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Agus
5 January 2021
ptWolv022 jera drio dir:
Agus was saying: slushie was saying:
I agree with the fact that Vegetto's flaws are related to feeling a god, not controlling is anger and thinking that anything can be surpassed with raw power.
The problem I see right now is that Vegetto is being judged right now by:
— A stoic namekian who was usually very reserved and wouldn't give an opinion without knowing more and say something cheesy as "a father should believe in his child"
— The most immature character in the show that for some reason feels morally superior right know even though he has been trying to brute force like his father in previous stories
— A teenage girl that just had everyone killed in front of her, was terribly shocked and crying and now she seems to be extremely happy and optimistic
— Another teenage girl who has just realized she killed her own brother and many people and was feeling guilty enough to ask her father to kill her, but suddenly feels secure enough to start justifying her actions as terrible as they were.
There were different ways to let Vegetto know that he is not perfect and that he's also part of the cause of Bra's personality, but the last three pages are awkwardly one-sided and out of the blue.
1) I think Gast intervening makes sense. He saw the battle from Zen Buu's magic, he's seen that the threat is no more, and now he sees Vegetto trying to murder his own offspring, his progeny, his legacy. He's trying to keep the peace. And do keep in mind he seems to have better senses, what with him being able to sense Piccolo Daimao being tainted by good. He can probably tell that there's no reason for her to be killed.
2) As for Gotenks being the one to speak up, I think it makes sense since he has grown up. He's immature, sure, but he's still not a pair of 7 year olds. He is an adult at this point, and he's trying to talk to his father because no one else will. Gotenks is standing up to protect his sister from being killed by their father. I mean, it's really just crazy and that's why Gotenks is speaking up. Now that Gohan-16 is dead, Gotenks is the only child of Vegetto left to speak up. There's Pan, who is his granddaughter technically, but she's a child grieving the loss of her father. Gotenks is the only family around to speak up.
3) Dragon Balls. I mean, all of Babidi's minions are done in, with the last hurdle being Super Bra, who has broken her mind control. Vegetto can't do anything since Gast is neutralizing him. In the end, everything will be fine as the main threat is dealt with (and Vegetto is probably going to be talked down, hopefully).
4) As for Bra, I think her will to live has been promptly restored because people are standing up for her. Like, from the start, Vegetto has basically written off her ability to control herself and has said that she must die if she ever loses control. Her father, her role model, the man who is the hero of the universe, told her she must die. So, she accepted that maybe she has to die. But, now, people are speaking up and saying "No, no, she's not dying. You don't get to be the one alone to choose to kill her." She's being told she had the strength to break Babidi's control in the end, she gained control of SSJ2, and the god-like father she always feared and respected is currently being told "No, you don't get to decide this yourself". Is it a bit of quick turn around, yeah. But I think it makes enough sense without having to drag out this scene longer than it needs to be.
I agree with the fact that Vegetto's flaws are related to feeling a god, not controlling is anger and thinking that anything can be surpassed with raw power.
The problem I see right now is that Vegetto is being judged right now by:
— A stoic namekian who was usually very reserved and wouldn't give an opinion without knowing more and say something cheesy as "a father should believe in his child"
— The most immature character in the show that for some reason feels morally superior right know even though he has been trying to brute force like his father in previous stories
— A teenage girl that just had everyone killed in front of her, was terribly shocked and crying and now she seems to be extremely happy and optimistic
— Another teenage girl who has just realized she killed her own brother and many people and was feeling guilty enough to ask her father to kill her, but suddenly feels secure enough to start justifying her actions as terrible as they were.
There were different ways to let Vegetto know that he is not perfect and that he's also part of the cause of Bra's personality, but the last three pages are awkwardly one-sided and out of the blue.
1) I think Gast intervening makes sense. He saw the battle from Zen Buu's magic, he's seen that the threat is no more, and now he sees Vegetto trying to murder his own offspring, his progeny, his legacy. He's trying to keep the peace. And do keep in mind he seems to have better senses, what with him being able to sense Piccolo Daimao being tainted by good. He can probably tell that there's no reason for her to be killed.
2) As for Gotenks being the one to speak up, I think it makes sense since he has grown up. He's immature, sure, but he's still not a pair of 7 year olds. He is an adult at this point, and he's trying to talk to his father because no one else will. Gotenks is standing up to protect his sister from being killed by their father. I mean, it's really just crazy and that's why Gotenks is speaking up. Now that Gohan-16 is dead, Gotenks is the only child of Vegetto left to speak up. There's Pan, who is his granddaughter technically, but she's a child grieving the loss of her father. Gotenks is the only family around to speak up.
3) Dragon Balls. I mean, all of Babidi's minions are done in, with the last hurdle being Super Bra, who has broken her mind control. Vegetto can't do anything since Gast is neutralizing him. In the end, everything will be fine as the main threat is dealt with (and Vegetto is probably going to be talked down, hopefully).
4) As for Bra, I think her will to live has been promptly restored because people are standing up for her. Like, from the start, Vegetto has basically written off her ability to control herself and has said that she must die if she ever loses control. Her father, her role model, the man who is the hero of the universe, told her she must die. So, she accepted that maybe she has to die. But, now, people are speaking up and saying "No, no, she's not dying. You don't get to be the one alone to choose to kill her." She's being told she had the strength to break Babidi's control in the end, she gained control of SSJ2, and the god-like father she always feared and respected is currently being told "No, you don't get to decide this yourself". Is it a bit of quick turn around, yeah. But I think it makes enough sense without having to drag out this scene longer than it needs to be.
Those are good points but I see some problems with some of them:
1) Gast stopping Vegetto is totally OK. Gast giving paternity tips without knowing anything about the background and just based on senses that are not shown to readers? Let me go back to that later.
2) He's his son, so it's probably an interested party here. Was there any evidence of maturity growth in the story? The last thing I remember is that he was furious with Bra a few years ago because she didn't obey him and he was going to blow everything up.
3) It is totally unnatural to recover from trauma so quickly and be genuinely smiling again. Even in the remote case that she is very emotionally mature and processed the information that everything was going to be fine with dragon balls, that is something that is just an assumption. Not shown to the reader.
4) Good strong points about not thinking for herself until she gets some support, but this is the first time we are hearing of the lack of confidence in her (she has been educated and trained, knowing that she was a potential diamond) and the transition from going naive, to evil controlled by babidi, to terribly sorry after breaking the charm to finally relieved, in peace and with understandment of everything goes to fast, all in her head without anything being shown to the reader.
So the four points have the same problem: Character development and changes in character that are not justified as part of history.
In my opinion, I wouldn't have enjoyed dragon ball so much if any of this happened in the background and characters had a sudden change:
— Picollo jr starting to appreciate life and getting a bond with Gohan
— Gohan toughening up after picollo killed him
— Vegeta's redemption and his understandment that he was only freeza's pawn
— Gohan again when he realizes he has to take the burden of beating cell to save everyone
Without the background, empathy is much harder. There's a reason the stories about characters that struggle are so popular.
Why spend so many pages explaining that Bra has rage issues, no one can control her, her tantrums involve killing innumerable people, his objective is becoming stronger than Gohan (without a single line inciting her to do so), the interaction with his family is mostly about how difficult she is to reason to and finally a very detailed and gory multi-chapter plot where she is very antagonized enjoying the suffering of characters that are definitely made to have empathy with?
I can't empathize with this sudden change of Bra where the most emphasis was in her being called passive and all the emotional build up is gone, to just quickly close the plot by saying that now everything is fine because she understood everything and know what to work on to improve. I could assume what is going in her head, but those would be just assumptions and they don't trigger emotions in the same way.
Does it work for you?
Agus
4 January 2021
slushie jera drio dir:
To bad you guys don't have the other half of this comic.
That sounds really good, I'm clinging to the hope that there's something else in the story.
Imagine if something like that was the real truth, Salagir would be laughing really hard looking at the comments!
Honestly the last three pages don't make much sense, if the plan was to make Vegetto look bad, why wouldn't any of the stories mention anything about how his family disagreed with him?
To make the story move forward, Vegetto needs to have some character growth, and I doubt he's going to accept what it's being said lightly. So considering that the next pages are probably about Vegetto snapping, having someone scheming all this in the shadows would be much more interesting. We already know some people with reality warping powers that could be behind it (Babidi, Buu and XXI)
The problem with this theory is the premonition, everyone is alive, healed and with clean clothes here: https://www.dragonball-multiverse.com/en/page-419.html
So if they want Vegetto to go crazy now it must happen later or, if it happens now, he could be sent to his universe or far away and have a comeback later.
MrPerson0 jera drio dir:
It's astounding that people still believe this meme. It's a shame that DBZ Abridged made it popular to the point that people actually believe Goku is a terrible father.
Aren't most shonen heros terrible fathers? It's the "I want to sacrifice myself to save everyone and just become the strongest" mentality. If they can't put their family over others and dedicate them time, that makes them terrible parents. Children are a responsibility, they are time consuming and if you want to dedicate time/your life to save others, you are taking that away from your family.
Time is limited, you can only do a limited amount of things with your life, and fighting the world and playing the hero are definitely on top of goku's priorities, even eating is better than spending time with his family apparently.
ptWolv022 jera drio dir:
I actually rather like this, despite everyone hating it.
1) Vegetto needs to be told that he's not God. He is the most powerful being in his universe, an unstoppable force that has no such immovable object to rival him. Armies surrender at the mere sight of him because no one can hope to defeat him. There is no one to stop him. What he says goes, and... that's it.
2) He has done a terrible job trying to teach Bra self-control. Look back at the chapters showing her learning self-control. Vegetto: stood on the sidelines, let Gohan knock her out, took her into the RoSaT right after she's healed to train her, and then, after an angry 2 and a half days stormed out, declaring her a lost cause. Then Gohan came in and taught her self control in like a day. Vegetto says she's combative, and she is. But she also can be reasoned with. Vegetto just never, ever knew how to do it, presumably because of his aforementioned "I am the law of the universe" approach.
3) A culmination of the previous two points, Vegetto has no idea how to not brute force stuff. When his daughter went berserk, his idea was to threaten her life despite the fact that this presumably took place after Gohan succeeded in teaching her restraint for the time being. When fighting the illusion of Bra, he didn't use any sort of clever tricks, he just powered up, and then when it tried to kill him other ways, he just powered up more. More power. More, and more power. Demoralize the enemy with all your power. Obliterate the threat because that works. For everything. And everyone.
4) Can we all take a moment to consider that Bra was mind controlled throughout all of this? So far, our we've seen Vegeta and Cell resist the mind control entirely. That's two out of how many people? Every other saiyan and Frost Demon did not successfully resist control. Bra, however, was controlled. Controlled by her desire to by powerful like her father. Her father, who was born of two people who strived without end to be the strongest in the world. Her father, whom the universe bends the knee to. Her father, the fighter who, after failing to teach Bra self-control, stormed off ranting, and teleported away. Her father, who when cheated out a match that is entirely just a fun show, went off and screamed about wanting to break his son's skull and noted that he acts like Bra when he's mad.
To sum up what I'm trying to get across: Bra has always looked up to Vegetto. He's her father, so it's natural. He's also feared and respected by the universe, something many people would admire. But Vegetto isn't a stoic model of self-control himself. Gohan is. But Vegetto tries to brute force everything and vwooops off to have a temper tantrum when he can't simply brute force a problem. He doesn't realize that although he keeps the peace in the universe, he is still fallible. He threatened to kill his daughter and then was about to follow through on it, asserting "I beat Babidi's brainwashing, so she must be a lost cause because she didn't" even though she eventually did. Because someone pointed she was going about everything all wrong: they pointed out that her inability to control herself was a problem, and they did it by lecturing her, not threatening her life.
Bra wasn't a lost cause. Vegetto just couldn't figure out how to approach teaching Bra from a different angle, so he hoped fear would keep her in line. That is why Vegetto is getting talked down to. Because he can't understand that his awesome and terrifying power isn't the answer to everything. Everyone else recognizes their tempers can flares and they can make mistakes. Vegetto either doesn't think he can be mistaken, or doesn't care that he can make mistakes.
1) Vegetto needs to be told that he's not God. He is the most powerful being in his universe, an unstoppable force that has no such immovable object to rival him. Armies surrender at the mere sight of him because no one can hope to defeat him. There is no one to stop him. What he says goes, and... that's it.
2) He has done a terrible job trying to teach Bra self-control. Look back at the chapters showing her learning self-control. Vegetto: stood on the sidelines, let Gohan knock her out, took her into the RoSaT right after she's healed to train her, and then, after an angry 2 and a half days stormed out, declaring her a lost cause. Then Gohan came in and taught her self control in like a day. Vegetto says she's combative, and she is. But she also can be reasoned with. Vegetto just never, ever knew how to do it, presumably because of his aforementioned "I am the law of the universe" approach.
3) A culmination of the previous two points, Vegetto has no idea how to not brute force stuff. When his daughter went berserk, his idea was to threaten her life despite the fact that this presumably took place after Gohan succeeded in teaching her restraint for the time being. When fighting the illusion of Bra, he didn't use any sort of clever tricks, he just powered up, and then when it tried to kill him other ways, he just powered up more. More power. More, and more power. Demoralize the enemy with all your power. Obliterate the threat because that works. For everything. And everyone.
4) Can we all take a moment to consider that Bra was mind controlled throughout all of this? So far, our we've seen Vegeta and Cell resist the mind control entirely. That's two out of how many people? Every other saiyan and Frost Demon did not successfully resist control. Bra, however, was controlled. Controlled by her desire to by powerful like her father. Her father, who was born of two people who strived without end to be the strongest in the world. Her father, whom the universe bends the knee to. Her father, the fighter who, after failing to teach Bra self-control, stormed off ranting, and teleported away. Her father, who when cheated out a match that is entirely just a fun show, went off and screamed about wanting to break his son's skull and noted that he acts like Bra when he's mad.
To sum up what I'm trying to get across: Bra has always looked up to Vegetto. He's her father, so it's natural. He's also feared and respected by the universe, something many people would admire. But Vegetto isn't a stoic model of self-control himself. Gohan is. But Vegetto tries to brute force everything and vwooops off to have a temper tantrum when he can't simply brute force a problem. He doesn't realize that although he keeps the peace in the universe, he is still fallible. He threatened to kill his daughter and then was about to follow through on it, asserting "I beat Babidi's brainwashing, so she must be a lost cause because she didn't" even though she eventually did. Because someone pointed she was going about everything all wrong: they pointed out that her inability to control herself was a problem, and they did it by lecturing her, not threatening her life.
Bra wasn't a lost cause. Vegetto just couldn't figure out how to approach teaching Bra from a different angle, so he hoped fear would keep her in line. That is why Vegetto is getting talked down to. Because he can't understand that his awesome and terrifying power isn't the answer to everything. Everyone else recognizes their tempers can flares and they can make mistakes. Vegetto either doesn't think he can be mistaken, or doesn't care that he can make mistakes.
I agree with the fact that Vegetto's flaws are related to feeling a god, not controlling is anger and thinking that anything can be surpassed with raw power.
The problem I see right now is that Vegetto is being judged right now by:
— A stoic namekian who was usually very reserved and wouldn't give an opinion without knowing more and say something cheesy as "a father should believe in his child"
— The most immature character in the show that for some reason feels morally superior right know even though he has been trying to brute force like his father in previous stories
— A teenage girl that just had everyone killed in front of her, was terribly shocked and crying and now she seems to be extremely happy and optimistic
— Another teenage girl who has just realized she killed her own brother and many people and was feeling guilty enough to ask her father to kill her, but suddenly feels secure enough to start justifying her actions as terrible as they were.
There were different ways to let Vegetto know that he is not perfect and that he's also part of the cause of Bra's personality, but the last three pages are awkwardly one-sided and out of the blue. 1 Resposta/e
Agus
20 December 2020
Ashanark jera drio dir:
So:
— Bra is a terrible person from youth.
— her worst actions come in SS2, which she can’t control.
— because she is a terrible person, Babidi can control her.
— Bra now has complete sane control over SS2 because of Babidi.
In effect: because Bra was a bad person, she has been rewarded with a free solution to her one major flaw. If she’d HAD the goodness or self-control to resist Babidi initially, she wouldn’t be able to sanely fight back against Vegito now.
Remember, kids: being an a-hole will solve your problems eventually! -_-
And now EVEN MORE screentime for Bra as we resolve this, as Goku and Uub patiently await their first action in five years. Whatever nuance Vegito had as a character is getting rapidly lost so he can play heel to Bra. It’s not Buu which makes him snap, or XXI, but Bra. She is the single most important character of this comic.
If ANYONE intervenes on Bra’s behalf, I’m calling baloney. Because that means Bra—a person who has been utterly antisocial and insulting to all outsiders even BEFORE she potentially killed members of their universe—has spontaneously generated enough sympathy from characters we DO respect to get them to interfere, for the first time, in the business of a universe which hadn’t directly messed with them first. Against Vegito.
The best writing outcome here is to let U16 figure this out, for better or for worse.
— Bra is a terrible person from youth.
— her worst actions come in SS2, which she can’t control.
— because she is a terrible person, Babidi can control her.
— Bra now has complete sane control over SS2 because of Babidi.
In effect: because Bra was a bad person, she has been rewarded with a free solution to her one major flaw. If she’d HAD the goodness or self-control to resist Babidi initially, she wouldn’t be able to sanely fight back against Vegito now.
Remember, kids: being an a-hole will solve your problems eventually! -_-
And now EVEN MORE screentime for Bra as we resolve this, as Goku and Uub patiently await their first action in five years. Whatever nuance Vegito had as a character is getting rapidly lost so he can play heel to Bra. It’s not Buu which makes him snap, or XXI, but Bra. She is the single most important character of this comic.
If ANYONE intervenes on Bra’s behalf, I’m calling baloney. Because that means Bra—a person who has been utterly antisocial and insulting to all outsiders even BEFORE she potentially killed members of their universe—has spontaneously generated enough sympathy from characters we DO respect to get them to interfere, for the first time, in the business of a universe which hadn’t directly messed with them first. Against Vegito.
The best writing outcome here is to let U16 figure this out, for better or for worse.
In stories for kids it's totally normal that the good guy has good outcomes and the bad guy suffers the consequences, but real life is not like that, what is wrong in a story where the bad guy has it in their own way?
Of course this won't make the character likable, but maybe that's the plan. If Salagir wanted to make Bra likable, many details would have been different. There are many details that are intended to make people hate her, something that is out of the ordinary in these times of mangas full of fan service.
Vegetto being a god-like character was too perfect to make an interesting story, so many flaws were introduced to give the other characters an opportunity to shine. Bra could've been only a trigger, but to enrich the story she's not only a plot device for vegetto to go nuts, she has development.
I agree with the fact that no one should be on Bra's side now (except for maybe Buu and people with other plans), but considering that many people have just died and things have just calmed down, having someone continuing with the fight may probably trigger a few characters, specially if the fight just starts in front of everyone's eyes and looks so one sided.
It's not about protecting Bra because they care about her, is more about stopping the madness. 1 Resposta/e
Agus
18 December 2020
Ashanark jera drio dir:
Consider: we still have not seen U16 Pan's reaction to U16 Gohan being bisected by Bra. Why? Because if Pan actually asked Bra why she did that, or even reacted to it, that would make Bra look bad. There is no reason not to see this scene, yet instead, we've skipped over it. Why?
Instead, we have jumped straight to Vegito--as in-character as it is for him--kicking Bra. It's the exact same shindig as the flashback: an adult authority figure on both feet contrasted with a crying young girl on the ground and defenseless. (Note the goshdarn panel of her big, innocent, teary eyes!) Except now he's physically hurting her.
Vegito is not being portrayed as in the right here, or even justified in his anger.
If Vegito isn't in the right, then Bra is undeserving of this treatment, and therefore she is in the right.
Bra murdered all these people and she is in the right.
This is literally the exact worst possible outcome of this rebellion: Bra turns evil, kills everyone, breaks the seal by herself, apologizes, then immediately has Vegito not only not accept her apology, but physically abuse her so we feel sorry for her. Sigh.
Instead, we have jumped straight to Vegito--as in-character as it is for him--kicking Bra. It's the exact same shindig as the flashback: an adult authority figure on both feet contrasted with a crying young girl on the ground and defenseless. (Note the goshdarn panel of her big, innocent, teary eyes!) Except now he's physically hurting her.
Vegito is not being portrayed as in the right here, or even justified in his anger.
If Vegito isn't in the right, then Bra is undeserving of this treatment, and therefore she is in the right.
Bra murdered all these people and she is in the right.
This is literally the exact worst possible outcome of this rebellion: Bra turns evil, kills everyone, breaks the seal by herself, apologizes, then immediately has Vegito not only not accept her apology, but physically abuse her so we feel sorry for her. Sigh.
The fact that you keep insisting on analyzing what each page is supposed to be doing and how that affects the story puzzles me.
It sounds as if you are not actually trying to just enjoy the story and have natural feelings. Why would you need to analyze what the author is trying to express in such a logic way?
Maybe by oversimplifying everything trying to know who should be the good and the bad guy, you are not enjoying this as much as you could.
I love stories where you are not sure if you want the "bad guy" to win because you are not entirely sure if they are not actually doing what is right. I love when even though someone is despictable and deserves the worst, you get to feel sympathy for them, even though you know they don't deseve forgiveness.
From my point of view, Bra is just immature, very unstable, with a lot of flaws and hardly someone you could trust on, but at the same time is a teenager that can have a broad range of emotions, going through the typical teenage rebellion and being unsure and still defining her personality while making many mistakes that no-one without superpowers would be able to make.
On the other hand, if Bra was just plain evil, what would that mean for the story? Another powerful enemy to beat with little reasons to doubt and just another fight with a broken power scale and flashy fights.
I'm not saying that the the character is very deep, I'm just trying to say that maybe you should give the story some time and enjoy it without getting annoyed if you don't like who gets more attention and praise.
What will define if the plot is good or not if it is able to produce strong feelings in the people who read it, it's working for me so far.
Łengua
Maybe #16 should quit while he is a head.
Underrated comment! I love what you did there.