To everyone thinking it's Goku: how in the hell would he even get here without a Time Ring? And where would he get the clothes and Potara? And why? And Black killed him anyway??

The fact that this Zamasu has two Potara earrings is concerning though. It seems this timeline Black worked alone and never went to Future Zamasu. But then.. He never killed the Supreme Kais of all universes?

So I guess Cell is nearing the end of the fight. Likely isnt fusing back i to one after losing a clone because he'd be way to weak so he's just banking on out numbering Gast. I wonder if this Cell could have made Jr's? Im guessing no because it would have been safer than the multi form technique. Maybe Cell has been holding back though? Fun stuff.

So many comments saying they hope cell wins... we know for a fact that gast beats cell and fights making buu

supasanic4 was saying: I mean, who else is left for him to fuse with?U7 Lord Slug and U7 Cell.

So far U7 Cell was not show doing anything evil outside of wanting to fight Gast, thus I think that there is a chance that U7 Cell may eventually get redeemed and eventually fuse with Gast, because all of the U7 evil (or formerly evil) warriors (U7 Piccolo Jr. and U7 Vegeta) that U7 Cell has genes from have the potential to get redeemed.

In addition, U7 Cell has U7 Gohan's genes according to what Gast said about U7 Cell's genes/ki signature on page 2479, which I think may result in U7 Cell being less evil than U18 Cell.

Michelrpg was saying: And given how people are likely still dying left and right, this cant be playing into his "Im looking for a challenge anywhere I can" attitude either. This is just... nonsensical.I think that it was not explained yet where Gast got a craving for fighting from, because it was not explained yet which U7 Namekian is the U7 Namekian that had add to Gast's personality a craving for fighting, specially considering that Guru, Nail, Dende, Mori and Guru's other sons do not have any craving for fighting.

Cell, Lord Slug, King Piccolo, Piccolo Jr. and King Piccolo's other sons are so far the only Namekians who were show to have a craving for fighting. However U7 King Piccolo, U7 Piccolo Jr. and U7 King Piccolo's other sons are dead and did not fuse with Gast.

Did Gast fuse with U7 Lord Slug off-screen/off-panel at some point? If the answer to that question is "yes", it would explain where Gast got a craving for fighting from.

i asked once last year but forgot and need help again since its impossible to find it on a google search apparently, there is a multiverse branch comic thats based on Cooler blowing up goku's pod, King piccolo is more relevant in one and the humans more relevant in the other part of it, it switched off at times, im trying to remember the name of the demon namek who is supposed to be piccolo but corrupted at birth in order to find some google links but my brain get find it, I'm gonna bookmark it this time

Super Gojita 3 was saying: if its the multi form, I recall someone saying the clones are linked to the users life, so if the clone dies, the user dies. I could be mistaken

That's not how the multi form works. I recommend going back and watching goku vs tien.

staplerdude was saying: Worth noting that, while this Cell does have some regeneration powers, he isn't going to be nearly as durable as canon DBZ Cell, because he doesn't have frost demon DNA.

Piccolo DNA is what let Cell regenerate, but Frieza DNA is what let cell survive being blasted into pieces in order to have a chance to regenerate.

Piccolo has regenerated from just his head

Super Gojita 3 was saying: Philsdesign was saying: mulled_piss was saying: this does remind me, back when Goku blew his top half up, Cell regen'd and his power decreased dramatically, but when he self destructed and regen'd his whole body from the nucleus, he actually got a zenkai.
Was there ever an explanation for how his powerup works or just asspulls to drive the plot forward?

It was an asspull with no real explanation that was a massive plothole for 2 reasons.
1. Vegeta stated on namek that self inflicted wounds don't work so he needed Krillen to shoot him (Cell nearly died to his own explosion, so self inflicted)
2. He doesn't actually "heal", he just regrows blown off parts. His ki isn't restored, which is why none of the other times gave him a zenkai.

But it also had the unexplained "my cells remembered #18" and "I magically learned IT from Goku using it". So yeah, his whole return was a mess solely to give Gohan one last beam struggle.

Revealing his earlier Senzu was floating around undigested after he blew up and he simply ate it again would have made more sense.

to be fair, vegeta was the one saying it on the zenkais, as goku was shown to get zenkai boosts fro self inflicted attacks and other such things. it might even be a plot hole if it was meant to be serious on vegetas part.

And you are correct on the rest I guess. salagir had to rewrite that so it makes "sense" as in making cell able to move the core around.

as for shunkaidou, maybe cell learned it by seeing it, and experiencing it due to saiyan learning. he was the focal point of being whisked away, so experiencing the warp might have allowed for better learning on his part.

I would agree with the rest, the parts we don't agree is just well, db stuff that can be head cannoned away I guess.

Don't forget, the severe gravity was also wrecking his body too, not just his own ki blasts (the gravity was constantly crushing him, Dr Brief even told Vegeta his gravity request would outright kill him).

So Vegeta's (who is pretty much the authority on saiyan mechanics and biggest zenkai abuser) statement can still be true if you add the outside sources did contribute to wrecking Goku's body (especially since he apparently got several in the ship yet the one he got after Ginyu was 10x all of those combined)

mulled_piss was saying: this does remind me, back when Goku blew his top half up, Cell regen'd and his power decreased dramatically, but when he self destructed and regen'd his whole body from the nucleus, he actually got a zenkai.
Was there ever an explanation for how his powerup works or just asspulls to drive the plot forward?

It was an asspull with no real explanation that was a massive plothole for 2 reasons.
1. Vegeta stated on namek that self inflicted wounds don't work so he needed Krillen to shoot him (Cell nearly died to his own explosion, so self inflicted)
2. He doesn't actually "heal", he just regrows blown off parts. His ki isn't restored, which is why none of the other times gave him a zenkai.

But it also had the unexplained "my cells remembered #18" and "I magically learned IT from Goku using it". So yeah, his whole return was a mess solely to give Gohan one last beam struggle.

Revealing his earlier Senzu was floating around undigested after he blew up and he simply ate it again would have made more sense.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: Philsdesign was saying: Super Gojita 3 was saying: I wonder if this cell will get a zenkai boost?

I assume so, because gast knew to target the core of the jr in the budokai, assuming the jrs even have one.

gohan suggested they don't regenerate in dbm, but gast might not know that.

When has a Cell Jr ever regenerated?

The original 7 were pretty much unharmed when Gohan first went SSJ2 and then got curbstomped and literally ripped apart without ever regrowing any of the many bodyparts Gohan ripped off

They never did in dbz or any other official material outside of some later works (dbs), but thats not what I'm saying.

Gast might know cells core, as he might get a zenaki here, and see the jr and assume it can also do that.

Gohan even says "I don't think the jrs can regenerate"

Gast targets the jrs brain/core/whatever in his match in the budokai. so it stands to reason he will probably witness this cell regen, and get a zenkai, or I would like to speculate as such.

The zenkai is only for everything but his core being obliterated. Standard regen as we saw in the Cell Games takes a LOT of energy away from Cell. And even with the full regen that took some time before he returned.

Myetic Zander was saying: Vash was saying: This Cell lacks real combat experience. Sure it might have some “genetic memory” from the DNA collected, but it's different from actual fighting. The normal timeline Cell had to fight through Piccolo, Androids, Vegeta, Trunks, even before the Cell game. On multiple encounters, Cell was at a disadvantage. This one here is fresh out of the lab.

SSJ2 Your Nick was saying: Something to note about this Cell is, while he lacks Freeza/Cold's DNA, he does have something ours lacks... Gohans.

It's possible he's a loose cannon in the same way, and if pushed he'd essentially go SSJ2/Super Perfect. That rage boost might make him a real challenge, regardless of the Frost Demon DNA.

The normal timeline perfect Cell had Gohan’s DNA from the Saiyan Saga. At the same time they collected DNA from Goku, Vegeta, and Nappa, Piccolo, and other five human Z-fighters. Possibility Saibeman too, which might be where Cell’s self-destruction skill comes from.

The manga actually only specifies Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, Freeza and King Cold by name. It also says, “a number of other life forms” but doesn’t specify who/what.
Might be the humans/Gohan’s, might a couple of bugs. We don’t know.
tbh they say that but cell shows multiple other moves in the anime that indicate he has tien's cells, krillins, etc. but thats the anime.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: I wonder if this cell will get a zenkai boost?

I assume so, because gast knew to target the core of the jr in the budokai, assuming the jrs even have one.

gohan suggested they don't regenerate in dbm, but gast might not know that.

When has a Cell Jr ever regenerated?

The original 7 were pretty much unharmed when Gohan first went SSJ2 and then got curbstomped and literally ripped apart without ever regrowing any of the many bodyparts Gohan ripped off

Why has none of the Androids or Cell rebelled against Dr. Gero?

Super Gojita 3 was saying: I'm guessing the gohan dna is why he is extra strong.

so while gohan is usualy weak in the future and other universes where he doesn't train, or didn't have magic enhancements, gohan does have a lot of potential regardless.

so with this cell having the "perfect" abilities of the z fighters, such as bigger zenkai boosts, better regeneration than piccolo, I could see this cell having enhanced "hybrid" potential as well rage boosts.

And we don't know how many Androids has Cell absorbed in this timeline, cause Gero has produced way way more.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: Stanislao Moulinsky was saying: RockyJoe was saying: kkk was saying: iron leaf was saying: Oh no, that reminds me of something.
U7 Cell doesn't have frost demon DNA so he probably can't breathe in space like U17/canon Cell can.

Since when do Androids need to breathe?

Since when Cell is an android?


Ha. Dub terms.

Jinzo ningun is the apt term.

It encompasses androids, robots, cyborgs and whatever cell is.

A biological organism. A chimera of sorts.

Funimation refers to him as an android which is absolutely wrong.

In any case, cell lacks freeza dna, but maybe he has water bear dna or whatever its called. Tardigrades i believe.

So it should be assumed cell needs air to breathe.

Chimera would have been a better fit in referencing Cell. He's a humanoid, mostly, but 'artificial human'? That would only apply to #16 and 19, who could actually fit the definition of an 'android'. #17 and 18 are pretty much biological humans, albeit genetically modified and with energy generators in their bodies.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: Stanislao Moulinsky was saying: RockyJoe was saying: kkk was saying: iron leaf was saying: Oh no, that reminds me of something.
U7 Cell doesn't have frost demon DNA so he probably can't breathe in space like U17/canon Cell can.

Since when do Androids need to breathe?

Since when Cell is an android?


Ha. Dub terms.

Jinzo ningun is the apt term.

It encompasses androids, robots, cyborgs and whatever cell is.

A biological organism. A chimera of sorts.

Funimation refers to him as an android which is absolutely wrong.

In any case, cell lacks freeza dna, but maybe he has water bear dna or whatever its called. Tardigrades i believe.

So it should be assumed cell needs air to breathe.

I know, I was just playing dumb. :P The point is that the question makes no sense both way.

Cell isn't a "robot in the shape of a human" and even in the context of the "everything goes" DB definition of android the implication of the question is that 17, 18 and Cell don't need to breath which is...uh...why would you think that?

Stanislao Moulinsky was saying: RockyJoe was saying: kkk was saying: iron leaf was saying: Oh no, that reminds me of something.
U7 Cell doesn't have frost demon DNA so he probably can't breathe in space like U17/canon Cell can.

Since when do Androids need to breathe?

Since when Cell is an android?

Since when was he an artificial human? Even the Japanese version gets it wrong.

Since when do artificial bio-monsters need to breathe?

RockyJoe was saying: kkk was saying: iron leaf was saying: Oh no, that reminds me of something.
U7 Cell doesn't have frost demon DNA so he probably can't breathe in space like U17/canon Cell can.

Since when do Androids need to breathe?

Since when Cell is an android?

That arm's looking rough. Gohan has bad luck with arms and androids, huh?

Ammar was saying: Thiln was saying: Sure #17 and 18 fight together, but that was only occasional when they feel the 'rules' of their 'game' were violated.
Yeah, I don't think I ever saw DBZ villains working together to take a stronger foe. #17 & #18 are the only exception of teamwork in the manga. It's only the good guys doing the teamwork, and it still not as effective as what we see in this page.

YellNinja1600 was saying: Great artwork for the hybrid Gohan who is what 14 or 15 ?

Gohan is still struggling with the droids This also explains why Gohan didn’t just kill them all when becoming ssj. They were still comparable and far too strong for Gohan to handle by himself. Or rather was it that Gohan has lost stamina rather than them all being stronger ?
It's simply what the long nose Android said to Gohan; there are too many of them and he can't kill all of them by himself. He will eventually gas out from getting jumped. And the power gap is not that big since we saw how much they can damage him from a simple blasts.

Jeice and burter worked together to take on goku thougbh

Let’s talk Power levels:

Cold final form > Android 16
Gast 10 years ago > Cold final form> Android 16

If we presume Cell 2nd form is similar or slightly stronger than Cold final form.

Why is Gast after 10 years not well above a normal Perfect Cell? And this is even a weaker one!

Also I think this Cell will kill Gohan, just for the irony of it.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: chstar was saying: Super Gojita 3 was saying: chstar was saying: Super Gojita 3 was saying:

but I personally don't feel goku can be put under the majin seal.

Unless of course, someone healed the bump to the noggin Goku took as a kid...

I don't think that's where this is going at all. Afterall, goku eating senzu beans didn't restore his evil saiyan nature or anything (then again, nor did they heal Tien or yamcha's scars). Anyway, I could see a scenario where this plays out. But not where DBM is headed I don't think.

but then he'd be kakarot! not goku!

all kidding aside, goku as he is, would likely be immune to the majin seal, as in canon you can't be put under control if you are pure of heart.

so I assume he can't be put under for a power boost either, imo

agreed 100%. If Goku can withstand the devilmite beam. He wouldn't even feel the affects of babidi trying to use the majin seal on him. It Would never work. I don't think it would even work on Piccolo or Tien. They have evil in their heart, but they would withstand it all the same. They have more good in them now. I get the feeling you have to be decently evil for the charm to work on you. Otherwise in the original series babadi would have been able to control a lot more people.

This is a bit off topic now, but I mostly agree with you.

so we'll end the topic with what you said and move on.

I don't really feel like its important to have the last word on the subject so we'll end with your word.


I got to ask. Why do people think healing the bump on goku head would bring out kakarot? Like his bumb is some sort of super powered evil side trope? Like first of all that bump had been healed for the longest time. It's not like he has a brain swelling from near 50 darn years ago just sitting there. Or like a little part of his brain being pinched by his skull. Secondly he's had senzu beans and been brought back from the dead multiple times. How would his head not be healed by then.

Calling it now, we are only like half way through the comic, and now we're going to get a GT type era of the DB's being scattered somewhere in the multiverse and the key fighters go on an adventure in search of them.

I just don't want it to end lol.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: chstar was saying: Super Gojita 3 was saying:

but I personally don't feel goku can be put under the majin seal.

Unless of course, someone healed the bump to the noggin Goku took as a kid...

I don't think that's where this is going at all. Afterall, goku eating senzu beans didn't restore his evil saiyan nature or anything (then again, nor did they heal Tien or yamcha's scars). Anyway, I could see a scenario where this plays out. But not where DBM is headed I don't think.

but then he'd be kakarot! not goku!

all kidding aside, goku as he is, would likely be immune to the majin seal, as in canon you can't be put under control if you are pure of heart.

so I assume he can't be put under for a power boost either, imo

agreed 100%. If Goku can withstand the devilmite beam. He wouldn't even feel the affects of babidi trying to use the majin seal on him. It Would never work. I don't think it would even work on Piccolo or Tien. They have evil in their heart, but they would withstand it all the same. They have more good in them now. I get the feeling you have to be decently evil for the charm to work on you. Otherwise in the original series babadi would have been able to control a lot more people.

Super Gojita 3 was saying:

but I personally don't feel goku can be put under the majin seal.

Unless of course, someone healed the bump to the noggin Goku took as a kid...

I don't think that's where this is going at all. Afterall, goku eating senzu beans didn't restore his evil saiyan nature or anything (then again, nor did they heal Tien or yamcha's scars). Anyway, I could see a scenario where this plays out. But not where DBM is headed I don't think.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: dayum!

he went to full out "I'll kill you all if I have to!" mentality pretty quick!

I guess this is where vegetto "snaps" at last!

I'm also guessing that ginyu swaps with gohan or maybe even vegetto in the confusion.

we've seen that ginyu can use evil peoples bodies pretty well with bra, so him using vegettos powers wouldn't surprise me.

xxi did cite he would like to make use of vegetto, if not even his daughter, just like how babadi did.

and while I wouldn't say vegetto isn't pure evil, he's certainly not pure of heart. an impure mind and heart could probably be exploited, and while he does have vegetas ego and pride (I assume as such anyway) the fusion seems to make people less stable than their base parts.

I don't think goku would consider killing his son for example, and even in real life those kinds of thoughts are considered to be mentally ustable.

this kind of mental instability is referred to as When an individual has intrusive and unwanted thoughts about harming their son, particularly when these thoughts are ego-dystonic (meaning they are experienced as unacceptable and inconsistent with their sense of self), it is often a symptom of mental health conditions like Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (OCD) or postpartum OCD.

Specifically, the fear of harming one's children falls under a subtype of OCD referred to as Harm OCD. These thoughts are typically distressing and unwanted by the individual experiencing them.

assuming gohan is really gohan and not ginyu or some other thing, vegetto would be committing Filicide.

so, lets not delve too far into the specifics of what this would be called, but I do hope that vegetto kills "ginyu" in gohans body and not just his son because he's impatient or something.
Is vegeta even evil, babidi could only control him because he wanted it to fight goku in dbz, he never had full control of him in dbz. And vegeta came to heaven that shows he's good (well mainly because of his sacrifice, but still)

And goku is just good and innocent. The combination of both is maybe a fighting maniac, but not evil

Super Gojita 3 was saying: I do hope that vegetto kills "ginyu" in gohans body and not just his son because he's impatient or something.

Noooo please let him kill Gohan for real. Gohan's probably the single worst major character (Vegeta's pretty bad too), he deserves it tbh. I agree however that the rationale should be solid. I was thinking perhaps Vegito sees the opening of the multiverse as his only chance to get to fight powerful opponents, which I could see being more compelling than being mad XXI won his fights easily (as has been proposed). However now it seems that perhaps won't be the route taken.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: if they did kill an android, I wonder if it was 19?

ssj vegeta lives, or "lived" in this universe, so a ssj vegeta beat down on 19 could be possible. then well, vegeta got overconfident and died. and maybe gero did finish off a weak energy drained vegeta.

Majin Vegeta as part of Babidi's team makes more sense than he came to earth and joined everyone

Calling it now: XXI is a Namekian.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: YellNinja1600 was saying: XXI can’t just freeze time as he would also be freezing the dragons and all his companions. Besides that seems like a limited time ability that even IKL probably couldn’t maintain for long.

I suppose he could freeze time, grab the db's gently so they don't break, warp somewhere else and make his wish on a far away planet where he can't be sensed.

but I guess he didn't think of that
Can XXI actually do this? People are assuming it's as if he can use IKL's power whenever he wants. But I suspect XXI can't, for some reason. His dragon seems more restricted. We don't know what XXI asked for, nor if there are any conditions/restrictions on using the time-stopping ability.

Think about it. There's probably something preventing him from spamming this power.

When asked about XXI not choosing a place that's 10 million times slower than 365 (about the dimension XXI used to defeat Vegetto and used against Goku as well), Salagir said:

"Yes, because it's broken. I have to put a limit.
For the sake of limit and simplicity, I decided that "time dimensions" all have the same ratio (which can be faster or slower)."

I think it's similar here. "Why can't XXI stop time all the time whenever he wants and it's convenient?" Because it would be broken.

Someone might think and/or express themselves: "IKL's power already has a weakness, #17, #18, and #16 won't be affected! Maybe South Kaioshin won't be either, since he also has that power. And let's not forget Uub, who might find a way since he hasn't returned from the other dimension yet."

Oh, sure, XXI vs. #16, South Kaioshin, and a potential Uub. The rest of the multiverse frozen in time (except maybe one or two other spectators in the audience, just like the story showed us when time was stopped by IKL). No, I don't think the script will go that way.

XXI can’t just freeze time as he would also be freezing the dragons and all his companions. Besides that seems like a limited time ability that even IKL probably couldn’t maintain for long.

there is going to be a lot of content still going on that will be post-tournament.

Beni-Kujaku was saying: Dicax was saying: "He stopped time to kill me? That sounds like him."

...and is also an ability I, Goku, who is a consummate fighter, recently encountered, and would have spend every moment possible thinking of ways to counter if I actually were Goku instead of a Lt. Worf surrogate.

That's the problem here. The edgelord subverting expectations with the final is one thing (a bad one), but Goku witnessing a technique that destroyed Vegetto and not coming up with even the beginning of a counter isn't Dragon Ball. Hell, the first part of this fight was exactly that. So Goku saw Vegetto lose to one thing and thought "I must be prepared for that" and then saw Vegetto lose to another and was like "I'm going to break from my character entirely and not even attempt to learn anything this time". Buuu.

The difference is Goku didn't see the spell happen (instantaneous, no actual spell or movement by XXI...), and didn't know XXI could do that. There's a difference between being prepared for an ability of your opponent, and being prepared for every single ability one has encountered in one's life at any given moment, and there is a difference between having two days to prepare against a technique you know everything about and having a few hours to prepare against a technique you don't know basically anything about.

Except that Piccolo literally says that he felt the same wave that he felt when I'K'L used it, meaning that the time stop isn't instantaneous and moves like a wave. Super Saiyan 0 Goku, after already experiencing once, would've also sensed the wave before it touched him and reacted accordingly.

The whole point of him being in SS0 was so he wouldn't get caught off guard by XXI.

goten-kun was saying: migoq was saying: I get it's mostly to allow this different take on the story and is ultimately w/e, characters in db or like any animes aren't know for reasonable thinking, but still I don't really see any reason for goku to not show up with the borrowed time to fight the saiyans, but showing up to do this
Goku is dead, he can't fix the situation. In Buu saga, he could Killing Majin Buu but he didn't. He just learned fusion to the boys.
Here, this is exactly the same thing. He learned some techniques to his friends. And he didn't know when the saiyans would come.

These are two entirely different scenarios. By the time of Buu's release Goku's 24 hours were already almost up. Like Thiln said, he was actively trying to prevent Buu's awakening. And since Goku's in contact with his friends here and has been presumably training with King Kai why didn't King Kai bring up Namek or the Dragon Balls?

Lets be realistic dbz has plot holes yall can question why he was allowed to come back to be in a tournament but not to help in the future against the droids or even in this story ... its plot holes and story that's it , plus this isn't written canon to the main story clearly

Super Gojita 3 was saying: OrangeSoda16 was saying: ZGrssd was saying:
King Yemma says: "No"

Realize how exceptional the Buu situation was. Nobody else even comes close.

Was that ever a thing in DB manga, though? I know this was the explanation give in DBM, but in canon, Goku was just allowed to come back from the dead tournament for no other reason 'sides him wanting to, if I am not mistaken. Heck, Baba just randomly decided to get Grandpa Gohan and have him as a member of her tournament back in OG!DB cause she could, although, it has been years since I last read OG!DB, so could be wrong.


Yes.

Goku even cites in the manga he shouldnt interfere. And this was the buu saga, and his reasoning was he was dead and should not interfere with mortal affairs

Odd since he released buu with vegeta but ok.

Goku said that because he didn't want to be a crutch for the Earthlings to always rely on. If he had solved it on his own what would've motivated them to get stronger? And he was right. Look at how Gohan didn't keep up with his training. That's why he tried to get Gohan to tap into his own power.

But also, shouldn't does not mean that he could not interfere.

But yeah, as others said, if Goku was able to come back and train with the Earthlings they should not be as weak as they are. Krillin should be alive with a decapitated Nappa on the floor.

I understand wanting to prop up Gohan since he's the main character in the story but there's a massive hole in logic and reasoning here to make it work when 5 years would've been fine.



iron leaf was saying: The 24-hour return from the afterlife was interpreted as a privilege. If I remember correctly. That would mean taking advantage of this concept to interfere in events of the living should not really be allowed. In DBZ, Goku was given permission so he could participate in a fun tournament with his family and friends. Which later got out of hand, but after Goku already received the permit. Vegeta was given permission so that he could defeat Buu because the universe was in danger.

I think if Goku was given his 24 hours during the Saiyan attack, that would be a blatant violation of Enma Daio's principles. The universe isn't in danger, just a planet. Why would deities from the afterlife explicitly interfere on behalf of one planet? I think taking advantage of the one day to train with old friends is more acceptable, since you're not directly interfering in a specific event. Just a short term event.

King Yenma's principles are keeping souls alive so he doesn't have to deal with the paperwork from planetary genocides.

Killing 4 Saiyans saves so many planets, including Earth.

ZGrssd was saying:
King Yemma says: "No"

Realize how exceptional the Buu situation was. Nobody else even comes close.

Was that ever a thing in DB manga, though? I know this was the explanation give in DBM, but in canon, Goku was just allowed to come back from the dead tournament for no other reason 'sides him wanting to, if I am not mistaken. Heck, Baba just randomly decided to get Grandpa Gohan and have him as a member of her tournament back in OG!DB cause she could, although, it has been years since I last read OG!DB, so could be wrong.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: I don't dispute gast is the better candidate, but piccolo is talking to vegeta and co. later citing he is keeping them alive. and a few pages ago, he did cite he could feel the wave disperse. so I'm assuming he figured out how to counter it, or will. so if he does, he is foreshadowed to do so, assuming he does.
I'd be down with Piccolo getting a Namekian fusion boost from Gast, now that we're mentioning them. It'd still be potentially temporary and be a good way for Piccolo to actually be able to counter the time stop.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: Gintaman!! was saying: Super Gojita 3 was saying: This reminds me of how quick they revived everyone at the end of the freeza saga.

1 chapter they resurrected everyone, and no fanfare unlike the anime.

They summoned porunga twice, and freeza was shown to be back already.

I guess they opted for pacing akin to how it was post freeza fight on namek

Except the part where that came after a good long saga with a good final for a good story. Not this anticlimatic ending for a tournament (yeah yeah, I know the story didn't end... Still is a bad development for an incredibly long part of this fanmanga)


Well quality is subjective.

I thought the ending of this fight was fine but if rushed.

I dont mind the ending but would have preferred more to it.

Maybe xxi could have tried more things before stopping time.

But we did get foreshadowing about piccolo bypassing the effect maybe, so we'll see.

You aren't wrong for disliking the fight.

So lets agree to disagree.

And i think that is fair.

If anyone's bypassing the ability it's Gast.

I wonder what Goku's vibe will be when he comes back. He's obviously not the sore loser type, but from his perspective, this tournament has been a total bust: "come to our tournament to fight the strongest people from across the mlutiverse!" and he gets two real fights across six matches and they're both with people from his own universe. Would be neat if he was like actually bummed out about that.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: I'm guessing ikl is not being brought back. or maybe they are waiting til later because he was so dangerous.

or he can't be brought back.

or they forgot?
Isn't there something about purely artificial beings not being able to be brought back? Like how 16 is still dead in the main universe to this day

Bombero was saying: Wait really? We didn’t get a 30 second countdown!? I mean if Goku was going to lose I expected he’d at least get a countdown.
He was dead.

Teleported_Bread was saying: Can you guys have a little faith please? Especially after we and the DBM team have gotten so far.
DBM is frequently disappointing, especially lately. Not having faith is a basic exercise in pattern recognition.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: This reminds me of how quick they revived everyone at the end of the freeza saga.

1 chapter they resurrected everyone, and no fanfare unlike the anime.

They summoned porunga twice, and freeza was shown to be back already.

I guess they opted for pacing akin to how it was post freeza fight on namek

Except the part where that came after a good long saga with a good final for a good story. Not this anticlimatic ending for a tournament (yeah yeah, I know the story didn't end... Still is a bad development for an incredibly long part of this fanmanga)

Spooker was saying: Monster was saying: Shadow clone jutsu? We know Goku can make duplicates.
Not how that technique works, it's an after image, it will not show you the wound like Shadow Clones do in naruto.

Piccolo, Krillian, and Tien have all been shown on screen using the Multi-form technique. Pretty sure Goku has as well and Cell is also known to have used it even in this tournament.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: I guess he could do the same thing as babadi and move him to far away like that poison planet on top of being in the HTC thing.

stack multiple things on top of the others, like ssj and oozaruu.

basically multi task

and well, I guess this suggests the dark HTC wasn't broken?

or at least he can make more.

Because Babidi needed a reagent (that metal zebra piece) as a cataliser to do that, Buu stated it. Even in the original history he does that. And I'm glad this excuse exists because it would be too broken to just tp people away no-consensual mode.

Even so, why Babidi just did not send them straight to a star or a black hole? Maybe it has its limits too, like a place he knows the exact location or had been there before.

XXI has no such reagent or have no time to cast it during the fight.

Also, the dark HCT dimension is not an object that can be destroyed. It is a place that exists, Vegetto only got out of there but it still exists.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: Damian Qualshy was saying: Super Gojita 3 was saying: Damian Qualshy was saying: Oh? I don't remember if Goku's hair changed during his fight with Vegeta, but this is clearly UI hair.

Anyway, most interesting thing I can see here are the DB Tenkaichi finalists. Would it be illusion battle again, sensing Goku back into memory world (sick idea, but repetitive if it's actually mental Battle again) or maybe in real time? Or just the opponents showing up. Man, if Roshi would show up it's a REAL shame that U9 was sent already, because they could at least see Roshi and Tien. Kind of bittersweet but this would put Goku and the Saiyans in a new perspective for the Earthlings.

Really hope it's not purely for the cover, which itself is magnificent. Thanks Asura for reminding me how great your art is.

I personally get the mystic/ultimate form vibes myself, but, I think white highlights are a common way to convey power and other things liek purity, and so on.





and the series has had more than just white highlights, red was usually the kaioken aura in the hair as well



having certain highlights is kind of a db cliche at this point. but I feel like when the artist is on point, mystic is more like the inspiration, imo

Not talking about highlights. Because, for example, Yamamuro was just throwing them everywhere since early 2000s and up until the Tournament of Power in DBS.

I mean the shape of the hair, that it's flowing just a bit.

oh, well I guess it just reminds me of the usual hair shape of kaioken when goku pulls that move out.



hair lifting and such is another anime cliche meant to convey powering up and what not. its really not so much an UI thing which in and of itself borrowed from earlier db conventions, but aniem and manga as a whole. its definitely not something toriyma invented.

toei even did this in movie 4 with false ssj or "just ssj but toei didn't know toriyama was going to make him blonde"



if anything UI looks just like ssj without being blonde.





and the UI omen is in this shot just his base form with different eyes.

so I think ssj0 or ssjnormal is just basically a slight hair lift which is just a db cliche at this point, and anime as a whole.

Yeah no I get that it's the shonen cliche. It's just that this SS0 art makes me think specifically about UI Sign. It is a slight hair lift, not exactly how Kaioken is done where it goes all the way, or False SSJ or the wrongly colored SSJ in the Otherworld filler episode. Although I think that even False SSJ didn't get the exact shape right.. at all.

Why I think of UI is probably because of the combination of different things like shading and the highlights, hair lift and the colored eyes. Also Goku's pose here is so fluid too. Maybe Asura couldn't get it exactly, or didn't even attempt that, but it has the same vibes for sure.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: Damian Qualshy was saying: Oh? I don't remember if Goku's hair changed during his fight with Vegeta, but this is clearly UI hair.

Anyway, most interesting thing I can see here are the DB Tenkaichi finalists. Would it be illusion battle again, sensing Goku back into memory world (sick idea, but repetitive if it's actually mental Battle again) or maybe in real time? Or just the opponents showing up. Man, if Roshi would show up it's a REAL shame that U9 was sent already, because they could at least see Roshi and Tien. Kind of bittersweet but this would put Goku and the Saiyans in a new perspective for the Earthlings.

Really hope it's not purely for the cover, which itself is magnificent. Thanks Asura for reminding me how great your art is.

I personally get the mystic/ultimate form vibes myself, but, I think white highlights are a common way to convey power and other things liek purity, and so on.





and the series has had more than just white highlights, red was usually the kaioken aura in the hair as well



having certain highlights is kind of a db cliche at this point. but I feel like when the artist is on point, mystic is more like the inspiration, imo

Not talking about highlights. Because, for example, Yamamuro was just throwing them everywhere since early 2000s and up until the Tournament of Power in DBS.

I mean the shape of the hair, that it's flowing just a bit.

Oh? I don't remember if Goku's hair changed during his fight with Vegeta, but this is clearly UI hair.

Anyway, most interesting thing I can see here are the DB Tenkaichi finalists. Would it be illusion battle again, sensing Goku back into memory world (sick idea, but repetitive if it's actually mental Battle again) or maybe in real time? Or just the opponents showing up. Man, if Roshi would show up it's a REAL shame that U9 was sent already, because they could at least see Roshi and Tien. Kind of bittersweet but this would put Goku and the Saiyans in a new perspective for the Earthlings.

Really hope it's not purely for the cover, which itself is magnificent. Thanks Asura for reminding me how great your art is.

Paladin was saying: Remember when Salagir said that IKL was a gag character? I still do.
I keep hearing that, but I have no idea where that would've been posted. Was this on his twitter, discord, or somewhere in the comments?

Majin Wasabi was saying: Super Gojita 3 was saying: majin buu using the mafuuba on say, freeza would fail because freeza is too strong and so on.
Excuse me, what? How is frieza too strong for Buu? I think you mean the other way around

No no. He meant that even with Buu being much stronger than Frieza, Goten Kuns belief that the Mafuba stops working at a certain point because of the enemies strength means that it wouldn't work on Frieza either way, despite the power gap because Frieza exceeds the cap that Goten Kun believes the technique has.

I don't agree with it having a cap, but even if it did, I don't see Nappa hitting or exceeding it. Personally

happywarrior99 was saying: If that is the case then U9 did not break the rules for giving medical attention to U9 Elder Kai and U13 Raditz, yet U1 South Kaioshin send all U9 characters back to Universe 9 despite only U9 Elder Kai doing anything that would be considered close to rule breaking.

A person giving medical attention to a criminal does not make them an accomplice.
He's not sending them home for giving medical attention, he's sending them home because they very clearly knew about the plan to kill XXI and are part of it

King Kindred was saying: Ammar was saying: King Kindred was saying: XXI has been breaking the rules the entire tournament by using his own set of Dragon Balls to cheat and he's now infecting other universes.
That's not against the rules nor it's cheating.

Outside help is both against the rules and cheating. Not using your own power to gain victory in a tournament is cheating. Not sure why you think it isn't.
Outside Help refers only to help given DURING the match, like throwing a tool or attack into the ring. All XXI has done with the Dragon Balls is learn a technique (not against the rules), get some information (only against the rules if given during the match), and get a remote (having equipment isn't against the rules, the Ultras use entire warsuits)

happywarrior99 was saying: CompactCoven was saying: Obviously this is only a guess, but I feel like this whole recruitment phase is a Chekov's Gun being set up, in the sense that if XXI was going to win, then narratively this scene of him "recruiting people to steal the wish in case he loses" wouldn't be writtenEven if U5 XXI wins against U18 Goku, U5 XXI would still need to get helped by those DBM villains to get his wish anyway, because otherwise there is a chance that U1 Kaioshins, U12 Trunks, U12 Android 16, U15 I'K'L (if he is still alive), U9 Elder Kai (if he is still alive), U13 Raditz (if he is still alive), U9 Yamcha, U7 Gast, U18 Goku and U16 Vegetto could try to get in the way of U5 XXI's wish.

Even if U5 XXI is more powerful than most of the DBM tournament Z-fighters, they can still potentially get the U1 Dragon Balls before U5 XXI gets them, thus U5 XXI would still need to get helped by those DBM villains to get his wish even if U5 XXI wins against U18 Goku.

Burner283828 was saying: XXI must have some big flaw.Friendly reminder that XXI was actually defeated on nineteen of the twenty universes that are participating in the DBM tournament.

U9 Elder Kai probably knows/remembers how U9 XXI was defeated on Universe 9, thus at some point off-panel U9 Elder Kai probably could have told U18 Goku how to defeat U5 XXI.
To be fair tournament XXI is 75 millions years older than those counterparts and also ate like billions of more stars.


Super Gojita 3 was saying: Burner283828 was saying: CompactCoven was saying: Super Gojita 3 was saying: ok, so I would think it funny if androids 17 and 18 were granted the multiverse travel ability, and they hijack the machine, and strand xxi in u0.

and the "all universes are in danger" line is hyberbole as xxi faces everyone in a very awkward situation.

that, or piccolo saying that line happens, but he's doing his best "movie trailer voice" impression aka don la fontaine, and it amounts to piccolo or a piccolo cosplayer doing the whole "in a world where..." shtik.

anyway, the multiverse being in danger would seem to hinge on xxi's plan coming to fruition in some way.

so...I guess it either works, or he wins in some other way
Obviously this is only a guess, but I feel like this whole recruitment phase is a Chekov's Gun being set up, in the sense that if XXI was going to win, then narratively this scene of him "recruiting people to steal the wish in case he loses" wouldn't be written
I feel like he must have some significant weakness that Goku can identify and exploit. Page 993 implies he's up there in power with Zen Buu / Super Saiyan 2 Fusion Level. If I'm being pretty generous and say Super Saiyan Normal Goku is as strong as Buuhan... and with Page 2074 and Super Saiyan 2 as 10x the first level in DBM... Goku would be 10000x weaker than XXI???? When XXI's the one with unfair magic?? XXI must have some big flaw. Honestly I'm getting some vibes that he's like actually going to get killed and his wish was just to revive him 1 minute after his death or something.

I think salagir mentioned that bra and vegetto are still stronger. it was on discord before.

so gokus got a better form, but is still weaker.

regardless, xxi might have some kind of flaw goku can exploit, the issue I have isn't any of the "goku powah level" its that a xxi driven revolt will be dimished in terms of twist, since the twist is given away.

but there is some merit to "we know, but the MC doesn't" kind of plot. it happened it db before, like roshi being dead, and goku didn't know, even though we did.

it can work, but I feel it would be better if xxis scheming was kept behind the scenes more here. its fine though
Buuhan is weaker than Bra so that wasn't in question.
One thing interesting is how in the future (Page 731) the characters have some kind of breathing room to discuss like they do. I wonder if the weakness is related to that.

CompactCoven was saying: Joey21 was saying: ZGrssd was saying: "I am sorry radditz, I am afraid I can't let you do that." - the Mental Blocks.
Probably isn't allowed to use the power against Kais.

Joey21 was saying: arkturas was saying: Raditz literally had a far higher power level than Goku did with much less training. He should have a lot of potential
Underrated take, but you’re forgetting Son’s plot armor

CaptainKashup was saying: Definitely the result of the mental blocks that made it impossible for him to hurt "good people"
Likely, but shouldn’t work if Kai is being evil right now. Unless XXI has magic that overrides even that somehow (he probably does)
How is South Kai evil here? He is stopping a assassination, while enforcing the rules for the tournament.
That is neutral to good.
Because he’s literally killing someone
He's killing someone who's actively breaking the rules, affecting the destiny of another universe, and plotting to kill another contestant. South Kai may be misdirected from the REAL threat, but this is neutral at worst
I was not talking to you, stop replying to my takes.

CompactCoven was saying: Super Gojita 3 was saying: ok, so I would think it funny if androids 17 and 18 were granted the multiverse travel ability, and they hijack the machine, and strand xxi in u0.

and the "all universes are in danger" line is hyberbole as xxi faces everyone in a very awkward situation.

that, or piccolo saying that line happens, but he's doing his best "movie trailer voice" impression aka don la fontaine, and it amounts to piccolo or a piccolo cosplayer doing the whole "in a world where..." shtik.

anyway, the multiverse being in danger would seem to hinge on xxi's plan coming to fruition in some way.

so...I guess it either works, or he wins in some other way
Obviously this is only a guess, but I feel like this whole recruitment phase is a Chekov's Gun being set up, in the sense that if XXI was going to win, then narratively this scene of him "recruiting people to steal the wish in case he loses" wouldn't be written
I feel like he must have some significant weakness that Goku can identify and exploit. Page 993 implies he's up there in power with Zen Buu / Super Saiyan 2 Fusion Level. If I'm being pretty generous and say Super Saiyan Normal Goku is as strong as Buuhan... and with Page 2074 and Super Saiyan 2 as 10x the first level in DBM... Goku would be 10000x weaker than XXI???? When XXI's the one with unfair magic?? XXI must have some big flaw. Honestly I'm getting some vibes that he's like actually going to get killed and his wish was just to revive him 1 minute after his death or something.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: ok, so I would think it funny if androids 17 and 18 were granted the multiverse travel ability, and they hijack the machine, and strand xxi in u0.

and the "all universes are in danger" line is hyberbole as xxi faces everyone in a very awkward situation.

that, or piccolo saying that line happens, but he's doing his best "movie trailer voice" impression aka don la fontaine, and it amounts to piccolo or a piccolo cosplayer doing the whole "in a world where..." shtik.

anyway, the multiverse being in danger would seem to hinge on xxi's plan coming to fruition in some way.

so...I guess it either works, or he wins in some other way
Obviously this is only a guess, but I feel like this whole recruitment phase is a Chekov's Gun being set up, in the sense that if XXI was going to win, then narratively this scene of him "recruiting people to steal the wish in case he loses" wouldn't be written

Crono talked? Dafuq?

iron leaf was saying: XXI phrases it here as if he wishes to have the ability to travel between universes. However, some have already mentioned this. If Porunga could fulfill such a wish, others should also be able to do so. And therefore there would be no good reason why ZenBuu could not.

I suspect XXI will ultimately word it very differently when it comes to the winner's wish. What if XXI wished to be a biological being from U1. Thus, he would have the predisposition to operate the Vargas' multiverse technology, as it was explained on page 2061. All he has to do then is get his hands on it. In this way, it would explain why ZenBuu could not accomplish it. Absorbing a U1 Varga doesn't help. That would be my theory.


dark.

Why couldn’t zenbuu just use his own balls to wish to be a being from universe 1? He has the power. It’s gotta be summing else bruh

Super Gojita 3 was saying: Joey21 was saying: Super Gojita 3 was saying: for people arguing over the "vegeta growth" and "you're number 1!" thing. the only thing I could suggest is that in a multiverse with unlimited possibilities, this u16 vegetto was made with a vegeta who was 99% there, and the "you're numbah 1!" thing was the straw that broke the camels back sort of thing. that 1 last push that made vegeta a good guy and completed his push as a babyface from heel and tweener.

and well, maybe in another universe with a vegetto who didn't get that "numbah 1!" that vegetto might not have needed it, but this vegetto here did require that to be a out and out good hearted person.

in a manga dealing with the infinite, there had to be a universe where vegetto wasn't pure of heart and corrupted by that tiny grain of negative thought from vegeta. and this vegetto is it.

This is a kind olive branch to the authors, but we’re forgetting he already saccd himself against Buu for everyone, and the events in that U were pretty similar. The Majin arc was symbolically the act of expunging this evil aspect from himself. Numbah 1 felt more like a cherry on the cake. Vegetto’s turmoil seems to be unique in a way (which I really like), but my spam contention everywhere above on the page still stands.

thats kinda my point. the u16 vegetto lacked that "cherry on top" which was the straw that broke the evil camels back, and was all vegetto needed to be pure of heart.

in any case, the potara has also the side effect of merging the 2 warriors psyches together, and that can have a instability side effect. it was never intended for mortals, just the gods. as such, vegetto might not have been all good even with 20 plus years. vegetto lasting as long as he did without much issue, aside from being short tempered, which lets be honest was kind of vegetas thing anyway, he's done alright.

perhaps in u16.1 vegetto turned out fine without that "numbah 1" moment. this vegetto was the one who did not.

lets also not forget vegeta was po'd after sacrificing himself against buu who by his own admission "did so on a lie". he outright tells goku he hates him

https://m...-ac348de44ee6/9

he had a lot of pent of anger and frustration at the tie he was made, so vegetto never resolved that.

then theres the whole "holding back as a ssj3" thing

https://m...ac348de44ee6/10

and well, it isn't like he had a lot of time in the manga to think about it either. it was fuse or die with goku baiting him and guilting him emotionally, with the whole "bulma and trunks are dead" thing. which, was true regardless of intent.

a lot of things to unpack here really. vegeta fused with a lot of hate and frustration here that went unresolved., regardless of his face turn and other such things when he sacc'd himself, which was undone when he saw ssj3 and other things were brought to light.

These are all good and fair points, and they could work, but it’s personally not enough for me. I just feel he had to have some sort of atonement within himself to initially sacrifice himself. It downplays much of Vegetas arc. From the get go Vegetto has had his own personality.Playful yet braggart. A solid blend of G/V. The potara madness — or just sheer madness at a mortal being too strong for being mortal — sits better with me, and feels like it gives Vegetto his own unique flaw, rather than playing on Vegetas.

In regards to the ‘fuse with me or bulma dies’, that could work very well if the Vegeta part was wanting to break away from the fusion out of resentment/pride, but Vegetto is wrestling with what looks like pure unmanaged bloodlust. Feels like a Broly issue, but more conscious— which is even worse.