BrutaleBent was saying: Soo, since Goku sensed that (possibly increadibly high) ki, why isn't he already IT to Vegeta, IT away, teach him fusion dance, IT back and end Broly?
Takes a while to learn the fusion dance, and it's never been Goku's first move. They might think they can stop it without fusing anyhow.

So:
— Bra is a terrible person from youth.
— her worst actions come in SS2, which she can’t control.
— because she is a terrible person, Babidi can control her.
— Bra now has complete sane control over SS2 because of Babidi.
In effect: because Bra was a bad person, she has been rewarded with a free solution to her one major flaw. If she’d HAD the goodness or self-control to resist Babidi initially, she wouldn’t be able to sanely fight back against Vegito now.

Remember, kids: being an a-hole will solve your problems eventually! -_-

And now EVEN MORE screentime for Bra as we resolve this, as Goku and Uub patiently await their first action in five years. Whatever nuance Vegito had as a character is getting rapidly lost so he can play heel to Bra. It’s not Buu which makes him snap, or XXI, but Bra. She is the single most important character of this comic.

If ANYONE intervenes on Bra’s behalf, I’m calling baloney. Because that means Bra—a person who has been utterly antisocial and insulting to all outsiders even BEFORE she potentially killed members of their universe—has spontaneously generated enough sympathy from characters we DO respect to get them to interfere, for the first time, in the business of a universe which hadn’t directly messed with them first. Against Vegito.

The best writing outcome here is to let U16 figure this out, for better or for worse.

So:
— Bra is a terrible person from youth.
— her worst actions come in SS2, which she can’t control.
— because she is a terrible person, Babidi can control her.
— Bra now has complete sane control over SS2 because of Babidi.
In effect: because Bra was a bad person, she has been rewarded with a free solution to her one major flaw. If she’d HAD the goodness or self-control to resist Babidi initially, she wouldn’t be able to sanely fight back against Vegito now.

Remember, kids: being an a-hole will solve your problems eventually! -_-

And now EVEN MORE screentime for Bra as we resolve this, as Goku and Uub patiently await their first action in five years. Whatever nuance Vegito had as a character is getting rapidly lost so he can play heel to Bra. It’s not Buu which makes him snap, or XXI, but Bra. She is the single most important character of this comic.

If ANYONE intervenes on Bra’s behalf, I’m calling baloney. Because that means Bra—a person who has been utterly antisocial and insulting to all outsiders even BEFORE she potentially killed members of their universe—has spontaneously generated enough sympathy from characters we DO respect to get them to interfere, for the first time, in the business of a universe which hadn’t directly messed with them first. Against Vegito.

The best writing outcome here is to let U16 figure this out, for better or for worse.

pofehof was saying: Boscha196 was saying: And right after he says it's up to you to decide how canon it is. VJUMP is an official publication sure, but it makes mistakes all the time.

Also I'm pretty sure Bulma only makes that statement about Goku being the strongest in the anime. Even if you do consider that she says it doesn't automatically make it true. Bulma is not exactly a reliable source and context is important. Bulma does not have much reason to know how strong Gohan is since she was not there against Buu and Gohan will not put it on display all the time and in fact pretty much does the opposite. Goku is saying there is going to be someone super strong at the Budokai and Bulma is stating how much disbelief she is in.

If you look at the feats and statements from the manga during the Buu saga it is very clear Gohan is much stronger than Goku. I will say it is at least possible Goku closed the gap in ten years, though it is unlikely without a new transformation, training method, or crisis, but there is nothing clear to say that for sure. DBM's interpretation is just fine.

Sure, it's up to us, but official publications are basically word of god.

Yeah, I'm trying to look around for that quote, but it's very possible that I read a bad translation on it, or misremember when she said it (thought it was when they were talking to Goku in the field where he and Goten were).

I would argue that Bulma would know who is the strongest out of them since she is directly linked with the group. Also, one thing people don't realize is that it's headcanon to think that Gohan retained his power from the Buu saga, seeing that he never trained afterward, whereas we got confirmation that Goku and Vegeta kept on training all these years.

I thought I already resolved this argument. In regard to dbm and Vegeta comment it wouldn't matter if bulma said that goku was the strongest at the end of z. It was 5 years since bulma stated this. Whether goku closed the gap or gohan became weaker then his max at the time bulma stated this sentence. Gohan has 5 years to regain or improve on his own strength irregardless if he could increase his strength or not.

In regards to him not being able to grow stronger comment. To clarify it means Gohan became weaker and regained his max level after training. This would mean goku hadn't reached gohans max when bulma stated her comment but was stronger then gohan at the time.

In regards to gohan improving his strength then goku surpassed him when bulma said it and during the 5 years between Vegeta calling him the strongest here gohan simply became stronger then that. (I prefer this one because giving gohan a hard limit to his strength annoys me)

So ignoring Super, isn't it true that neither Goku nor Vegeta can ever surpass Gohan now no matter how much they train unless Gohan declines? Since he has the highest potential of the three and has had it unlocked by old kai (And before by Guru and he still got stronger later but let's ignore that inconvenient fact too)

I also wonder if SSJ3 isn't a form that is impractical/impossible to learn for a living saiyan since Goku learned it as a ghost where he had no body strain to worry about. Who know what kind of depths removing such a factor allows you to reach into? Well, aside from Goku of course.

Additionally, if it's a form that requires the state of being dead to initially learn due to some fatigue factor in reaching that deep inside, could SSJ2 be the maximum obtainable potential of a living saiyan? Looking even further, this would mean that Gohan's mystic form is simply expressing the power of his maximum potential as a SSJ2, which would not only imply that Goku and Vegeta have a long way to go before they reach their limits as fighters, but that Goku can probably become stronger than Gohan in SSJ3 if his potential is even over half of what Gohan's is and that if Gohan were to die and learn SSJ3 in otherworld he would be ridiculously OP.

Turbocharger was saying: I'm pretty sure the only people Goku has surrendered to are Cell, Beerus, and Hit. So this is actually pretty impressive. Vegeta might not be satisfied with a forfeit tho.
Who the hell are those other two characters after Cell?

Enjoying this special and the artistic style. Great job!
This is interesting to see what is either an intense spariring match or maybe even a knock down drag out fight between Goku and Vegeta of U18 inside ROSAT. 18 Goku actually does a good job of describing just how strong Vegeta has become. He states that barring any new transformation or secret new technique he may not know about, Goku feels confident in his estimation of Vegeta’s power as at the time he’s making the statement, says that Vegeta would win a one on one fight vs. Kid Buu, and face little challenge in doing so. It seems as if this is meant to be at Vegeta’s maximum as a SS2. We also know that Vegeta has been chasing Gohan’s power through his training. It has been strongly implied that Vegeta has found “something”.... some of the more observant members of other universes feeling that Vegeta is hiding “something”. Whether that is something akin to Gohan’s power or something different, or perhaps some special technique he’s discovered is still up for debate. This has also been implied several times through the webcomic. Wonder if maybe this special chapter will confirm what Vegeta is hiding like another special chapter confirmed immortal Kakarotto. Maybe, but then again maybe not. Still loving it either way.

@ultablader11
Yes, the quote is a bit vague. I think it does still imply that Gohan's stronger though if we're strictly talking power level.

If the tournament continues, I think we might get a decent comparison between Vegeta and Gohan through Vegeta's match against Perfect Cell. Which I expect him to win as a way to show how he's 'better' in a fight than Gohan despite being weaker still.

@ultablader11
Check Salagir's comment on page 230. It's from about a decade ago, so stuff could've changed. But it's there. Here's the relevant part of the quote:

"Let's talk about Gohan. Mystic Gohan. He was put to his full potential "and even more". Can he become stronger in the next saga?
Any Shonen addict will say "duh, of course". I've decided not. In order to stop the infinite increase. Gohan was upgraded by the gods of the gods. He went above the silly need of SSJ. Gohan is adult, how can he gain more potential? So it's decided, Gohan is at the top of the top (his top). That's so not shonen, I know.
(Remember that Mystic Gohan is way way stronger than Goku SSJ3. There is no debate about it and I won't accept any on this cool thread)
Then... can Goku and Vegeta be much stronger than him? Now that I decided he is at the top? Gohan, the "half saiyan with so much more potential than saiyans"? That's a little disappointing right?
Yes it is. It may appear that DBM Goku and Vegeta from universe 18 aren't really stronger than Gohan, who does not even participate. Yeah, even after 20 years of training. They're old, they're at their top too.
Oh don't worry.
They will amaze you.
But it won't be a mere matter of power level."

ultablader11 was saying: Invader_Jim was saying: ultablader11 was saying: He isn't. In movie 13.... -snip-
Fortunately DBM rewrote the steaming pile of garbage that is movie 13.
In DBM, Gohan has a higher PL than Goku and Vegeta. That doesn't mean he is a better fighter though.
I wouldn't look too much into Goku watching on like a deer in headlights, he's an idiot like that.
We haven't gotten the chapter on movie 13 yet. Also it was never stated anywhere that Gohan is actually stronger than Goku in this series. If you assumed that then its on you.
Actually Salagir has said that Gohan in U18 is the strongest of all. Gohan surpasses Goku and Vegeta when it comes to raw power, so yes, Gohan is the strongest

It would be badass to see Ultimate Gohan see Pan's panic and jump in and easily stop the fight. He's probably still more powerful, especially ignoring how GT and Super gimp him.