saying: At least this means Goku is training at King Kai's right? So he must be tremendously strong by this point.

Doubt he's being allowed to train since he was only allowed to originally because of a favor to Kami (who is dead now too so its unlikely to say the least).

Like others on previous pages have said there's no Goku resurrection because no ones going to Namek and Kamis dead so Earth has no dragon balls.

I was under the impression he was going to be allowed anyway, and the threat was a bit of additional commentary by kami, but that could just be the dub. I dunno. I'll check.

(3 miniutes later)



so he was allowed to go to heaven no issue.

https://m...-a7f04afea90f/7

but theres also the issue of piccolo and co. going to kaios despite no perceived imminent threat. they were just allowed to go there, no questions asked.

freeza wasn't even discussed yet, and kaio would have rejected them if they walked in there saying "we're here to beat up the ginyus and freeza!"

so I'd say goku would be given that training, if it was offered.

so, was it? thats then up to goten kun, who decides that in this particular comic.

seeign as kami would hang out in either heaven or the check out station, like he did in canon when he was killed, I could see him maybe pulling some strings as a favor to goku from their business before, before going to heaven himself.

it would be kinda for nothing, with no db's, they don't know about namek, and unless kami finds out about his heritage in heaven, they have no leads.

So kaio samas training wouldn't lead to goku doing anything here even if he did get it.

They could pull the "One Day alive pass" He got during the Buu saga, there's a number of ways for him to get that info in heaven. It just depends on what direction the author wants. Like if they want to involve Goku or not, the beginning cover makes me think it's going in the direction of not including Goku at all in this comic.

I don't think that would work. if goten uses the logic of sal, they can't do a 1 day pass for revenge. bojack was allowed to run free, because he wasn't a threat like buu or even cell.

so getting revenge on radditz wouldn't work, and I doubt goku would be smart enough to lawyer this out to somehow include seeing his son gohan or some shit.

probably a lost cause there.

and kami...well, he made enma mad in canon just by speaking to him, makign bad conversation choices. so I doubt he could do any better. he barely got the trainign for kaio, and I would feel this is a bit more egregious as it involves the dead going to the mortal realm to attack people who aren't universal threats as opposed to just a dead guy going to kaios.

>the beginning cover makes me think it's going in the direction of not including Goku at all in this comic.

probably. hes dead, and most options are either unavailable, or unknown. or excluded for the reasons I posted above.

I am fairly confident King Kai knows about Namek and the Dragonballs.

Sure, but he wouldn't exactly tell him unless asked. and goten said no one knows about namek here, so they don't go because they don't know kami is a namekian in the first place.

And its been 10 years. I doubt they go there, at least for now.


Royaken was saying: Super Gojita 3 was saying: Royaken was saying: Super Gojita 3 was saying: I don't think that would work. if goten uses the logic of sal, they can't do a 1 day pass for revenge. bojack was allowed to run free, because he wasn't a threat like buu or even cell.

so getting revenge on radditz wouldn't work, and I doubt goku would be smart enough to lawyer this out to somehow include seeing his son gohan or some shit.

probably a lost cause there.

Goku was allowed to come to earth for one day because of a tournament he wanted to participate in and to see his family, it had nothing to do with the imminent threat of Buu, so I don't see why he couldn't have been allowed to do it this time even before Nasu came. But Goku is still pretty smart, I could easily see him asking to come down to talk to his son since he likely believes there's good in him and to make sure he's ok and on the straight and narrow.

Ah, theres a difference between going to a fun budokai and getting revenge on the saiyans who killed him.

this was the scenaerio in the bojack special, and well, goten may or may not agree with this logic.

seeing as the saiyans aren't a threat like buu, and the intent would be revenge, I doubt he would get that one day.

maybe he will, but I don't think rescuing gohan is a legit thing he could argue for either.

how many villains killed a guy only for them to come back on earth? in db? so far none.

same goes for kidnappers. its been quite a few years now, and goku hasn't shown up yet.

goku only needed 8 months to beat vegeta in base, what was he waiting for? a written invitation?

No no, I'm not saying revenge. I specifically did not say revenge, xD. Besides revenge isn't usually in Goku's head. It was against Frieza when he went super saiyan, but even after a while he chilled out.

I'm not arguing for revenge, simply that that has never really been Goku's motivations (if you can name an instance aside from Frieza, let me know, truly).
In fact, while it wasn't allowed by the Kais even in the bojack movie, Goku still managed to IT to Gohan not to kill Bojack himself for hurting Gohan, but to get gohan free so he had a second to breath and give him a pep talk so he could beat him. When in fact, if Goku was able to make physical contact with Bojack for even a split second, he could've just as easily charged a full power Kamehameha in otherworld, ITd to Bojack's face and obliterated him. But that's not Goku's style.

So in this case, I could easily see Goku asking to go back temporarily to speak with Gohan. Just that. Talk to him. Not revenge. You know? That's more Goku's style for sure. And if they allowed Goku to go back to Earth for one day simply because he wanted to participate in a tournament (because he had some "credit" as said the English dub xD), then I don't know why they would tell him he can't use his credit to go talk to his son which is more important than a budokai. You know?

Also side note, was it even up to the kais to begin with? I thought it was Baba's doing, like she did with grandpa Gohan way back when. And even that was mostly just for Grandpa Gohan to help Goku, so why not for Goku to help talk with Gohan? Just spit valling xD.

Anyway, all that being said, this is Gotens story and he always does a bang up job. Not saying that if he doesn't do this it is a missed opportunity or anything, Goten doesn't miss a beat in what he does with his stories. Just saying it wouldn't be an illogical or out of DBZ canon situation since it wouldn't be about revenge, it would be about his son :).

Good chat though! Love these friendly debates :)

I am arguing it would be for revenge.

revenge for kidnapping gohan? killing him?

and I don't think the 1 day pass qualifies for saving people either, as its shown to be used for non important family bonding.

and we later see its been 10 years.

where was goku in that time?

I guess he didn't qualify for it under the exact specifications, and seeing as vegeta isn't a buu level threat, he couldn't use it to alter universal events.

Goku even said as much as a dead person he shouldn't be meddling in the affairs of the living.

https://m...fe38cb2c797a/11

and vegetas not a buu level threat, and he didn't participate when buu was a buu level threat.

Like I said, theres a difference betweena fun budokai and altering the fate of someone who antagonized you, even if you don't count it as revenge, what do you think would be the case if the saiyans refused?

would they just roll over and let him take gohan back?

no of course not, so he'd have to alter the fate of the universe on a personal grudge being the motivation, vs a day at the budokai.

the difference being the fate of the budokai is altered, and this is only the most minor deviation being the motivation. they didn't know buu and babadi would be invovlved.

Here, they know full well what the grand implications are. its going to be murder because vegeta and maybe even freeza won't let this go.

here, the fates of the saiyans are changed by killing them, and the fate of the freeza force as well.

thats the difference.

@goku punching bojack

you might have misinterpretted that scene.

goku didn't use his 1 day pass to rescue gohan or defeat bojack.

he used shunakido to break the rules and intervene on the mortal realm.

and goku didn't rescue gohan so much as he inspired him to save himself.

goku doesn't have shunkaido in this story so he can't intervene on his own.

so...what about kaio?

certainly he can talk to gohan that way?

well, he didn't.

so I guess goku is a non factor...for now.

this story seems to be about an evil gohan, not a "lets take 10 years to save gohan when he becomes evil"

Definitely don't disagree that the story is about an "evil gohan" and not a "let's take 10 years to save Gohan when he becomes evil" lol.

But I do disagree that it would be revenge. Why does Goku have to want to come back to be there for his son out of revenge? Why can't he just want to come back to be there for Gohan at his most vulnerable? This is all ofc hypothetically speaking. But as Gotens story progresses, it's certainly possible we'll see Gohan struggle with his role as Nasu and the vague memories he has of home.

It's certainly possible that Goku could want to come at that time and be there for him to help him make the right decisions. Saying that it 100% has anything to do with revenge no matter what isn't accurate and it's kinda just forcing that situation on it. There's been very very few instances where revenge was even on Goku's mind. Goku is more about saving than he is about revenge. If there's a chance that, now with Gohan back on earth, he can help him to know who he is or help him make a good decision, it definitely seems like something Goku would do.

I understand all of the things you typed and the points you made, but they mostly only hold up if revenge was the reason Goku wanted to come back when Gohan returned to talk to him when that's never really been Goku's MO. To 100% say that, no matter what, his motivation would be revenge is just not accurate. It can certainly be an opinion, but it's not fact. Ofc, what I'm saying his motivation would be isn't fact either, simply another opinion and speculation based on Goku's character and "revenge" just doesn't scream "Goku" xD.

Anyway, thanks again for the debate :).

PS. It's also entirely possible that this is all null and void regardless anyway because Goku may not have been allowed to keep his body this time around, lol.

FitMarshmellow was saying: I wanted to stop by and show my appreciation for Goten-Kun as a creator. Each of his stories, from Namekseijin Densetsu, to 321Y, and now Saigo no Son have all been really solid and creative reads that capture a lot of what I like about Dragon Ball, without feeling like a pale imitation and creating its own unique identity. I love that there seems to be a full capture of the vision of Dragon Ball, rather than just the mid to late Z version of DB that the fandom seems to be stuck on.

And his constant dedication to improving his art has been a joy to witness and I hope he never stops creating these. Much love.
I am really touched by your message. Thank you very much!!

Super Gojita 3 was saying: SeanPaul2389 was saying: Super Gojita 3 was saying: Paaah was saying: mAc Chaos was saying: At least this means Goku is training at King Kai's right? So he must be tremendously strong by this point.

Doubt he's being allowed to train since he was only allowed to originally because of a favor to Kami (who is dead now too so its unlikely to say the least).

Like others on previous pages have said there's no Goku resurrection because no ones going to Namek and Kamis dead so Earth has no dragon balls.

I was under the impression he was going to be allowed anyway, and the threat was a bit of additional commentary by kami, but that could just be the dub. I dunno. I'll check.

(3 miniutes later)



so he was allowed to go to heaven no issue.

https://m...-a7f04afea90f/7

but theres also the issue of piccolo and co. going to kaios despite no perceived imminent threat. they were just allowed to go there, no questions asked.

freeza wasn't even discussed yet, and kaio would have rejected them if they walked in there saying "we're here to beat up the ginyus and freeza!"

so I'd say goku would be given that training, if it was offered.

so, was it? thats then up to goten kun, who decides that in this particular comic.

seeign as kami would hang out in either heaven or the check out station, like he did in canon when he was killed, I could see him maybe pulling some strings as a favor to goku from their business before, before going to heaven himself.

it would be kinda for nothing, with no db's, they don't know about namek, and unless kami finds out about his heritage in heaven, they have no leads.

So kaio samas training wouldn't lead to goku doing anything here even if he did get it.

They could pull the "One Day alive pass" He got during the Buu saga, there's a number of ways for him to get that info in heaven. It just depends on what direction the author wants. Like if they want to involve Goku or not, the beginning cover makes me think it's going in the direction of not including Goku at all in this comic.

I don't think that would work. if goten uses the logic of sal, they can't do a 1 day pass for revenge. bojack was allowed to run free, because he wasn't a threat like buu or even cell.

so getting revenge on radditz wouldn't work, and I doubt goku would be smart enough to lawyer this out to somehow include seeing his son gohan or some shit.

probably a lost cause there.

and kami...well, he made enma mad in canon just by speaking to him, makign bad conversation choices. so I doubt he could do any better. he barely got the trainign for kaio, and I would feel this is a bit more egregious as it involves the dead going to the mortal realm to attack people who aren't universal threats as opposed to just a dead guy going to kaios.

>the beginning cover makes me think it's going in the direction of not including Goku at all in this comic.

probably. hes dead, and most options are either unavailable, or unknown. or excluded for the reasons I posted above.

I am fairly confident King Kai knows about Namek and the Dragonballs.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: Royaken was saying: Super Gojita 3 was saying: I don't think that would work. if goten uses the logic of sal, they can't do a 1 day pass for revenge. bojack was allowed to run free, because he wasn't a threat like buu or even cell.

so getting revenge on radditz wouldn't work, and I doubt goku would be smart enough to lawyer this out to somehow include seeing his son gohan or some shit.

probably a lost cause there.

Goku was allowed to come to earth for one day because of a tournament he wanted to participate in and to see his family, it had nothing to do with the imminent threat of Buu, so I don't see why he couldn't have been allowed to do it this time even before Nasu came. But Goku is still pretty smart, I could easily see him asking to come down to talk to his son since he likely believes there's good in him and to make sure he's ok and on the straight and narrow.

Ah, theres a difference between going to a fun budokai and getting revenge on the saiyans who killed him.

this was the scenaerio in the bojack special, and well, goten may or may not agree with this logic.

seeing as the saiyans aren't a threat like buu, and the intent would be revenge, I doubt he would get that one day.

maybe he will, but I don't think rescuing gohan is a legit thing he could argue for either.

how many villains killed a guy only for them to come back on earth? in db? so far none.

same goes for kidnappers. its been quite a few years now, and goku hasn't shown up yet.

goku only needed 8 months to beat vegeta in base, what was he waiting for? a written invitation?

No no, I'm not saying revenge. I specifically did not say revenge, xD. Besides revenge isn't usually in Goku's head. It was against Frieza when he went super saiyan, but even after a while he chilled out.

I'm not arguing for revenge, simply that that has never really been Goku's motivations (if you can name an instance aside from Frieza, let me know, truly).
In fact, while it wasn't allowed by the Kais even in the bojack movie, Goku still managed to IT to Gohan not to kill Bojack himself for hurting Gohan, but to get gohan free so he had a second to breath and give him a pep talk so he could beat him. When in fact, if Goku was able to make physical contact with Bojack for even a split second, he could've just as easily charged a full power Kamehameha in otherworld, ITd to Bojack's face and obliterated him. But that's not Goku's style.

So in this case, I could easily see Goku asking to go back temporarily to speak with Gohan. Just that. Talk to him. Not revenge. You know? That's more Goku's style for sure. And if they allowed Goku to go back to Earth for one day simply because he wanted to participate in a tournament (because he had some "credit" as said the English dub xD), then I don't know why they would tell him he can't use his credit to go talk to his son which is more important than a budokai. You know?

Also side note, was it even up to the kais to begin with? I thought it was Baba's doing, like she did with grandpa Gohan way back when. And even that was mostly just for Grandpa Gohan to help Goku, so why not for Goku to help talk with Gohan? Just spit valling xD.

Anyway, all that being said, this is Gotens story and he always does a bang up job. Not saying that if he doesn't do this it is a missed opportunity or anything, Goten doesn't miss a beat in what he does with his stories. Just saying it wouldn't be an illogical or out of DBZ canon situation since it wouldn't be about revenge, it would be about his son :).

Good chat though! Love these friendly debates :)

Super Gojita 3 was saying: I don't think that would work. if goten uses the logic of sal, they can't do a 1 day pass for revenge. bojack was allowed to run free, because he wasn't a threat like buu or even cell.

so getting revenge on radditz wouldn't work, and I doubt goku would be smart enough to lawyer this out to somehow include seeing his son gohan or some shit.

probably a lost cause there.

Goku was allowed to come to earth for one day because of a tournament he wanted to participate in and to see his family, it had nothing to do with the imminent threat of Buu, so I don't see why he couldn't have been allowed to do it this time even before Nasu came. But Goku is still pretty smart, I could easily see him asking to come down to talk to his son since he likely believes there's good in him and to make sure he's ok and on the straight and narrow.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: Paaah was saying: mAc Chaos was saying: At least this means Goku is training at King Kai's right? So he must be tremendously strong by this point.

Doubt he's being allowed to train since he was only allowed to originally because of a favor to Kami (who is dead now too so its unlikely to say the least).

Like others on previous pages have said there's no Goku resurrection because no ones going to Namek and Kamis dead so Earth has no dragon balls.

I was under the impression he was going to be allowed anyway, and the threat was a bit of additional commentary by kami, but that could just be the dub. I dunno. I'll check.

(3 miniutes later)

so he was allowed to go to heaven no issue.

https://m...-a7f04afea90f/7

but theres also the issue of piccolo and co. going to kaios despite no perceived imminent threat. they were just allowed to go there, no questions asked.

freeza wasn't even discussed yet, and kaio would have rejected them if they walked in there saying "we're here to beat up the ginyus and freeza!"

so I'd say goku would be given that training, if it was offered.

so, was it? thats then up to goten kun, who decides that in this particular comic.

seeign as kami would hang out in either heaven or the check out station, like he did in canon when he was killed, I could see him maybe pulling some strings as a favor to goku from their business before, before going to heaven himself.

it would be kinda for nothing, with no db's, they don't know about namek, and unless kami finds out about his heritage in heaven, they have no leads.

So kaio samas training wouldn't lead to goku doing anything here even if he did get it.

They could pull the "One Day alive pass" He got during the Buu saga, there's a number of ways for him to get that info in heaven. It just depends on what direction the author wants. Like if they want to involve Goku or not, the beginning cover makes me think it's going in the direction of not including Goku at all in this comic.

Hyperblade was saying: shirubihime was saying: Isn't Zamasu immortal and that's why their universe was erased to begin with? Like, it makes no sense to try to defeat an immortal being...
This Trunks knows the Mafuuba.
He knew it in the original show as well, but no seal. And they don't have it here either.

mAc Chaos was saying: At least this means Goku is training at King Kai's right? So he must be tremendously strong by this point.

Doubt he's being allowed to train since he was only allowed to originally because of a favor to Kami (who is dead now too so its unlikely to say the least).

Like others on previous pages have said there's no Goku resurrection because no ones going to Namek and Kamis dead so Earth has no dragon balls.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: DrewSaga was saying: Problem is how Trunks deals with an immortal.

I don't know if this mirrors the anime 100%, but in addition to ssj rage shown here, the anime had trunks use the mafuuba.

if he gets a seal from roshi, or somewhere, he can seal zamasu like he did before, but better.

Mafuba is terrible temporary solution and I don't know why super even brought it up

Unlike piccolo who can die of old age, zamasu is immortal

He will live forever, and forever is a long time. Who knows like 5 million years from now that jar will erode, and zamasu will be freed. And there will be no z warriors to stop him

Problem is how Trunks deals with an immortal.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: Shabby was saying: Super Gojita 3 was saying: so...the gang made things worse by doing something?

never mind the idea of just letting brolly burn through his life force with lssj, they had like what...10-15 years of mayhem?

just let him run his course and then use porunge and moori who are sitting in otherworld alive and waiting for brolly to die, they summon porunga when he is dead and just reset everything with the exception of brolly

even if brolly breaks the ice barrier that way, he already did so in this example.

I'm not a fan of the outcome or how anyone is portrayed, and I don't care what sal did with u20

Of course, the characters probably didn't know about Broly's lifespan.

The biggest problem, as I've always said, is that Broly defeated a character far more powerful than any of them, MegaBuu v1, and their Plan A was just to jump him all together. Plan B was incomparably better.

They also know that Broly defeated a Black Hole lol.

Plan C, unseen, was the best. Buu absorb Gogeta as well. And Janemba when he shows up. By golly, I bet he'd be almost as powerful as fatigued Vegito (lol)

And these characters aren't stupid. They're identical to Z fighters, except that Broly missed the sun. We can tell, since Uub and Buu are there.

Team power never works in Dragonball directly. It always has to be combined in one person. (Fusion, Spirit Bomb, Broly Movie)

A team did beat a worn-down Vegeta.

Vegeta helped vs cell, but Cell was struggling v Gohan, Vegeta offered a distraction.

In Father/Son Kamehameha, it was more morale boosting. Goku didn't actually contribute to it.

>brollys life span

even if they don't know about it, they know he isn't immortal. so they just need to wait until he dies of regular old age and fix things.

it really is a matter of running the clock. they don't get older in otherworld, and well, the whole "lssj burns out quicker" is a happy accident that works out in their favor.

they could even just pull a xxi and warp brolly like they did vegetto into an endless series of HTC liek distortions, and each one has an accelerated aging property like freezas ability in dbm.

and if they can't come up with a complex plan like that, running the clock was always an option.

I know these are saiyans, but eventually they get scared too and don't do brute force ideas on their own.

using gogeta was a good idea, but they should have had gogeta merge with gotenks via potara, and have buu absorb them, and then maybe try magic if that isn't something brolly can lssj through like the lack of air.

old kai should have made goku and vegeta mystic, as well as any other good guy and have buu absorb them.

lots of possible ideas, never mind the obvious oe of just letting brolly die of old age and then he dies before that because they don't know his life force fizzles out sooner due to lssj.
"Wait them out so they die by old age" is more of a Supreme Kai plan. Goku and the rest have never been the type to just sit back and let Broly kill all the innocent people he wants during the time they'd be waiting.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: so...the gang made things worse by doing something?

never mind the idea of just letting brolly burn through his life force with lssj, they had like what...10-15 years of mayhem?

just let him run his course and then use porunge and moori who are sitting in otherworld alive and waiting for brolly to die, they summon porunga when he is dead and just reset everything with the exception of brolly

even if brolly breaks the ice barrier that way, he already did so in this example.

I'm not a fan of the outcome or how anyone is portrayed, and I don't care what sal did with u20

Of course, the characters probably didn't know about Broly's lifespan.

The biggest problem, as I've always said, is that Broly defeated a character far more powerful than any of them, MegaBuu v1, and their Plan A was just to jump him all together. Plan B was incomparably better.

They also know that Broly defeated a Black Hole lol.

Plan C, unseen, was the best. Buu absorb Gogeta as well. And Janemba when he shows up. By golly, I bet he'd be almost as powerful as fatigued Vegito (lol)

And these characters aren't stupid. They're identical to Z fighters, except that Broly missed the sun. We can tell, since Uub and Buu are there.

Team power never works in Dragonball directly. It always has to be combined in one person. (Fusion, Spirit Bomb, Broly Movie)

A team did beat a worn-down Vegeta.

Vegeta helped vs cell, but Cell was struggling v Gohan, Vegeta offered a distraction.

In Father/Son Kamehameha, it was more morale boosting. Goku didn't actually contribute to it.

Quinncess Shuai was saying: who is TYou? Is XXI a collective entity? Also is shenrong sweating by how bad this wish is gonna be?
Who is Shenrong?

Kalenz was saying: Bra got over the fact that her father tried to kill her quickly.
For her, it was Tuesday.

Holy cow a Namekian with a beard. Love it.

ap2007 was saying: Small dragon likely limited power

His size isn't really an indicator of that, he's a magic dragon, could be deliberately manifesting smaller because he's indoors. We know he has some limits like not being able to grant Buu level magic, but we don't know how powerful he is compared to Shenron or Porunga.

I wonder if she'd trade that hat for this belt with a cool eyeball I found stuck inside of it.

Apple was saying: Poor Gohan, I really don´t see him bonding with Raditz, the same way he did with Picollo.

Piccolo was nicer than Raditz.

Teleported_Bread was saying: PrimeFighter was saying: The reason you don't understand actually, is Bra could've fought the mind control off. She VOLUNTARILY gave into the ecstasy of Babidi's spell. Even after she allowed the spell to resolve, she could've fought back to some degree at least, like Majin Vegeta did, but she didn't and chose to murder everyone instead.
There it is again. Exactly what I was talking about: An instance of victim blaming. No she literally could not fight it off and absolutely no she didn't voluntarily give into it. She even literally said it outright that she didn't let herself be taken by Babidi after Vegito, her own father, accuses her of doing so and thereby willingly killing everybody of her own accord after his anger multiplied when she defended herself against another one of his ruthless beatings - which, as a side note, is the textbook behavior of an abusive parent. If you go back to Z, you'll know that Babidi has said nobody has ever resisted his spell's compelling power, period. Even as iron wills go, Vegeta's is extraordinary. Son Bra does not have Vegeta's iron will and that's it. Period. Nothing more, and it absolutely wasn't her fault. If anything, Son Bra likely had a weaker will than she let on because of her life and Vegito's abuse. Abuse, whether it's verbal or physical, so often does that to people, corrodes their will, especially domestic abuse, and especially if it's parental abuse. The argument that she should have or could have resisted can arguably be said for a lot of the other characters present. And if you wanna stretch it, Son Bra isn't Vegeta's daughter; she's Vegito's, who's been established to be an entirely new entity. One bore from the fusion of Goku and Vegeta, but a new entity all the same. And tbh, I doubt even he could have resisted it the same way Vegeta did if Babidi didn't decide to play it careful and send him away, who he admittedly said harbored a lot of darkness in his heart, too. If anything, Vegito's mad rage likely would have been exaggerated. He would have felt in control from his own point of view but not really, unlike Son Bra, who found herself under the illusion of control as part of the multiple reasons why she was susceptible to Babidi's spell in the first place.

Look here, at least read this one part of my comment. I have seen many people blame Son Bra for her own misfortunes under her father and under Babidi, especially after Vegito said so, literally one of the least trustworthy voices in this series. So I am only going to say this once, and I am not kidding. Don't you ever say any of those are Son Bra's fault again. Nobody here. Ever again. It's more than because it's completely incorrect, much more: It's extremely offensive and equally disrespectful and insensitive to people out there who were forced to live through domestic/parental abuse. You are literally victim blaming Son Bra for being physically abused by her own flesh and blood or faulting her for her own insecurities brought by her traumas. I know survivors who were abused by a parental figure or both, so it angers me when people put all that on the receiver of that abuse and fault them for the deep, scarring affects that physical and mental pain and sense of betrayal harbors because of their traumas and the like, the mental health issues like DID or PTSD. I mean it when I say I will report the next person who says it. So the next time you get blindingly irrational about Son Bra and it gets into stuff like that, think about what you say before you post it.


First off, no one is downplaying anyone's experiences through debating Bra irl. This is about how she, the character is being written up and portrayed as. Second, how Bra was handled was bad. Again, the lesson we get from Bra is you can be excused from murder, and Vegito's actions with Bra have been reasonable because of how Bra loses control whether you agree with me that it was voluntary or involuntary (someone said she was asleep, so ok if that's true) which is exactly what his fears were shown in her rampage.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: King Kindred was saying: XarKhaan was saying: King Kindred was saying: Saiyan Survivor Gohan looks awesome.

And Gohan isn't evil. Even Vegeta who was born and bred in that life proved that he had the potential for good. Gohan's just been groomed to survive in that ruthless environment. He's probably still Gohan at his core.

In canon Gohan still wanted to be a scholar despite training and fighting for his life on Earth and Namek for years.

did he REALLY want to be a scholar or was he just brainwashed into it by Chi Chi and was trying to make her happy so she wasnt screeching at him about being a delinquent in a gang (Z fighters)

He literally did not like fighting and did not want to be a fighter. He felt that he had to. The moment his dad is gone and he's suffered mentally and emotionally against Cell he stopped.



Damian Qualshy was saying: King Kindred was saying: Saiyan Survivor Gohan looks awesome.

And Gohan isn't evil. Even Vegeta who was born and bred in that life proved that he had the potential for good. Gohan's just been groomed to survive in that ruthless environment. He's probably still Gohan at his core.

In canon Gohan still wanted to be a scholar despite training and fighting for his life on Earth and Namek for years.

Uh, Vegeta was changed because of Earth and Goku. Gohan gets the reverse treatment here.
Also he didn't exactly want to be a scholar just like that, he was put on this path by Chi-Chi and by being forced into fighting by Piccolo and Goku. You don't see Goten acting the same now do you? That's because Goten has a choice, he has a peaceful childhood, something Gohan never got. Also: Future Gohan is far from acting like a scholar material.
So there is no "Gohan at his core" because he didn't experience anything yet. And these three won't change around him like Piccolo did, they're not training to defend anything or anyone, so this Gohan is already different from the other two we know.

Part of the reason Vegeta was spared on Earth was because Goku saw good in him. He wouldn't have spared a threat that he knew could get stronger just like him. When Frieza tried to attack him he immediately killed him(he thought he did).

Goten and Gohan are just two completely different people. When we're first introduced to Gohan he's shy and timid. Goten was always more like Goku. It was like his spirit reincarnated into him.

Future Gohan is an outlier who has been forced to be the savior of his world against a consistent threat. There's no society for him to be a scholar of. But Trunks even comments on how Present Gohan got to live out what Future Gohan wanted.

I don't know about the dub, but goku just wanted to fight vegeta again. he even said he was being selfish in asking this.




https://m...-f87c42727821/8
https://m...-f87c42727821/9
https://m...f87c42727821/10

its not about helping vegeta find the good within himself or some thing like that, its because he wants to beat him with his own strength, on his own.

vegeta becoming good was an accident really. that was not his intent. not at all.

Both are true. Fighting a strong opponent again wasn't enough of a reason after to keep Vegeta alive, especially if he didn't end up coming back to Earth. By that point Goku knew the Dragon Balls were gone and hadn't known of Namek yet. He was essentially trying to replace Tien/Yamcha with Vegeta but he had to have known Vegeta could be turned into an ally.

AberrantDesign was saying:

This reads like a reply, but I have absolutely no idea who you're talking to

I am not trying to respond to anyone in particular. If I did, I think it would cause more issues. I decided to make a general statement and hope for the best. Sorry for the confusion.

ANON was saying: Bird Mountain was saying:
My fellow Earthicans, this is a comic

Most triumphant!


@PrimeFighter,

doing my thing? What is my thing? Haha hahaha, and yes, I do appreciate being able to do my thing. (Referring to a comment that seems to gone the way of Zen Buu from the tournament).


Super Gojita 3 was saying:
Stuff about parents, fusion, and Bra's inability to fight Babidi's magic.


Maybe Bra couldn't fight the spell like Vegeta, but for me, this once again shows the irresponsibility of Vegetto and Gohan and Piccolo. Bra has clearly been unstable and having a Broly/Vegeta inability to control her more negative aspects. As has been pointed out, she committed genocide and fratricide, and she's on her way to being the most powerful being in her universe. Bringing Bra to a tournament where one MAY encounter Babidi is entirely reckless, especially as the tournament continued and they actually see Babidi. Bra should have been trained to resist such things and to limit the negative aspects of her personality so that she doesn't fall prey to such attacks. Vegetto, while perhaps susceptible to the spell as well, at least has a reasonable basis to believe that he is either immune (Gokou's nature) or completely resistant via Vegeta's experience. Even if Vegetto fell pray to it, I think it would be a mistake or unforeseen as opposed to Bra, who was completely predictable. Looking at the entirety of the situation and not just the microcosm of tournament, Bra is a grave threat to her universe. Vegetto may be unstable himself, but while he may be a strict father and a little bit more Vegeta in the Saiyan saga than Gokou fighting Devil Man, nothing I have seen makes him a likely intergalactic threat to the universe. Vegetto could fall prey to something that renders him under an evil being's control or exaggerates his worst traits, but Vegetto on his own with no external influence is not going to blow up the entire universe. Based on the history of the universe and the tournament, we can only hope that Bra does not lose control and blow up the universe. And, that's a stark difference between Bra and Vegetto that I hope is not glosssed over.

Furthermore, even if Bra couldn't resist the spell, it doesn't necessarily excuse her behavior. She did no (or little) reflection on her behavior after killing her brother and blowing up an entire civilization. She did no (or little) reflection on her behavior upon nearly killing her father. These were warning signs that she was heading for disaster, but she continued like she was the greatest thing since before hydrogen.

Let's analogize here for a minute to hopefully gain some insight into the morality of the situation — in hopes we can understand each other better. I liken Bra's situation to a repeated drunk driver. Bra has been busted by the cops multiple times driving drunk. She was told not to do it anymore, even threatened with extreme penalties. She continues to drink and drive. She even caused a major accident that cost peoples' lives, and due to a technical legal loophole (like there was an error on the warrant to draw her blood even though the results show she was many times over the limit), she did not go to jail when she should have. Wow, what luck! Maybe she will reflect now... Nope. After a few weeks, she's at it again. She's drunk and driving again. But this time, someone else ran a red light in front of her, and she swerved and killed several families in a few vehicles. You can say that it was the red light runner who ultimately caused everything, but regardless, Bra is going to jail, and for a lot more than just another simple drunk driving charge. Maybe in the final situation, her actions may have been the same even if she was sober, but she wasn't. She placed herself in the situation in which she knew she was impaired. And ultimately, we may never know how much her drunkenness contributed to the accident.

So, to me, and I suspect others, Bra fighting in the tournament is getting drunk behind the wheel again. Bra's genocide and fratricide are the equivalent of killing a family or two while being drunk (drunk is equivalent to SSJ2). She side-swipped another car while drunk by nearly killing Vegetto in space. She killed Zangya while drunk.

By allowing her in the tournament and to continue in the tournament, her father and brother and green dad handed her a beer and the keys and said remember to stay between the lines this time, kiddo. I do not accept the Babidi defense for the overall situation while I do agree that it is a mitigating factor, though a small mitigating factor, in the Majin arc. I know people will have differing mileage on this idea, but it is not insanity to view the Majin spell as a continuation of Bra's bad behavior even if she wasn't directly responsible for all the bad things that happened.

I truly hope Bra has completely changed and grown from Majinization, but as everyone has pointed out, it has only been a day. She needs more history and demonstrated growth to earn my trust that she is different now, and honestly, narratively, I may not want her to be all good now. I may want her to continue to struggle and struggle in a way to provide more growth to her arc and provide more drama for the other characters to deal with. I may want her to fail and force the other fighters to deal with her and struggle with what must be done. I can hate Bra, as a person, while also appreciating her role in the narrative and potential for good story.

I know this is not the response you are expecting because I am side-stepping the issue of whether Bra could or could not resist the spell. I honestly am not sure. Vegetto seems to think she could have or at least should have been able to. Bra and most of the rest of the cast thinks the best way to treat Bra's alcoholism is to give her better beer and drinking buddies. <--- that's a joke. They think she couldn't resist it. I think she should have been able to resist it, but I do think her own self-control issues prevented her from being able to resist it. Her inability to control her SSJ2 nature had already reduced her ability to exercise her will in that state, and the spell was another layer on top. Vegeta was not one to lose control of himself in Great Ape nor SSJ2 so he could focus his will much easier to resist Babidi. (to repeat the point though, if Bra could control herself in SSJ2 normally...)


(though I am harsh to Bra here. I am actually a huge proponent of jury nullification for prosecution overreach and overzealousness. I don't look to convict is my point.)

AberrantDesign was saying: PrimeFighter was saying: That's specifically why I said even AFTER the mind control, she could've fought back. That page was to garter sympathy for Bra for her behavior in a way that made no sense. We know for a fact Vegeta was capable of fighting back. Supreme Kai himself said you can if your thoughts are pure, so page 1828 made 0 sense to me and is just to make Vegito look like a bad father when he's been completely correct in his judgement.
Just because you can fight back doesn't mean it's easy. If Babidi's mind control could be broken just by wanting to, he wouldn't have gotten control of one of the Ultras
It massively downplays how much effort it took Vegeta to pull it off

It actually doesn't because Bra is inherently one of Vegeta's (Vegito's) successors. If we go off the fact Cell also was able to do it, shouldn't it be reasonable enough to say those with some Vegeta in them can fight it off because they both inhereted his mental will power? I think it's a fair enough connection and doesn't indeed downplay Vegeta's feat to break the mind control, but exemplify it, yes?

Super Gojita 3 was saying: Rule 12 guys.

cool it on the judgement posts.

those posts are subject to deletion.

things like "you only posted that because you didn't read my post, actually" are subject to deletion, because they go against the rules.

I'll let it slide for now, but posting more like that will just get erased because they go against the rules.

refrain from doing so and please try to respond without that.

my advice as far as forum etiquette? try to respond to someone with the assumption that they don't have a bias, and try to reason with them.

on that note, have a good day and cheers!

That last bit, exactly. Thank you idk why it's so hard to do that. Was only talking about the character and not bashing Bra defenders. Just some unneeded extra comments people make is what's unfair to me and others who share opposing opinions.


AberrantDesign was saying: PrimeFighter was saying: The reason you don't understand actually, is Bra could've fought the mind control off. She VOLUNTARILY gave into the ecstasy of Babidi's spell. Even after she allowed the spell to resolve, she could've fought back to some degree at least, like Majin Vegeta did, but she didn't and chose to murder everyone instead..

Page 1828

That's specifically why I said even AFTER the mind control, she could've fought back. That page was to garter sympathy for Bra for her behavior in a way that made no sense. We know for a fact Vegeta was capable of fighting back. Supreme Kai himself said you can if your thoughts are pure, so page 1828 made 0 sense to me and is just to make Vegito look like a bad father when he's been completely correct in his judgement.

PrimeFighter was saying: That's specifically why I said even AFTER the mind control, she could've fought back. That page was to garter sympathy for Bra for her behavior in a way that made no sense. We know for a fact Vegeta was capable of fighting back. Supreme Kai himself said you can if your thoughts are pure, so page 1828 made 0 sense to me and is just to make Vegito look like a bad father when he's been completely correct in his judgement.
Just because you can fight back doesn't mean it's easy. If Babidi's mind control could be broken just by wanting to, he wouldn't have gotten control of one of the Ultras
It massively downplays how much effort it took Vegeta to pull it off

Can someone flesh out all the current theories on Vegetto’s rampage?(Why he snaps) I’m sure I missed tons, have some theories of my own too. Thanks.

I hope Gast has some sort of dialogue about what happened, otherwise it would seem little too convenient to keep XXI’s secrets intact.

PrimeFighter was saying: Teleported_Bread was saying: lol his tone shift.
Anyways, I didn't expect her to go to XXI so soon. Unless this is the final page of the chapter? I feel like this is when XXI finally gets exposed. What gets exposed first, though, is debatable - Either his weird Dragon Balls get seen first or, predictable, XXI snaps again and shows the nature of his true form. I also wonder why one of the Supreme Kais is with her. Maybe for insurance? Security? XXI's already given everybody a glimpse of what he is, but there's too much shroud for them to see what sort of abyss that 'glimpse' is really into. Either way, this is sure to be interesting.

MysticVegito was saying: PrimeFighter was saying: Dude someone in the last page said this same thing, but Bra is actually so so so SO stupid for putting herself here on a sliver platter to be eaten by XXI. Obviously it's not confirmed yet, but it's really looking like Bra is gonna be XXI's out. You wonder why we absolutely hate this character, but to be fair, we do see her in the visions of the future, so maybe she gets saved or i could be completely wrong about what's about to happen. Either way, I have 0 faith in Bra, and she's about to screw up again.

Considering the blatant favoritism around Bra at this point, especially after THAT arc, i doubt XXI will make a meal out of her (though that would be quite a surprise). Soooo let us see what kind of lunacy she concocted to just knock on XXI's door like it's a trick or treat.
You're both wrong about Son Bra. And she's definitely not stupid. Why do I get this feeling you wouldn't be using so many 'so's if it was any other character and you thought they were stupid.
I still can't fathom why Son Bra just being on a page is such a damn trigger for some people here and frankly, I'm not sure I can.

Ok let's go with what you said then about it being anyone else. Literally no one else thought it was a good idea, let alone a GOOD idea to walk to the apartments that've repeatedly shown to have 100% concealment, especially to the apartment of the almost 0 knowledge about, XXI's, to ask, "Hey we know you broke the rules and tried to devour or at the very least eviscerate Gast, but would you pretty please give us a wish. You definitely look the type to agree." Buu not knowing about XXI at least had the IQ to send super mini self's to explore to not be put in a bad situation.

It's a trigger because of how predictable it's likely to be that she's gonna do something absolutely stupid. This is written to be her redeeming herself for her ridiculous actions that had no justification, so much so that her stupidity is blinding her already terrible judgement. Killed everyone, just about, that wasn't teleported away willingly. What's the lesson we are to get from this character? "Some people have it bad in their past, so it gives them justification to give into impulses and kill people, even family???" Yeah, great character who got wanked and then nerfed here...? Saying she couldn't take Janemba. Inconsistent. There is nothing inspiring to me, as a reader, about Bra.

Just because you say she isn't stupid and you question why we have a valid opinion about this terrible character, doesn't make you right. End of the day it's an opinion and I think myself and many other people have said along the lines of the exact same thing about Bra.

A lot of greatness on this page, and it's tainted by a single panel of stupidity from Bra, yeah it's annoying.

Wth are you even saying? We as readers know XXI is evil, We know XXI broke the rules. 99% of people at the arena do not know these things, Bra included. You cannot be so uncapable of seeing other’s perspectives, that you think everyone in the story has 100% the same knowledge about everything you have.

Like the other one said, you get triggered just by Bra being on the pag, just because, and then figure out anything possible to get triggered about with 0 proper thought process. Even now you are triggered because 1. You expect Bra to have the same knowledge about XXI you have, even though she obviously does not have the same knowledge. And 2. You are triggered because ”it’s predictable she’s gonna do something absolutely stupid” …. Ookay..? In other words there’s nothing stupid happening on the page, you just are triggered about a character being on the page and already expect her to confirm your bias.

Maybe take a break from the comic, sounds like it’s needed.


MysticVegito was saying: Crozz was saying: Yes was saying: God damn it, time for the author's waifu to do something utterly retarded/evil again because she can do no wrong.
Can we not for this one time please?

Sadly no. Call me a hater if it floats your boat, but the fact is that Bra's reputation has been obliterated at this point, with little to no hope to make her truly redeemable in the eyes of many readers bar a small crew of diehard Bra fans. Let us hope that future chapters will prove me wrong.

Teleported_Bread was saying:
I still can't fathom why Son Bra just being on a page is such a damn trigger for some people here and frankly, I'm not sure I can.

Re-read all the pages involving Bra thus far, especially the infamous Majin Bra arc, and then you'll hopefully understand why. If not, well, ignorance is a bliss i guess.

It’s so funny you talk as if Bra is a real person who’s personally offended you and thus is not ”redeemable” anymore ???? Newsflash, she’s not real nor has she done anything to you, so you getting so triggered is both ridiculous and concerning. What matters is whether she can redeem herself to the other characters in the story, and for that we’ll just have to see. Nothing in this page should trigger you, and if it does it’s a you problem, as it’s clearly just personal problem whenever a specific character shows up. You saying nonsense like ”she’s not redeemable to many readers” and ”small crew of diehard Bra fans” trying to back up you bias just confirms this. It’s hilarious.

And no, sadly the previous pages of Bra and the Majin arc do not make this obsessive behavior okay. She f***ed up in the story and is trying to redeem herself in the story. Whether she can or not will be seen. There’s absolutely nothing personal in it to the readers, or there shouldn’t be. But as it seems to be for you, I would suggest taking a step back. Allows you to see the story as it is again after a small break

Grydon was saying: I hope Gast has some sort of dialogue about what happened, otherwise it would seem little too convenient to keep XXI’s secrets intact.

PrimeFighter was saying: Teleported_Bread was saying: lol his tone shift.
Anyways, I didn't expect her to go to XXI so soon. Unless this is the final page of the chapter? I feel like this is when XXI finally gets exposed. What gets exposed first, though, is debatable - Either his weird Dragon Balls get seen first or, predictable, XXI snaps again and shows the nature of his true form. I also wonder why one of the Supreme Kais is with her. Maybe for insurance? Security? XXI's already given everybody a glimpse of what he is, but there's too much shroud for them to see what sort of abyss that 'glimpse' is really into. Either way, this is sure to be interesting.

MysticVegito was saying: PrimeFighter was saying: Dude someone in the last page said this same thing, but Bra is actually so so so SO stupid for putting herself here on a sliver platter to be eaten by XXI. Obviously it's not confirmed yet, but it's really looking like Bra is gonna be XXI's out. You wonder why we absolutely hate this character, but to be fair, we do see her in the visions of the future, so maybe she gets saved or i could be completely wrong about what's about to happen. Either way, I have 0 faith in Bra, and she's about to screw up again.

Considering the blatant favoritism around Bra at this point, especially after THAT arc, i doubt XXI will make a meal out of her (though that would be quite a surprise). Soooo let us see what kind of lunacy she concocted to just knock on XXI's door like it's a trick or treat.
You're both wrong about Son Bra. And she's definitely not stupid. Why do I get this feeling you wouldn't be using so many 'so's if it was any other character and you thought they were stupid.
I still can't fathom why Son Bra just being on a page is such a damn trigger for some people here and frankly, I'm not sure I can.

Ok let's go with what you said then about it being anyone else. Literally no one else thought it was a good idea, let alone a GOOD idea to walk to the apartments that've repeatedly shown to have 100% concealment, especially to the apartment of the almost 0 knowledge about, XXI's, to ask, "Hey we know you broke the rules and tried to devour or at the very least eviscerate Gast, but would you pretty please give us a wish. You definitely look the type to agree." Buu not knowing about XXI at least had the IQ to send super mini self's to explore to not be put in a bad situation.

It's a trigger because of how predictable it's likely to be that she's gonna do something absolutely stupid. This is written to be her redeeming herself for her ridiculous actions that had no justification, so much so that her stupidity is blinding her already terrible judgement. Killed everyone, just about, that wasn't teleported away willingly. What's the lesson we are to get from this character? "Some people have it bad in their past, so it gives them justification to give into impulses and kill people, even family???" Yeah, great character who got wanked and then nerfed here...? Saying she couldn't take Janemba. Inconsistent. There is nothing inspiring to me, as a reader, about Bra.

Just because you say she isn't stupid and you question why we have a valid opinion about this terrible character, doesn't make you right. End of the day it's an opinion and I think myself and many other people have said along the lines of the exact same thing about Bra.

A lot of greatness on this page, and it's tainted by a single panel of stupidity from Bra, yeah it's annoying.

Wth are you even saying? We as readers know XXI is evil, We know XXI broke the rules. 99% of people at the arena do not know these things, Bra included. You cannot be so uncapable of seeing other’s perspectives, that you think everyone in the story has 100% the same knowledge about everything you have.

Like the other one said, you get triggered just by Bra being on the pag, just because, and then figure out anything possible to get triggered about with 0 proper thought process. Even now you are triggered because 1. You expect Bra to have the same knowledge about XXI you have, even though she obviously does not have the same knowledge. And 2. You are triggered because ”it’s predictable she’s gonna do something absolutely stupid” …. Ookay..? In other words there’s nothing stupid happening on the page, you just are triggered about a character being on the page and already expect her to confirm your bias.

Maybe take a break from the comic, sounds like it’s needed.


MysticVegito was saying: Crozz was saying: Yes was saying: God damn it, time for the author's waifu to do something utterly retarded/evil again because she can do no wrong.
Can we not for this one time please?

Sadly no. Call me a hater if it floats your boat, but the fact is that Bra's reputation has been obliterated at this point, with little to no hope to make her truly redeemable in the eyes of many readers bar a small crew of diehard Bra fans. Let us hope that future chapters will prove me wrong.

Teleported_Bread was saying:
I still can't fathom why Son Bra just being on a page is such a damn trigger for some people here and frankly, I'm not sure I can.

Re-read all the pages involving Bra thus far, especially the infamous Majin Bra arc, and then you'll hopefully understand why. If not, well, ignorance is a bliss i guess.

It’s so funny you talk as if Bra is a real person who’s personally offended you and thus is not ”redeemable” anymore ???? Newsflash, she’s not real nor has she done anything to you, so you getting so triggered is both ridiculous and concerning. What matters is whether she can redeem herself to the other characters in the story, and for that we’ll just have to see. Nothing in this page should trigger you, and if it does it’s a you problem, as it’s clearly just personal problem whenever a specific character shows up. You saying nonsense like ”she’s not redeemable to many readers” and ”small crew of diehard Bra fans” trying to back up you bias just confirms this. It’s hilarious.

And no, sadly the previous pages of Bra and the Majin arc do not make this obsessive behavior okay. She f***ed up in the story and is trying to redeem herself in the story. Whether she can or not will be seen. There’s absolutely nothing personal in it to the readers, or there shouldn’t be. But as it seems to be for you, I would suggest taking a step back. Allows you to see the story as it is again after a small break
I second your whole comment. It's always the same as soon as Son Bra appears on the screen. Hell, sometimes even when she isn't even on the page. I've observed this phenomenon over many years by now. The hate some people developed towards her is fascinating, to say the least. And partially also a bit concerning.

But yeah, it's funny how those people generalize most of the time, like if we are all a big hive mind who "silently" have to agree on hating Bra and if you disagree with them, you must be a "diehard Bra fan"... Honestly kind of hilarious, that there is apparently no middle ground.

Personally I also wasn't a fan of Bra before the Majin Arc. I'm still not really a fan of her, but I understand that she's at least trying to better herself. I mean, the tournament is going for 3 days now in-universe. How much character development do you expect in such a short period of time? The Majin arc was one day ago. She is still kind of traumatized by that.
At least she isn't behaving bitchy like she was before being majinized, which was something I actually really disliked about her.

XarKhaan was saying: King Kindred was saying: Saiyan Survivor Gohan looks awesome.

And Gohan isn't evil. Even Vegeta who was born and bred in that life proved that he had the potential for good. Gohan's just been groomed to survive in that ruthless environment. He's probably still Gohan at his core.

In canon Gohan still wanted to be a scholar despite training and fighting for his life on Earth and Namek for years.

did he REALLY want to be a scholar or was he just brainwashed into it by Chi Chi and was trying to make her happy so she wasnt screeching at him about being a delinquent in a gang (Z fighters)

He literally did not like fighting and did not want to be a fighter. He felt that he had to. The moment his dad is gone and he's suffered mentally and emotionally against Cell he stopped.



Damian Qualshy was saying: King Kindred was saying: Saiyan Survivor Gohan looks awesome.

And Gohan isn't evil. Even Vegeta who was born and bred in that life proved that he had the potential for good. Gohan's just been groomed to survive in that ruthless environment. He's probably still Gohan at his core.

In canon Gohan still wanted to be a scholar despite training and fighting for his life on Earth and Namek for years.

Uh, Vegeta was changed because of Earth and Goku. Gohan gets the reverse treatment here.
Also he didn't exactly want to be a scholar just like that, he was put on this path by Chi-Chi and by being forced into fighting by Piccolo and Goku. You don't see Goten acting the same now do you? That's because Goten has a choice, he has a peaceful childhood, something Gohan never got. Also: Future Gohan is far from acting like a scholar material.
So there is no "Gohan at his core" because he didn't experience anything yet. And these three won't change around him like Piccolo did, they're not training to defend anything or anyone, so this Gohan is already different from the other two we know.

Part of the reason Vegeta was spared on Earth was because Goku saw good in him. He wouldn't have spared a threat that he knew could get stronger just like him. When Frieza tried to attack him he immediately killed him(he thought he did).

Goten and Gohan are just two completely different people. When we're first introduced to Gohan he's shy and timid. Goten was always more like Goku. It was like his spirit reincarnated into him.

Future Gohan is an outlier who has been forced to be the savior of his world against a consistent threat. There's no society for him to be a scholar of. But Trunks even comments on how Present Gohan got to live out what Future Gohan wanted.

This is so funny omg

Lucas was saying: And here we have it, hopefully the "XXI has done nothing wrong yet so he doesn't deserve to get killed like I'K'L and Old Kai say" crew are happy now. That's why you take care of the bad guy before he does what they're warning you he WILL do. To be fair I'K'L actually lied about U5 XXI being frozen in time by I'K'L's time stop hax, because I'K'L's time stop hax can only affect organic living beings but U5 XXI is not a living being, thus U5 XXI was actually not frozen in time by I'K'L's time stop hax. If U9 Yamcha made the mistake of allowing I'K'L to shot ki blasts at U5 XXI, U5 XXI would have absorbed those ki blasts and become stronger.

Silvan was saying: There is not much for him to remember cause he was a Baby when he lost his memories.Yes, however the combination of U18 Goku's goodness and U18 Kakarot's evil would prevent U18 Goku from using the Spirit Bomb, which out of all U18 Goku's techniques is probably his (U18 Goku's) only technique that could defeat U5 XXI.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: then, piccolo, the warrior type namek lost his ability to make children, while gaining more power and potential for power in the processHowever the fusion of Piccolo (Jr. or Sr.) and Kami is the resurrected Nameless Namekian, a resurrected Dragon Clan Namekian who has the powerlevel growth potential of a Super Namekian because of how his current body was created.

Bird Mountain was saying: How does that square with Daddy Piccolo Daima Oh giving birth to MAJunior (Piccolo the second)? Or is that one of those exceptions? Or was Daddy Piccolo not a warrior type? Or did Piccolo become sterile when he merged with Nail? Not questioning the cannon, but I am trying to understand the limits of the cannon.(Non-fused) Piccolo Junior, Nail and Nailccolo are Warrrior Clan Namekians.

The Nameless Namekian and Kami are Dragon Clan Namekians. When Piccolo (Jr. or Sr.) and Kami fused, the Nameless Namekian/Kamiccolo was resurrected, thus U3 Nameless Namekian/fused King Piccolo, U4 Nameless Namekian/Kamiccolo, U11 Nameless Namekian/Kamiccolo, U16 Nameless Namekian/Kamiccolo, U17 Nameless Namekian/Kamiccolo, U18 Nameless Namekian/Kamiccolo, U20 Nameless Namekian/Kamiccolo are Dragon Clan Namekians. This means that if the Nameless Namekian/Kamiccolo fuses with Gast using the Nameless Namekian/Kamiccolo's body as the base, the resulting fused Namekian would be capable of repopulating the U7 Namekians.

So far the only Dragon Clan Namekians who were show to be capable of creating Dragon Balls are those who were given the position of Grand Elder or given the position of Kami.

King Piccolo and Lord Slug are Demon Clan Namekians. Demon Clan Namekians are fertile and can give birth to either Slug-jin/Slug's Demon Clan Namekians/Planet Slug Namekians or Dark Vassal Namekians depending of the Demon Clan Namekian's ancestry in question. Demon Clan Namekians cannot create Dragon Balls as far as the audience knows so far.

Tambourine, Ukulele, Piano, Cymbal, Drum, Bolon and Bongo are Dark Vassal Namekians, they are the mutated descendants of King Piccolo.

Similar to Dark Vassal Namekians, Dark Namekians are the result of Namekians getting mutated by King Piccolo's evil, the difference being that Dark Namekians are adult Namekians who were mutated by King Piccolo's evil after they reached adulthood, while the Dark Vassal Namekians were born already mutated by King Piccolo's evil.

Commander Zeeun, Angila, Wings, Medamatcha, Kakuja, Gyoshu, Slug Soldiers and Slug-jin Frieza Soldier are Slug-jin/Slug's Demon Clan Namekians/Planet Slug Namekians, they are the mutated descendants of those Demon Clan Namekians (including Lord Slug) who were exiled to Planet Slug during the Cataclysm on Planet Namek.

While Lord Slug himself is only canon on some Dragon Ball continuities, the Slug-jin/Slug's Demon Clan Namekians/Planet Slug Namekians are canon on all Dragon Ball continuities. In layman's terms, whether the ancestor of the Slug-jin/Slug's Demon Clan Namekians/Planet Slug Namekians is Lord Slug himself or another Demon Clan Namekian varies from continuity to contunuity.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: Damian Qualshy was saying: goten-kun was saying: ZenBuu was saying: Poor Gohan... he has a rough time, doesn't matter which universe. :'(

But didn't he destroy Raditz' ship?
Yes, it's Goku's ship. I should make a Page about that.^^

Wait.. Wasn't Goku's ship destroyed way back? I know that Dr. Briefs used it's parts to make the Capsule Corp ship for Namek with gravity training though, so am I remembering it wrong?

that was filler, which I assume is both excluded from this comic, and it happened later with piccolo blowing it up.

he ded

What do you mean Piccolo blowing it up?

Bird Mountain was saying: How does that square with Daddy Piccolo Daima Oh giving birth to MAJunior (Piccolo the second)? Or is that one of those exceptions? Or was Daddy Piccolo not a warrior type? Or did Piccolo become sterile when he merged with Nail? Not questioning the cannon, but I am trying to understand the limits of the cannon.Piccolo Junior, Nail and Nailccolo are Warrrior Clan Namekians.

The Nameless Namekian and Kami are Dragon Clan Namekians. When Piccolo (Jr. or Sr.) and Kami fused, the Nameless Namekian/Kamiccolo was resurrected, thus U3 Nameless Namekian/fused King Piccolo, U4 Nameless Namekian/Kamiccolo, U11 Nameless Namekian/Kamiccolo, U16 Nameless Namekian/Kamiccolo, U17 Nameless Namekian/Kamiccolo, U18 Nameless Namekian/Kamiccolo, U20 Nameless Namekian/Kamiccolo are Dragon Clan Namekians. This means that if the Nameless Namekian/Kamiccolo fuses with Gast using the Nameless Namekian/Kamiccolo's body as the base, the resulting fused Namekian would be capable of repopulating the U7 Namekians.

So far the only Dragon Clan Namekians who were show to be capable of creating Dragon Balls are those who were given the possition of Grand Elder or given the position of Kami.

King Piccolo and Lord Slug are Demon Clan Namekians. Demon Clan Namekians are fertile and can give birth to either Slug-jin/Slug's Demon Clan Namekians/Planet Slug Namekians or Dark Vassals depending of the Demon Clan Namekian's ancestry in question. Demon Clan Namekians cannot create Dragon Balls as far as the audience knows so far.

Tambourine, Ukulele, Piano, Cymbal, Drum, Bolon and Bongo are Dark Vassals, they are the descendants of King Piccolo.

Similar to Dark Vassals, Dark Namekians are the result of Namekians getting mutated by King Piccolo's evil, the difference being that Dark Namekians are adult Namekians who were mutated by King Piccolo's evil after they reached adulthood, while the Dark Vassals were born already mutated by King Piccolo's evil.

Commander Zeeun, Angila, Wings, Medamatcha, Kakuja, Gyoshu and Slug-jin Frieza Soldier are Slug-jin/Slug's Demon Clan Namekians/Planet Slug Namekians, they are the mutated descendants of those Demon Clan Namekians (including Lord Slug) who were exiled to Planet Slug during the Cataclysm on Namek.

While Lord Slug himself is only canon on some Dragon Ball continuities, the Slug-jin/Slug's Demon Clan Namekians/Planet Slug Namekians are canon on all Dragon Ball continuities. In layman's terms, whether the ancestor of the Slug-jin/Slug's Demon Clan Namekians/Planet Slug Namekians is Lord Slug himself or another Demon Clan Namekian varies from continuity to contunuity.

goten-kun was saying: ZenBuu was saying: Poor Gohan... he has a rough time, doesn't matter which universe. :'(

But didn't he destroy Raditz' ship?
Yes, it's Goku's ship. I should make a Page about that.^^

Wait.. Wasn't Goku's ship destroyed way back? I know that Dr. Briefs used it's parts to make the Capsule Corp ship for Namek with gravity training though, so am I remembering it wrong?

Super Gojita 3 was saying: Bird Mountain was saying: King Kindred was saying: Fortuys was saying: DestroyerOfVegetards was saying: There is still a pair of Gast's legs that Janemba cut of earlier in the fight. I wonder if Gast can make use of those old legs.
Gast is not Cell or Buu, he doesn't have a regeneration core that he can move around his body, or the ability to regenerate from any part of his body, his regeneration is sourced from his brain.

Cell got his regeneration from Piccolo and even he was unaware of his own limits. Gast is the culmination of Namek's Hope and people. His regeneration is a lot stronger than what we've seen from Namekians. He could very well have that ability to create clones using his disembodied parts.

Are we also sure that we don't have Gast Jr. running around the ring at this point? Maybe he off-screened shot an egg, à la Piccolo Daima Oh (Piccolo is what his friends call him but all his girlfriends just call him Mr. Oh or Oh My God... Technically correct), that matured. Gast could definitely mature a Gast Jr. in an accelerated time, but admittedly this would be a stretch. However, Gast is good at stretching.

Dbm canon asserts warrior types like nail and piccolo (gast as well, since his base was nail) do not reproduce. at all.

gasts wish is to either become a dragon type and be able to do so, or split back up into nail, and the rest.

Salagir basically has used the guide book data on that by coincidence, not by design because he usually ignores that.

exceptions apply, with some details from the anime are included as fan service, like king vegetas design since he wasn't in the OG manga (dbs not withstanding)

So no gast jr running about.

Well, that is stinky. How does that square with Daddy Piccolo Daima Oh giving birth to MAJunior (Piccolo the second)? Or is that one of those exceptions? Or was Daddy Piccolo not a warrior type? Or did Piccolo become sterile when he merged with Nail? Not questioning the cannon, but I am trying to understand the limits of the cannon.


Oh, and how rude of me not to wish Asura a happy birthday...

King Kindred was saying: Fortuys was saying: DestroyerOfVegetards was saying: There is still a pair of Gast's legs that Janemba cut of earlier in the fight. I wonder if Gast can make use of those old legs.
Gast is not Cell or Buu, he doesn't have a regeneration core that he can move around his body, or the ability to regenerate from any part of his body, his regeneration is sourced from his brain.

Cell got his regeneration from Piccolo and even he was unaware of his own limits. Gast is the culmination of Namek's Hope and people. His regeneration is a lot stronger than what we've seen from Namekians. He could very well have that ability to create clones using his disembodied parts.

Are we also sure that we don't have Gast Jr. running around the ring at this point? Maybe he off-screened shot an egg, à la Piccolo Daima Oh (Piccolo is what his friends call him but all his girlfriends just call him Mr. Oh or Oh My God... Technically correct), that matured. Gast could definitely mature a Gast Jr. in an accelerated time, but admittedly this would be a stretch. However, Gast is good at stretching.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: Kururun was saying: I don't think it's very accurate to just say Goku got sidelined in Z. It's more like Z doesn't really write arcs like it did before Z with the bad guy being defeated in a straight 1v1 fight to spice things up, with the exception of Freeza (Super Saiyan buildup) and Cell (Father Son and hidden potential buildup). Besides that, Goku is very much at the forefront and takes a lot of the screentime, is a direct cause of every win. You can't really say Goku was a "support character" because he doesn't always 1v1 the main bad guy, because only 2 bad guys got 1v1'd (one by Goku) and the remaining 2 were a team effort with Goku being the obvious lead.

I was mostly paraphrasing, but yeah.

for people to say goku always beats the main villain is not quite accurate. thats a toei-ism mostly. at least in dbz.

manga goku didn't really get involved much in the final combat outside of team work and strategy.

his best work was support mostly, fighting cell to show gohan his strategies and powers, and later when he used vegetas idea to make a genki dama, and event hen it didn't work, relying on the db's to heal goku mid battle.

he 1v1'd 1 main villain in the dbz era canon, and the rest were team victories.

so if sal made goku lose to the main villain (again) it'd be in line with the dbz era of goku losing to the main villain, only to win later on with team work, or someone else doing it, ala gohan/cell.

goku was really indirectly involved with the cell final battle. all he did was support gohan with inspiration, it was gohan doing 99% of the work there.

WongTing was saying: thebritwriter was saying: Jesus! And I thought the infamous ‘frieza defeated’ episode title lacked subtlety!

Well, let’s see what happens.

Poetic word expression is a rare commodity these days. But who knows maybe this was intentional.

With that out of the way.

Why do people complain so much here about pacing? If DBM was finished, and 100% released...nobody would complain about the pacing.

They're releasing 3 pages a week, but that doesn't mean they should speed the pacing of the story because it's going to and HAS taken a long time to get it out there.

The pacing is actually extremely fast if you read it as a "full" thing. I haven't agreed with their direction in some areas but regardless that doesn't mean the pacing is bad.

Yeah you waited over ten years to finally see Ghast fight. Why? Because it took them that long to draw it, not because the pacing of the story is that slow xD.

For a lack of better and sugarcoating phrasing...

It's a lack of common sense to think because they're only releasing a set amount of pages per week that the pace should be increased. Patience is a virtue.



Super Gojita 3 was saying: Hick was saying: Vault756 was saying:

More people who I can only assume forgot who was the main character of this series.



I know Goku will win, but there are many different ways he could achieve victory. For instance, he might save the day, or he could defeat Gast in a match after the previous champion, XXI, loses the title for being completely insane. In my theory, XXI is declared the winner for a time, but once everything is resolved, Goku ultimately takes the belt home.

this makes sense. goku winning the day by himself 1v1 is mostly a toei invention. goku has only defeated a main villain on his own once in dbz, not counting og db. and that was freeza.

the rest were team effort victories, with gohan killing cell with aid from vegeta, the dragon team beating vegeta, and the earth, vegeta, fat buu, satan, gohan, and the rest all contributing genki to beat kid buu.


he lost to vegeta, lost to cell and lost to buu 1v1

and you could argue vs freeza it was a team effort too, at least before he went ssj.

after he went ssj, in the manga goku dominated that fight and then embarrassed freeza by not only clobbering him, but he also spared him some energy, and quit the fight like 2 times.

so defeating xxi might be yet another team effort win.

But I wouldn't be upset if sal wrote the scenario more like a toei style movie, with goku winning.

that would be fine.

>on the subject of goku and beating "main villains"

I realize goku defeated a lot of villains in db, but by Z the story evolved to where goku was not the main focus in the fighting. so while he was present, he was mostly a support character who allowed the rest of the cast to win the fights, with his influence.

goku was sidelined most of dbz, and only beat 1 main villain on his own.


I agree with most of this except. Goku was not sidelined most of DBZ, in fact id go as far as to argue that DBZ was all about Goku as a martial artist.

Everything there was to set the tone and stage for Goku developing as a character.

The Saiyan Saga was all about Goku learning his origins. The Namek Saga only sidelined Goku to give viewers to learn more about Piccolo, Namek, and our new enemies up until Goku goes to fight Frieza where it was ALL about Goku.

Here he embraces his Saiyan Heritage. The android Saga and Cell Saga was a mess nuff said.

I actually rewatched it a bit back and was pointing stuff out to a Friend that I never noticed, when it got to Cell's introduction HOLY mackerel was that a expodump contradicting mess.

He literally contradicts himself in the same episode while talking to Piccolo.

The reason this happened was to make Goku think he needed to find a successor so that in Buu Saga he could realize he was wrong and that there is no successor.

thats fair, I was mostly paraphrasing any way.

goku doesn't win against most main villains because he was trainign gohan, teaching fusion, being dead and returning to otherworld etc etc.

>The reason this happened was to make Goku think he needed to find a successor so that in Buu Saga he could realize he was wrong and that there is no successor.

nah, I'd say he goes with uub as his successor, and outside of GT, he is never found wanting.

mostly goku trains others to surpass him, like with gohan teaching fusion to the kids. he was mostly about the future generation in the buu saga.

Right. Sorry I 4got end of Z is Canon to DBM. Therefore you're correct about the Uub thing.

I don't think it's very accurate to just say Goku got sidelined in Z. It's more like Z doesn't really write arcs like it did before Z with the bad guy being defeated in a straight 1v1 fight to spice things up, with the exception of Freeza (Super Saiyan buildup) and Cell (Father Son and hidden potential buildup). Besides that, Goku is very much at the forefront and takes a lot of the screentime, is a direct cause of every win. You can't really say Goku was a "support character" because he doesn't always 1v1 the main bad guy, because only 2 bad guys got 1v1'd (one by Goku) and the remaining 2 were a team effort with Goku being the obvious lead.

thebritwriter was saying: Jesus! And I thought the infamous ‘frieza defeated’ episode title lacked subtlety!

Well, let’s see what happens.

Poetic word expression is a rare commodity these days. But who knows maybe this was intentional.

With that out of the way.

Why do people complain so much here about pacing? If DBM was finished, and 100% released...nobody would complain about the pacing.

They're releasing 3 pages a week, but that doesn't mean they should speed the pacing of the story because it's going to and HAS taken a long time to get it out there.

The pacing is actually extremely fast if you read it as a "full" thing. I haven't agreed with their direction in some areas but regardless that doesn't mean the pacing is bad.

Yeah you waited over ten years to finally see Ghast fight. Why? Because it took them that long to draw it, not because the pacing of the story is that slow xD.

For a lack of better and sugarcoating phrasing...

It's a lack of common sense to think because they're only releasing a set amount of pages per week that the pace should be increased. Patience is a virtue.



Super Gojita 3 was saying: Hick was saying: Vault756 was saying:

More people who I can only assume forgot who was the main character of this series.



I know Goku will win, but there are many different ways he could achieve victory. For instance, he might save the day, or he could defeat Gast in a match after the previous champion, XXI, loses the title for being completely insane. In my theory, XXI is declared the winner for a time, but once everything is resolved, Goku ultimately takes the belt home.

this makes sense. goku winning the day by himself 1v1 is mostly a toei invention. goku has only defeated a main villain on his own once in dbz, not counting og db. and that was freeza.

the rest were team effort victories, with gohan killing cell with aid from vegeta, the dragon team beating vegeta, and the earth, vegeta, fat buu, satan, gohan, and the rest all contributing genki to beat kid buu.


he lost to vegeta, lost to cell and lost to buu 1v1

and you could argue vs freeza it was a team effort too, at least before he went ssj.

after he went ssj, in the manga goku dominated that fight and then embarrassed freeza by not only clobbering him, but he also spared him some energy, and quit the fight like 2 times.

so defeating xxi might be yet another team effort win.

But I wouldn't be upset if sal wrote the scenario more like a toei style movie, with goku winning.

that would be fine.

>on the subject of goku and beating "main villains"

I realize goku defeated a lot of villains in db, but by Z the story evolved to where goku was not the main focus in the fighting. so while he was present, he was mostly a support character who allowed the rest of the cast to win the fights, with his influence.

goku was sidelined most of dbz, and only beat 1 main villain on his own.


I agree with most of this except. Goku was not sidelined most of DBZ, in fact id go as far as to argue that DBZ was all about Goku as a martial artist.

Everything there was to set the tone and stage for Goku developing as a character.

The Saiyan Saga was all about Goku learning his origins. The Namek Saga only sidelined Goku to give viewers to learn more about Piccolo, Namek, and our new enemies up until Goku goes to fight Frieza where it was ALL about Goku.

Here he embraces his Saiyan Heritage. The android Saga and Cell Saga was a mess nuff said.

I actually rewatched it a bit back and was pointing stuff out to a Friend that I never noticed, when it got to Cell's introduction HOLY mackerel was that a expodump contradicting mess.

He literally contradicts himself in the same episode while talking to Piccolo.

The reason this happened was to make Goku think he needed to find a successor so that in Buu Saga he could realize he was wrong and that there is no successor.

Vault756 was saying:

More people who I can only assume forgot who was the main character of this series.



I know Goku will win, but there are many different ways he could achieve victory. For instance, he might save the day, or he could defeat Gast in a match after the previous champion, XXI, loses the title for being completely insane. In my theory, XXI is declared the winner for a time, but once everything is resolved, Goku ultimately takes the belt home.

happywarrior99 was saying:

Because U5 Zen Buu's raw power is significantly stronger than U18 Goku's, and even then U5 Zen Buu's raw power was not enough to kill U5 XXI. U18 Goku using the Spirit Bomb against U5 XXI is not an option, because the DBM version of Universe 0 does not have enough people for U18 Goku to give enough energy to the Spirit Bomb.

Goku has exploitable weaknesses on a fight against U5 XXI:
— U18 Goku cannot counter XXI's magic, because so far it has been show that on DBM universe magic hax usually can only be countered by an opponent if they are an articial being or are significantly much more powerful than the caster or both. U18 Goku does not have any of those two aforementioned advantages against U5 XXI, because U5 XXI was able to kill a piece of Zen Buu, which is a feat that a ki user can only achieve if they are stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, thus U5 XXI is at least stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.
— U18 Goku is mentally retarded for anything that is not martial arts stuff. But no amount of Goku's martial arts stuff can counter XXI's magic.
— The DBM version of Universe 0 does not have enough people for U18 Goku to gather enough energy to use the Spirit Bomb.
— U16 Vegetto is more likely to snap if U7 Gast (who can use magic hax) wins the tournament instead of U18 Goku winning it.

Buu fired one Ki blast and then was immediately imprisoned. The issue wasn't a matter of power. The issue was that Buu had an easily exploitable weakness that allowed him to be invalidated as an opponent.

XXI hasn't actually been shown to use a whole lot of Magic. He had that teleportation spell and Buu's sealing spell and that's it as far as I can recall. He used a machine to defeat 18, not magic. So far all he's used against Gast was Janemba, who was a part of him. He hasn't used a single spell yet. We also know from his dialogue with himself that the spells Buu used on Gast are "far beyond" what he is capable of, but Gast was able to replicate Dark World Lightning after seeing it once. You are drastically overestimating the XXI here. Zen Buu and Gast have a lot of impressive magic feats but XXI hasn't done nearly as much. He isn't nearly as strong as them in terms of magic, that's why he wins his fights by attacking their weaknesses.

Also your whole thing about needing to be stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks to destroy Buu is just flat out wrong. Goku and Vegeta both destroy pieces of Buu on page 2050. The reason Gotenks couldn't destroy Buu isn't because he wasn't strong enough, he was stated to be stronger than Goku and Vegeta at the beginning of the series, it's because he isn't skilled enough. That technique isn't just about power. Goten and Trunks aren't serious with their training. They are strong when fused but they are slackers. We've also seen when it comes to technique Goku and Vegeta top rate.


Kururun was saying: Super Gojita 3 was saying: goku lost more tenkaichi budokais than he won.

Yes, but that was all meaningful buildup and development for him and the story. He can't win his first one because he has to learn that other stronger people exist and keep his drive. He loses to Tenshinhan because of a fluke because... Tenshinhan kind of earned it by changing his ways and it delays Goku's victory to the big "finale" of the classic Dragon Ball era. The 25th Budokai is a bit different.

That said Xxi winning would make sense because the entire plot depends on him.

You get it. Goku will win in the end because he is the main character. You may lose along the way but in the end the hero always triumphs. XXI will win this fight because if he doesn't the series can't really continue. The story needs a villain. If Gast wins there is no tension in the finals. Both Goku and Gast are good natured. Either would gladly use a wish to help the other or Helior. They may fight just for the fun of it but the winner in such a fight is a bygone conclusion so it's anti climatic. If XXI wins, and kills Gast, then the story has more paths to take. We know Vegito is going to go on a rampage but as long as Gast is around to check him, that can't happen. We're also missing a lot of back stories for some universes. I expect we have years more DBM to go and without a proper final boss it's hard to imagine how they stretch this out long enough to finish up all those stories.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: goku lost more tenkaichi budokais than he won.

Yes, but that was all meaningful buildup and development for him and the story. He can't win his first one because he has to learn that other stronger people exist and keep his drive. He loses to Tenshinhan because of a fluke because... Tenshinhan kind of earned it by changing his ways and it delays Goku's victory to the big "finale" of the classic Dragon Ball era. The 25th Budokai is a bit different.

That said Xxi winning would make sense because the entire plot depends on him.

Hank with a Q was saying: Gast consents to fuse with one of the Piccolos giving him a large power up. That fulfills the vision on page 732 that Bardock has where Piccolo is talking down to Bra and Vegeta.If Gast fuses with Kamiccolo/Nameless Namekian using Kamiccolo's body as the base for the fusion, Gast's wish to repopulated the U7 Namekians would get granted, because the Nameless Namekian is a Dragon Clan Namekian, thus capable of laying Namekian Eggs.

Hank with a Q was saying: After the battle Goku or Piccolo uses the wishes to defuse the U7 Namekians from PiccoloI think that doing that is not necessary if Gast fused with Kamiccolo using Kamiccolo's body as the base for the fusion. The Namekian Namekian is a Dragon Clan Namekian who can have kids.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: gast is sent away by xxi to the dark realm like vegettoIf that was an option, U5 XXI's friend would not have said that U5 XXI was not going to have an easy way of winning his fight against Gast.

Vault756 was saying: Goku, the main character of Dragon Ball, is literally going to be in the finals and people still think he isn't going to win.Because U5 Zen Buu's raw power is significantly stronger than U18 Goku's, and even then U5 Zen Buu's raw power was not enough to kill U5 XXI. U18 Goku using the Spirit Bomb against U5 XXI is not an option, because the DBM version of Universe 0 does not have enough people for U18 Goku to give enough energy to the Spirit Bomb.

Vault756 was saying: XXI has no way to defeat Goku, as Goku has no obvious exploitable weaknessesGoku has exploitable weaknesses on a fight against U5 XXI:
— U18 Goku cannot counter XXI's magic, because so far it has been show that on DBM universe magic hax usually can only be countered by an opponent if they are an articial being or are significantly much more powerful than the caster or both. U18 Goku does not have any of those two aforementioned advantages against U5 XXI, because U5 XXI was able to kill a piece of Zen Buu, which is a feat that a ki user can only achieve if they are stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, thus U5 XXI is at least stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.
— U18 Goku is mentally retarded for anything that is not martial arts stuff. But no amount of Goku's martial arts stuff can counter XXI's magic.
— The DBM version of Universe 0 does not have enough people for U18 Goku to gather enough energy to use the Spirit Bomb.
— U16 Vegetto is more likely to snap if U7 Gast (who can use magic hax) wins the tournament instead of U18 Goku winning it.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: I wonder what this means? the winner here is decidedly going to win the whole thing?

like, whoever wins here, can easily defeat goku with a trick, be it gast or xxi?

Goku, the main character of Dragon Ball, is literally going to be in the finals and people still think he isn't going to win. Wild.

Hick was saying: Gast is defeated, XXI defeats Goku in a single page, and during the award ceremony, XXI makes his wish — or gets interrupted midway — and chaos ensues!

This chapter will be fire !!

More people who I can only assume forgot who was the main character of this series.

Majunia was saying: XXI already won, and we also know Goku will somehow someway win the finals...still, I highly doubt the story is ending this chapter.

Finally somebody who gets it.

Hank with a Q was saying: My prediction of how this shakes down:

— Gast eeks out a win against XXI.
— Before Goku v. Gast happens XXI and/or Veggito decides to try and steal the Dragonballs/derail things.
— Shenanigans happen, and Gast gets mortally injured when dealing with XXI or Veggito. Gast consents to fuse with one of the Piccolos giving him a large power up. That fulfills the vision on page 732 that Bardock has where Piccolo is talking down to Bra and Vegeta.
— Once everything is sorted out the final is Goku v. Piccolo, giving those two old rivals one last match on equal footing. The organizers allow this since technically Piccolo and Gast are one person now. After the battle Goku or Piccolo uses the wishes to defuse the U7 Namekians from Piccolo and fix U19 Helior.

Gast can regenerate though. Janemba has been purified, the evil aura preventing his healing should be gone.

Am I the only one who feels like the finals are obvious at this point? XXI beats Gast and goes to the finals. XXI has no way to defeat Goku, as Goku has no obvious exploitable weaknesses, Janemba has been purified so XXI has no straight forward fighters he can bring out, and the trick used doesn't work because Goku is expecting it. Goku is the main character, and he's going to win because of that. The moral will be something like, being the strongest doesn't guarantee you're going to win. Sometimes being able to cover for your weaknesses is better than being stronger.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: for what its worth, bulma didn't want to go to namek, she wanted popo to go, but he declined.

https://m...-e64f89bd3c64/1

She did later on go but I assume thats because she didn't know there would be trouble.

https://m...-e64f89bd3c64/2

she really was kinda not wanting anything to do with that. krillin more or less cited she would be required if the ship broke down or anything, which is ironic as she didn't have any way of repairing it when it was busted. I guess she left her warehouse of machinery parts to repair it at CC. shucks.

I'll give her props for going, when coerced.

Okay, but no one was necessary for Goku's journey if his ship broke? Why didn't Dr Briefs go with him just like Bulma went and took Krillin?

Kururun was saying: Damian Qualshy was saying: Kururun was saying: عمار was saying: Kururun was saying: Bulma was originally written as a selfish city girl for the Pilaf arc because it made for a more interesting MC duo (naive pure martial arts boy, self interested sophisticated city teenage girl). They bounced off each other better. Once the arc ended, Bulma's selfishness barely ever came into play and she was consistently written as a good person (while still somewhat retaining her "city girl" edge but far less relevant). She did nothing but support and help her buddies, and she's arguably the Dragon Ball heroine.



All what see was in the Red Ribbon army arc. Bulma did care about her friends and helped them a lot. But she's definitely not this "selfless heroine" you making her out to be. She's as selfish as she can get and when the situation gets very ugly, she will put her life before anyone else. All these negative treats stayed with her for a long time throughout the show.

Delphince and Myetic Zander weren't exaggerating with their description on OG Bulma. This is who she was.

Not wanting to get buried alive in a cave doesn't make someone selfish though. Doesn't make her selfless either, obviously. My words were "arguably the DB heroine", in the sense that she kickstarted everything that made Dragon Ball the way it was. My point is that what people used to call her "a bad person at best, who should be locked up at worst" are merely basic human traits of not wanting to fight a world class army or stay in the collapsing cave (especially when they have, well, Dragon Balls, and know their friend is super powerful and might survive this unlike the powerless teenage girl). Human traits, and, well, traits that fit a somewhat spoiled (but still romantic and idealistic) girl: wouldn't call these bad people in real life either.

So, yeah. Dragon Ball heroine makes sense to me. Not superheroine, but a generally good person who stepped up when push came to shove. She deserves more credit than she gets here for Namek and the time machine. I'd agree she acts less heroic than Goku overall.

I am yet to see even one example of Bulma "stepping up". Just because she's useful to her friends does not mean she's a "heroine" or that she's "stepping up". More often than not, it's her selfishness that keeps her going - at least in DB and DBS, I can't recall an example from Z (however she was not innocent during this period too, by endangering lives during Z and was kind of a hinderance during Android Saga (fight with Gero) and Buu Saga (using Shenron before Buu was dealt with))

Going on a 2 months trip (at least) on a foreign planet to resurrect her friends who fought for Earth, initially only taking Krillin with her (Gohan asked to join after that)?

Building a time machine to, in her own words "at least save one timeline" as a first goal.

Going to Namek is like going on another DB search trip. She didn't need to be there. Krillin and Gohan would've been enough. Do you think she would even manage to do anything on her own if she didn't want to take Krillin as her "bodyguard", let alone survive? That's obviously IF Freeza or anyone else didn't show up. Guru gave Gohan and Krillin his Dragon Ball because he read their minds and knew they're good. Bulma is more selfish than good.

Future Bulma is a whole different character than her counterpart we know. Of course she would change. She lost literally everything, unlike this DBM special's Bulma who just lives under Gero's occupation not two maniacal teenagers who kill everyone on sight and have fun with it.