lol Dr. Gero has a type it seems

Why ssj2 hairstyle

I guess this zamasu is much smarter than orignal to go to the lengths of learning goku abilities from king Kai just from watching his fight with Hit. I guess if Gowasu wasn’t able to sense zamasu evil intent King Kai wouldn’t either.

YellNinja1600 was saying: I guess this zamasu is much smarter than orignal to go to the lengths of learning goku abilities from king Kai just from watching his fight with Hit. I guess if Gowasu wasn’t able to sense zamasu evil intent King Kai wouldn’t either.

In super nowhere it was mentioned zamasu trained with U7 king Kai, or thay goku black could use any of gokus techniques (kamehameha, kaioken)

This Manga is just pure fanfic. At least art is good...

Art 10/10
Consistency with Canon 0/10 (like trunks is character who would never hold back...)

Teleported_

Teleported_Bread was saying: Damian Qualshy was saying: Teleported_Bread was saying: Damian Qualshy was saying: I mean it's quite a funky idea to make Zamasu train specifically under King Kai, but why?? They have their own universes. The reason why Zamasu trained with Kibito was because they're both the same rank and Supreme Kais can travel between universes. But regular Kais? Especially since in Canon we've got only one in the form of King Kai? The idea of four Kais in U7 was from a filler and then the movie. Heck, apparently only that universe also had five Supreme Kais (or it's simply another thing that Toriyama forgot).

Also, giving him Kaio-ken like that is.. Well, it really unnecessarily complicates things. Did Zamasu train with Roshi too and that's how he knows Kamehameha, or he met Yardratians and that's how he found out about Instant Transmission? Also, the "I mastered the technique without drawbacks lol".. like dude.. Just why?

Artiel was saying: papupata was saying: That's interesting that a Kaioshin would train under a mere normie Kai
Zamasu was once the North Kaio of his own universe. His planet was equally small and he had a pet pig as his attendant. I wonder if he had to do a sort of "farewell tour" with his peers before escalating to the next stage of his training. It would definitely be a good way to keep promoted Kaioshin humble.
Source??? First time I'm hearing anything of the sorts.
Yeah ditto cause the only thing i know in all that is how Zamasu was originally a Kai but his power was go great that it was decided he should be trained to become a Supreme Kai.

Shabby was saying: Trunks "beating" Fused Zamasu was already an absurd feat, I don't understand the point of making Black stronger.

But I do love the art!
Fused Zamasu was already weakening from his body falling apart, since only half of the fusion was immortal, so I think it makes sense his power would decline to Trunks's level by then. This is also after he caused it to increase in size, so it's possible that made the decay of his body worsen. The only thing that many consider problematic is how he pulled off that Spirit Sword. My best guess has always been that Goku taught or tried to teach Trunks how to do a Spirit Bomb off-screen for any number of reasons, and he wound up doing it and channeled it into his sword.
Zamasu wasn't getting weaker, no one in the show states that. Also, this didn't even happen in the Manga, it was wild over there.
Also also, there was never a time for Trunks to learn anything from Goku. BUT there is a short window where THEORETICALLY Trunks could've learnt that from King Kai himself - when Perfecter Cell shot him.
I never mentioned anyone getting weaker, just the idea that this Goku Black is simply probably a little weaker than his counterpart from Trunks's original timeline who fused with his future self.
As for Goku and Trunks, I suggested he taught him the Spirit Bomb off-screen.

Small problem. I was saying for the last 70 pages that this Black should be weaker and not have access to Rose transformation, and only now you're suggesting that possibility? Jk, but if he does have Rose and goes toe-to-toe with Trunks in Rage then he's just as powerful as the canon Black. Doesn't make sense (reason being, way less fights and didn't meet Goku nor Vegeta), but he is.

Zamasu said Kaioken has no impact on "his body" because he is an exceptional being, but sadly his is using Goku's body which has limit on Kaioken Multiplier.

He shouldn't have exchange his body with Goku if he could disregard the limitations of Kaioken.

King Kindred was saying: Not even the Dragon Ball Heroes version of Goku Black had Kaioken or mentioned any connection to King Kai and that one has Super Saiyan 3 Rosé.
He actually went past that. Dragon Ball Heroes Goku Black hit Super Saiyan 3 Rosé, but then sprouted a tail and regrew his eyebrows. He wasn't stopping at 3. But then he got killed before the writers had to decide whether to go with SSJ4 or invent a new form.

Damian Qualshy was saying:
Source??? First time I'm hearing anything of the sorts.
It is the first time I heard of it too, so I looked it up. It was a panel in the manga, when Gowasu was recruiting Zamasu. He's wearing North Kai clothes, is seen on a King Kai type planet, and has a winged pig like Bubbles is a winged monkey.

https://w...pt4823aiva1.png

I like that this brought that tiny bit of lore into the story. It's still unexpected that he trained under the North Kai of another universe, but considering that Zamasu is also a North Kai and also that he can travel between universes with Gowasu, it at least isn't impossible that he'd get referred there for training.

The real question is, how is Trunks going to get out of this.

And he didn't use this in Super because...?

This is fine. Zamasu's whole thing is God superiority. If he doesn't know other Gods with any level of strength or techniques then his plan seems completely self involved. This simply makes it so he has the experience that would allow him to use Goku's bodies techniques. Ginyu for example did not have that experience and couldn't do so.

Also people tend to forget that the body Zamasu took was Goku after the ToP. He had to wait a year because the balls were used for "some reason." So he could whip out Ultra Instinct. Kaioken is nothing.

Teleported_Bread was saying: Damian Qualshy was saying: I mean it's quite a funky idea to make Zamasu train specifically under King Kai, but why?? They have their own universes. The reason why Zamasu trained with Kibito was because they're both the same rank and Supreme Kais can travel between universes. But regular Kais? Especially since in Canon we've got only one in the form of King Kai? The idea of four Kais in U7 was from a filler and then the movie. Heck, apparently only that universe also had five Supreme Kais (or it's simply another thing that Toriyama forgot).

Also, giving him Kaio-ken like that is.. Well, it really unnecessarily complicates things. Did Zamasu train with Roshi too and that's how he knows Kamehameha, or he met Yardratians and that's how he found out about Instant Transmission? Also, the "I mastered the technique without drawbacks lol".. like dude.. Just why?

Artiel was saying: papupata was saying: That's interesting that a Kaioshin would train under a mere normie Kai
Zamasu was once the North Kaio of his own universe. His planet was equally small and he had a pet pig as his attendant. I wonder if he had to do a sort of "farewell tour" with his peers before escalating to the next stage of his training. It would definitely be a good way to keep promoted Kaioshin humble.
Source??? First time I'm hearing anything of the sorts.
Yeah ditto cause the only thing i know in all that is how Zamasu was originally a Kai but his power was go great that it was decided he should be trained to become a Supreme Kai.

Shabby was saying: Trunks "beating" Fused Zamasu was already an absurd feat, I don't understand the point of making Black stronger.

But I do love the art!
Fused Zamasu was already weakening from his body falling apart, since only half of the fusion was immortal, so I think it makes sense his power would decline to Trunks's level by then. This is also after he caused it to increase in size, so it's possible that made the decay of his body worsen. The only thing that many consider problematic is how he pulled off that Spirit Sword. My best guess has always been that Goku taught or tried to teach Trunks how to do a Spirit Bomb off-screen for any number of reasons, and he wound up doing it and channeled it into his sword.
Zamasu wasn't getting weaker, no one in the show states that. Also, this didn't even happen in the Manga, it was wild over there.
Also also, there was never a time for Trunks to learn anything from Goku. BUT there is a short window where THEORETICALLY Trunks could've learnt that from King Kai himself - when Perfecter Cell shot him.

I mean it's quite a funky idea to make Zamasu train specifically under King Kai, but why?? They have their own universes. The reason why Zamasu trained with Kibito was because they're both the same rank and Supreme Kais can travel between universes. But regular Kais? Especially since in Canon we've got only one in the form of King Kai? The idea of four Kais in U7 was from a filler and then the movie. Heck, apparently only that universe also had five Supreme Kais (or it's simply another thing that Toriyama forgot).

Also, giving him Kaio-ken like that is.. Well, it really unnecessarily complicates things. Did Zamasu train with Roshi too and that's how he knows Kamehameha, or he met Yardratians and that's how he found out about Instant Transmission? Also, the "I mastered the technique without drawbacks lol".. like dude.. Just why?

Artiel was saying: papupata was saying: That's interesting that a Kaioshin would train under a mere normie Kai
Zamasu was once the North Kaio of his own universe. His planet was equally small and he had a pet pig as his attendant. I wonder if he had to do a sort of "farewell tour" with his peers before escalating to the next stage of his training. It would definitely be a good way to keep promoted Kaioshin humble.
Source??? First time I'm hearing anything of the sorts.

Trunks "beating" Fused Zamasu was already an absurd feat, I don't understand the point of making Black stronger.

But I do love the art!

papupata was saying: That's interesting that a Kaioshin would train under a mere normie Kai
Zamasu was once the North Kaio of his own universe. His planet was equally small and he had a pet pig as his attendant. I wonder if he had to do a sort of "farewell tour" with his peers before escalating to the next stage of his training. It would definitely be a good way to keep promoted Kaioshin humble.

Seriously. What the heck is going on in the universe? Does the creator of this story hate Super Future Trunks? He already can't beat Goku Black. Giving him Kaioken on top of everything is overkill.

I understand that Zamasu was the North Kai of Universe 10, but he never mentioned a connection to our King Kai. That would've definitely been something he would've mentioned to Goku.

Not even the Dragon Ball Heroes version of Goku Black had Kaioken or mentioned any connection to King Kai and that one has Super Saiyan 3 Rosé.

This story is getting so cringe

If it is the Spirit bomb, it probably won't work.
Not a lot of life left.

Teleported_Bread was saying: Barnaba was saying: Bad Luck was saying: Bro, you stole a mortal's body because it was better than yours.


Zamasu was always a hyprocrite lol
Makes sense. Arrogant gods are hypocrites.

King Kindred was saying: So this is when Zamasu enters the fray and somehow forces a fusion onto Trunks.
Is that even possible?

The story's cover page implies it, but yeah. It never says that the participants have to be willing. Just the earring placement was important.

Bad Luck was saying: Bro, you stole a mortal's body because it was better than yours.


Zamasu was always a hyprocrite lol

So this is when Zamasu enters the fray and somehow forces a fusion onto Trunks.

don't celebrate too early ChiChi he may just break your heart in a way you don't want.

Can't tell if he's winning or losing.

Forget Vegetto and Gast, South Kai can one shot them all with quite literally, all the time in the world (though he would rather just send them back). XXI is immune, of course, but I'm assuming the wish can't be granted within stopped time.

One good thing coming from pulling out this distraction card is that it makes XXI look like a victim until he's made his move, but I mean, South already considers him a good guy, so that might not be that useful... And also, mind reading them would reveal XXI's hand in it, unless his magic immunity also extended to preventing that (but in that case, how did I'K'L read the mind of XXI himself?).

Unless, now is the time where we will find out if this ability has some sort of weakness or literally any limitation whatsoever?

Lampshading that people don't like what you did doesn't make it retroactively better.

I'm glad they're at least speedrunning away from the final match disaster. Hopefully we'll get to see something actually interesting and fun in the next couple pages instead of curbstomps.

Im actually curious.... what if XXI plans to eat the Eternal Dragons?

I cant explain why that thought popped up in my head, but seeing him there just made me think about it.

Well, something big's about to happen

Gothmog19 was saying: It never occured to me until now but time stopping powers or not, isn't it strange that XII was able punch through Goku in the first place? If it would be that easy, every fight in Dragonball would be over in one hit. Now i kinda wish XII just hurt his hands until time restarted lol.

Dragon Ball is kind of inconsistent on whether a character has to be on their guard for their durability to actually matter. You got stuff like Krillin's Destructo Disc doing squat all against Perfect Cell, but then Goku gets hurt by bullets and lasers.

Oh no! That's Vegeta's technique!

Teleported_Bread was saying: Can you guys have a little faith please? Especially after we and the DBM team have gotten so far.
DBM is frequently disappointing, especially lately. Not having faith is a basic exercise in pattern recognition.

kcheeb was saying: I highly doubt namek dragon has ability to grant multiversal title

Even zen buu wasn't able to figure out Multiverse travel even with all his powers

It was stated in page 956 that U4 buus power is greater than that of porunga

If porunga can grant xxi wish and while zen buu can't figure out Multiverse travel, it would be a logical contradiction
I never specified the name of the dragon that would grant the wish because I didn't want to assume. XXI did say earlier that he wanted to wish for multiversal travel. People in the comments section have been saying that the winner will get a wish from universe 1's Dragon Balls and they will be able to grant universal travel because of universe 1's innate properties. Maybe they are wrong though. What you are saying might also make sense. That just makes things worse however as it means there is no danger of XXI becoming a threat to the multiverse, meaning Bardock's vision is inaccurate and there is no reason for a final fight.

Teleported_Bread was saying: Am I the only one who thinks Salagir and Asura actually pre-planned this and other later pages much earlier than some people here seem to think?

Speaking of Zen Buu, I expect him or somebody to finally appear and blow the whistle on XXI. No matter what happens, I know the story isn't just gonna end on XXI winning and managing to devour the other universes. We're also still waiting for Bardock's prophecy, which XXI is definitely involved in. If Goku's quick defeat shows anything, it's that XXI has simply become that powerful. We also don't know yet if his wishes last until he wins his match he made said-wishes over.
It really looks to me like Zen Buu was permanently written out of the story. I really don't think it's likely they'll bring him back.

I don't think Bardock making a prophecy is a good enough reason for something to happen. In order for it to happen, not only do the tournament organisers have to refuse to give him his wishes (which is possible), wishes that he rightfully earned by winning the tournament without cheating (you can check the rules on page 72 I believe to confirm), the wishes have to be able to grant the ability of multiversal travel.

If the wishes can't grant multiversal travel, they don't even need to prevent him from having his wish. They can let him make his wish only to be told, "Sorry, that wish is beyond my power." What's he going to do then? There's no threat to the multiverse in that scenario.

I guess this makes it likely from a narrative perspective that the wishes can grant multiversal travel, but means the only reason the final conflict can happen at all is because the organisers backstab XXI by refusing to grant his wish even though they don't know he's evil. He could even be really nice about it. He could say something like, "I am just an old man who's getting lonely. I would love the ability to meet new people. I wish I had the ability to travel the multiverse at will."

Justanotherturtle was saying: This revival is pretty fast. I wonder if they are going to XXI's wishes just as quickly next page or if they will take a bit of time beforehand.

@iron leaf

In hindsight, I guess I did twist your words. I'm sorry.

kkk was saying: DestroyerOfVegetards was saying: XXI can stop time right now and steal the wish, unless the magic requires some recharge time.
This though, I doubt XXI can make a wish while time is stopped, because the dragon is likely also frozen when XXI uses the magic and won't be able to hear the wish. Unless by stealing the wish you mean killing everyone who's not his ally and then unfreeze time and make the wish?

I think there's a flaw in what both you and DestroyerofVegetards are talking about. You both seem to think that XXI needs to steal a wish. Why? He is the rightful winner of the tournament. It is not against the rules to enhance yourself with the Dragon Balls before a fight. It is not against the rules to kill your opponent. He has not broken the rules for any of his fights in this tournament. He didn't even participate in the Majin rebellion. He shouldn't need to steal a wish because he has rightfully earned his wishes.
That's a problem I have with the idea that the story is going to continue even after the tournament. It logically shouldn't. XXI has shown himself to be an intelligent, pragmatic combatant. The intelligent, pragmatic thing to do is make his for u19 first, make his own wish to be able to travel the multiverse at will immediately afterwards, then use his newfound ability to leave as soon as his wish for himself is granted. Done. It makes little sense for there to be a final fight afterwards. The following is basically how it should go.

XXI: "I wish that I could travel between universes whenever I want, under my own power."
Eternal Dragon: "Wish granted."
XXI: leaves the universe immediately with this new power, not bothering to fight anyone.

Why is there going to be a final conflict? The only reason I can see for there being a final conflict is if the tournament organizers backstab him by not letting him have his wish, even though it's rightfully his. That is possible, because they established earlier that they were going to 'close' the universes after the tournament (however they plan on doing that), but it kind of makes them dicks. They don't know he's evil, so in that situation they're just refusing to grant what may seem to be a reasonable wish to the rightful winner who has always been a fair combatant.
I highly doubt namek dragon has ability to grant multiversal title

Even zen buu wasn't able to figure out Multiverse travel even with all his powers

It was stated in page 956 that U4 buus power is greater than that of porunga

If porunga can grant xxi wish and while zen buu can't figure out Multiverse travel, it would be a logical contradiction

So much for discontent. They're just taking it in stride. No questions asked. Yeah, there's obviously much more to come but it's kind of surreal how quickly the finale of this whole tournament is being shrugged off.

The audience said the same thing we’ve been saying so that makes it okay!!
Not. Sorry but that doesn’t suffice this time. Hopefully whatever comes next actually makes up for this disappointing finale.
At least the art is gorgeous. Asura can do no wrong.

I'm quite sure things are far from over. Why's everyone finished so readily?
I think that even if the second part of this DBM chapter is somehow the best DBM pages ever it is still probably not going to be enough to make the fans stop being angry at this DBM chapter anticlimax.

Probably should've at least given us a fight scene

This is FINALS ffs

Couldn't xxi use ikl ability after some amount of fighting at least?

People are freaking out way too early, as per usual.

OK. Let's calm down for now, please.

Ok, some people here get so worked up that it soon gets completely out of hand.

@CompactCoven, Kururun, TheSloppaSituation, JustSaiyan, Gast Greatness, Your nickel, A Saiyan

Try again but this time without getting emotional.

Maybe this will be solution
https://www.dragonball-multiverse.com/en/page-1458.html
Mary Sue to the rescue.

It really feels weird that Raditz keeps trying so hard to kill non-combatants instead of the one he claims to be mad at.

I just remembered.. Other than lack of Future Zamasu, we still don't know if Shin died as well during Babidi's attack. Or if said attack even went the same way as originally. Would be nice to know that eventually some more info about this timeline would be revealed.

Delphince was saying: How many times now has Goku had that happen to him?
According to DBM, he can have an entire round of fighting in the blink of an eye, yet he still decides to stand there and be chatty at audience speed when he knows he's dealing with a trickster.
Frankly, that could legit be the outcome of the fight, and it would be on brand for him.

no doubt, classic kakarot.

Just a little heads up before this comment section goes up in flames:

Please stay civil and voice your opinion in a friendly manner. But when we consider people going too much overboard, we will delete comments.

Thank you! :)

Dont like chichi from z dont like chichi from here. Let our boy fight and get strong.

To withstand a blast like that, Yamcha is definitely stronger than Raditz. Let's see what happens between Gohan and Chi-Chi

Being a tiger mom like ChiChi, would she still rather seeing Gohan being alive even though he is Nasu now?

Or maybe the ChiChi we know is the version during peace time (seeing how different future Gohan and Trunks are comparing with the main timeline version)

Well, he had to try.
In theory, what works for Vegetto works for Goku

DestroyerOfVegetards was saying: Gohan kills ChiChi in cold blood, the Saiyans massacre the Z-fighters and all of humanity, end of story XD. These alternate timeline stories usually have depressing endings.


I agree. Realistically, I dont think Chichi would be able to change him.

And if by some miracle they survive this. Gohan won't be their ally per say.

That being said these are the parts of a Story where you are allowed to give a little leeway and with good buildup and reasoning, maybe Gohan could remember.



Noirium was saying: Not what I expected after seeing Trunks' shoes.

I know. It was a pretty damn good trick. I won't overhype it, but he did get us good.




ap2007 was saying: Still dont know why people thought trunks was coming ... goku dies whole story changed gero who watched goku to get revenge saw him die

You saying this makes me realize we're all a bunch of idiots lol. GGs for catching that and not being like the rest of us XD

Teleported_Bread was saying: Damian Qualshy was saying: I see he's still unreasonably weaker then?
Ok that's a bit gun-jumpy if he got hit once, even though I agree Trunks should've at least blocked that. Choreography isn't perfect.

Yeah I guess DBS Trunks is slow, so I shouldn't have jumped to that conclusion. So if they really are equally matched now then it's fine.

I see he's still unreasonably weaker then?

kingworld was saying: ZenBuu was saying: kingworld was saying: The Italian dialogues, which are the originals, are so much better for this page:
"I managed to develop this form because my body surpassed its limits, thus this innate characteristic I have resonated with all the elements..."
"What was missing was a real danger: that's why I left you transform into Rosé. I needed a trigger, a real threat to trigger the form."
But the Italian version isn't the original though? It's the French version afaik, that's also why the pages get exported correctly there and not here in English. Even though the English version is completely uploaded somewhere else.

So basically some Italian translator made all that up? Though I gotta say, it does make more sense, but I also always say: respect the source material. Because the dialogue you sent is much different, than what we have here (and also on all other languages which this comic is translated into, so Italian is the exception).

I could be completely wrong, but Chibi Dam'Z is from France, I don't know about Mirai Channel95. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm almost entirely sure Mirai Channel 95 Is Italian. In the Italian section, they themselves commented more than once on how they edited multiple dialogues to make them clearer.
Thanks for this info. I guess I need to rely on the Italian version while translating then, instead of French. I just wish I would've known this earlier, now I have to revisit every page that was already released again...

Is this a hxh crossover? ;)

obserwator was saying: Is this a hxh crossover? ;)
hxh, naruto, many asian manga and manhwas use this trope. But it's far to late to start using it successfully in Dragonball...

"rage boost" was a Gohan specific feature (I. E. Vs raditz, vs nappa, vs frieza, etc)

It wasn't shown in other half saiyan (goten, trunks) and nowhere in Canon was it satted to be a hybrid saiyan feature

Delphince was saying: Art's really on point.

My reasoning was always that human-saiyan hybrids are more empathetic—they CARE about more than themselves. It's the human component; saiyan nature is far more selfish. But mixed with a saiyan's contempt for loss, it's a volatile combination. With the "pain of loss" being a critical component of becoming a super saiyan, that's why the transformation was so extraordinary among purebloods: it was rare for them to have a situation where something they deeply cared about was lost. The only thing they would ever feel was taken from them was a victory in a fight, and typically by the time that set in, they'd be on the brink of death. Even Goku was resistant; despite his good nature, he had trouble looking beyond his personal desires, and his optimism smothered any fears of failure.

Meanwhile, the hybrids remain keenly aware of family, friends, responsibility, and dedication to ideals. Being more in tune with their emotions from their human side, they have far more opportunity to experience an emotional break. If they feel they can take control of the situation, you just get a power spike; but if they feel helpless in the face of something they cherish being irrevocably taken away—be it a friend's life or a core ideal—the tide rises with no outlet until the dam breaks, and you get a super saiyan.

I like this alot! It is well thought out and makes alot of sense to me!

ZenBuu was saying: King Kindred was saying: Yeah, the art has been phenomenal in this story. I would love a DBM special from the artist if there hasn't been one already.
The artist is "Chibi Dam'Z" who has drawn
Chapter 16 from DBM, but that was 14 years ago. Here is his DeviantArt Account if anyone is interested.

It's true, he improved a lot with his art. It looks really great, but the story just isn't for me, since it's about DBS. And I think it's widely known by now, how I think about anything DBS related. ;P
Uh…how are you even reading this chapter??? Are you not in another dimension right now??? Go check on Uub since you have so much time sir!

iron leaf was saying: Interesting detail. XXI counts in years, not minutes. The paneling looks cool on this page. You could bring that in more often. And nice to see Eleim for a change.
Kinda dumb imo bc years is an earth measurement. Anyone from a different planet/galaxy/universe won't know what 'years' mean to us. But whatever is what we use and this is something kinda consistent even in Hollywood movies

Is it really called SSJ0 or Ultimate Goku?

Teleported_Bread was saying: Damian Qualshy was saying: Teleported_Bread was saying: ZGrssd was saying: "Offensive Ultra Instinct"?
Definitely not. Besides, UI can already change into an offensive stance, once it's been mastered.

SaiyansLegend was saying: Oh... so he couldn't go ssj rage cuz he didn't master it until he's pushed in a fight


Mustard was saying: So he wasn't out of character after all. He just had to do it this way in order to stand a chance.
Exactly! I couldn't talk about this at all, before, due to the guidelines, so I'd instead suggested people wait and read to see what happens later.

That is super weird take though, I must say.
Regardless, Trunks would've still be stronger as SS2 than Black without going Rose, I'm sorry for being a nerd.
It's ok. Regardless, we can learn from this, that sometimes we should have faith that an explanation, in this case, could possibly appear later on in a story

True, it's better than nothing. And gives some weight to Rage as well, unlike it becoming just a different Ki aura for Trunks in the Anime.

Teleported_Bread was saying: Wonder how the DBM team's feeling rn, having gotten so far and finally to this moment.

Hector Fenwick was saying: Bombero was saying: Bring back kid Naruto and Delphox man!

Also I’d be funny to see Moro get a cameo since people are calling XXI a Moro clone now.

Moro is a XXL clone, not the other way around. DBM was out long before DBS, and AT obviously got most of his ideas for DBS from DBM.
Moro is the clone, yes, I can believe this, but he's also more watered down and less interesting, to say the least. However, Toriyama definitely didn't get most of his DBS ideas from DBM. Toyotaro just can't write.

I mean. I’m pretty sure we were not aware that XXI was an Energy/ mater eater back when the Moro arc was ongoing.

Unless Toyotaro had backroom access to the DBM files.

Bombero was saying: Bring back kid Naruto and Delphox man!

Also I’d be funny to see Moro get a cameo since people are calling XXI a Moro clone now.

Moro is a XXL clone, not the other way around. DBM was out long before DBS, and AT obviously got most of his ideas for DBS from DBM.

Teleported_Bread was saying: ZGrssd was saying: "Offensive Ultra Instinct"?
Definitely not. Besides, UI can already change into an offensive stance, once it's been mastered.

SaiyansLegend was saying: Oh... so he couldn't go ssj rage cuz he didn't master it until he's pushed in a fight


Mustard was saying: So he wasn't out of character after all. He just had to do it this way in order to stand a chance.
Exactly! I couldn't talk about this at all, before, due to the guidelines, so I'd instead suggested people wait and read to see what happens later.

But this suggests that he still should've transformed instantly unless it means that Goku Black had to be using his god ki in order for Trunks to transform.

Teleported_Bread was saying: ZGrssd was saying: "Offensive Ultra Instinct"?
Definitely not. Besides, UI can already change into an offensive stance, once it's been mastered.

SaiyansLegend was saying: Oh... so he couldn't go ssj rage cuz he didn't master it until he's pushed in a fight


Mustard was saying: So he wasn't out of character after all. He just had to do it this way in order to stand a chance.
Exactly! I couldn't talk about this at all, before, due to the guidelines, so I'd instead suggested people wait and read to see what happens later.

That is super weird take though, I must say.
Regardless, Trunks would've still be stronger as SS2 than Black without going Rose, I'm sorry for being a nerd.

"Offensive Ultra Instinct"?

Oh... so he couldn't go ssj rage cuz he didn't master it until he's pushed in a fight

So he wasn't out of character after all. He just had to do it this way in order to stand a chance.

Teleported_Bread was saying: Aaand here we go! Here's the explanation everybody's been hungry for regarding Rage's apparent absence. I didn't say anything to respect the guidelines. Hopefully everyone who'd been asking stuck around.
This doesn't explain anything though, my dude.

The theory was that Trunks was exposed to Blue from Goku and Vegeta that he himself adapted/absorbed it into his Super Saiyan. It does work with how he somehow managed to create a Spirit Bomb, but not exactly, because.. He never saw the technique being done or probably even mentioned? So while he doesn't know what Spirit Bomb is or how it works, he did it unconsciously and before that he did the exact same thing with God Ki to boost himself, possibly by absorbing it from either his father, Goku or even Black himself.

"It's fine. My head is still attached."

Teleported_Bread was saying: Aaaand he's dead, too. Wait, I just realized that Yamcha is the last one standing.
Btw, should the Z-Fighters really be losing? They had around nine extra years than in the main timeline to train for the Saiyans, and the Saiyans probably shouldn't be much stronger if all they did was continue to wipe out planetary populations, since they normally don't train. Or something like that. What's more, Gohan should probably be strong enough to do most of the killing here for being half-Saiyan and Goku's son.

Ten years of consistent training. Even if it was just with Mr Popo atop Kami's Lookout, that's still a unique environment in the upper atmosphere with training partners, one of them being a mystical genie like figure. I can understand them not reaching the levels seen during the Namek/Freeza arcs, but to have this much difficulty where most of them can't even properly match Nappa? It's minimalist.

DesLife was saying: King Kindred was saying:

Except this is not DB Manga canon. This is Goten-Kun's own personal canon. The Mafuba was never stopped the way Nappa just did it and goes against everything we know about the technique from the source. If the Mafuba hits you, you're being sucked up into the vortex of magical energy. Whether you end up sealed after that is up to the user.

It could very well work against an opponent like Nappa but the opposite is also true. Both can be valid since neither outcome aren't contradicted by the manga (the mafuba has never been used against someone stronger than 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai Piccolo).
Think of it like the Dragon Balls which are stated to grant ANY wish but got more and more limitations through the manga.
I prefer this version of Mafuba since it also explains why such a powerful technique hasn't been used after Piccolo.

There's already simple explanations for why it's not used after Piccolo.

1. Only Roshi, Piccolo/Kami, and Tien knew it.

2. Piccolo died protecting Gohan before he could really even attempt to use it against Nappa.

3. Tien knew the risk outweighed the reward after seeing Roshi die using it, King Piccolo escaping the bottle, and Piccolo Jr reversing it against Kami.

4. As for the Androids and Buu the Saiyans wanted to fight the threats, not go for cheap ways for victories.

Teleported_Bread was saying: Osha was saying: So we get an entire chapter of SSJ1 Trunks holding back for no reason, getting his shit wrecked, then one panel of happy slaps in SSJ2 only for him to FINALLY stop fucking around like he should be expected to. Author ain't cooking (nothing against the artist, he's just doing the panels and has nothing to do with the sloppy writing).
Trunks not going all out from the start IS a more obvious flaw, but I think we're being a bit too critical about it. It's not 'sloppy writing', especially if it's just this one problem.

Shabby was saying: What is that form?

"Super Saiyan Plothole"
One of many plotholes in the anime that can be potentially explained rather or at least considerably easily if you use your imagination (generally speaking, I'm not saying anything about you specifically, er, in case I at all sounded like that just now...)

Yeah. People were told/shown how Trunks obtained god ki to unlock Super Saiyan Rage but they still act like it's a plot hole or asspull. He became a Kai in training and trained/sparred with Vegeta while he was in Super Saiyan Blue. That's enough for him to unlock an unstable variant of Blue out of rage.

The question is if he could even use this form at will in the first place. It's possible that the form's usage in this comic is "unstable", as such he needed a trigger.

Which could also lead to him explaining stuff about the form, because... we don't know anything about it, do we?

Majin Wasabi was saying: Honestly, I don’t really like the logic you gave to the technique, GotenKun, but I’ll give you credit for at least not ignoring it like Toriyama always did. That move was always an option, yet conveniently forgotten. Against Cell or Buu, Piccolo, Roshi or Krillin never even brought it up. So I’ll give you that — you found a way to include it and still make it ineffective.

Everyone in DB universe aren't that stupid.

Last pannel: IMA FIRA MUH LASOR!!!!!

So we get an entire chapter of SSJ1 Trunks holding back for no reason, getting his shit wrecked, then one panel of happy slaps in SSJ2 only for him to FINALLY stop fucking around like he should be expected to. Author ain't cooking (nothing against the artist, he's just doing the panels and has nothing to do with the sloppy writing).

What is that form?

"Super Saiyan Plothole"

Teleported_Bread was saying:
I guess sealing isn't everyone's style (a logic I like to apply to Krillin when people wonder why he doesn't just use the Kienzan more), not to mention the Mafuba requires a container. Wouldn't it become potentially problematic if Goku and everyone met all these villains and opted to sealing them in a jar or something? Other than disposing of or storing the container with the talisman, what if any of them breaks out, or worse, all of them? At least with Zamasu in the DBS anime, he was immortal and strong.
I still don’t agree. Maybe it’s not Goku or Vegeta’s style, but when the threat is as big as Cell or Buu, characters like Piccolo or Krillin would’ve done whatever was necessary. Krillin even tried the Kienzan against Cell, even if it didn’t work — and against Buu, it was probably pointless. It’s just a technique that was conveniently forgotten by everyone. So even if I’m not a big fan of GotenKun’s explanation, at least it gives a reason why it’s not being used in such a critical situation.

Yeah, sorry Goten-Kun, your reasoning for the Mafuba not working isn't really creative or anything and instead just bad writing. I get a lot of DB manga creators hate DB Super, but when there's a literal scene where the Mafuba works on someone as strong as Zamasu (which at the very minimum is as strong as Super Perfect Cell) you can't just say the Mafuba doesn't work cause you say so. At least acknowledge its bad writing on your part because you can't think of a scenario around it (when you could've just, you know, not included the Mafuba entirely).


Anyway, time to see the basics of torture smut now, cause all that's left is milking the Saiyans killing the Humans.

That's kind of ridiculous. Since when could you just overpower the Mafuba like that? If this doesn't work then the avenues for the humans to succeed have been limited severely, if not almost entirely closed off.

Honestly, I don’t really like the logic you gave to the technique, GotenKun, but I’ll give you credit for at least not ignoring it like Toriyama always did. That move was always an option, yet conveniently forgotten. Against Cell or Buu, Piccolo, Roshi or Krillin never even brought it up. So I’ll give you that — you found a way to include it and still make it ineffective.

Wait...but.....that shouldn't make sense.....you cant just break out of it....if thats the case, zamasu wouldve been to just break out of trunks mafuba

Gotta give it some of that hawk tsuaaaaaah

How is namek strong as a frost demon

Is chilled that weak?

King Kindred was saying: XXI has been breaking the rules the entire tournament by using his own set of Dragon Balls to cheat and he's now infecting other universes.
That's not against the rules nor it's cheating.

Remember that South Kaioshin is being mind controlled. It would make sense at least.

Damian Qualshy was saying: Teleported_Bread was saying: kcheeb was saying: Form he should've used in page 24 to annihilate black without even giving him chance to react or power I up

Real canon trunks would take zero risk or give enemty any opportunity. This fanfic destroyed trunks character
'Destroyed' is a bit dramatic, just because his approach to combat was confused.

It's completely out of character is what's important. Even anime Trunks immediately went to Rage against Black when he had the chance instead of going slowly through forms.

This and on top of that this is a Trunks who literally JUST lost everything. If that's not enough to go instant rage when you see Black again, I don't know what is.


And the chapter being called Prelude to the Catastrophe does not leave me confident about Trunks' future.

Yeah....I dunno. The art for this comic is fantastic. Enjoying that, and the premise of this is pretty good as well.

But the way it's being handled is a little bad I think. Like everyone else has said it's just so far removed from what we know of how Trunks is. The ONLY time I can recall of him ever holding back against a world threat was against Semi-Perfect Cell, and that was just to try and save Vegeta's ego. The androids upon his return? He merc'd them. Cell? Obliterated, even though he already disposed of the androids and Cell had nothing to absorb, he knew the threat that Cell posed if he were to somehow escape and he completely overwhelmed and crushed him, and quickly. It doesn't make any sense that he would allow Black, who was a bigger threat than anything he's faced before, the time to transform, or even worse somehow manage to escape. The way Trunks is written here, just is not in line with how he has handled similar situations in the past, consistently. It's reminding me of the writing choices for that Broly comic haha. Good premise and a neat idea for a story, but not executed well at all here just because it doesn't fit at all with how these characters have been built up and shown to behave.

Form he should've used in page 24 to annihilate black without even giving him chance to react or power I up

Real canon trunks would take zero risk or give enemty any opportunity. This fanfic destroyed trunks character

See, so he does have Rage.

Teleported_Bread was saying: Damian Qualshy was saying: Hell yeah, at least not a bootleg which Cabba has.
Cabba is Vegeta's counterpart in U6, of course he'd have a move like Vegeta's Galick Gun. It's different here if this is supposed to be Vegeta's ancestor.

Yes but U6 Saiyans are supposed to be THESE ones. I mean at least almost the same as the ancient Saiyans because they evolved differently.
Cabba having a "Galick Cannon" which is different only in the name is kind of cheesy imo.

Koshej was saying: Damian Qualshy was saying: Zenkais
I think that this may be the only "master plan" possible for Trunks:
He wants to fight the strongest possible opponent BECAUSE such a fight would give him (Trunks himself) the best zenkai boost.
It's a gamble, and a rather stupid one at it, but it may be something smarter than "just give your opponent all the trumps".
Basically, this MAY be Trunks trying to leverage "free zenkai boost" in case some FUTURE evil happens to be even STRONGER than Zamasu.
Dumb-ish, unnecessarily risky, but not exactly "purely Saiyan stupidity".
In fact, even Vegeta might have been thinking similarly in his cases.
I mean, by then it was quite established that new stronger bosses kept appearing inevitably, lol.
It sounds and even feels like a joke... but who knows?

Trunks has no way of healing out of such fight and Zamasu wouldn't let him live regardless since he already killed the previous Trunks.

This is an ultra risky gamble that's also out of character for Trunks. Vegeta only did it against Freeza and maybe in HTC the first time but after Goku proved him wrong then even he gave up on that.

Trunks also never used that argument when fighting the cyborg, but he and Gohan already knew about Zenkais.

I think it's no matter if Trunks allow Black to transform or not. If you have transformation already, you can't be tricked and killed before you turn it on, right? You had power from start.

I'm kind of on the side of others that Trunks should be the no nonsense type and kill Black without giving him a chance to power up, but at the same time I would like to see Goku Black be humiliated. But I just don't think Trunks is strong enough compared to Black to pull that off. He's gotta finish him off NOW while he still can. I hope he does and in brutal fashion and maybe that'll be worth the stress over this whole ordeal.

Teleported_Bread was saying: Damian Qualshy was saying: They should have traveled to before he unlocked Rose. It makes no sense that he has it mastered already or that he even knows how to use it at all. Regardless, he should be weaker than this Trunks.
They didn't and couldn't specify when they would appear. The story's plot is a take on Trunks and Mai traveling to the new version of their timeline/future, where they exist already, in accordance to the ending of the anime's version of the arc. It shows that Whis wasn't being so literal when he said they would have to live with their counterparts, which I think makes perfect sense since he sometimes likes to do a little trolling (even with the truth) and there being two of somebody living in the same timeline most definitely breaks some sort of cosmic law. I do admit that Goku Black shouldn't be able to tap into Rosé if he hadn't fought Goku already, so the best hypothetical explanation I could think of would be that Zamasu did some things solo in a bid to tap into more of Goku's body's power.

DrowsyBean was saying: Okay, I initially thought Trunks and Nai traveled to an era before black unlocked rose, but this run seems to be a combo of both the anime and manga as we never saw black go ssj in the anime. And trunks being even with black is a really bad sign considering blacks stupid growth rate. Ssj rage honestly won't be enough in my opinion against rose. We saw ssj rage get obliterated immediately.
Trunks and Mai were supposed to have traveled to a time where Goku Black never came to be because the Zamasu of Goku's timeline was Destroyed by Beerus before he could kill Gowasu, steal the Time Ring and use the Super Dragon Balls to swap bodies with Goku. It was stated that a deity killing another has a more concrete effect on the timeline, but also that the Time Ring Goku Black wears on his finger protects him and by extension his own alterations to the timeline from any changes made . This story states that Trunks's use of his time machine once again caused a distortion like when he went to the past to warn about the Cyborgs, this time causing the deaths of their counterparts in the new future by Goku Black to be written. I can believe in the idea of the time machine potentially causing a distortion on a different level of severity since nothing says the level of change is fixed, not to mention Trunks has never traveled to a time where a version of himself exists already (not counting Kid Trunks, who lived a very different life to say the least and I think therefore diverges enough from the Future Trunks we know on a cosmic level), however I do not know why Goku Black is here. My best guess for that would be because (and I'm stretching it a bit here) A, they think this Goku Black is the Zamasu of this timeline and there's another reason, or B, since the new future is pretty much a duplicate of the original main timeline Trunks come from, more or less, likely coupled with their arrival via the time machine, this Goku Black came to be due to a distortion. If I'm right about the former, it would probably be a worthwhile foundation for an explanation on why he is so strong, despite never having fought Goku.
Speaking of which, the reason for Goku Black's insane growth seems to heavily be implied to be the result of a paradox. Every time Goku Black's power grows like that, it's when he and Goku are in the same timeline. It seems to cause some sort of resonance effect that allows Zamasu to tap into and mingle more of/with the power and potential in Goku's body along with his own. Both bodies are essentially nearly the same Goku right down to their age. It's a little difficult to put into words but there's definitely something more going on than just 'oh Goku Black just gets stronger', like the stolen body Zamasu inhabits is 'adapting' to the presence and strength of the other Goku, or something similar to that effect.

That's a lot of text (which I'm sorry I'm too lazy to read fully, not to discredit your thoughts or anything though) for simple misunderstanding of vague Whis' words. I don't remember how it was said exactly (in both continuities) but I never thought that Trunks would travel to a timeline where Black didn't show up. On the contrary, he would appear in a copy of his own timeline BEFORE Black shows up, so around the Babidi and Dabura fight, and then contact Whis via Shin, who in this case would be saved by Future Future Trunks.

I might obviously be talking out of my ass because, as I said, I don't remember the exact words though.


Anyway, as for Trunks' power, he should be stronger than initially because he also got Zenkais from the fights (alongside Goku and Vegeta) and a new form on top of that.

Hell yeah, at least not a bootleg which Cabba has.

Damian Qualshy was saying: DrowsyBean was saying: Okay, I initially thought Trunks and Nai traveled to an era before black unlocked rose, but this run seems to be a combo of both the anime and manga as we never saw black go ssj in the anime. And trunks being even with black is a really bad sign considering blacks stupid growth rate. Ssj rage honestly won't be enough in my opinion against rose. We saw ssj rage get obliterated immediately.

They should have traveled to before he unlocked Rose. It makes no sense that he has it mastered already or that he even knows how to use it at all. Regardless, he should be weaker than this Trunks.

I agreed that Black should not have Rose, because it makes no sense within the context of the story/timeline in relation to its source material.

As far as him being weaker than Trunks, that still may not be the case here. It, ofc, all depends on which Trunks they're using; manga or anime. If it's the manga, Trunks' SSJ2 form was as strong if not mildly stronger than Black Saga SSJ3 Goku BEFORE he got Zenkai's (if he even could anymore) from the fights with Zamasu when he took Goku and Vegeta back with him.

But, that was as tough as he got. He was not really able to stand up to Rose in the manga. In the anime, his Rage form however, was as strong if not slightly stronger than Rose.

So if it is manga Trunks, and the author follows actual plot progression (like they're not doing with Rose xD), than Trunks SHOULD be quite a bit weaker, even at his best. If it's anime Trunks, he should be stronger, yes. Agreed.

Imagine if Crilin simply used another kienzan...

They should have traveled to before he unlocked Rose. It makes no sense that he has it mastered already or that he even knows how to use it at all. Regardless, he should be weaker than this Trunks.

Okay, I initially thought Trunks and Nai traveled to an era before black unlocked rose, but this run seems to be a combo of both the anime and manga as we never saw black go ssj in the anime. And trunks being even with black is a really bad sign considering blacks stupid growth rate. Ssj rage honestly won't be enough in my opinion against rose. We saw ssj rage get obliterated immediately.

Alrighty
Trunks is so gonna regret this

Teleported_Bread was saying:
Nobody. Just asked cause, if that was in character, I thought it would be a potential explanation to backup Trunks... behaving like this in this story. Goku Black being different from the Cyborgs and Imperfect Cell works but it can only explain so much, so for everything else, the best idea I've got so far is that (hypothetically) he's making defeating Goku Black personal, because of the things Zamasu did across the cosmos out of ego. I just know that Trunks isn't here for the thrill of the fight, something that isn't being conveyed despite everything, so I kinda wish people would stop using words like 'toying' when talking about the fight's writing.
I also know the story can be much worse. There are worse fights on this site so Idk why they're not being addressed, other than the idea that it's because this one takes place in DBS and the others don't, but that's another topic. I enjoy Inexorable Distortion because of its concept, and it shows something I've said about DBS for years, that it's salvageable and its issues can be explained away and what not with what it's given us/has already without rewriting the story entirely.
Every story can be "much worse". That doesn't take away from the mistakes this one is making, nor does it invalidate other people's opinions, points, or facts on the matter.

The idea that Trunks is doing all this because he's "making defeating Black personal" also doesn't make sense within his character because that's EXACTLY what killing the androids in his timeline was: personal. And he didn't do it to them. When he was able, he just straight up killed them. No risk, no chance, just Justice and revenge for everyone they killed, especially Gohan.

And it's also weird to say "there are worse fights on this site so idk why they're not being addressed" when A this story isn't about those fights, so it isn't odd for them not to be discussed here, and B they WERE discussed in their respective comments section at length xD. So many complaints and deleted posts by mods. So yeah... that was a bit of a silly thing to say xD.

In the end, the author has made some choices so far that don't make sense with the characters we know and how things played out in the manga or anime. This is not an opinion, it is fact. Again, I said "that don't make sense with characters we know". This isn't Trunks' style in any form of DB continuity. Can't say I've even seen him like this in any fan manga until here. And Black should not have Rose given the circumstances of how he had unlocked it previously in both the manga and anime versions. So this is on its own adding in its own explanation/set of rules. That is also a fact.

Ofc, we'll see where the plot and everything leads and what the author's vision entails, and the concept of the story isn't bad. But these complaints are valid for good reason. Yeah, it's a free fan manga, and I can 100% agree with its quality that the author put in some hard work, no doubt. But people are entitled to their opinions and complaints and expression even with free content. They shouldn't demand stuff or insult the author, no no no. But opinions shouldn't be discouraged (not saying you were, just a reminder to all).

Teleported_Bread was saying: Teleported_Bread was saying: kcheeb was saying: Damian Qualshy was saying: Yeah so he shouldn't have Rosé yet, and we already know that other part.
Also it's still not in character for Trunks.

For reals if it is real trunks we know, he would've immediately rushed black with ssj2 and killed him in page 24

No reason to even give him a second to react. Bc trunka knows how dangerous black can be
Do you think it'd be in character for Trunks to ever wanna humiliate his opponent, ever?

Who in the HFIL mentioned humiliating Black at all here??
Nobody. Just asked cause, if that was in character, I thought it would be a potential explanation to backup Trunks... behaving like this in this story. Goku Black being different from the Cyborgs and Imperfect Cell works but it can only explain so much, so for everything else, the best idea I've got so far is that (hypothetically) he's making defeating Goku Black personal, because of the things Zamasu did across the cosmos out of ego. I just know that Trunks isn't here for the thrill of the fight, something that isn't being conveyed despite everything, so I kinda wish people would stop using words like 'toying' when talking about the fight's writing.
I also know the story can be much worse. There are worse fights on this site so Idk why they're not being addressed, other than the idea that it's because this one takes place in DBS and the others don't, but that's another topic. I enjoy Inexorable Distortion because of its concept, and it shows something I've said about DBS for years, that it's salvageable and its issues can be explained away and what not with what it's given us/has already without rewriting the story entirely.

There have been plenty of people complaining about various works on this site, so I don't know what you're talking about. The only fault this one does so far is mischaracterizing Trunks completely, as well as making Black more powerful than he should at this point. No amount of paradoxes would do that.

King Kindred was saying: Thank God they're still alive. But it's official South Kai is under XXI's control. It's weird though since we didn't actually see him give him anything or infect him with his aura. Just told him to check out their room.

And it seems Raditz doesn't feel the effects of his awakening so we haven't seen his power yet.

I don't see any concrete evidence to suggest he is under control. If he were, it would make more sense that he would have killed them.

So basically, he's a pale copy of Goku.

Teleported_Bread was saying: kcheeb was saying: Damian Qualshy was saying: Yeah so he shouldn't have Rosé yet, and we already know that other part.
Also it's still not in character for Trunks.

For reals if it is real trunks we know, he would've immediately rushed black with ssj2 and killed him in page 24

No reason to even give him a second to react. Bc trunka knows how dangerous black can be
Do you think it'd be in character for Trunks to ever wanna humiliate his opponent, ever?

Who in the HFIL mentioned humiliating Black at all here??

I'm confused, did Black just insta-poof into Rose (as maybe indicated by the flame lines? I don't recall the b/w visual que)? "This transformation" sounds like Black is Rose, though Trunks definitely wouldn't pull a Vegeta. Now, lull an opponent into a sense of security so they power up just to be hit by a devastating surprise attack? That's Future Trunks style.

Damian Qualshy was saying: Yeah so he shouldn't have Rosé yet, and we already know that other part.
Also it's still not in character for Trunks.

For reals if it is real trunks we know, he would've immediately rushed black with ssj2 and killed him in page 24

No reason to even give him a second to react. Bc trunka knows how dangerous black can be

Mustard was saying: Oh, now I see what's going on. If Black has Rosé, he could quickly transform and possibly get Trunks off guard. It's smart to conserve energy at first so that doesn't happen.

What you're all forgetting is that in all of the situations you're referencing Trunks was definitively stronger than the opponent. That's not the case here, so a different approach is understandable.

He is. He is stronger, because he already fought Black after Zenkai grind and who fought Goku and Vegeta. This one didn't. This Black is only as strong as SS2 Goku (which is already behind Trunks without Rage) and doesn't have Rose.

Teleported_Bread was saying:
You assume too much. He's not 'playing with his food'
Kinda hard to not "assume" when every bit of canonical content involving him shows him never holding back or messing around in any way. Sorry but this is just building up fake tension and no amount of you trying to defend it will change that.

I’m sorry, this sucks ass. Trunks would absolutely never do this, ABSOLUTELY not in a scenario as obviously dire as this one. I don’t buy it, not even remotely.

Why is Trunks who was so efficient in defeating cell and android the moment he returned from the past, playing with his food. I understand he want's revange but he knows he still can loose right? It's not like he is several levels above Black. Also doesn't he know Black doesn't know how to Transform as he learned it from Goku and Vegeta?

kcheeb was saying: Doesn't make sense he wasn't using ssj2 from beginning

Trunks isn't some one wbo enjoys battle fighting around in lower form. He's type of guy who fights life death situation and use max possible power to win quickly as possible, like how he killed 17 818 and cell

First rule of analyzing stories is remembering they are stories. As Stan Lee said, who would win between Iron Man and Spider-Man? Whoever the heck I want to win, I’m writing the story.

South Kai is beyond ssj2 in terms of raw power but not at ssj3. I can see Raditz being able to deal with him with difficulty

If Elder Kai thinks Raditz should of been able to beat South Kai, I do not think that is the real South Kai or a mind-control/augmented version or some illusion of XXI. Otherwise this has been one hell of a waste of buildup for Raditz...

Teleported_Bread was saying: Damian Qualshy was saying: Teleported_Bread was saying: Volonte was saying: Teleported_Bread was saying: This is the same manga that tried to give an explanation for why the writers stopped addressing when Goku and Vegeta got their own Zenkai Boosts, even though both Goku bodies are from points in time that aren't that far apart from each other at all. Toyotaro is realllly bad and reckless with power levels, but one of his worst offenses in that category was in the same arc, being one of the Supreme Kais comparing Vegito's strength to Beerus, the character whose full power is ambiguous on purpose.

Yeaahhhhh, Super def has some jank power scaling across the board, both Toei's and Toyotaro's versions, and especially in this arc. I always personally felt like Toyotaro's variation was at least the better of the two, considering the things that both sources share were likely direct notes from Toriyama, his depictions were at least more grounded.
The DBS anime leaned into the fact that the story first took place years after Buu, so Goku would have gotten stronger. Introducing God Ki would have naturally given Goku a larger boost as a representation of his ascension via Super Saiyan God, but Saiyan biology and (mostly) the prospect of training with those on the high divine level of the cosmos showed that Goku could possibly surpass his new God form. This also meant Goku and Vegeta, alone, needed to face stronger opponents, so after Beerus - who won and never showed his true strength, we get Frieza if he decided to actually train (literally everything he'd ever done and every feat he had demonstrated was pure natural potential with zero effort until the final battle on a vanishing Namek), before being formally introduced to the multiverse and therefore the possibility of strong opponents with unique training methods or strange powers like Hit with his Time Skip/assassination background or the Trio de Danger with their energies that seemingly isn't even ki. Then in filler arcs we'd get stuff like Copy Vegeta, and through Goku Black we had a rouge deity like Zamasu combine his power with Goku's stolen body who would later fuse with his future counterpart, and so on. The anime's power levels did go crazy here and there, but at least it felt like it could grasped and understood, like a pattern could be found. But I can never agree with somebody when they say the manga did power levels better, because it didn't. Toyotaro made Blue so complex and convoluted that it almost seemed pointless to have, likely in an unnecessary effort to give Super Saiyan God more spotlight. He'd boldly and recklessly compare Vegito's power level against Fused Zamasu to Beerus, as I mentioned, but it was still an amateur writing decision. Then in his post-Tournament of Power arcs, he'd make UI Goku go uncharacteristically all-out on Earth against Moro - something I say because there's a part in his fight against Moro with mastered UI where he punches him while in midair which causes this massive planet-wide blast of hurricane-force wind, a force of power we never see with Ultra Instinct on such a widely enveloping scale, and I remember I had a problem with this moment cause Goku is supposed to care about collateral damage even knowing the Dragon Balls can fix everything and thought it was out of character to risk getting others hurt in the process like that, feeling flashy and powerful for the sake of being flashy and powerful. We see him accidentally destroy a nearby city while fighting Majin Buu as SSJ3 in Z, but that was when he was seemingly more or less cornered atop being winded and low on time in the living world. We also saw Moro copy Angel powers without it being a dud, something that should be impossible, and later fuse with the Earth. Oh, and don't even get me started on Black Frieza, TUI and Ultra Ego - those crap forms shouldn't even exist, and the first mentioned made an entire arc feel like a waste of time by one-shotting Goku and Vegeta instantly while they were apparently at their strongest ever according to Toyotaro.
Very basically, I'll take the anime's any day. Even in the face of its flaws, the DBS anime always felt salvageable, like you could add or fill in something here or there to make things truly work out or make sense without rewriting anything entirely.

So when anime continues with the arcs that manga already did, you will suddenly like them simply because it's anime version now?
It strongly depends on what the anime does. I suspect three possibilities, since both are different continuities: The anime will make its own arcs, the anime will adapt the manga (which I don't want), or the anime will adapt the manga but make a LOT of changes, exclusions and revisions. If they do the last one, it would be so the story fits with the anime continuity as well as to discard of bad writing decisions in the manga, of which there are a lot and they get really bad. And Toei would need to change all of them, because if they leave in some of the bad manga writing, I'm dropping the show entirely, cause it would do Dragon Ball bad, given how damaging the manga is already. To name a few, I want none of the new forms from the Granolah Arc (exclude that arc entirely if possible), I don't want to hear that Kid Buu had God Ki during the final battle despite every mortal being able to sense his ki, no giving Moro a Senzu Bean or Moro copying an Angel's powers, and speaking of Angels, Merus needs to stay dead and not be revived as a mortal for no good reason.

I guess you don't like the original Manga either. Goku getting ridiculous forms, making stupid decisions, people not staying dead..

And I don't know where you got that Kid Buu had God Ki (Evil Buu got the magic powers of Daikaioshin, not his supposed God Ki), but either way.. Goku has God Ki and people can still sense him.

Teleported_Bread was saying: Volonte was saying: Teleported_Bread was saying: This is the same manga that tried to give an explanation for why the writers stopped addressing when Goku and Vegeta got their own Zenkai Boosts, even though both Goku bodies are from points in time that aren't that far apart from each other at all. Toyotaro is realllly bad and reckless with power levels, but one of his worst offenses in that category was in the same arc, being one of the Supreme Kais comparing Vegito's strength to Beerus, the character whose full power is ambiguous on purpose.

Yeaahhhhh, Super def has some jank power scaling across the board, both Toei's and Toyotaro's versions, and especially in this arc. I always personally felt like Toyotaro's variation was at least the better of the two, considering the things that both sources share were likely direct notes from Toriyama, his depictions were at least more grounded.
The DBS anime leaned into the fact that the story first took place years after Buu, so Goku would have gotten stronger. Introducing God Ki would have naturally given Goku a larger boost as a representation of his ascension via Super Saiyan God, but Saiyan biology and (mostly) the prospect of training with those on the high divine level of the cosmos showed that Goku could possibly surpass his new God form. This also meant Goku and Vegeta, alone, needed to face stronger opponents, so after Beerus - who won and never showed his true strength, we get Frieza if he decided to actually train (literally everything he'd ever done and every feat he had demonstrated was pure natural potential with zero effort until the final battle on a vanishing Namek), before being formally introduced to the multiverse and therefore the possibility of strong opponents with unique training methods or strange powers like Hit with his Time Skip/assassination background or the Trio de Danger with their energies that seemingly isn't even ki. Then in filler arcs we'd get stuff like Copy Vegeta, and through Goku Black we had a rouge deity like Zamasu combine his power with Goku's stolen body who would later fuse with his future counterpart, and so on. The anime's power levels did go crazy here and there, but at least it felt like it could grasped and understood, like a pattern could be found. But I can never agree with somebody when they say the manga did power levels better, because it didn't. Toyotaro made Blue so complex and convoluted that it almost seemed pointless to have, likely in an unnecessary effort to give Super Saiyan God more spotlight. He'd boldly and recklessly compare Vegito's power level against Fused Zamasu to Beerus, as I mentioned, but it was still an amateur writing decision. Then in his post-Tournament of Power arcs, he'd make UI Goku go uncharacteristically all-out on Earth against Moro - something I say because there's a part in his fight against Moro with mastered UI where he punches him while in midair which causes this massive planet-wide blast of hurricane-force wind, a force of power we never see with Ultra Instinct on such a widely enveloping scale, and I remember I had a problem with this moment cause Goku is supposed to care about collateral damage even knowing the Dragon Balls can fix everything and thought it was out of character to risk getting others hurt in the process like that, feeling flashy and powerful for the sake of being flashy and powerful. We see him accidentally destroy a nearby city while fighting Majin Buu as SSJ3 in Z, but that was when he was seemingly more or less cornered atop being winded and low on time in the living world. We also saw Moro copy Angel powers without it being a dud, something that should be impossible, and later fuse with the Earth. Oh, and don't even get me started on Black Frieza, TUI and Ultra Ego - those crap forms shouldn't even exist, and the first mentioned made an entire arc feel like a waste of time by one-shotting Goku and Vegeta instantly while they were apparently at their strongest ever according to Toyotaro.
Very basically, I'll take the anime's any day. Even in the face of its flaws, the DBS anime always felt salvageable, like you could add or fill in something here or there to make things truly work out or make sense without rewriting anything entirely.

So when anime continues with the arcs that manga already did, you will suddenly like them simply because it's anime version now?

Teleported_Bread was saying: This is the same manga that tried to give an explanation for why the writers stopped addressing when Goku and Vegeta got their own Zenkai Boosts, even though both Goku bodies are from points in time that aren't that far apart from each other at all. Toyotaro is realllly bad and reckless with power levels, but one of his worst offenses in that category was in the same arc, being one of the Supreme Kais comparing Vegito's strength to Beerus, the character whose full power is ambiguous on purpose.

Yeaahhhhh, Super def has some jank power scaling across the board, both Toei's and Toyotaro's versions, and especially in this arc. I always personally felt like Toyotaro's variation was at least the better of the two, considering the things that both sources share were likely direct notes from Toriyama, his depictions were at least more grounded.

Yamoshi he said go help the others!
If we need someone reacting to every little thing Kamba does then the king can do that for you, go make yourself useful against Chilled or the other infected.