Not a big fan of explaining the stuff Bojack and pals are wearing as some kind of limiters or tech related thing instead of the canon being that they're just vanity ornaments meant to sell the "pirates" thing. It's a retcon. I can see the point though, obviously there's a lot of backstory writing to make Bojack into something, with the huge emphasis on teamkilling, him being a rat bastard instead of just the big bad arrogant guy from the movie. Some would say it adds definition/characterization to him, and they wouldn't necessarily be wrong, there can be appeal there. Personally I'm fine with it (although I think other universes deserve that focus more) but I don't think it necessarily extends to stuff like explaining the necklaces, in which case it feels a bit forced. On the other hand it's probably there to facilitate more plots where Bojack will have to break of these things' control so it's understandable.

Generally when it comes to these specials that don't take place in the canon DB universe and something more akin to a sci-fi universe, my enjoyment depends on the art (eg: the Gast chapters, really cool stuff), and the art is pretty neat here so good job and cheers.

Dragon Ball doesn't really do that in general. Multiverse has a lot more characters going out of their way to state exposition for the sake of exposition itself.
I'm not a writer but in this instance I'd have had Bujin say something that feels more natural to me like "even she stopped kissing his ass... it's been too long/i'm also losing my patience".

Great art.
The dialogues are too stilted/forced though. "She usually manipulates him better than that". Feels like the writer is really trying too hard to hammer down a concept for the reader, here "Zangya manipulates Bojack" and has a character state it directly. 1 Replie(s)

I should rephrase myself then... yes it definitely fit under the umbrella of "worldbuilding" and there's this clunky attempt to retcon Beerus into the destruction of planet Vegeta as well as to show where a bunch of these smaller characters were at the time. It's definitely in line with something like the Bardock special chapters in DBM. Maybe not the Bojack ones but certainly the Bardock ones since both are connected to Goku through Bardock.
Now, the real reason why I said "it doesn't count" would be that it's quite negligible and came out a long time after the DB manga ended as a sort of side content chapter rather than being released as part of the weekly manga. If you ignore the "release" part that's still 1 chapter on 520, I don't think "negligible" is a weird qualifier here.


Now on that I would disagree, Red Ribbon is really an action adventure arc where everything is connected to Goku's current endeavors as he tries to find the next ball on his quest, save people he met by fighting bad guys, find a hidden cave treasure while dodging deadly traps, all while fighting the Red Ribbon army and building up to a final confrontation between them. It's basically a fantasy kung fu movie. The world is growing... as Goku explores it and is challenged by it. That's why I can't just label it "worldbuilding" like a Bojack chapter.


That's perfectly fair. And given that this is a special chapter, there's more wiggle room to deviate story wise from regular DB structure than in a "main story" one. Regardless of personal taste I think there are easier "low hanging fruits" story wise in DBM like U9 or U19 to deliver some payoffs (basically either very interesting universes that also connect better with characters we follow, or universes that haven't been explored that much yet). Basically the ones that don't hit "diminishing returns" yet if you get what I mean. But I guess it also depends on the artists, what they want to draw and such so I'm not going to harp on it, but that's still a point worth mentioning I think.


Just to clarify I'm not really advocating for DBS-like "what if we brought back Freeza for some nostalgia bucks?" I don't think that stuff was all bad but it kickstarted a trend of "remember this?" writing that clearly was. I'm saying Freeza in his original runtime got interesting for his direct relationship to our characters: it's less about him being a space tyrant (although this matters) and more about all of his dialogues with Goku, killing Vegeta and Krillin in front of him. That's a good way to get people invested in your villain and his comeuppance.

Pretty good art. Is there any meaning to the necklace though? I don't remember if Bojack had it before that chapter.


I don't think it really has? Bardock (OVA only) is thematically connected to Goku and Frieza, helps build up their conflict. The future timeline got one OVA story but in the manga it's a single chapter that barely bothers to show anything (Gohan gets offscreened VERY fast, Trunks gets entirely offscreen). It's really the bare minimum. After that all you get is a few negligible additions like DB Minus which I'd argue don't count.

I understand if it's a matter of which artists (working for free) choose to work on which universe (in their free time). But it also seems to be a lore-driven deliberate writing choice, which I don't think is really paying off.
Personally I don't care about Polar, Snower or whichever Frieza family members were there 20, 50 or 100 years ago. Or knowing about their gang turf wars and which group of bad guys beat the other on planet X875 or something. I care about Frieza because Frieza has a very strong relationship to our cast and kicks off many interesting parts of the plot. Similarly, when it comes to Bojack, people who watched the movie back then didn't care about that movie because they wanted to speculate on what Bojack and his friends did in their pirate lives, they cared because Gohan went SS2 at the end of the movie after a scolding from daddy and it looked rad. 1 Replie(s)

That's also true, but it would at least be a bit more convincing if it legitimately made them menaces, even on the level of SS2 Bra or more. The crazy requirements would at least be significantly rewarded.
But as things stand, how big of a multiplier is it compared to SS3? Like... 1.5x maybe? 2x at very best? And you get "no ki leaks" on top of that so slight advantages, but for all intents and purposes is there any reason why you wouldn't pick a Gohan over Goku/Vegeta as your ally here? 1 Replie(s)

Let's be real in SS0 they're barely getting past Gohan if at all. At best they could take SS1 Bra, don't even bring up SS2, but even that is doubtful because she's got all of the techniques around. I wish it wouldn't be the case but if I can't imagine DBM deviating from this "Gohan is the absolute ceiling" thing they've set up for a while. 1 Replie(s)

I'm fine with the light character interactions here, I wish DBM would go for more of these.
Piccolo telling Bra to respect life is in character for him. Yes he kills bad guys even after turning into Kamiccolo but that kind of criticism is very warranted for Bra after her majin rampage, galaxy destruction and trying to blow up Earth. In fact it makes a lot of sense to see it coming from a no nonsense character like Piccolo, U16 or even U18.
If anything, the one part that seems to betray these guys characters is Bra bringing up the kill solution so nunchalantly. She's NOT in a position where she can discuss the possibility of killing people with that kind of half-smug half-bored face. Certainly not after the majin stuff and very arguably not after the galaxy slaughter. Definitely doesn't feel like she's very committed to this redemption path. I guess this was done for the sake of this "hey we can just revive them that's just efficiency" joke but Bra should definitely have just asked Piccolo for directions, she has no claim to lead whatsoever. He has more credentials.

I also agree with goochskun:


This feels like a clunky attempt to remind the reader that this gods hierarchy exists even though it's not that important in DB and wouldn't be brought up like this.

Vegeta didn't "rely on allies". He lost cleanly, badly, and was rescued by people while on the verge of death, with no indication or foresight about that happening because these people caught up based on something that happened after he lost. Worse even, his actual rescuer isn't one of the allies he bonded with but a complete strangers that just shares the same goal as he does.

Vegeta 13 can do that. Vegeta 13 lost because his ACTUAL allies (as in "he shares a connection with them) are SS2/base level while Vegeta's rescuer (he only shares common goal with her) is SS4+ level.

Vegeta 18 didn't manage by being the bigger man. He just happened to be grouped with the biggest beatstick around by coincidence, a beatstick that would kill him without batting an eye. 1 Replie(s)

U13 Vegeta saved Android 18 from Vegeta and she's probably back to reporting to XXI by now for the sake of #TheTeam. Does that mean Android 18 also won through the power of friendship? Just like Vegeta got saved by a stranger from another universe because they share the same goal of defeating XXI, all of the villains in XXI's team, U13 Vegeta included, are strangers from different universes helping each other for their shared goal.

Quelle supériorité ? Il a complètement perdu et il s'est fait sauver par une étrangère complète (oui, U16 Bra n'est ni sa fille ni même une personne dont il s'est rapproché d'une quelconque manière). Si Vegeta 18 est supérieur, c'est au mieux pour des raisons antérieures à ce chapitre et complètement déconnectées de la résolution de ce chapitre. Donc même si Vegeta 18 lâche son meilleur oneliner avec ses lunettes de soleil, ça sonnera faux.

Le problème c'est que ce chapitre annonce par sa couverture, son titre, et tout son setup (les Vegeta qui se confrontent, qui annoncent chacun être supérieur) quelque chose qui n'arrive juste pas. Non seulement on a pas vraiment un combat entre les Vegeta (un coup de boule du notre et ensuite il se fait virer, Pan s'est limite + battue contre le Vegeta que lui), on n'a pas non plus cette sorte d'alliance de personnages acculés (le trio de Vegeta) mais thématiquement parlant on finit par dire l'inverse de ce que le chapitre et le développement de Vegeta semblaient sous-entendre depuis le début, c'est à dire que notre Vegeta a grandi plus aux côtés de sa famille et son rival qu'un Vegeta sauvage. Notre Vegeta s'est probablement plus rapproché de l'idéal d'un artiste martial que le sauvage, et pourtant il perd le baston. Oui il est handicapé donc il y a une raison, ce que je veux dire c'est qu'il y a une opportunité très simple et manquée de montrer que justement notre Vegeta se distingue de l'autre comme ça ...

Je ne peux pas dire que cette résolution est satisfaisante, même en acceptant cette idée que la subversion (couverture/titre/setup) est complètement possible, acceptable, judicieuse, qualitative .... la résolution gâche les opportunités simples et efficaces que ce chapitre avait de développer et apparemment ce qu'on doit en retirer c'est des informations comme quoi l'environnement est dangereux pour nos héros et peut leur faire perdre des bastons facilement prenables normalement. Ok, c'est une information, je ne pense pas qu'elle vaille le fait de gâcher ce qui aurait pu être possible autrement. 1 Replie(s)

Yeah that's also true. Giving characters some utility moves like that (like Vegeta using a Kienzan on the spot because we need him to cut off Gohan's tail somehow) so the plot can be facilitated is alright. So while this instance isn't unreasonable I'm just saying it's quite a long list at this point.

Great looking page, Asura pumping up those details on every panel. I like the look on U13 Vegeta. And of course, props to Luska, hopefully he stays in the team later on.

On another note, what was the point of giving Bra the Roshi move to catch these guys if she just ended up using Galactic Donut on top of that, adding to her insane list of moves? Now she got:
— Kaikai teleportation
— Buu destroying move (that "kiai")
— That overpowered scythe thing move that destroyed Cold
— Clones
— Shield that reflected stuff (stopped Buu from absorbing her too) and can also be casted remotely on allies
— Energy Sword (cuts Kienzans)
— Roshi move
— Galactic Donut
— Some funky visually distinct ki blasts (ignore this one if you want, but still worth noting)
— Mix of all of the above (eg: teleportation + clones + ki barrage spam like against Gast, who also can replicate KaiKai teleportation)

Meanwhile, Goku has shown...
— SS0
— That thin Kamehameha against Vegeta
— Buu killing move
— Instant Kamehameha (already had it before but I'll mention it because he made a cool one on Frieza)
I think that's it? He's been stripped of his iconic Dragon Fist as well.

Vegeta:
— SS0
— Buu killing move
— Energy sword

I don't remember Gotenks showing new moves (not counting the new fusion since it just solves an new DBM issue rather than being a new addition).
I'm starting to think Uub is the only one that'll get a bag rivalling Bra and Vegeto because magic. 3 Replie(s)

That's less SS2 and more "this guy tortured my friends and killed a kind soul in front of my eyes just to push me to this".

But yeah I have nothing against the concept of "SS1 makes you angry (established by the manga), maybe SS2 of some Saiyans might really push you into EVEN ANGRIER territory".
Maybe Bra should have shown some barely controlled anger in SS1. Not "I'm killing Zangya because she trashtalked" anger, more like "Bra vs Eleim, Bra goes SS1, Bra needs to focus to keep in check and not go haywire because this makes her more impulsive". I guess Bra did show annoyance in that fight but that's not exactly the same.
Less smug, more anger. 1 Replie(s)

Bra defending herself in that scene and Vegeto going kill mode weren't the best ways to write that scene imo.
Instead, I think Bra shouldn't have defended herself and Vegeto should have beat her a bit, with nobody stepping in, everyone being shocked from what they saw in the flashback and what they're seeing. Then Vegeto stops because he's not going kill switch, he's just reacting to the insane violence and betrayal Bra has shown, but still knows she might not be utterly irredeemable at that point, he hasn't decided and committed to killing her for good. I don't think the mood and plot is reflecting that Vegeto made that choice back in that chapter either, he wouldn't be standing around his group so casually if that was the case. They'd be a lot more emotionally broken and conflicted, trying to reconnect and such, honestly at that point if things were so serious that Vegeto truly decided to kill Bra right there they should leave the tournament, this whole event means jackshit for them compared to the event that just transpired.

But if Vegeto didn't truly decide to kill Bra, just to beat her ass in (rightful) anger, then they still have room to evolve.
Anyway, in my scenario, Vegeto stops as he looks at at wounded and broken Bra (mentally and physically), and stops with a hint of remorse (despite his good reasons). Basically like a parent beating his kid after he did something REALLY bad, things would be awkward after that. And then you can have self reflection for the two of them, maybe someone can confront Vegeto a little after that but no subduing him, no "fuck you it's all you" publicly. You can have more development a bit later, U16 Bra going to U18 Bra to thank her, to tell her she even idolizes her or something (yes, a bit more emphasis on U18 Bra being the good version of these two than just "i want to be stronger than her", honestly U18 Bra deserved that for what she went through in that majin arc).

Basically if you don't let setback happen then there's no room to breathe, you've put the author's shield in frontlines to protect the big OC from any setback while also asking the reader to like her, right after she pulled some of the most disgusting crimes around (albeit influenced). Not gonna happen. 1 Replie(s)

That's irrelevant. Like I said below, even if you were to stretch the definition and defend that it fits the definition of that trope, a trope is a trope and it should be examined within its context to see the result. I don't think the result warranted this.
That said, I also don't think it qualifies as a Chekhov's Gun. A very small Bra drawn alongside the crowd in the "show everyone at camp" page doesn't qualify as "setting up Bra to be used later". If anything, this is the Chekhov's Gun:

But I don't think there is one at all.


That's a lot of reaching just to give Vegeto and Bra one more technique despite it not being tied to their identity thematically. In fact, the canon explanation based on the novel is that Uub used it and Bra copied it.
But I'm not a fan of it, no matter which explanation you pick. This isn't their identity.


That's true. But he's far from "the martial artist" ideal Goku represents here. Born with nearly infinite strength, having no worthy opponents whatsoever, lacking the spiritual ascension/zen Goku showed multiple times...
Vegeto showing some funky almost SF-like goop energy clones techniques, yeah sure go ahead whatever.
Vegeto showing up with Roshi's move... meh. It's not the same thematically.


I read parts of it, up to the senzu planet and that immortal guy thing. Not sure how it would justify Vegeto being the one to inherit Roshi's moves instead of lifelong devoted martial artist Goku.


That's perfectly fair. And I haven't. The point was clearly to get the "main course" fighters out of the way so that secondary characters could do the job. A plot device but perfectly acceptable, especially since we'd see the main fighters later. It's okay for a whole lot of reasons, not just because the writers have set it this way, but because the writers set up something pretty interesting there. Which I think does not extend to this current resolution (note: resolution, not situation. The good guys having limited numbers was the entire challenge. Bra has come in and swept the entire situation to herself, ending it on the spot. That's a big difference).

You speak of a Chekhov's gun but I wouldn't agree. First, we saw everyone at the camp, Goku was actually back from saving people. If anything, Goku was the gun here, he was the one shown to focus on the place Vegeta and Pan went. Second, your definition is loose and could apply in a lot of ways. Should Tom Bombadil have killed Sauron and destroyed the ring in LOTR? He was set up early right, so it should be defended by this "rule", right? The fact possibilities exist based on what we see doesn't mean every outcome is a good or appropriate one.
What if instead of the Father Son Kamehameha, Goku came back from Heaven (because Grandpa Gohan did, so that's Chekhov's gun) and combined Super Saiyan and Kaioken x20 (Chekhov's gun, Kaioken was always a thing) to kill Cell? Or maybe he teleports Dende to heal Gohan, that seems to fit their powers right? And yet these outcomes are way, waaaaaayy worse than the Father Son Kamehameha on about every level, especially thematic. You can't just rationalize every writing decision by the fact that it might conceivably happen based on the apparent logical rules of the universe.


Well, that's a choice. Saiyans copying moves is one thing that happens... sometimes... (really just Vegeta using Krillin's Kienzan like Freeza also did - and Goku doing that as a kid but that wasn't a "Saiyans" thing)... conceivably, okay. I'm not going to whine about characters copying moves in my fighting manga where Fat Buu can copy "Vegeta's technique". I will, however, complain that:
— I need to read the novelization to know what the hell is happening here (even though I'm sure there are great efforts and love poured into it, I believe the main manga should be self sufficient, especially given that the novelization has tons of non canon stuff and weirdly extended scenes that don't seem to perfectly fit some of the stuff we see). By the way, novel U18 Vegeta could fight U13 Vegeta's SS3 in SS2: am I supposed to pick only Uub's technique but not that powerscaling part?
— This one technique that is a huge callback to early Dragon Ball and the Goku days gets passed to Bra (who is about as far as possible from these things), seemingly for fanservice. Uub using it? Alright, he can inherit Goku's stuff, he's his pupil. Bra? 0 relationship.


That seems pretty accurate, yes. That's not really her half-dad, that's a stranger from another universe, only her "half-dad" in the most technical sense of the word. He has nothing to do with her, and she's not his daughter either. She's not connected to this chapter's premise thematically because she doesn't embody in any way U18 Vegeta's growth whatsoever, and just happens to be the strongest beat stick the good guys have lying around, unlike Goku who has a relationship to Vegeta. And I don't think she should be using the Roshi vs Goku move because she has nothing to do with Roshi or Goku, unlike Uub.


Goku has been and always will be the heart and soul of Dragon Ball, yes. DBM vastly overcorrected in the other direction. Nobody wants Dragon Ball GT (aka Goku Time), but Goku has been sorely lacking in DBM in my opinion.
I'd rather have a Vegeta+Pan+Badass Namekian (I wont forget him) chapter. If Vegeta needs saving it can be done by Goku or by everyone.

Yeah, you know what? Another easy fix to this chapter. Instead of Bra showing up, it's all of Veggie's friends. Goku, Gohan, Trunks, Goten, Piccolo, all his family and friends are worried about him. There you go. POWER OF FRIENDSHIP. "See, U13 Vegeta? You suck because you have no friends". Bam. Easy, straightforward, cheesy too (you can tone it down if you want). Bonus: have Vegeta be the one firing up the Ki blast that alerts his allies. That's HIS trust in his friends (taking precedence over his thirst for battle) saving the day.
It doesn't have to be Goku. It just has to not be Bra. Bra is the worst outcome to this scenario. 3 Replie(s)

That's a matter that was discussed in the previous pages and thus less relevant for today's one, but I'll answer nonetheless: the writers decided 1. Vegeta needed saving and 2. Goku was unavailable but Bra wasn't.
Change any of these and you can have solutions that maintain the sacred internal logic while keeping the chapter and payoff focused on characters that are actually relevant to the matters at hand. 3 Replie(s)

Good: Piccolo avoided getting his shit stolen
Bad: Roshi got his shit stolen

Why exactly is she using Roshi's stuff though? Why would Roshi teach her and why would she listen when she clearly looks down on weaker people? At least use Goku if you had to bring back a (literal) blast from the past, he's the one who was there and experienced it firsthand, from his master. He's the one with the lived experiences that would make him likely to learn that stuff. The man who dedicated his entire life to his noble craft. It would also differentiate him from Vegeta since they're now basically similar in skillset (transformation and moves)


So Vegeto decided to learn that (from Roshi? Despite being depicted as an arrogant prick who looks down on techniques?) and then teach it to her? It's moving the issue somewhere else, now we have to think Vegeto the BIGGER NUMBERRRRR TECHNIQUES DON'T MATTER guy is picking up moves from 12 year old Goku's fights (and then also teaching it to his daughter on top of that) instead of Goku himself?
Goku is the martial artist with an eternal wall to scale here, I think these moves are thematically way more appropriate in his bag than these guys who are pretty disconnected from these martial arts roots.. 6 Replie(s)

Gohan being relatable to most readers at the time is a huge reason for his insane popularity. Righteous anger that complements a gentle silent peaceful nature is how a lot of kids felt. The fact that him having the biggerer number in those explosion moments might not exactly adhere to the way our reality works is irrelevant to these feelings.


That's not what Gohan was about. That's a late Buu arc powerup, half joke. It came after a bunch of training too, and Gohan was never implied to remain the strongest. That's a DBM thing. In GT and Super Gohan is turned into a weakling for a while.


He's pressuring mass murdering scums to stay in line for his family and friends sake. A very far cry from the kind of smugness we're talking about. In fact I'm pretty sure you'd struggle hard to find a single panel of smug Gohan in these 2500 pages, he's a serious nice dad dedicated to his goals and he's never strayed from this "voice of reason" role. Meanwhile I could probably make a 5000x5000 collage of Bra smug pics if I tried to.

Pas vraiment d'accord, il est apparemment moins fort que Cell. Pas Cell super parfait. Pas même Cell parfait. Cell 2. Je trouve ça juste ... Triste, ce mec est là pour se faire exploser le cerveau par Bra comme dans un snuff movie et perdre un vieux 1v2 contre Freezer et Cooler ? Un 1v2 que Goku de l'arc cyborgs aurait gagné probablement d'ailleurs.


Je ne suis pas d'accord sur ce point, elle s'amuse tout le long hein. J'imagine que je n'ai pas besoin de faire une compilation de ses smug faces ou du plaisir qu'elle prend à massacrer sa propre famille et se moquer des survivants. Elle se comporte absolument pas comme une personne moralement tiraillée ici. Majin Vegeta était beaucoup plus tiraillé y a même pas photo c'est même pas proche.

Au delà de la "responsabilité juridique" de Bra (aka la défense "adolescente, pas responsable", ou "majin, pas responsable"), je pense que le problème est beaucoup plus simple : Bra est le perso le plus controversé et critiqué de DBM là où un Vegeta est le deuxième plus populaire de DBZ.
La défense Vegeta tient pas. Il y a un certain nombre de bonnes raisons à ça et c'est pas du sexisme, Phipsil est ultra populaire.

Piccolo mérite un peu mieux oui. Surtout après s'être fait poutrer par Cooler. 1 Replie(s)

There's no more permanent consequences than this

And especially not a single page of Pan going "you're a killer Bra" before going "maybe Bra isn't a bad person... maybe there's another side to her" 10 pages later.

This is a shonen, not real life. Narratively satisfying consequences happen on screen, in fights. 1 Replie(s)

Yeah, I'm now fully rooting for U13 Vegeta but sadly he can't do jackshit against his overpowered opponent.


She's the strongest! That means she HAS to be here


Gohan trained, but that's besides the point. People love Gohan because he's a great character people emotionally resonated with. Not because his strength made sense by your magic kung fu powerscaling rules.

You know Bra could have been exploring whatever island or anything to justify her not being there, right?

The writers write the story. Stop pretending they're forced to write things one way because of how "logical" things are. They had no issue making Gohan hurt Bra despite being like 10 times weaker during the Majin arc and guess what? It was pretty awesome. Not because Bra bad, but because it was a cool combo move. Even though it made no sense powerlevel wise.

There are ways to write a satisfying shonen story with satisfying payoffs, but Salagir seems incredibly intent on refusing to deliver on these payoffs for subversion sake alone. 1 Replie(s)

Bra et Vegeto sont complètement différents. Genre, à l'opposé. Vegeto est le punching bag de l'oeuvre, humilié en permanence et critiqué pour ses actions relativement compréhensibles. Bra est TOUT LE TEMPS mise en valeur, en avant, et ses actions sont défendues par les personnages comme la narration qui esssayent tous deux de sous entendre que ses petits défauts sont le résultat de Vegeto alors qu'on l'a vue essayer de trucider sa famille et sa planète bien avant ces histoires (et ensuite réussir à le faire ... Deux fois)

Est-ce qu'elle est techniquement une Mary Sue ? Pas sûr, ce terme s'appliquerait plus à Buu de toute façon.
Est-ce qu'elle fait du mal à DBM en étant le perso principal qui pompe l'air à tout le reste du cast de manière artificielle et forcée ? À mon sens oui. 1 Replie(s)

Je ne suis pas d'accord sur le postulat que nécessairement "ambiguité = qualité". Mais si c'est ton avis, soit.
Cela dit, est-ce que cette ambiguité existe ? Pas vraiment. Bra a une personnalité détestable et jamais de conséquences réelles. Moralement son ambiguité réside uniquement dans la défense "elle était gamine quand elle se réjouissait d'avoir tué Goten et chopé le SS2 donc techniquement on la condamnerait peut-être pas dans un tribunal" ainsi que la défense "Majin = 0% responsable de ses actions". Ca reste un perso détestable par ses actions en plus de sa personnalité.


C'est marrant parce que toute cette tentative d'ambiguité disparaît quand c'est Vegeto alors que dans les faits, ses seuls crimes c'est de penser qu'il bat tout le monde à la bagarre et d'être énervé quand il voit que ce n'est pas le cas. Vegeto montre par ses actions une fibre morale bien plus respectable que sa fille. C'est pas lui qui tue sa famille, c'est lui qui se hurle dessus pour avoir eu la mauvaise pensée de vouloir taper sa famille lorsqu'ils l'humilient en public.
D'ailleurs, le roman essaye de le peindre en méchant en faisant en sorte qu'il considère mettre Pan en danger pour que Gohan se batte contre lui (ridicule à mon avis) mais le roman fait pareil pour notre Vegeta censé être mature, gentil et sociable. Oups.


1. "Nouveau" n'est pas synonyme de "judicieux", "meilleur" ou "approprié". Si Toriyama avait fait un arc Buu où tout le monde mourait dans d'atroces souffrances qui se terminait par la victoire de Babidi, ça serait innovant, ça sortirait des schémas, ça serait aussi de la merde sans aucun réel propos autre que la shock value.
2. Personne ne réclame Vegeta 2.0. On rejette la proposition que Bra doit siphonner toute l'histoire comme un trou noir et que personne ne peut la critiquer car Vegeta tuait des gens.
Il y a un Multivers entier avec un cast de personnages extrêmement large, certains extrêmement sous exploités (l'univers 9 en premier). Il y a ribambelle de personnages liés à Vegeta qui peuvent venir sauver Vegeta lors du chapitre Vegeta (s'il fallait le sauver tout court plutôt que le faire gagner ou quelque chose proche). Des dizaines de possibilités autres que "Vegeta perd ET Bra vient le sauver".


Moralement ? Pas vraiment, ils ont fait des barbecues avec Vegeta pendant 1 an après Namek.
Narrativement ? Oui, parce que Bra est un trou noir de charisme qui fait grogner nombre de lecteurs depuis bien longtemps et qui s'évertue à saboter toutes les intrigues où elle fourre son nez (beaucoup, donc), celle-ci étant le dernier exemple en date.

Yes, very much so. Give me literally anyone else please. Any other outcome. I was rooting for U18 Vegeta/Pan/The Namekian as this team of underdogs facing unfavorable odds and having to pull through, now I'm rooting for U13 Vegeta and his buddies. They're the underdogs facing the author's pet now. 2 Replie(s)

Le bouclier misogynie il est bien beau mais les propos n'ont aucun sens.

Vegeta se fait humilier EN PERMANENCE. Dans la culture populaire, Vegeta est le "jobber" qui est là pour se faire casser la gueule avant que Goku finisse le méchant. Tellement que les gens demandent à ce qu'on laisse Vegeta gagner contre un grand méchant pour une fois, pour changer. C'est censé être le "Enfin! Vegeta a ENFIN son heure de gloire !" (et il l'a jamais vraiment eue ça revient toujours vers Goku).

Bra c'est exactement l'inverse en fait, même quand elle perd elle perd pas. Elle est incroyablement plus forte que Gast, tellement qu'elle doit même le remarquer à voix haute pour le lecteur quand Gast galère contre un faiblard comme Janemba.
D'ailleurs je crois avoir déjà vu cette comparaison avec Vegeta dans d'autres débats et elle n'a jamais eu de sens. Vegeta a toujours été une figure antagoniste/anti-villain, il a pas du tout le même rôle que Bra et c'est (pour de bonnes raisons) un des personnages les plus populaires qui soient. Bref, l'analogie ne tient pas.

Quant à la comparaison avec Vegeto c'est pas mieux. Vegeto c'est juste censé être la culmination des héros qui fusionnent pour faire le héros ultime, ultra charismatique mais aussi fun, qui arrive et repart 3 chapitres après. Si on parle de la version DBM, Vegeto est souvent critiqué pour ses excès de colère ultra gamins, sauf que comme l'histoire fait exprès de le diaboliser à outrance tout en mettant Bra en valeur par le même procédé, la fatigue des lecteurs retombe sur Bra ou l'écriture, ce qui n'a rien à voir avec le sexe. Ah oui, et Vegeto est censé être un personnage de Dragon Ball de base, pas un ajout complet de fanfic, il personnifie le "Goku+Vegeta" ultime donc oui il a beaucoup + de légitimité à être OP.


Quel effet escompté ?
1. Faire des choix discutables d'écriture
2. Recevoir des critiques
3. Troller les critiques
4. Recevoir des critiques (à nouveau)

Ok ?
Le reste de ton message évite délibérément les problèmes soulevés par l'analogie Vegeta/Bra et fait exprès de caricaturer toutes les critiques rationnelles formulées en les attribuant à des personnes qui n'ont rien à voir et des commentaires qui datent d'il y a plus de 10 ans, de personnes qui ne sont sûrement même pas ici. Mais ça marche pas sur moi, après tout je suis un grand féministe car je défendais Bulma pendant le chapitre spécial de Gast. 1 Replie(s)

Exactly this. I'm actually rooting for U13 Vegeta here and I'm not sure that was the intent. 1 Replie(s)

Le problème c'est qu'elle a récidivé en fait. D'abord elle a failli détruire la Terre contre Gohan qui a dû lui faire généreusement une colonie de vacances pour lui apprendre à se calmer. Ensuite elle a tué Goten/une galaxie entière et sa réaction c'est "oh yeah, Super Saiyan 2 pour moi !!" puis "c'est pas juste je mérite pas d'être traitée comme ça !!" quand Vegeto est venu dire les choses comme elles étaient. Après ça elle promet à Vegeto de se calmer contre Zangya (et la tue frame 1), puis elle tue tout le monde pendant l'arc Majin (possédée à un degré arbitraire non clairement défini, puisque Nappa par exemple se fait taper par Gohan après l'arc pour ses actions) avant d'échapper à la possession parce qu'elle aime pas être appelée "passive".
Ca fait trop, et elle est juste adorée par la plupart des personnages (et ne subit jamais de contrecoup, défaite, etc) malgré ces actions. C'est complètement différent d'un Piccolo Saiyan ou d'un Vegeta Cell.

Et après tout ça c'est elle qui vient dire qu'elle va tuer Vegeta s'il fait le con, et maintenant c'est elle qui vient sauver Vegeta pendant le chapitre Vegeta. C'est beaucoup.

Le fait que Vegeto soit érigé en grand méchant loup et publiquement humilié alors que jusqu'ici il a été sacrément raisonnable (bien plus que sa fille) n'aide pas.


Le pire étant que malgré toutes ces modifications Vegeto reste sacrément raisonnable. Ca a beau le faire crier comme un enfant pour le décrédibiliser (façon homme de paille) ou faire venir d'autres personnages dire que c'est un rat, c'est lui le plus normal.


Absolument. Pas uniquement parce qu'on (je?) en a marre de voir Bra à toutes les sauces, dans tous les combats, avec toutes les nouvelles techniques, avec les chapitres spéciaux, le screentime.... Mais aussi parce que cette Bra n'a rien en commun avec Vegeta 18 (non ce n'est pas sa fille ou sa demi fille) contrairement à Goku et ne se greffe pas du tout au propos de ce chapitre qui était censé parler de Vegeta 18 et sa croissance, de ses alliés. La seule justification qu'on aura (je prédis) c'est que ça résout la dispute avec Vegeta le chapitre précédent, sauf que non je suis pas d'accord ça pouvait très bien donner le même résultat si Goku ou Gohan sauvaient Vegeta et Bra avait juste vu que Vegeta s'était sacrifié pour Pan après coup. 1 Replie(s)

Wow, Bra saves the day. Color me surprised 4 Replie(s)

I mean, in the same sense that Fat Buu was a joke character. They're fun and do lots of wacky stuff but they're strong and threatening too.

Gotenks was also a powerhouse and not the butt of every joke but rather the one making them, a lot of the time.


That's just wrong. Everyone was in awe when they first saw him. In fact Piccolo even entertained the idea that base Gotenks might have been able to beat Super Buu since he got stronger after his time in the room. Super Saiyan Gotenks was also strong enough to fight Super Buu, although in a losing battle, which is far more than any Super Saiyan 2 can say. But then his Super Saiyan 3 only makes him stronger than Super Buu (not vastly stronger) which seems to indicate these jumps between transformation powerlevels aren't consistent (and they aren't, Toriyama just wanted to draw Gotenks with long hair)

You could conceivably apply the same (lack of) rule to Vegeto and Bra if you wanted to. It seems Salagir doesn't and tries to keep some kind of "consistent" multiplier going. 1 Replie(s)

Bra hasn't gotten better in the meantime though, if anything I'd say the opposite. I doubt many people actually changed their minds about her.

Of all the people that could show up this is the least satisfying option of the bunch for me. Why would you bring Bra of all people to bail out Vegeta here? Goku has an actual connection to Vegeta and the Saiyans.

Hell, why does Vegeta need bailing out? Especially this fast. If he had to sacrifice himself to protect his comrades and later be saved by them, I wish they'd make it a little more grandiose and spectacular than "gets punched twice, goodbye"


The writers are the one who wrote it this way. It'd have been possible to write a fight where Vegeta succeeds in his goals, whether it's by defeating U13 Vegeta after a tough fight, or by accomplishing his goals by outsmarting U13 Vegeta and calling for his friends or something while also saving Pan (and preferably not being frozen so he could at least be conscious to see his "moral win" unfold).

This is just the worst outcome possible for Vegeta. He barely did anything other than a headbutt, protecting Pan from the Cui attack (nothing very impressive) and getting btfo'd by a punch. Then getting saved by OC Bra of all people instead of anyone he actually knows and has a relationship with.


That's how the writers decided to write this. There were dozens of alternative possible scenarios. Make Bra be busy doing something so someone else saves Vegeta. This is perfectly possible.
I don't like this argument of supposedly being constrained by logical rules (which get bent whenever needed anyway for rule of cool, eg Gohans not being instantly killed by SS2 Bra and damaging her somehow). The writers decide what they write, these events don't conjure themselves out of thin air. 2 Replie(s)

Bon j'espère que Vegeta 18 s'est pas fait bouffer par Vegeta 13.

"L'une de l'autre" ? C'est grammaticalement correct ? 1 Replie(s)

18 probably used the patented Vegeto clone.

Alright, U13geta is cool again.

Great art and paneling. Honestly props to Asura going all out this chapter, that's way cooler and more interesting than the Kienzan debates lol.

These multipliers aren't stated in the manga and not taken into account by DBM. I remember Salagir stating SS2 would be more of a 10x multiplier if they had to put a number on it. Which would definitely make more sense, a Gohan that lost half his power defeated Super Perfect Cell who was way, waay stronger than an SS1.

Of course the real explanation for this is that it's way more satisfying to have Pan fight than completely erase her because of dumb numbers that were never consistent in the first place. SS1 Trunks sent Fat Buu flying deep into a mountain and Vegeta fought Kid Buu in base, you can't really explain any of these no matter how much you push for "Buu's holding back". 1 Replie(s)

I dont really like the new Kienzan meta. Not very Dragon Ball. 2 Replie(s)

DBZ logic. DBM logic wouldn't have this. To be fair I prefer the way this is currently done.

And as always the Namekian is a funny guy. 1 Replie(s)

For some reason Pan doesn't get instakilled like Mystic Gohan's victims during the Majin Rebellion 2 Replie(s)

Alright, friendship speech over, we're back to the cool lines. Love the first two panels. Maybe U18 Vegeta should've said "two days ago" instead of "the day before yesterday" though?

I really like the fact Asura drew the entire trio in a cool way in the last panel. U18 Vegeta is supposed to be about friendship and stuff... well he has his party and he's leading them. That's cool. Of course they're a bit of a liability here too but that's besides the point, they're all going to fight as hard as they can. This is the good stuff.


Based on the French dialogue, Vegeta isn't blaming U13 Vegeta for exploiting weaknesses but rather saying it's something that should be done in general. A good thing.
I... can't say I love that part. I'd rather have him say this to trash U13 Vegeta.
And I say that as someone who loves Namek Vegeta far more than Cell Vegeta. So why? Well, Namek Vegeta just tells Guldo "I never agreed to your rules, nothing's fair in battle" after backstabbing him. But he's also still there to call himself the strongest or future strongest.
Basically he definitely used trickery on people but he didn't make this part of his identity and self actualization. He didn't go on speeches to explain "I am Vegeta, I hit under the belt". He just did it when it was necessary and when someone called him out he laughed at their face and moved on.
I guess my issue with this point stems more from the speech he made in front of Cell and less with the current page's little mention of unfairness.

... Yeah not a fan of that exchange. U13 Vegeta's line here is fine and expected, him starting to blush after Pan's stupid POWER OF FRIENDSHIP speech along with the Namekian commenting on things as if they were in a Marvel movie, not so much.

Well, moving into the fight thankfully. I guess it's SS3 vs SS3 now but Vegeta also has to protect his friends.

It is, but I think it could be brought more naturally.

Okay that's a bit too corny at this point.. I'm even willing to call this OOC. Not that the characters are saying wrong things (they're all facts) but they wouldn't just start listing all of these things like they're in an Internet debate or something. The substance would normally be the same but not told like that, especially not with U13 Vegeta bringing up timelines of all things.

At least I'm liking the Namekian here. He's the real cool guy in this scene. A single good one liner. Nothing else is needed. And he's a stranger but he already got our guys back. Cheers for him.

Also really cool first panel. Asura nailed it. 2 Replie(s)

Pan looks good here. Vegeta not so much though, weird face. I like 18's attitude here, she's not exactly having a great time either.

Absolument génial, énorme bravo à l'auteur.

I really like the bits of exploration, been missing those since Namek. Asura portrays these weird landscapes really well. This might really take advantage of the multiverse setting.

What I'm not a big fan of is Vegeta effectively replacing Goku as Pan's grandpa. DBM has been a bit heavyhanded on that, it was nice at the beginning but Goku hasn't been getting any time with Pan while Vegeta got tons of these moments.


I agree but then again DBM went and had Gohan explain density and Zen Buu relative speeds instead of leaving the audience with simple assumptions of "wow Vegeto powering up good" and "wow Broly floating in space".
Less is more tbh

Le style d'Asura change un peu avec des traits + épais et anguleux, personnellement j'aime bien c'est assez cool et démarqué. A voir comment ça s'appliquera ou si ça restera sur le long terme. Possible que je change d'avis mais j'ai plutôt confiance. Si je devais chipoter ça serait plutôt les visages de profil qui sont parfois un peu bizarres sur la forme.

I agree on principle. Dragon Ball IS change. Bulma's everchanging design is a great example of this. Generally speaking I think DBM does a decent job at balancing the "aging" part (sometimes too heavy handed but often alright imo)
In execution I think this Bulma cover is on the heavy handed side.

Being 100% realistic, it's not an unbelievable design, as EoZ Bulma already had a pretty aged design (mostly due to the haircut but she had that one line around the mouth Toriyama always gives his older characters). But design often follows function, and EoZ Bulma looking like a naggy HR lady kind of follows the "epilogue" part of the story (Super making Bulma younger isn't bad in itself but giving her a single design is artistic stasis imo).Future Bulma was older than EoZ Bulma yet looked quite younger, just giving that "scrappy future fighter" energy. She's also only 7 years younger than this current Bulma.


I guess this is really nitpicking at very minute details, but we're discussing a decades long Dragon Ball fanfiction so I might as well go all in for the sake of it.

Personally I'd nerf one of the mouth line (the right one is actually two lines) and maybe the forehead one.


I think it's more or less in line with future Bulma + 7.
Or I'd make Bulma's hair a bit more vivid. The cover made all the Briefs hair a white-ish shade of purple, which is a fine artistic choice but it makes Bulma look even older even though she has the same hair shade as her daughter. She's not a grandma yet btw! Almost, but...

Really cool cover. Very big fan of Vegeta's family man look here. Not a big fan of Bulma looking quite that elderly though. 2 Replie(s)

Can XXI beat the fraud allegations

Pourquoi autant de seum sur DBS ? Qu'on aime ça ou non c'est la seule suite "canon" avec ses qualités et ses défauts. Mais surtout je ne vois pas trop ce qu'elle vient faire ici.

Apples to oranges. When you need to introduce a new arc with a new villain, that guy is going to be strong. That's a plot necessity and it can be explained and handled properly. Thorn consistently shitting on all these established characters is completely arbitrary. You can easily rewrite his dialogues so that he's not an insufferable nerd and it would work just fine, even better.


Yeah that part is pretty clear, although I wouldn't ever call Thorn a damsel in distress. Gast is specialized in brawn but is also very smart and measured. Similarly, Thorn is specialized in smarts (to absurd levels) but can also just come out and zap killer androids looking for him despite supposedly being physically weak (like, sub Zarbon level?)


I fundamentally disagree for a variety of reasons. First and foremost, Bulma didn't shit on ESTABLISHED characters. She's not a fanfiction character introduced long after the original story shitting on the OGs that were there from day one, or on the guys that set in motion entire arcs, for no reason at all. Even if you were able to portray Bulma and Thorn as similar (which I think you definitely can't), this would still make a huge difference. They're not the same.

Second, Bulma isn't "A smartass who knows everything better". That's Thorn. Bulma is a silly teenage girl with technical skills who was put in a comedic duo with a stupid monkey boy. The punchline isn't "Wow, Bulma sure is smart!", it's "Wow, Goku sure is a bumpkin!"

In fact... there's basically no way for Bulma to be a smartass solving things with her 500 IQ, even if Toriyama wanted to, because the arcs in which she takes an active role don't really have that many situations that would involve these. They're basically road trips. They just drive around in cars, encounter weird things and deal with them with a mix of jokes and fighting. She's comic relief.

And you know what? It's not the first time I've seen this Bulma-Thorn comparison, so I'll come up with receipts and show what I mean.

This is Bulma at the end of the first chapter. Honestly I think that single image says more than a lengthy analysis, but let's check the entire first Hunt for Dragon Balls arc.

This is Bulma and Goku's comedic routine when it's about "Bulma being the smartest one in the room".

Notice how it's actually never about Bulma being smart, but rather about Goku being endearingly ignorant. In fact, Bulma IS pretty dumb herself too. In the second picture she actually believes boys have a tail. Can you ever see Thorn pulling off something similar instead of talking about biology and random science shit? I don't think we'll ever see that.

In fact, Bulma and Goku's duo often flips the roles around with Bulma being the delusional one, which makes for nice comedic contrast.


Bulma is often herself the butt of the joke or the one to make random mistakes (not just for "balancing her from being OP" but because it makes for funny and human moments)


And finally, Bulma isn't the one who makes most of the "brains" related breakthroughs. At all. In fact, I could only see these "brains" moments in the entire arc:

Mostly Yamcha's work. Let's see Bulma's contributions when it comes to being smart:


A diarrhea pill, and fishing with her panties.
That's it. This is the entire Hunt for Dragon Balls arc. You can tell me if I missed or misremembered something, but this is how Bulma is written. She drives a car, builds goofy stuff that makes for nice jokes (or facilitates the plot when our guys need a ship or a time machine) and suffers from either a lack of common sense or too much common sense when she's around people saying silly things.


That's not what Thorn is.


Again, I disagree. That's why I went on this lengthy message: I like Bulma. She's great, she's iconic and popular (for a good reason). As a normal girl and non fighter, she's the "human" anchor of Dragon Ball. She's the one that gets these endings: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUXe8vqdvx4
Meanwhile, as you can probably tell, I hate Thorn with passion. In my opinion he's a cold and soulless walking infodump, merely there to embody the concept of "super smart alien". All of his dialogues are tailored towards this. It's narratively sterile at best and infuriating in its execution at worst. DBM can write cool and interesting stuff, but Thorn just isn't it.

This is just one Thorn wank moment among many, we might have to make a compilation of those. It happens like every three pages he appears in, or maybe two...
Ultimately it's just the writer's choice to make him look smarter and cooler than Bulma, her dad and even Gero. It's just not appealing, even moreso because they're important OG characters. 1 Replie(s)

Thorn is smarter than Gero because why not. Maybe he should build his own SSJ3 tier androids lol. 1 Replie(s)

Oh hey that's a nice payoff. Krillin's perspective is interesting here and Gohan inheriting Goku's will is touching. Hopefully they don't randomly all die later.

Not sure about Goku not having a symbol on his Gi, it disappeared during Cell but in this universe he died before that, right? So he should still have Kame/Kaio/Go.

Chicken Man Gohan and Krillin are probably the coolest parts about this chapter. I don't think the twist makes perfect sense (no point in lying to Gast... maybe the "diplomat" dipshit calling themselves neutral blurred the line?) but I think it's also fun and makes for an entertaining twist, so I'll gladly sweep the mechanics under the rug. It's just nice.

And a final "shut up" to Thorn as the chapter nears its end. There's no big intergalactic war here, this is Dragon Ball Earth, the space Vegeto stuff doesn't extend here. The king of the world is a dog after all. They just won, there's nothing else to add.

Why aren't they reviving Gohan though. 1 Replie(s)

Finally, a much deserved W for Bulma after being patronized by the super special OC for the entire previous chapter.

She still deserves more, but I'll take this. 1 Replie(s)

Huh. Interesting direction.

Equal rights Piccolo. Good... 1 Replie(s)

Things make more sense on this page. Goku said what should've been said 2 pages ago. Except I don't buy Vegeta being intimidated by Piccolo's threats. He wouldn't go along with that. 4 Replie(s)

Not exactly, characters can have flaws (Goku and Vegeta did). Vegeto is just way too far in the other direction. Kind of a narrative punching bag actually, so much that him actually managing to fuck up XXI (even if it partly backfired) was a nice change.
It's not so much that I have a fundamental issue with that, but he's basically the underdog we (or at least I) want to see succeed at this point, and if the story isn't aware they built up Vegeto to be the underdog it can lead to weird outcomes. That, and the fact he just doesn't fit the way I'd see DBZ Vegeto develop if he remained Vegeto, but after 2000 pages this criticism shouldn't apply anymore.

I'll just say it's not very accurate to say the only other possibility is perfect infallible ultra hero Vegeto. Because I hate perfect infallible characters like Zen Buu. It can be done in different ways.


The issue isn't that Vegeta is getting this treatment. This is what you'd expect and enjoy from post Buu arc Vegeta: basically the payoff of his Buu arc development. Small moments like these that (subtly?) highlight how far he's come are perfectly expected and palatable, in my opinion. In comparison, Bra or Buu get scenes that are explicitly focused on them. Multiple pages spent to debate them and show how good they are. Random characters praising them explicitly. It's just not similar, not even close, and I didn't even bring up screentime yet because that also makes a huge difference.

Let's say that most of U18 Vegeta highlights are isolated panels where the reader goes "oh yeah that's our Vegeta, Salagir has a good idea of where the character stands at this point of his arc" while Bra or Buu highlights are entire scenes with forced (imo) dialogues meant to sell them to the reader.
Why doesn't Goku get that? I don't know, that's an issue with Salagir not giving Goku enough love rather than Vegeta getting too much. People (me first) have complained about U18 being secondary characters for most of this story (which seems to be a deliberate choice, just not a good one imo). Vegeta can (sometimes) get what he deserves, now it's time to give Goku more. Not Vegeta less. Time can be taken from other things, if that's the concern.


U10 Vegeta is such a footnote I don't think he deserves a mention.
That just leaves you with two Vegetas that are actually in the tournament, and two more Vegetas playing a role in special chapters that revolve around Saiyans (before dying to the actual participants of this universe). How are you supposed to write a backstory with Saiyans without considering their prince and strongest member?
And for each highlight they get they often get their shit kicked in. Hyper Vegeta lost, and most Vegetas will die.


Wanting to prioritize revenge over safety is a good enough character flaw. Flaring a Super Saiyan 2 aura at the face of an Earthling part of his family (even from another universe) is going too far. Gohan saying "he wont kill her because we can kill him" is on a whole other level. It's a 3 steps process, most people were fine at step 1, starting to complain at step 2, and noticing the deranging implications of step 3.
Hell, forget about flaws. Gohan said "I know Vegeta wont kill my family because I'd beat his ass" in front of Vegeta. What does that say about these guys relationships? It's extremely incongruent with what was shown both in DBZ and DBM.


I don't see it. Even kid (teen) Goku made a distinction between "competition level max power" and "deathmatch max power". Goku has always been extremely in control and reasonable.



That's a Vegeta thing. Vegeta puts people in harm's way recklessly. Goku does his very best to avoid that even when it can be undone. He even got a job offer to become God of the Earth.


Assuming it's relevant to the story (and most of the time it is), it's not the kind of author pet treatment people usually bring up for some characters. This connects more to lore (because DBM really loves lore/infodumping) than character getting wanked.

Yes, but Pan was in the way too. You can see it in page 1808 and in the first panel of page 1809. Gohan's words are also very clear, he put "his daughter in danger". This implies "you shot a nuke in her direction" rather than "you almost destroyed the door". With Pan falling on her ass with the blast coming her way (except Gohan was in front to shield) and her breaking down in tears right after that because of the shock (partly, but in my opinion not ENTIRELY, because she saw another facet of her dad), the situation is quite clear: Vegeta didn't take Pan hostage to get a Mystic Gohan showing, but he endangered her directly in a way that made her break down in tears and Gohan quite angry.

I maintain it's OOC for a post Buu saga Vegeta. I like that he's not entirely neutered and mellowed out, but this is too far in the opposite direction.


For that Vegeta would have to
1. actually matter in the grand scheme of things. Frankly speaking he doesn't. Bra has gotten like thrice the focus he got.
2. get narrative handjobs all the time, which he.... gets sometimes but not really that often? Here are the ones I see: trashtalking Kakarot (but it's about his peers as much as his development), being the one to coach Pan (actually that was too far, what was Goku doing?? HE'S THE GRANDFATHER), Super Saiyan 0 (doesn't count that much, it's a Dragon Ball sequel, Goku and Vegeta not showing anything new would be profoundly stupid) and maybe his fight against Cell (except he had to use tactics to make up for being kinda weak, I'm not even expecting Vegeta to beat a serious Cell, he might lose even with Super Saiyan 0, and he didn't even get the main artist to draw the fight while Bra got him for the highlight of her special chapter). Maybe you could give him that he beat Goku once in a sparing match (but then he lost in the tournament to Goku, twice if you count the cliffhanger as a loss)

Meanwhile he received so many "wow, they're stronger than us Vegeta!" lines that it was even played as a joke. Bra never actually lost a fight so far (I don't count the Zen Buu one, even Vegeto thanked her for going SS2) except for Gohan and Vegeto oneshotting her when she went berserk as a child. She just keeps winning, all the time, even when her hubris would normally dictate otherwise. She has an INSANE streak going on, seriously. Showed more new techniques than Vegeta did too.



I don't see how "he's good actually" is harder to conceptualize than "look he's bad but we can beat him up if he tries something so even though he's been acting aggressive when you, stronger than anyone here, threatened him, I guarantee we keep him in check with our strengths".
And like I said above it doesn't prove what they need to prove (that this guy, who's far weaker than her and therefore expendable, is an ally worth sparing rather than a bomb waiting to blow up when there aren't people stronger than him there to keep him in check).

Forget about that, even if we were to agree on the premise that Gohan just dumbed things down for Bra, then this just tanks Bra instead of Vegeta. This passes the "idiot ball" around. Because now it's not Gohan talking about Vegeta like he's a piece of shit, but rather Bra who's toddlers level of stupid (yet able to pull insane teleport tactics in battle at the same time). There's no winning with this line, it shoots someone no matter how you read it. The only winning move is to go "don't read too much into it", but it's hard not to. 1 Replie(s)

Extremely OOC for post Buu saga Vegeta imo.



I see no reason to ever think Vegeta would just randomly kill Videl because she said some mean words and disagree with him on the way to do things. To be fair it's not that inconsistent when he shot a Ki blast at Pan just to make a point about Gohan, which I think he would never do after the Buu arc... So my take on it is that it's DBM consistent but DB inconsistent (or OOC, rather).


"He's not a traitor who'd kill our allies because of mood swings" is a lot more important than making a point about current powerlevels. A point that is already made since Bra knows she's overpowered in the first place, she doesn't need any Gohan to do shit.

I think the writers tried too hard to either make a reference to the Pan situation where Gohan threatened Vegeta, or they wanted to flex Gohan (since they really like that "we've got two Gohans, we can handle it" line). But it just doesn't solve the drama and address these characters appropriately since now we're actually discussing the genocidal Vegeta like he's still a part of his character even 10 years after EoZ. 1 Replie(s)

That really doesn't help. Now Bra thinks they have a mad dog in their ranks who'd randomly kill their own because of anger issues and is expendable since they have Bra (way stronger), two Gohans (stronger), Goku (as strong), and Gotenks (way stronger)
I'd have more reasons to kill Vegeta at that point, not less.

Bra is also way stronger than Vegeta and she doesn't seem convinced Vegeta wont randomly bissect her aunt, what does Gohan add by also being stronger (but less)? 1 Replie(s)

"Because he's surrounded by two Gohans"

What?
This exchange is just weird to me. At that point they shouldn't be actually debating this seriously, why would Vegeta be threatening Videl of all people and why would this possibility be taken seriously at all by anyone other than Bra?

"Hey we got off the wrong foot but Videl didn't mean to insult you and Vegeta isn't the kind of guy who'd randomly kill his allies and family, let's focus on finding those balls and we'll know better at that point" should end this exchange. We don't need the Two Gohans reassuring us they're the ones holding Vegeta's leash like he's a mad dog.

... But even though I'm saying that, I actually like Vegeta's line to Piccolo here. Not sure why, it feels fitting though. Vegeta shouldn't be treated like a mad dog but it's also avoiding the other extreme where he just becomes a stoic boring "mellowed down" character.

Cheers to Vegeta responding in kind. We know the powerlevels wont allow him to, but he's got the right spirit.
I want to think if our boys believe hard enough they're not jobbers they might actually make it.

Transition between the last two panels is pretty funny. I was a bit confused by it for a second. Piccolo is always a good straight man. Kinda wish we'd see his crazier side more often but it did fizzle out a bit since his fusion with Kami (so that's on Toriyama). That said I'd be the first to cheer if DBM gave him that Ma Junior shit eating smile again if there was a situation for it.

And I guess Asura's Vegeta and generally speaking Asura's Super Saiyan hair look really nice. I criticized his Goku faces a little before but he can make some GORGEOUS Vegetas.

Brainfart on my end. I didn't mean to imply I was correcting you since we're basically on the same page: this is a fan thing rather than an in universe thing. It came out badly though. That said:


I was genuinely just sharing something I liked here, there was no attempt at snark. I don't think people have time to reread 40 volumes whenever they want and, but fresh outlooks can highlight interesting changes in opinion. I guess it sounded wrong after my earlier brainfart, whatever. 1 Replie(s)

This happens all the time in Dragon Ball. Even strategic moves like "please take your time killing the Earthlings Buu" is done with heavy sadness and reluctance. Just look at Dende's reaction. This idea about death not mattering is largely a fan thing.

As for Bulma, she's endearing from the start imo. What you're saying, if I understand, is that she mellowed out after Namek and started acting less bratty? Which might or might not be true (I dont think her personality changed so much between Namek and Buu for instance) but my point isn't that she was never bratty, but rather than this attitude of hers was used in situations that made it funny and a good time. She's the spoiled rich girl that was sorely needed to balance Goku's purity and make cool situations happen.

Try giving the manga a reread when you have time if you're still curious about this, it's kinda hard to explain with words alone. You might end up appreciating her more than you remember. 1 Replie(s)

Vegeta was meant to be a weird mix between antagonist and protagonist at that point. Not exactly an antivillain but he wasn't sitting in Bra's shoes. Nobody would jump in to defend Vegeta back then like they did for Bra after the Majin fiasco.


Bulma is funny, charming and endearing. She gets her (comedic, at times) comeuppance too. She's a balanced character and one of the faces of the series at this point, probably one of the best and most underrated female characters in shonen (they don't need to throw punches to be good).
I guess my point is that it's not just about powerlevels. But I see we're on the same page. That said:


That's just too easy of an excuse. Despite having Dragon Balls, death still hits people. Bra sparing no thoughts about it is... a first in Dragon Ball?




Probably not happening sadly. It'd be ironic because this is the one case where Vegeta would actually be at fault rather than Bra herself, lol. An anti-plotshield, if you will. 3 Replie(s)

Bra being insufferable, what a surprise.

It's not that her reaction is unwarranted. If Vegeta looks like he's threatening Videl, it's 100% justified. But why would Vegeta look like he's about to kill an innocent woman, basically an alterego of a family member, suffering from the same grief as him? Well... well... I don't know, but we need to justify Bra spanking him. So there we go, she does exactly that, and she's justified in doing so. I can't say this is enjoyable in any way, much less so after the Majin Arc.

Faut pas se faire d'illusions, Bra éclate ce Vegeta et c'est absolument pas satisfaisant à voir mdr, c'est juste frustrant de rappeler ça encore une fois après que Bra ait roulé sur le cast entier pendant 100 pages.

Au delà de ça, l'interaction est... "réaliste" ? Enfin, si on excepte Vegeta qui passe en SSJ2 de manière menaçante devant Videl sans réelle raison (oui il a perdu ses gosses, ça change rien car Videl parle avec les mêmes motivations que lui et ça devrait le tempérer un minimum, assez pour pas avoir l'air d'être sur le point de massacrer une humaine). Mais c'est justifié du point de vue de Bra qui "défend juste sa tantine du mec bizarre en face qui lui rappelle le grand méchant Vegeto agrougrouuuu" (j'ai pas trop de mal à imaginer que la critique du Vegeta retombera sur Vegeto, y a déjà des commentaires qui disent que Vegeto tient son supposé mauvais caractère de Vegeta -plutôt que des choix scénaristiques).

La question est : est-ce que "justifié" justifie ça comme choix ? Peut-être pas. Parce que même si on faisait semblant que l'action de Vegeta faisait sens (et donc que l'interaction entière était raisonnable), raisonnable != satisfaisant ou propice à une bonne histoire. J'ai pas envie de voir Bra tenir en laisse les personnages legacy qu'on aime et qui ont fait la fondation de l'univers Dragon Ball. Elle sort de son génocide majin, du plot shield généralisé et les réactions que ça a entraîné, c'est le moment qu'elle soit agréable en fait. A mon sens, hein.

D'ailleurs Bra tire déjà la tête d'un serial killer en case 2. Je sais pas pourquoi ça fait ces choix. Ca la rend pas badass je trouve.

J'aime pas cette écriture. C'est pas du Goku DBZ. Le maximum de Goku DBZ c'est ça





C'est DBM only cette blague de "Goku dit des bêtises, tout le monde est exaspéré".

This comedy works with 12 year old Goku not grandpa Goku. This is just jarring.

Also Goku looks weird in that last panel. Asura does a good job drawing him with enough muscle but his face just looks too weird.

I wish we'd never hear about Buu again. He's been so obnoxious in every single appearance, even when it's his Windows Waifu speaking instead of him.

This chapter is a really nice breath of fresh air. Slower pacing and reflection are great even if some would want instant payoffs, it's not always possible or wise. Besides, each page has a nice little animation idea to deliver some of that precious dopamine.

So yeah good job on the storyboards and execution, it's pretty cool. I'm not a fan of Uub becoming a wizard (DB really doesn't go that path for good reasons) but if it had to be done then this is a good way.

Le boule qui chamboule hein

Why did he refuse to kill XXI for old Kaioshin and chose to eat XXI's hell senzu instead? 3 Replie(s)

They're really good though. Definitely a highlight of the story and I like how dynamic they were. I kind of wish they were there from the start but I guess the idea came up later?

They'd never react like that in a work that is in line with DB tone though.
Remember how they reacted to Gohan's "death" in the Buu arc? Or how Trunks' death was taken in the Cell arc, even though they could revive him? Death still holds weight even when they have a button to undo it, especially when it's Goku, the symbol of hope, protagonist and heart of Dragon Ball.


Could be a matter of priority and tonal shift. I dont think many readers feel like these jokes make sense to have right now, or have a chance of landing.
Of course you could also speculate it's all on purpose and meant to highlight how uncanny the situation is and it shouldn't go like that, normally.... But that sounds weird given this isn't the first time DBM has given Goku the boot, so no big hopes on that either.

Lol, Goku doesn't even get a panel showing him being revived after being killed in the final fight. I guess these spectators were more important.

I'm perfectly fine with "talking is a free action", generally speaking. Not much when the characters and the plot make a point that they're facing OHKO guys with very clearly established powers.
Goku had to act instantly to escape the time dimension. He didn't really do that while coming out. It looks stupid.
I'd be way more forgiving if the dialogue we got as a result was good. Except not, it was just empty cliche "now he's finished! dies" theatrics.
The fight would look at lot less stupid if Goku was already leaping at XXI while coming out of the time dimension and got hit then, mid swing.


I don't know about the comments, but I would have enjoyed an actual good fight CONSIDERABLY more. Not even close. Weird application of powers (which you could write ways to rationalize, anyway) doesn't even register compared to telling the story, showing the struggle, the emotions, the buildup, the glory and the tears.


Not really. Goku did everything he could to kill Vegeta (Nappa wasn't a threat) and Freeza (look at that Kaioken x20 rush and Genkidama). Goku was a killing machine against Cell and took the best possible actions to kill him ASAP. He did the best he could against Buu (don't bring up the Gohan absorption, it works differently). If he knows XXI instaKOs, he wouldn't just sit around. He's the fighting genius way more than Vegeta.

Basic storytelling (drama, emotions, buildup, payoffs...) seems to go well over the heads of the writers. Notice how even Goku's DEATH gets.... Not much fanfare. It's not that big of an event. We have Goten's almost comedic line at the end of the page, and we're discussing technicalities here "wow, OC has the super special technique of OC2? Man, think of the implications on my power system!".

Notice how a good part of the positive comments are about the power system, magic being strong, how XXI was sure to win from a mechanical superpowers perspective. This, or the supposedly good quality of a subversion. That's because there's nothing else, no attempt at making a work that emotionally resonates with its readers.

I suspect writing for a webcomic plays a big part in this, a mangaka articulates his language naturally through art and paneling in chapter chunks, even volumes, before thinking about instant feedback.


There's also that. People above have brought up other "talking is a free action" moments. But... This is a character that we know for instant OHKOs and Goku himself said "yeah, I'm ready for the OHKO". Why would you ever add the talking part? It's actively making this scene worse AND takes more pages.


Not really. This is a non canon fanfiction. The image of Goku hasn't been tainted because Salagir doesn't have any authority on him. The criticism lies more within the lines of "how in the world did they think this was good storytelling?".

Hey, I'll give this one good point though: Goten cheering for his dad is nice. He has a good EoZ inspired design, he had a neat cooking scene with Goku last time too. I guess Goten is okay? 1 Replie(s)

I guess "it makes sense" and "it's only trying to be realistic!" have their limits huh? Too bad they made something unrealistic for the purpose of the most predictable cliche "looks like you're out of tricks! dies" line.
People would still have very good reasons to be angry but less people would be annoyed if they didn't make Goku say the jobber flag line.


Wouldn't put it past Salagir. If it's subversive, it's good and if people complain it just adds to the hate Genkidama from that comic.

There's probably a nice middle ground between, say, GT "Goku Time", and DBM "maybe you'll get a third fight after page 3000".

Notice how Toriyama put Goku and Vegeta in round 1 and focused the fights on the intrigue building up, it was obvious something was going to break it. Did anyone expect a Goku/Vegeta vs Gohan finale?


Not really. We're also talking about aesthetics and visuals. All the characters are named after food. I think what you failed to grasp is that while "Z" got "serious" with stakes of life and death, it never dropped its light heartedness and its simplicity. Freeza kills children and entire villages? Well, we don't have time to despair for too long, a few chapters later and you know Goku's coming here and training very hard, hope is back! Similarly, the heroes not killing or imprisoning Gero doesn't prompt some ethics debate. It's quickly mentioned, but that's it.

Hell, they let Vegeta chill at Capsule Corp. The entire reasoning is that funny panel where Bulma says he better not try to touch her and he blushes. It's all a joke. It wouldn't fly in a realistic world, and that's fine because it's not trying to be one.


If you ever expected powerscaling to be a hard science then the very first "Z" arc proves you wrong, pretty badly, with the Earthlings speedrunning their way to Raditz. As for intelligence, I wont elaborate more, but it's ballsy to say that while reading a comic where Vegeto is dumber than a toddler.


Who does, though? Goku is perfectly smart and creative as it is. In fact, he is a genius, praised for his skills and plans, many times. In every major arc you could probably find a few really crafty and impressive moments he pulled. 1 Replie(s)

DBM is able to do that. They ignored logic enough to let the Gohan team put up a fight against Bra even though she should have given them the "one tap- head explodes" treatment given their powerlevels.
It just wont do that when it matters, sadly.


And I think you're doing the opposite, vastly overestimating it in Z and underestimating it in DBM (as someone said above, Vegeto eating a senzu bean from hell and the infuriating Baba scene). Especially if you count stuff like "Frieza torturing his preys and enjoying himself, like he said he would, after losing his dream" or "Goku and Vegeta not wanting to fuse to finish Buu because of pride and earnest will to challenge themselves". These are deliberate and meaningful characters traits.
Honestly, other than some Cell blunders, all you're left with is the occasional "why don't we get oneshots where Stronger Fighter just explodes Weaker Fighter's head since he's 5-10 times stronger like DBM often does?" (and the answer is kind of obvious). Almost meaningless really.
But yeah, let's not expand on this subject.


And they do. They absolutely do. The rules are pretty clear and obvious. This is a more comedic kind of story. People forget about the kid that defeated Piccolo because the world isn't that serious. Goku drops rabbits on the moon. Bulma is led to believe boys have tails at the age of 16.

Think about it for a moment, even looking at the designs it's incredibly stylized and out of this world. The God of the entire galaxy spends his time driving in a circle and our hero spent 40 days trying to catch his monkey. Gohan just naturally explains to the reader Krillin let his hair grow, without it feeling out of place or too 4th wall breaking, showing this relaxed and casual type of storytelling. There are obvious Japanese mythological inspirations you can't ignore when trying to understand what you're reading.
My point is simple, if all you can bring to the table is your real life common sense, then you refused engaging with Dragon Ball on its own terms. You stripped away its tone, its authorial intent, some of its themes and inspirations, and tried to fit a square into a round hole.


Then you'll probably enjoy DBM more, unsurprisingly, as it shares this almost surgical, cold vision of storytelling. Most people feel very differently about Dragon Ball, as evidenced by these reactions to Goku's loss.
Dragon Ball is a funny and hot blooded shonen where people do martial arts that make children (the target audience) dream. It's meant to make you pumped up, to be full of exciting battles and show the self-improvement journey of lovable characters. Goku has become a symbol both in and out universe, a symbol of hope, growth, strength, and generally just a good-natured, casual sense of adventure. That's why he was the Tokyo Olympics Ambassador. When you treat Goku like garbage, you also undermine these themes, which are core to Dragon Ball as a whole. All you're left with is some shallow "worldbuilding" leftover from a few manga arcs Toriyama wrote, like it's some kind of space opera, all the pieces but none of the purpose. You've stripped all of the meaning away, and now what you have is basically akin to a tabletop RPG with all the characters and their powers but nothing more. 1 Replie(s)

I think this is more of a "you" issue than a Dragon Ball issue. The characters make a few blunders in the Cell arc but generally speaking not that much, and the few "stupid" moments are just because things just aren't that serious. You said below that you don't care for conventional storytelling, but you're the one trying to apply realism and real life common sense to a story that never tried to stick with it, not even close. Dragon Ball has always been that kind of "higher level" world.
Best example to understand that is Gohan. DBM likes to go with the PTSD Gohan way since realistically that's what a 5 year old would feel after what happened to him. Dragon Ball never did that. It wasn't the point. People even forgot about the kid who saved the RR army, and they believe Satan killed Cell.
Basically, it's not that serious. You're reading the wrong story if you wish it was. And you're probably writing the wrong manga if you write one for something you dislike.


Conventional plot structures exist for a reason. It's perfectly fine to subvert them, when you can deliver something better instead. In this case, it would have been possible to handle this fight in many ways that would deliver all the good of traditional plot structures while still delivering the same value at the end, OR, the opposite, maximize the subversion and do it in a better way than what we had. I'll just say, subverting for the sake of subversion is a pretty big red flag generally speaking, and something the DBM writing falls into way too often, possibly due to the webcomic format incentivizing twists and swerves at every page to keep the reader interested, no matter how clunky it gets once you read the entire thing.


Does it, though?
I'm pretty sure every fight involving Bra and Buu is problematic powerwise, like "different orders of magnitude separate the two contestants but there's no oneshot and the story pretends it's an actual fight".
Buu himself being that strong makes no sense in the first place, he multiplied his powerlevel by thousands in 20 years despite having nothing worth absorbing compared to Goku & friends.
I also remember tons of stupid choices. Let me say that the Baba stuff from the latest Gohan-Androids special is singlehandedly the most stupid, and infuriating decision ever made by a Dragon Ball character, in any Dragon Ball media. 2 Replie(s)

I would have agreed with you if not for that almost comedic "he didn't that any risks, grr!" speech bubble at the end that kind of trivializes what happened by focusing on the technical aspects of the move rather than the fact THE Goku died. As things are, this is just another infodump.

Also, it feels incredibly fitting that the Multiverse (magic) tournament ends with an OC straight up murdering the heart of Dragon Ball by using the non martial arts spell of another OC retconned to be overpowered even though he was written as a joke. It really says something.


What was that about? Also you can head out to the DBM English forum linked below. 2 Replie(s)

Lol, the disrespect. I expected no less :^) 1 Replie(s)

By the way, there was a really good way to make it actually work.

1. No Time Dimension shit. Just have it happen the second Goku's feet touch the ground.

2. Make it extra cheeky and have the fight start in the previous chapter, the prizes one. Make it happen at the end of the chapter, to leave on a twist.
There you go! You didn't have to make this nice (stupid) troll cover that tries to sell you Goku as cool before shitting on him.

Ce que je veux dire c'est que c'est plus réaliste d'imaginer qu'il serait mort que d'imaginer cette évolution.
6 mois dans la nature hostile ça l'a juste fait grandir, l'entraînement avec Piccolo pareil.

Faut déjà se creuser un peu la tête pour imaginer Gohan qui va tuer des innocents pour survivre, mais pour imaginer Gohan qui va aller massacrer les terriens pour ça sur le compte de ses kidnappeurs qui ont tué son père, c'est encore plus improbable. Et si c'est le cas bah la tête de sa mère devrait pas y changer quoi que ce soit.

Avoir 5 ans ne l'a pas empêché d'aller faire du combat à mort sur Terre et Namek donc c'est pas comme si cet argument d'âge pouvait être appliqué si facilement. Un 5 ans dans Dragon Ball est pas pareil qu'un 5 ans chez nous.
Après c'est un peu le pitch de base de l'histoire donc ça se défend sur cette perspective on peut l'accepter plus facilement comme ça ... mais ça fait quand même bizarre de le voir participer à la team génocide de sa propre planète comme ça, éducation ou pas. 2 Replie(s)

La queue de poisson c'est de n'avoir fait aucun combat. XXI aurait pu gagner autrement après un long combat et avoir été poussé à ses limites. Goku ne va pas le battre d'ailleurs ça j'en doute fort lol, le fait qu'il soit arrivé en finale c'est censé être ce qui te satisfait en tant que fan de Goku et U18. 1 Replie(s)

I wish, but sadly it's just the glitch font that comes up before the final page is uploaded.



Yep, that's the obvious implication here. That's what should have happened, at least following basic media literacy.

Wait, so.... XXI used a few OHK so that means every single XXI fight must be one? Does that mean the Gast fight isn't fine because it changed the rule? And now we're back to the old rule again? Are we supposed to think it's good because it's expected and then good when it's breaking the expectations? What even is this kind of argument? Why pretend XXI was threatened by Goku with previous dialogues if that's not going to be the case? Why pretend this was going to be a good fight with that cover referencing actually good fights?

This is the final fight, why should it be the same as XXI turning off 18 with a remote?


"This story doesn't deliver satisfying beats but it's fine because the superpowers I made up explain why that happened and why the bad guys OHK everyone, do you like it now?" is never a good argument.

You write the story and superpowers you want. You make it so that things are satisfying and interesting. Not the other way around, you're not a slave to XXI's superpowers, you don't even have to give him time stop.

These situations have nothing similar, and that should be obvious.

This has a chapter cover alluding to all of Goku's previous budokai tournaments. This is invoking strong feelings, strong connections to powerful climaxes. It delivered the exact opposite.

Piccolo Daimao almost killing Goku was a big part of a dramatic process, and it took some time. It was brutal and made the reader feel scared. It wasn't a 3 pages gag.
Taopaipai was the "challenger" meant to stop Goku. And he did so, at the beginning of the arc, when nobody expected anything else but that.

You can't just dodge your way out of "we didn't deliver in the climax" by promising yet more unconventional climaxes when it seems even conventional ones can't stick the landing.

I do not believe the way this fight was written delivers anything other than cheap shock value, which at this point is so overplayed that it doesn't hit anymore. Everyone here knew the writers could do something like that, they just wanted to believe the writers wouldn't.

But hey, look on the bright side! We get to discuss time powers, and dimension powers, and teleportation, and dark dimensions! And super regeneration, and .... I guess martial arts will have to wait.