Nueva página de mi versión de la pelea de Goku vs XXI

Looks like they did train in otherworld beforehand it seems :0

Didn't he already make a decision?

AnyEdge was saying: It's clear (now) that XXI should be disqualified for killing Goku.
How'd you manage to:

1 - Acknowledge that you didn't remember the end of the mentioned fights of the comic
2 - Read a list of characters who have killed without being disqualified, and
3 - Be linked to the page listing the rules, showing killing's not against the rules

And still come to this conclusion

Thiln was saying: Probably some of the most flattering writing I've seen of Yamcha on here outside the debacle with I'K'L.

I don't think so. Yamcha does get a lot of wank in Multiverse, considering his fight with 18 and also the Mecha Frieza special where he was fighting off the Frieza soldiers and even saved Gohan from Frieza.
(Not that that's a bad thing, mind you)

Pues tiene pinta que no tiene nada nuevo y que veremos todo lo mostrado anteriormente por XXI y Goku superandolas, hasta que saque su verdadera forma y alli empiece el combate de verdad

Death-Carioca escribió: ¿Zorro?

En inglés lo llama rata y en francés dice fourbe que seria como "tramposo," "farsante," "astuto," "engañoso," or "traicionero". No digo que zorro esté mal pero es un insulto que en España he escuchado muy pocas veces...

(Y no es por ser cansino pero es que las traducciones se me hacen extrañas desde hace un tiempo xD)
>Para el público general

Del 1 al 10 que tan mal está el uso de "viejo zorro" en esta traducción? En particular la sugerencia la hizo el otro traductor, y me pareció adecuada, ya que las páginas están exportadas, tome precauciones y revisé varias veces las traducciones antes de hacerlo, no se editan por cualquier cosa, entonces me gustaría tener feedback adicional, a lo mejor en unas regiones es más común que en otras.

Gracias por aclarar lo último, si, hay un nuevo miembro en el equipo y se está adaptando poco a poco, lo raro es que el es profesor de lengua, nacido y criado toda la vida en España, entonces no se a quien creerle, por eso la encuesta.

Sigh...he waited 30 million years...guess we can wait a bit longer too...

Imagino que el capitulo va a tener cierta importancia o referencia al pasado de Goku en el Db clásico, sino no le encuentro lógica al piccoro y Ten joven junto al jackie chun.

A throwback to all of Gokus former tournament final battles. I love it.

Vegeta did indeed get stronger in the Namek Saga.... through Zenkais. Not training. They can get stronger through battle but the difference is not nearly as impactful as Zenkai and, as we've seen with Goku, pretty negligible over many decades compared to Zenkais and proper training. Just because Vegeta says it doesn't mean it matters when we clearly see and know where he got the majority of his power.

3. Krillin didn't get to train with King Kai and Yamcha got a week with King Kai tops. Tien and Chiaotzu are the only humans who got to train with King Kai for a significant amount of time and it seems to have made no appreciable difference. We also have proof that training together is FACTUALLY superior to just getting Kami's training. I also think it's disingenuous to attribute all of their success, as well as Goku's, to the brief time they had with Kami and

Majin Wasabi was saying: I don’t get why people act like only the humans had 10 years to improve, and not the Saiyans. Why should they be exactly the same strength after a whole decade?Mostly because Vegeta canonically has BARELY improved since he was a toddler and the Saiyans also never trained much if at all. Like really? Saibaman level when KRILLIN can one shot like 3 or 4 of them? Come on, Radditz. Like I said before though, just dropping "dealing with Gohan's temper tantrums really improved our power levels!" would be a solid enough excuse for somewhat decent improvements. Hell, remember how he nearly overpowered third form Freeza after a Guru buff to Saiyan Saga Vegeta level and a senzu to heal his broken neck from Recoome? Even Piccolo wasn't touching third form and Gohan's anger shot him up THAT far. Saiyans having the excuse that Gohan's baby rage was that dangerous and helpful to their growth is a GREAT excuse.

The humans get UNREASONABLY powerful in the manga. Putting Goku's whole life to shame in one year by doing way better than he ever did training with Kami, Tien surviving getting touched by the Androids period, Yamcha being strong enough for Doctor Gero to assume that he's Goku, Krillin surviving a single kick from Perfect Cell. Meanwhile the Saiyans are pulling zenkais out their ass, Super Saiyan forms, and Piccolo gets TWO Namekian fusions. Hell, why did HERCULE survive getting smacked into a plateau by Cell other than Toriyama finding it funny? There no reason any of them should have survived and Tien definitely shouldn't have been able to hold off Cell but he did anyway.

Majin Wasabi was saying: I do think the power scaling makes sense. No matter how much they train, they’re still just humans training like humans. The few times they’ve surpassed normal limits were thanks to outside boosts: Krillin’s potential unlock from the Grand Elder, or training with King Kai. This time, not even Kami was around to guide them.

So, in theory, it should be

Saiyans > Humans.

Even so, these four clearly have a lot of potential — they managed to cut off Nappa's arm, and Raditz seems to be struggling — but they’d still need a better master, or another “potential unlock” moment, to truly reach the next level. (Like u9 clearly trained with king kai)
it doesn't make any sense, they got stronger than raditz in like one year LOL

MUIGogito was saying: kingworld was saying: In which way(s) Toriyama told us in "pretty unambiguous terms" that SSJ3 Goku is stronger than Ultimate Gohan?

In the manga Old Kai says Goku and Vegeta are the two greatest masters in the universe.
Daizenshuu 6 outright calls Goku the strongest hero during his bout with Pure Buu.
In Daizenshuu 7 Goku and Vegeta are called two strongest fighter in the universe.
El Manga Legendario puts Goku and Vegeta as the strongest fighters "in all of space" as no. 1 and 2. in the top 5 it gives.
Chozenshuu 4 calls Goku charging the Genki Dama the strongest guy in the world.
The World of Akira Toriyama exhibit pamphlet calls Goku the strongest warrior.
V-Jump 2018 says Buuhan gained power on par with SS3 Goku, this is actually an upscale for Gohan by equating him to SS3 Goku.
Dragon Ball Super story guide calls Goku the strongest warrior in the universe.
Daima says plainly Goku is the most powerful warrior in the opening sequence. Shin in Daima plainly states there's no one stronger than Goku.
In El Manga Legendario Toriyama is on record saying that he Goku a step ahead of the other Saiyans in terms of power.
In Daizenshuu 4 Toriyama says about Goku *Always of a kind-hearted nature and the strongest person in the universe. Indeed, Goku is number one!*. The expression Toriyama uses for number one always refers to battle power in the manga, guides and AT interviews.
Koyama is on record saying that Goku is the strongest and when asked to clarify if the number one means strength he says says yes.
Toriyama thought the guides are accurate. Daizenshuu 7: *I am ridiculously forgetful, so despite being the author there is lots of stuff even I do not know anymore. It was often quite a nuisance, and I think having this encyclopedia around when the series was still running would have really helped me out. Darn it all. Anyway, my thanks to the staff, and to all Dragon Ball fans.*

I still find it bizarre that we have every guide and extra material agreeing that Goku is stronger with Toriyama saying he's the #1 strongest person in the universe and people still get confused by this. The same goes for Pure Buu who has been consistently described as the strongest Majin making it painfully clear that he's stronger than Super Buu. Buu (Gohan Absorbed) vs Pure Buu is a different beast and very contentious, you can make good arguments for either. Personally, I think Buuhan is above Pure Buu in the manga. But Super Buu? He's toast.

When Old Kai unlocked Gohan's potential, he was the strongest character. There's even a guide (Saikyo Jump but I don't remember the issue) claiming as such comparing him directly to Goku! Goku has simply gotten stronger than Gohan by the time of his fight with Pure Buu and there is literally not a single piece of evidence to the contrary with a myriad of evidence in Goku's favour. I kid you not, there's not a reference to Gohan being stronger all the way up until Super Hero promo material where he says Gohan is actually stronger than anyone which is true because Beast Gohan > UI Goku is hardly contentious.

This is almost as bad as the misconception that Goku returned as the MC in Buu Saga because of ratings or pressure from Shueisha when Toriyama just liked Goku more and is on record saying he's his favourite character.

How much more unambiguous can you get over calling the guy the strongest and #1 repeatedly?
I really appreciate the thoroughness of your answer!
From my side, having never read the Daizenshuu, I base my deductions from the manga only:
— Ultimate Gohan ridicules Super Buy
— Vegeta (when within Super Buy) implies that himself + Goku would NOT be able to stand up against Super Buu
Thus I deduce that Ultimate Gohan > Super Buu > SSJ3 Goku + SSJ2 Vegeta > SSJ3 Goku.
I wonder if the "number one", "best" etc are merely ways to say "he's the best because he's the protagonist", rather than "strongest", even tho at least one of your quotes negates that.
Ultimately... I think that Toriyama really didn't care about these debates at all, and we all are wildly overthinking this, in one way or another. But it's fun, so why not :)

Majin Wasabi was saying: Honestly, I don’t really like the logic you gave to the technique, GotenKun, but I’ll give you credit for at least not ignoring it like Toriyama always did. That move was always an option, yet conveniently forgotten. Against Cell or Buu, Piccolo, Roshi or Krillin never even brought it up. So I’ll give you that — you found a way to include it and still make it ineffective.

To be fair, Cell would know the counter. And Buu, being a fighting savant could possibly figure it out straight away. Narratively, it's not used for the same reason the Kienzen can't kill an opponent, if it's successful then the story is over too fast.

I guess sealing isn't everyone's style (a logic I like to apply to Krillin when people wonder why he doesn't just use the Kienzan more), not to mention the Mafuba requires a container. Wouldn't it become potentially problematic if Goku and everyone met all these villains and opted to sealing them in a jar or something? Other than disposing of or storing the container with the talisman, what if any of them breaks out, or worse, all of them? At least with Zamasu in the DBS anime, he was immortal and strong.

Royaken was saying: Majin Wasabi was saying: Super Gojita 3 was saying: majin buu using the mafuuba on say, freeza would fail because freeza is too strong and so on.
Excuse me, what? How is frieza too strong for Buu? I think you mean the other way around

No no. He meant that even with Buu being much stronger than Frieza, Goten Kuns belief that the Mafuba stops working at a certain point because of the enemies strength means that it wouldn't work on Frieza either way, despite the power gap because Frieza exceeds the cap that Goten Kun believes the technique has.

I don't agree with it having a cap, but even if it did, I don't see Nappa hitting or exceeding it. Personally

correct.

Regardless of who is using the mafuuba, it has a limit, regardless of who is using it.

so even if majin buu used it on freeza, it fails simply because the technique has a limit, not that buu is too weak to use it.

this is not my personal opinion on the technique, but rather goten kuns.

It is a perfectly valid opinion to have, provided it is explained in comic, and it probably will be. so lets just enjoy this awesome fan manga.

majin buu using the mafuuba on say, freeza would fail because freeza is too strong and so on.

I'm confused......


What's up with this art? When are we going to get back to the main storyline artstyle?

Kobun escribió: @sebastapia134
Claro pero funciona como el Rosat no? Afuera pasa poco tiempo pero dentro es mucho. Si fuera al revez, como la dimensión a la que fue enviado Vegetto por XII, no tendría sentido.
Agradecería si alguien puede aclararlo porque no lo entiendo:p
Si, es como el rosat, no se que quiso decir Sebastián, por cada día que pasa Uub probablemente se tira un año o hasta más, habría que calcular basados en las viñetas cuando Buu va a su combate, cuando es encerrado y vuelve, pero asumo que es 1/365 como la rosat o incluso superior a lo mejor 1/3650 ojalá.

Igualmente si sale siendo un supermago asumo que saldrá con juventud eterna también, es una herramienta en la caja de escritor de Salagir y lo puede usar como quiera sin que sea incoherente.

De diplomáticamente nada, el problema es que en la traducción se ha perdido el contexto y han dado un enfoque en Raditz que no es el real. En ningún momento se la ha jugado al Kaioshin, si realmente no quisiera recuperar sus poderes la opción de mandarles a todos de vuelta le beneficia completamente, él quiere volver a ser débil a jornada completa en lugar de ser un mierdas a jornada parcial, realmente le interesa quedarse ahí.

Pero con este enfoque pareciera que Raditz ha vacilado al Kaioshin como quiso cuando es lo más alejado de la realidad.

Tiene el rinnegan de IKL, al inicio del capítulo apareció este, casualidad? No lo creo!

Está es la primera traducción con IA, por favor verifiquen que esté completo el texto y las imágenes estén todas presentes, cualquier corrección me la pueden reportar por aquí o el Discord, mañana leeré el texto, estoy publicando esto para que lo evalúen, vamos a tratar de poner la novela al día ^^

Los capitulos del 130 al 137 no tienen traducción.

Majin Wasabi escribió: Saso, alguna vez retomaran la Novela en español? En ingles acaba de continuar y es una perspectiva mucho mas completa se todo lo que va pasando en la historia.
Justamente ayer pregunté en el Discord pero nadie se ofreció, personalmente ya con todos los cómics que mantengo en español y ahora las correcciones de francés a inglés tengo de sobra, pero en efecto, yo la leí en francés hace días cuando salió, de hecho, si alguien tiene los capitulos del 146 al 166 traducidos y me guía a ellos, los puedo subir, creo recordar que Fran traujo algunos.
Edit:Se me ocurre algo, podría traducir todo con IA y luego en los comentarios cada persona va corrigiendo lo que vea mal y yo voy editando hasta que quede bien, la novela de todos.

juan escribió: Hay algo que no me cierra para nada. Por qué el XXI podría viajar entre universos si zen boo que en teoría tiene el poder de las esferas o superior no puede? No debería ser algo que supere sus poderes por consiguiente?
Probablemente el deseo sería que lo haga nativo del U1 para a continuación robarse o pedir integrar la tecnología de viaje entre universos en su cuerpo.

El salseo sobre forofgold está potente XDD, en fin

Hablando sobre el reclutamiento de XXI, quitando a Vegetto que siempre hay baiteo con lo que va a hacer que pierda su cabeza, los tops que tendría serian este vegeta U13, Coldnyu del u8 y posiblemente cell y sus cell jrs...de ahi en segunda linea kakarotto, freezer, cooler y A17 y A18...y si nappa tendra su powerup, puede que los soldados tochos del ejercito de los demonios del frio lo tendrán, aunque lo veria ya innecesario, teniendo a sus jefes le basta

De ahi pueden salir algunos versus interesantes dependiendo del aumento de poder

(immortality aside, Zamasu should be Buuhan level and he was never a real threat)

Yo Mismo Quien Si No escribió: Ya sabemos de donde sale el Cold de ojos negros de la paigna de Saso.

Eh!!

existe la posibilidad de que el Vegetto que vemos en las visiones sea formado por Vegeta y Kakaroto, aunque es poco probable ya que aún asi lo fuera faltaría explicar su indumentaria

Oooh... Eso explica aquella página filtrada

Increíble la pag filtrada todo cuadra

no tiene sentido de que las esferas puedan conceder el viajar entre universos, si Zenbu no ha podido

Es lindo tenerte por aquí traduciendo los comentarios, gracias :), buenas teorías como siempre.

Majin Wasabi was saying: This isn’t the calm and emotionally balanced Vegetto people might expect from U18 — this is a fusion with a Vegeta who never had his moment of growth against Kid Buu.Vegeta still had growth and to pretend it was solely the Kid Buu moment is an overstatement since that only pertained to his relationship dynamic with Goku. Vegeta sacrificed his pride and threw away the hurt he felt from being thoroughly left behind when he heard how the people he cared about were absorbed or eaten by Buu. The extremes he went to just to gain enough power to equal SS2 Goku were significant but that was caused by his hurt ego and pride. That same ego and pride was thrown away because, ultimately, he chose to care for his family more than himself.

This all was in thanks to Goku who has been a great positive influence on him. Ultimately, DBM Vegetto forgets that influence entirely. It forgets how Vegeta slowly but surely was becoming his best self because of Goku and his family. Being fused with Goku shouldn't bring Goku's aspects down to ultimately create a worse person but uplift the better qualities of Vegeta because that's how their personalities played off of each other. Goku gained a sense of pride and respect for his heritage because of Vegeta and Vegeta, through attempting to catch up to Goku, started mimicking him(intentionally or not) by gaining a family and ultimately grew to care for them.

DBM says "Nah, what if he bad parent and evil doh?" Vegetto ultimately gained all the worst qualities of both of them and very little of the good despite the opposite being true in the manga. 10 years would only improve them, not degrade them. Vegetto entirely lacks any drive to self betterment with both his personality and his own prowess. Goku got stronger for the love of it. Vegeta wanted to be the strongest AND to surpass Goku, not JUST to surpass him.

Worse yet, DBM presents Bra in a sympathetic light by having everyone step in for her and praise her DESPITE the fact she's ACTUALLY murdered family and has only recently shown any remorse for her behavior yet somehow Vegetto keeps being presented as the bad guy on an inevitable path to corruption.

I know it's a matter of opinion but I do think it's kind of a disingenuous interpretation of Vegetto considering Vegeta was hours away at best from his full emotional growth. Being fused with Goku would hasten that if anything.

Uub empezó a entrenar tras su derrota ante Goku, en principio lleva una noche o un día entrenando.
No, no creo que llevará días entre Goku vs Uub y XXI vs Zen Buu, o si?

The only way I will enjoy it is if he isn't used as a pure puppet. Vegetto must have a genuine snap and not
get fully controlled, or absorbed. If that’s the case, then it’s clear this is just DB subversion like GoT did to John Snow, mixed in with the authors love for Bra. They have the potential to give him a good redemption arc, if they stick the landing.

The guy was literally willing to risk it all in an attempt to save his friends and family on his debut but DBM just kind of made him a whiney brat who loses most of the time and thinks about killing his family just to get a rise out of Gohan.

Whaaah. This page was extremely misunderstood. Maybe one of the most misunderstood pages in DBM.
It's obviously my fault for not telling it right, but I'm on my ass that it fell so FAR short of the mark.

This page contains two revelations.
1. it explains why Vegetto ignored Son Bra when she tried to talk to him. Speculation was rife on this page and it was great. Here comes the explanation, almost no reaction.
Probably my fault: just redoing the "hang on" panel wasn't enough, maybe I should have added a panel copying Vegetto walking towards the corridor, to add some context. My fault for wanting to make as few panels as possible.
2. The Old Kaioshin reveals, quite astonished himself, that Vegetto is suddenly weaker! He felt it while he was having this privileged telepathic contact. It's a surprise for him and the reader. No, he doesn't provoke it.
It's true that if you read the text out loud, depending on the tone, the last two bubbles could come across as roast, or as a surprising discovery. That's why you have to be careful about what you write on the Internet - you never know what tone it's going to be read in!
My mistake: the old man in the last panel may not look surprised enough, and the fact that he's clenching his teeth may show him to be aggressive. I should have thought of that and asked for changes.

¿Soy el único que piensa que todo esto arruina un poco la historia? Ahora en el combate con Goku todos van a estar pendientes de lo que XXI va a hacer y cualquier cosa extraña que pase se sabrá que es él. En el combate con Gast todos estábamos en los comentarios teorizando qué iba a pasar si escuchaban lo que pasó dentro del humo, si algún personaje más se daría cuenta... era interesante ver como Yamcha, Zen Buu, Vegetto intuían por su propia inteligencia que algo iba mal con XXI pero ahora se los dijeron a todos y listo

Increíble, unos años después se confirma la teoría del Varga malo, nunca pense que lo canonizarian

tThe screaming white eyed anthropomorphic canid from page 1104 means that U5 XXI (or someone else) already knew that spell or a similar spell during the events of the U18 Goku vs U8 Frieza fight.

Wow! I guess Vegito will want a power up, XXI in exchange will say "Prevent them from sending me back to my Universe" then Bardocks Vision will come true

DrewSaga was saying: Eddboy was saying: …question.

Gast literally lost to XXI because XXI summoned Janemba. What would happen if XXI didn't have Janemba?

Gast literally lost because XXI was going to eat him and he forfeited. Honestly, idk why Janemba was even there. From their fight, Gast had no options once trapped. We don’t know enough about XXI to know why he’s relying on dragon balls, why he’s using different methods instead of his clearly superior power. Hopefully it makes sense in 5 years.

Majin Wasabi escribió: Saso escribió: Coincido en todo, incluso en lo de IKL, si, sirve para saber a qué hora exacta transcurre el flashback, pero poco más xD

Lo que me llama la atención es por qué Vellet piensa que Vegetto aceptaría sin rechistar, en su universo tuvo diferencias con el viejo Kaioshin y eso lo sabemos.
Tuvieron sus diferencias pero si son aliados, Vegito sabe que si el anciano lo dice debe ser cierto, pero no significa que vaya a hacerle caso e intentar ir a destruirlo sin antes preguntarle directamente a XXI si es verdad lo que dice.
Estoy seguro que Vegito mas que preocuparse se va a emocionar
Veremos esas reacciones pronto, ahora, acabo de comentar algo interesante en la sección inglesa.

Tal vez Gast, esté deprimido por haber perdido su deseo, o tal vez, sea tan complaciente con XXI porque este le ofreció uno de sus deseos, sin embargo, esto no es coherente, si Gast lograra descalificar o detener a XXI, automáticamente la final sería entre el y Goku, independientemente del resultado, el obtendría su deseo pues Goku solo tiene uso para uno de ellos (U19).

Por tanto, un escritor como Salagir que nos tiene acostumbrados a las mejores historias de DBM, probablemente de una explicación o flashback para esto, similar a lo que ocurrió con Cell y Phipsil en su día.

Creo que todos en todos los idiomas preferimos creer esto último, antes que un hueco argumental por el bien de la trama, sobre todo cuando tienes tantísimo margen para arreglarlo sobre la marcha incluso si lo era en un principio.

Coincido en todo, incluso en lo de IKL, si, sirve para saber a qué hora exacta transcurre el flashback, pero poco más xD

Lo que me llama la atención es por qué Vellet piensa que Vegetto aceptaría sin rechistar, en su universo tuvo diferencias con el viejo Kaioshin y eso lo sabemos.

Vellett escribió: Y ahora le pide ayuda a vegito y accede sin dudar
Majin Wasabi escribió: Mas que ayudar, siento que Vegito ira a preguntar directamente a XXI que le diga sus verdaderas intenciones, su curiosidad no aguantara las ganas de ir a encararlo directamente, la cosa es que le dira XXI dudo mucho que simplemente le cuente todo.
¿Qué los lleva a pensar eso?

Se echa de menos y mucho a zen bu hubiese actuado sin dudarlo contra XXI de alguna manera rara pero lo hubiese hecho

Un momento. Esas salas interiores bloquean la detección de Ki. ¿Cómo puede el anciano Kaio Shin comunicarse telepáticamente buscando con quien comunicarse si no puede detectar su energía?

Majin Wasabi was saying: They should start getting serious, i dont think nappa ki dropped, he just lost an arm

Losing an arm and bleeding out in middle of battle seems pretty serious unless you are Namekian, Cell or Buu.

Oh my, Krillin missed! Even in fanmangas Kienzan is not useful!

El krilin original tenía mejor puntería o nappa aquí sí se movió aunque vegeta no le haya dicho nada. Los guerreros Z estarán al nivel de nappa o por encima.

Aquí me faltan viñetas... Se supone que en el manga original Nappa va a recibir la tecnica, Vegeta le avisa y Nappa lo esquiva en el último segundo.

¿Aqui iba a recibirlo pero Krilin es tan torpe que ha fallado? ¿Nappa a decidido por su cuenta en el ultimo momento esquivarlo y ha perdido un brazo?

El viernes todas tus preguntas estarán respondidas.

Claro pero aquí vió el combate con Gast, teóricamente pudo medir su poder en base a que derrotó con facilidad a alguien muy superior a el(sin mencionar que invocó a Janemba, teóricamente superior a Goku aswell).

Majin Wasabi escribió: Sé que no es la versión oficial, pero la verdad no me imagino a Goku actuando así.es verdad que Goku no es mal perdedor como Vegeta ni se tomaría la derrota tan personal, pero Goku sigue siendo muuuy orgulloso y ridículamente competitivo. No lo imagino rindiéndose sin antes darlo todo.
Con Cell?

Majin Wasabi escribió: Sé que no es la versión oficial, pero la verdad no me imagino a Goku actuando así.es verdad que Goku no es mal perdedor como Vegeta ni se tomaría la derrota tan personal, pero Goku sigue siendo muuuy orgulloso y ridículamente competitivo. No lo imagino rindiéndose sin antes darlo todo.

No sé de qué Vegeta hablas, sin duda no es del Universo 18
Tremendo personaje, y brutal su desarrollo
No me lo imagino haciendo berrinche si hubiera perdido

iron leaf was saying: Oh, and who still remembers the name of the U10 Saiyan without looking it up? ;)
Mahissu, Vegeta and Baddack.