Kururun disait : Absolument ridicule. J'avais rien envie de dire sur les dessins pour ne pas tirer sur un amateur, mais y a pas besoin d'être mangaka au Shonen Jump pour se comporter un peu + pro, ou plutôt, un peu + adulte. Chier sur son lectorat n'est pas et ne sera jamais une stratégie légitime, ou gagnante, et ce malgré les quelques qui viendront défendre le move en disant "huuuuh ça en a trigger certains!!!". Il s'agirait de grandir.

Ça en a trigger certains...dont toi apparemment. Il s'agirait de garantir comme tu dis si joliment

Agreed with iron leaf. Pan remote controlling #28 is great, and I also like Thorn as a character, but him out-tech-geniusing Bulma is not what I'd call a good plot idea. Surely both characters can have their own niche without overshadowing one another.

It makes plenty of sense for Thorn to be this good. I mean like a thorn in the side, a constant pain for everyone. He comes from a civilization that gathers knowledge from nearly everyone. He's more capable in known theories and tech than in innovation and creation which are Bulma's domain. He also wasn't on Earth long enough to properly learn their languages and styles, so he would have to have been able to find familiarity in what's there and take advantage of known vulnerabilities and weaknesses of the system types. It makes sense.

Imagine being well versed in cybersecurity today, but going back in time 30 years. You'll know a lot of advanced concepts and things that can help beat folk in the past, but you're not necessarily capable of truly innovating during their time beyond what you already learned.

Kururun disait : c'est aussi la fanfic qui parle de "gravité relative" pendant une page pour expliquer pourquoi Broly est pas en train de s'éloignerAlors va falloir relire la Page 232 parce que tu as tout faux là. xD

deedlit disait : Donc les ordis de sa planète fonctionnent pareil que ceux de la Terre ?

Les concepts de base de l'informatique doivent être les mêmes. Tout comme l'invention de la roue avant les vaisseaux spatiaux est commun à tous les peuples quelquesoit la planète.

goku lost more tenkaichi budokais than he won.

Kururun was saying: iron leaf was saying: Kururun was saying: ...Videl is not 10 years old.

Still pretty much the same. Teenager is better than a kid in this situation, sure, but really not by much. No reason for her out of all these reasonably experienced and strong fighters to be the one who gets chosen, both by Thorn and Krillin (to train her). Like, sure, you could somewhat imagine her getting to 23rd Budokai Chichi level or something if she trained with all her might under Krillin and learned Ki, but then there's really no reason why it'd be her and her specifically. All these stronger and more experienced warriors would have gotten better gains in these circumstances.
Like always I'll give this story the benefit of the doubt instead of judging it. Maybe Videl had a bigger drive than all of these other fighters. She ended up getting stronger than her father in U18 despite having no reason to do so

Because this U7 Videl is DBM Videl, not DBS Videl.

U9 Videl killed a majinized Cell Jr., which is proof that U9 Videl is stronger than U18 Semi-Perfect Cell. Thus U7 Videl has the potential to surpass U18 Semi-Perfect Cell.

Several of the other DB series give to female characters the "being a non-retired active female fighter and being married are mutually exclusive" sexist treatment.

Dragon Ball franchise has several alien races with technology and science that is more advanced than the Brief family's technology and science.

Kururun was saying: ...Videl is not 10 years old.

Going to Namek is like going on another DB search trip. She didn't need to be there. Krillin and Gohan would've been enough. Do you think she would even manage to do anything on her own if she didn't want to take Krillin as her "bodyguard", let alone survive? That's obviously IF Freeza or anyone else didn't show up. Guru gave Gohan and Krillin his Dragon Ball because he read their minds and knew they're good. Bulma is more selfish than good.

Future Bulma is a whole different character than her counterpart we know. Of course she would change. She lost literally everything, unlike this DBM special's Bulma who just lives under Gero's occupation not two maniacal teenagers who kill everyone on sight and have fun with it.

Kururun was saying: عمار was saying: Kururun was saying: Bulma was originally written as a selfish city girl for the Pilaf arc because it made for a more interesting MC duo (naive pure martial arts boy, self interested sophisticated city teenage girl). They bounced off each other better. Once the arc ended, Bulma's selfishness barely ever came into play and she was consistently written as a good person (while still somewhat retaining her "city girl" edge but far less relevant). She did nothing but support and help her buddies, and she's arguably the Dragon Ball heroine.



All what see was in the Red Ribbon army arc. Bulma did care about her friends and helped them a lot. But she's definitely not this "selfless heroine" you making her out to be. She's as selfish as she can get and when the situation gets very ugly, she will put her life before anyone else. All these negative treats stayed with her for a long time throughout the show.

Delphince and Myetic Zander weren't exaggerating with their description on OG Bulma. This is who she was.

Not wanting to get buried alive in a cave doesn't make someone selfish though. Doesn't make her selfless either, obviously. My words were "arguably the DB heroine", in the sense that she kickstarted everything that made Dragon Ball the way it was. My point is that what people used to call her "a bad person at best, who should be locked up at worst" are merely basic human traits of not wanting to fight a world class army or stay in the collapsing cave (especially when they have, well, Dragon Balls, and know their friend is super powerful and might survive this unlike the powerless teenage girl). Human traits, and, well, traits that fit a somewhat spoiled (but still romantic and idealistic) girl: wouldn't call these bad people in real life either.

So, yeah. Dragon Ball heroine makes sense to me. Not superheroine, but a generally good person who stepped up when push came to shove. She deserves more credit than she gets here for Namek and the time machine. I'd agree she acts less heroic than Goku overall.

I am yet to see even one example of Bulma "stepping up". Just because she's useful to her friends does not mean she's a "heroine" or that she's "stepping up". More often than not, it's her selfishness that keeps her going - at least in DB and DBS, I can't recall an example from Z (however she was not innocent during this period too, by endangering lives during Z and was kind of a hinderance during Android Saga (fight with Gero) and Buu Saga (using Shenron before Buu was dealt with))

Kururun was saying: Bulma was originally written as a selfish city girl for the Pilaf arc because it made for a more interesting MC duo (naive pure martial arts boy, self interested sophisticated city teenage girl). They bounced off each other better. Once the arc ended, Bulma's selfishness barely ever came into play and she was consistently written as a good person (while still somewhat retaining her "city girl" edge but far less relevant). She did nothing but support and help her buddies, and she's arguably the Dragon Ball heroine.



All what see was in the Red Ribbon army arc. Bulma did care about her friends and helped them a lot. But she's definitely not this "selfless heroine" you making her out to be. She's as selfish as she can get and when the situation gets very ugly, she will put her life before anyone else. All these negative treats stayed with her for a long time throughout the show.

Delphince and Myetic Zander weren't exaggerating with their description on OG Bulma. This is who she was.

MultiKoopa was saying: Is... Is this a media literacy problem? Do I have to start sounding like a pretentious asshat to tackle the issue here?
Ehh...no? On the contrary, I would prefer if you do not act kind of condescending here, like you are definitely doing lately (again). You already have 2 official warnings, by two different moderators... just saiyan.

Right because someone else with their own artstyle certainly wouldn't depict a humorous moment differently than Toriyama. This isn't even counting all the goofy shit that was in both versions of the Goku Black arc of Super. No, yeah, certainly out of character.

Ah gotcha. So moments of significance only need to be serious when YOU see fit. When they support your views on the narrative. Your complaints now make a lot more sense.

Also he’s right in saying Bulma wasn’t a good person. She may have changed in Z but he just described her og dragon ball personality to a perfect T. The entire first arc of DB is Bulma using the same child she attempted to kill (yes I realize he flipped her car. Doesn’t change the fact that she had no hesitation in unloading rounds into what looked like a damn near toddler) as a meat shield while she hunted for a Bf. Then she tried to offer him sexual favors despite, again, looking way younger than the average human of his own age.
You’re views on a ‘bad person’ are twisted if she’s anything but.
Bulma is AT BEST incredibly selfish…and a worst? She deserves to be locked up.

Ah yes, because Future Bulma, Future Gohan, and Future Trunks never joked around. Nope, these characters should just be depressed 24/7

Bulma honestly ISN'T a good person. Her degree of selfishness pushes her right up to the edge of being a villain, and her goals have just never directly clashed with the well-being of the world. Capsule Corp brings her inventions to the people, but her motivation is wealth rather than altruism. Time and again, when she's had the opportunity to help herself OR society, she chooses herself, every time. Trunks' dark future has shown that when the chips are down, she can be broken to show a good person inside, but the same could be said for Vegeta's character development.

"The world is my responsibility. I'll protect us from this threat."

With this line and Thorn saying he needs to hear both sides of the story, it almost seems like they're trying to show us Gero has some sort of integrity and not entirely evil. But seeing that if aliens invaded and eventually conquered Earth, Gero and Red Ribbon would no longer dominate the world, I can't see Gero's intentions as noble. It's just the same selfish reason Piccolo joined forces with Goku against Raditz, Nappa and Vegeta - if he doesn't stop the aliens, he can no longer dominate the world.

Kururun disait : Je n'appellerais pas ce qu'il vient de faire (dire aux membres de la résistance opprimés et massacrés par les androïdes tueurs que ce sont peut-être eux qui sont en tort) de la diplomatie lol

On peut envisager la notion de diplomatie sans forcément d'hypocrisie. La diplomatie dicte qu'on entre pas en guerre sans savoir la réalité de qui fait quoi. On peut essayer de faire des ronds de jambes qui essaient d'impliquer que tout ça c'est la faute mécanique de cette méchante diplomatie. Ou on peut dire franchement qu'on est arrivé sur la planète il y a une heure et que quand on nous parle ça peut être pour nous dire des mensonges, ça s'est vu ailleurs.

N'oublions pas que le gamin vient d'une assemblée de sages, les Alcméniens, qui accumulent le savoir de tout l'univers et passent des accords avec les mondes avoisinants pour préserver Icarion des envahisseurs. Pas étonnant que Thorn soit empreint de diplomatie en venant d'un monde pareil.

Kururun was saying: Damian Qualshy was saying: Kururun was saying: Damian Qualshy was saying: Kururun was saying: This was good so far but I hate this page. Not because we have a group of underdogs who shouldn't be able to fight any of the androids, powerlevels don't matter and will be discarded at any time if needed, whether it's Dragon Ball, Super or Multiverse. We've seen that happen many times.

No, I hate Thorn intellectualizing something that really shouldn't be. You're not writing some ambiguous universe with tons of morally grey factions and goals. You're writing a Dragon Ball sequel. General Red wanted to conquer the world and get taller, it's that simple, it's that goofy. No bullshit added. I can squint my eyes and accept the idea of Gast having a "diplomat" companion who does some of the thinking, but not when it comes to the forefront of such an obviously black and white situation. No Thorn, you're not the guy you think you are. This scene is stupid.

I'm sure you can try to explain why he'd still react like that after being attacked by one of these androids and seeing Gast almost die to them, even when one of Gast's good friends is explaining they're bad news and asking for Gast's help. I'm sure you can tweak things enough to defend Thorn being a dumb piece of shit here. The question is, why would you? Why should he act like that in the first place? Just to highlight this fetish for morally grey space wars? General Red just wanted to get taller, man. And that was good.

Explain to me what was goofy about King Piccolo Saga, Saiyan Saga, Namek Saga, Android/Cell Saga and half of Buu Saga because I think I might've missed it.

Like, what does Red have to do with anything here?

Red, as in the Red Ribbon, has everything to do with how this arc started. I know Gero isn't Red, but it still feels incredibly contrived to shoehorn in this attempt at moral ambiguity/"but both sides??" in a situation that is so clearly and obviously black and white.

Hell, I'd have accepted it if Thorn and Gast didn't almost get killed by these guys 5 minutes ago AND if Krillin wasn't a good friend of Gast. Then, and only then, you would have a seemingly ambiguous situation where MAYBE the killer androids aren't so bad and it's actually the plucky resistance underdogs who wanted to do bad things. (I'm being charitable here).

But when you consider the points I mentioned above then it's very obvious the situation is forcing its way into pretending to be ambiguous when it's absolutely not, because the writers really love the concept of it in general but didn't think enough about implementing it correctly.

I love the comedy on this page by the way. It's a really nice callback to minor manga characters, powerlevels nitpicking aside it feels appropriate to see these guys here.... But then the page shifts towards this serious "muh morally gray space wars" idea and the tone clashes with the comedy.

Still a good chapter so far and I really enjoy what they did with Gast (hell, I think all the Gast chapters are at least good, sometimes OUTSTANDING. Good job). Just pointing out my view on this one element, but I think it'll move somewhere else soon enough.

Except you didn't talk about Red Ribbon. You specifically mentioned General Red and his wish on the dragon balls, which has no relation to anything and especially not Gero.
The only reason RR is kind of important for Android Saga is because Goku destroyed a base and Gero's son died. That's it. The end.

Yes, Thorn's response is really out of place here, but you brought up one meaningless thing as an argument for "this shouldn't be a serious story" when Dragon Ball (and especially Z) is in fact a serious story at least 80% of the time.

It's not that this shouldn't be a serious story, it's that there shouldn't be any shoehorned attempt at moral ambiguity here. Red Ribbon is the evil army trying to conquer the world (and for a reason as silly as Red wanting to be taller). Gero is the evil scientist wanting revenge and world domination, making the killer bots. Cell is also very plainly evil, although there is a nice theme of him being a dark parallel/mix of the heroes, it's an underlying theme, much more subtle than Thorn pretending things are ambiguous to the resistance and Gast's friends.

I can't fault a story for being serious but I think sometimes DBM takes itself too seriously/is overindulgent in that. There's a nuance here. Freeza slaughtering children on Namek is as dark as most stories can get, but the way it's done for narrative and dramatic purposes rather than attempts at crafting some fancy worldbuilding makes it different.

Thorn has no clue about anyone and anything, of course he's going to be sceptical. It's not bad writing, it's realistic and works for the character.

Kururun was saying: Damian Qualshy was saying: Kururun was saying: This was good so far but I hate this page. Not because we have a group of underdogs who shouldn't be able to fight any of the androids, powerlevels don't matter and will be discarded at any time if needed, whether it's Dragon Ball, Super or Multiverse. We've seen that happen many times.

No, I hate Thorn intellectualizing something that really shouldn't be. You're not writing some ambiguous universe with tons of morally grey factions and goals. You're writing a Dragon Ball sequel. General Red wanted to conquer the world and get taller, it's that simple, it's that goofy. No bullshit added. I can squint my eyes and accept the idea of Gast having a "diplomat" companion who does some of the thinking, but not when it comes to the forefront of such an obviously black and white situation. No Thorn, you're not the guy you think you are. This scene is stupid.

I'm sure you can try to explain why he'd still react like that after being attacked by one of these androids and seeing Gast almost die to them, even when one of Gast's good friends is explaining they're bad news and asking for Gast's help. I'm sure you can tweak things enough to defend Thorn being a dumb piece of shit here. The question is, why would you? Why should he act like that in the first place? Just to highlight this fetish for morally grey space wars? General Red just wanted to get taller, man. And that was good.

Explain to me what was goofy about King Piccolo Saga, Saiyan Saga, Namek Saga, Android/Cell Saga and half of Buu Saga because I think I might've missed it.

Like, what does Red have to do with anything here?

Red, as in the Red Ribbon, has everything to do with how this arc started. I know Gero isn't Red, but it still feels incredibly contrived to shoehorn in this attempt at moral ambiguity/"but both sides??" in a situation that is so clearly and obviously black and white.

Hell, I'd have accepted it if Thorn and Gast didn't almost get killed by these guys 5 minutes ago AND if Krillin wasn't a good friend of Gast. Then, and only then, you would have a seemingly ambiguous situation where MAYBE the killer androids aren't so bad and it's actually the plucky resistance underdogs who wanted to do bad things. (I'm being charitable here).

But when you consider the points I mentioned above then it's very obvious the situation is forcing its way into pretending to be ambiguous when it's absolutely not, because the writers really love the concept of it in general but didn't think enough about implementing it correctly.

I love the comedy on this page by the way. It's a really nice callback to minor manga characters, powerlevels nitpicking aside it feels appropriate to see these guys here.... But then the page shifts towards this serious "muh morally gray space wars" idea and the tone clashes with the comedy.

Still a good chapter so far and I really enjoy what they did with Gast (hell, I think all the Gast chapters are at least good, sometimes OUTSTANDING. Good job). Just pointing out my view on this one element, but I think it'll move somewhere else soon enough.

Except you didn't talk about Red Ribbon. You specifically mentioned General Red and his wish on the dragon balls, which has no relation to anything and especially not Gero.
The only reason RR is kind of important for Android Saga is because Goku destroyed a base and Gero's son died. That's it. The end.

Yes, Thorn's response is really out of place here, but you brought up one meaningless thing as an argument for "this shouldn't be a serious story" when Dragon Ball (and especially Z) is in fact a serious story at least 80% of the time.

Kururun was saying: This was good so far but I hate this page. Not because we have a group of underdogs who shouldn't be able to fight any of the androids, powerlevels don't matter and will be discarded at any time if needed, whether it's Dragon Ball, Super or Multiverse. We've seen that happen many times.

No, I hate Thorn intellectualizing something that really shouldn't be. You're not writing some ambiguous universe with tons of morally grey factions and goals. You're writing a Dragon Ball sequel. General Red wanted to conquer the world and get taller, it's that simple, it's that goofy. No bullshit added. I can squint my eyes and accept the idea of Gast having a "diplomat" companion who does some of the thinking, but not when it comes to the forefront of such an obviously black and white situation. No Thorn, you're not the guy you think you are. This scene is stupid.

I'm sure you can try to explain why he'd still react like that after being attacked by one of these androids and seeing Gast almost die to them, even when one of Gast's good friends is explaining they're bad news and asking for Gast's help. I'm sure you can tweak things enough to defend Thorn being a dumb piece of shit here. The question is, why would you? Why should he act like that in the first place? Just to highlight this fetish for morally grey space wars? General Red just wanted to get taller, man. And that was good.

Explain to me what was goofy about King Piccolo Saga, Saiyan Saga, Namek Saga, Android/Cell Saga and half of Buu Saga because I think I might've missed it.

Like, what does Red have to do with anything here?

Kururun disait : "Il suffit d'aller 10 fois plus vite et d'envoyer une grosse attaque !"

J'aime pas ce style de dialogue. Comparons ça à Vegeta qui décrit que Goku va perdre contre Cell : "Cell a 1 ou 2 longueurs d'avance sur Kakarot". Figuratif. Pas littéral, pas numérisé, pas scientifique.
Si je te dis que tu as une lecture trop premier degré, je ne parle pas d'angle ou de température.
"aller dix fois plus vite" est une expression approximativement jamais utilisée littéralement.

Je ne comprends pas la haine que se prend Bra dés qu'elle ouvre la bouche... ou pas pour le coup ^^

" Sans rigoler
Je pratique le MMA depuis 7 ans et la boxe en parallèle depuis 6 ans, je pourrai.

Il suffit d'aller 10 fois plus vite et d'envoyer une grosse attaque, a la moindre erreur le Janemba est fini

T'auras toujours des puceaux d'ici pour penser que c'est impossible. Rien n'est impossible avec de la volonté déjà les amis
N'importe qui un minimum entraîné peut vaincre un Janemba avec un kikoha déjà. A main nue c'est pas forcément plus compliqué ça demande juste de la technique. "

Apart from that... If Vegeta was a good guy, why was he send to hell? Good guys don't go to hell.

Et oui Vegeto est au bout de sa vie actuellement. Il enchaîne défaite sur défaite, n'a plus rien à manger, est complètement vidé, n'a même pas pu profiter du tournoi après son combat contre Broly à cause d'un coup bas, et ca commence à se ressentir sur son attitude. Il est juste agressif avec tout le monde maintenant, même la personne qui lui a sauvé la vie 4 pages plus tôt.

And once again, I call on all people who have a problem with DBM Vegetto's portrayal to read the U16 Novel. You will get a much better understanding of how DBZ Vegetto was able to evolve into the DBM Vegetto we know.

However, I don't understand why the theory is always brought up that a fusion that does not defuse is supposed to portray the exact character traits that his fusion parts had for the rest of his entire life without any change whatsoever. Is that somewhere in canon that Vegetto in DBZ, theoretically speaking, if he had never split up, would have behaved like he did in the fight against Buu until the end of his life? Whether 1 day passes, a month, a year or a century, supposedly Vegetto is never supposed to change no matter what would have happened after Buu? Is this a fusion-exclusive thing? Because nobody wonders why Saiyan-Arc Vegeta doesn't behave like Saiyan-Arc Vegeta after years.

Why is it so extremely important that Vegetto of all people should always have the exact character traits we saw in his very last on-screen appearance in DBZ? No one complains (ever so loudly) that U4 Super Buu doesn't behave exactly like he did in his last appearance in DBZ, or U3 Bardock, or U8 Ginyu, or U13 Raditz.

WukongTheMighty was saying: DrewSaga was saying: WukongTheMighty was saying: Kururun was saying: This Vegeto bullshit isn't convincing. Guy got cut in half 10 pages ago and now he's talking like that?

Yeah no. Vegeto is written isn't written in a "what would this character do?" way, but rather "how can we push our agenda and pre established conclusions about him?"

It will never be convincing. You're setting him up as an asshole by turning him into the narrative punching bag. Not only is he not Vegeto (but a weird and silly interpretation of him), but you'll find that readers will root FOR HIM when he starts beating up everyone.

ANON was saying: And he's also a fusion of two people, both of them in their 40s to 50s. What people should be taking into consideration is he's a fusion of Goku, who is extremely childish and innonce, and Vegeta, who is hopelessly arrogrant. Those two traits are a dangerous mix.

Goku isn't childish actually. He's easily one of the most mature and composed characters in the manga. I don't think anyone would think Vegeto would become like that based on the actual manga, the numbers just don't add up.

Uhm, akshually, Bejita had been at most like an hour from his "Kakarot, you're number one!" Speech so Bejitto is made out of bad Vegeta.
Please disregard Vegeta's sacrifice being his turning point to full hero.
Fusion man bad.
Etc.

Wrong, Vegeta never fully became good until the fight with Goku vs Kid Buu. He held anger and resentment when Baba brought him to Earth before Goku fused with him. Vegeta was even gonna be condemned to hell. Vegeta changed only slightly after blowing himself up.

Absolutely insane headcanon.
Vegeta's "You're number 1" speech is an effect of him becoming good, not the cause.
He was already "good" by the time of him blowing himself up, that's the point.
He was annoyed at Goku for hiding 3 but didn't act up that much all considered. He was more than willing to give up existing entirely as an independent being to save his loved ones, too.
How evil.

No he wasn't. He was sure on the right path to become good, but at the point of Final Explosion he was not going to make it with Yemma and would be going to HFIL without a body. Or maybe Piccolo simply underestimated his actions, who knows.

And he's also a fusion of two people, both of them in their 40s to 50s. What people should be taking into consideration is he's a fusion of Goku, who is extremely childish and innonce, and Vegeta, who is hopelessly arrogrant. Those two traits are a dangerous mix.

Is that Mary Sue in the last panel?

Kururun disait : Non DB n'était pas bourré de références, elles étaient rares et surtout quasi jamais textuelles et directes comme ça. Elles s'intégraient à l'histoire plutôt que de la remplacer. Elles étaient aussi plus subtiles que "hxh reference" au coin de la case.

Rares ?

DB = Référence au voyage en occident
Goku = Référence a l'époque Sengoku « époque des provinces en guerre »
Les 7 boules de cristal sont une référence a Sun Wonkung qui entreprend un voyage en occident à la recherche d’écriture sacrée de Bouddha, et revient les présenter à l’empereur après quatorze ans de quête.

Déjà, juste dans le titre et la première page de Dragon Ball, il y a 3 références


Je ne les ferais pas toutes, mais il y en a partout, et elles sont tout, sauf rares :
Jacky Choun = Jacky Chan
Krilin = crâne rasé des moines bouddhistes
N°8 = Frankenstein
Sergent Metallic = Terminator
Suppaman = Superman
Général Red = Méchant de James Bond (SPECTRE)
Général blue = Officier Nazi
Homme Garou = Loup Garou
yajirobéé = jouet, petit pantin avec de longs bras en balancier
Yamcha = Nom qui provient du chinois Yum Cha. Il s'agit de petites bouchées (nems, beignets de crevettes, wontons, toasts crevettes/sésame...) prises à l'heure du thé.

Quand on assez de culture (ce n'est pas mon cas), on trouve des références a tout et a n'importe quoi, partout dans Dragon Ball, et surtout des références a la bouffe dans les noms des personnages !

(pour le reste je vais pas rentrer dans le débat point par point et référence par référence comme je l'ai dis ce serait trop HS juste... c'est pas un avis, c'est un fait, y a PLEIN de réf dans DB, si tu veux le nier frontalement c'est ton problème ma foi ^^)

En fait, il n'ont pas tort. Dragon Ball est littéralement bourré de référence. Star Wars en tête :

Quelques exemples qui me viennent en tête :
Star Wars : Le palais de Kami, c'est la cité des Nuages. Le module pour soigner les soldats de Freezer, est la même chose qui soigne Luke dans l'épisode 5 (cuve Bakta).

D'ailleurs, dans cette case, on voit plein de ref à Star wars :
https://i.imgur.com/FyBOsTY.png
L'épée de lumière de Vegeto qui est une ref au "light saber" des Jedi.
Les voitures volantes de la Capsule Corp qui sont des landspeeder.

Terminator : Le Sergent Metallique de la tour du Muscle, dans Dragon Ball est littéralement le T800. C16 est également calqué sur l'acteur de Terminator (et agit comme le T800, à vouloir tuer Goku).

Le retour dans le temps qui créer des temporalités alternatives est également le même principe que dans la saga Terminator. (Ca aurait pu fonctionner différemment comme la saga Retour vers le Futur).
Trunks a la coupe de cheveux du gamin de Terminator 2.

Et sinon en vrac :
Bubble, le singe de Kaio est une ref à Bubble de Michael Jackson.
La technique de l'homme saoul vient du film de Jackie Chan : Drunken Master. D'ailleurs Tortue Génial prend le nom de "Jackie Chun" pendant le tournoi quand il l'utilise :D

Is this a joke? All that buildup and seemingly killing Vegito for... a nothingburger?
This is too much.

La saga Freezer toute entière est une réf à Star Wars. Les Cyborgs c'est une réf à Terminator. Goku c'est un superman inversé, et Piccolo a littéralement la même origine story que superman.

Sérieusement, ce message m'a vraiment fait rire, bien sûr que si DB était très lié à la pop culture, bon sang, et regorgeait de liens à des sagas comme SW xD

Et j'suis pas sûr que juste dessiner les belles bagnoles qu'il aimait soit plus lié à l'histoire que de faire des couvertures-références xD

Cm
Kururun disait : Super, une référence à Star Wars... Ça manquait dans DBM il faut dire on en a jamais vu

Punaise, c'est triste d'être aussi aigri, franchement je comprends pas, tu me fais de la peine ^^"

Merci pour vos commentaires! Ça a été un chapitre très intéressant à faire, et qui à titre personnel m'a appris beaucoup de choses.
Comme cela a été pointé, il aurait en effet dû être placé avant celui d'IKL, c'était ce qui était prévu, mais il y a dû y avoir un problème logistique. En tout cas cela vous aura bien fait débattre, et c'est finalement aussi pour ça qu'on vient, pour discuter ensemble de cet univers qu'on aime bien!
J'espère vous refaire un chapitre un de ces jours, à plus!

Ouv was saying: > No reason to lie...?
DBM is non-profit.
The story will be the same no matter f it had 5000 or 500000000 readers.
The number of readers is irrelevant to what DBM is.
Of course, the Team is happy about having so many readers, but this is more of a reward than a motivation.

> Hold on a second, that's not quite true, is it? Are you really telling me that DBM would be as successful at getting Guest Artists (...)
The artist are the ones that contact Salagir to draw Special Chapters.
You would have to ask them why they want to draw for DBM.
But from the ones I met, it was always because they love DB and DBM and want to be a part of it. While the numbers of readers are a bonus, getting more visibility is usually not their main motivation :)

> if rather than there being 500,000 readers every month there were say 100,000? 50,000? 30,000? I'm extremely skeptical of this 500,000 figure, because NOTHING is that consistent over that long a period. Especially when the claim is that DBM reached the peak of its popularity and just stayed there for a decade straight.
That's what it is. What would you want me to tell you anything else that the truth ? :/

> But basically, what you're saying is that there is no real evidence as to the 500,000 figure other than Salagir announcing it.
The Core team are close friends for more that ten years, why wouldn't we trust him ???
I mean CLOSE friends !
So no, I won't bother Salagir with that because I have no objective reason to.

It's not like things would be different in the Team if the numbers were fluctuating.
And if they would, we would tell you, because that's what we do.
We always answers the readers when we can.

Like I do now. :)
All those words and you didn't end up saying a great deal to convince me as to anything. I will continue to refuse a statistical impossibility like something reaching its most popular point and stagnating there without ever losing or gaining any readers beyond that point, especially with the controversial chapters that DBM has had in the past ten years.
without actual evidence showing such, it's impossible for me to believe that 500,000 claim.

Parce que prendre des décisions débiles fait partie intégrante des scénarios de Dragon Ball, car sinon, il n'y aurait pas d'histoire

AberrantDesign was saying: Back to that Space Politics show though, imagine Cui trying to start a union without being noticed by anyone with a higher power level
I love these story concepts :) you can already feel the Toriyama humor oozing from them^^

Vegito1090 was saying: People above me seemed to just be taking the "bad air" argument at face value, not knowing the official reason for the Potara fusion not being permanent.
Oh yeah, we know that Bad Air was never outright confirmed and that it was finally addressed in Super, we were just discussing whether the fault lies on Toriyama that fan projects have to come up with their own explanation since he declined to actually explain it for years. "Bad Air" was specifically brought up to compare and contrast with the Kais having a Defusion technique. The point being illustrated was that even if DBM's version takes a bit of thinking to iron out the wrinkles with that version, it's still a million times better than "I guess Buu naturally undoes Potara fusion, but not Namekian or Metamoran fusion"

Honestly, this is the source material's fault that the DBM writers are having to clean up. They left the question of "Why did Vegito defuse?" unanswered all the way to the end of Z and into Super. "Potara can be undone by a Kai before it stabilizes" isn't a perfect answer, but Toriyama ignored it for years, the writers are trying their best to patch the holes here. It'd be nice if we could retroactively use the "Only permanent with a Kai" explanation, but they already used this as the explanation ages ago, it's done. I respect the mods for respecting the canon they established

I think at that point, the fusion must have already stabilized. Hard to say though since we don't have any official metrics for how long until the fusion is stable. We only know the upper bounds are around the duration of the Super Buu vs Vegito fight
As for why Elder Kai didn't defuse Vegito, I could've sworn he said it was sacrilegious to undo a Potara fusion when Kibito Kai went to get themself unfused with the Namekian Dragon Balls. He probably could've, but he didn't want to

CHIT❂X disait : C'est con, il était stylé Kakaditz...Heureusement qu'on a eu un chapitre lui étant dédié alors :D

They established way earlier in the story that Fusion can be undone by a Kai before it stabilizes, that's the DBM lore reason for why Vegito unfused. This is most likely just a dream sequence judging from the earlier pages anyway, the plot thread most likely isn't used up yet

Fusion is permanent, but can be broken at the beginning.

I'm a little confused why Bulma isn't hushing and comforting her son. Because it won't be a badass thing to do?

Kururun was saying: Michelrpg was saying: Regarding the "sense bulma's energy".. pretty sure nobody was ever THAT skilled that they can sense the energy of regular humans. But.. it was also never implied that they couldnt.

Goku did that during the Buu arc


CHI? Who translated that? I want to find it

DrewSaga was saying:
I do not recall Gohan achieving SSJ2 in that novel as oppose to him just being angry but if he did, boy is that dumb as bricks. Dumber actually. Goku was exhausted and beat Frieza with SSJ which means that SSJ2 Gohan would easily annihilate the Cyborgs, infinite stamina can't save them from overwhelming force like that (it sure didn't save the Cell Jrs who were much stronger, still got one-shotted). Plus it does make U12 Trunks look bad in a way. Like sure, he beat the Cyborgs in U12 with only SSJ instead of losing with SSJ2, but the fact is he couldn't get SSJ2 but Gohan did?
Future Gohan does achieve super saiyan 2, I'll post the passage and let others decide.

"No, Satan hadn't realised at the moment what had followed the irrevocable... His eyes recorded the scene the same way a camera without user would do the same... But what a scene!

An insane growl... Yet it wasn't the growl of the father to whom his child's life had been stolen... No!

That was the growl of the young man who lacked an arm!

Right after it, a blast, whose power was as sudden as it was fierce, blew the ex-champion's weight away, no matter how heavy he was.

When he got back on his feet to look up, he could see an intense golden light dancing around the fighter whose fury was now distorting his face. He kept yelling as lightning tore through the sky that suddenly was invaded by oppressive and incredibly dark clouds. The crackling of numerous electric will-o-the-wisps that were travelling all around his body was drowned out by the rumble of an apocalyptic thunderstorm as a strange wind threw dust and rubble of all size in every directions.

From the huge block of concrete behind which he was hiding, Satan saw with alarm the two machines were bracing themselves so that they could resist the impressive storm picked up by the incredible fit of rage of the young man in the orange suit.

Who was he? How could he have such power? To generate energy shot was something, but controlling the elements, commanding storms? Could a machine do such miracle?!

Some religions give this ability to their gods... But he obviously wasn't one. Not at all... Otherwise he'd have certainly been able to save his darling... He had prayed so hard, no divinity could have refused him this... Besides, what happened next proved that he was a being of flesh and bones.

For a moment that seemed to go on forever, the unknown boy screamed his rage together with thunders and lightnings.

Then he finally lowered his head. There was something completely frightening in his eyes when he took them back to the twins. The usual whistling of the strange golden aura that was surrounding him had to compete with the dull sound of huge drops that started to hammer on the devastated town.

The light of a formidable lightning blinded Satan for a second. When he could see again, he noticed that the three fighter had already hurled themselves again one another.

The one armed fighter's hits seemed to have renewed vigour. His attacks seemed to have an incredible rise of power, but, whenever he threw one of his opponent bite the dust that was turning into mud under the heavy rain that was now raging, the other one was immediately on him... Never giving him any respite!

But hope didn't last... The young fighter who already was exhausted due to a first tough fight seemed to be tiring really fast while the two other didn't seem to weaken in the least, in spite of the insanely strong blows they had taken. These two damned things never showed the mere hint of breathlessness or of tiredness... No, they could hit for hours without getting tired, without wincing, without failing... As soulless machines."

Regarding the "sense bulma's energy".. pretty sure nobody was ever THAT skilled that they can sense the energy of regular humans. But.. it was also never implied that they couldnt.

MysticVegito was saying: Good grief Gohan, just sense her energy and blitz around the city till you find her, you are light years faster than measly bikes and stealthy enough to avoid 18.

Btw, hoping to see future Videl or Mr. Satan in future chapter, im curious how they'll manage 18 being as unhinged as she is.

They appear in the novel adaptation of Gohan's last fight, where Videl dies in front of Gohan and he manages to unlock SSJ2 out of rage, but the exhaustation and accumulated damage cost him the fight even with the power-up. Mr Satan survives and in U14, after Trunks doesn't manage to come back from the past to stop the Androids in time, Mr. Satan throws himself with explosives in a suicide attempt to stop the Androids.

I wonder if they'll ever make a comic adaptation of either of these events, like with the other flashbacks in One Way (the Future version of Frieza's arrival on Earth and Gohan dealing with Badibi's forces).

Percylegllois disait : Limule disait : en cherchant leurs ki, gohan quand même
Elle a du ki Bulma ?

Tout le monde à un ki même si chez les humains normaux il est de 5 mais normalement Gohan doit percevoir le ki de Trunks qui est élevé malgré qu'il soit pas entraîné à moins de savoir comment cacher son ki

Non. Même avec un bon contexte, l'idée est stupide. Tortue génial est à la ramasse depuis Piccolo daimao. Et il n'a pas pu progresser. C'est tellement incohérent qu'il n'y a normalement même pas besoin d'expliquer à quel point c'est aberrant.

Et là, tout est largement plus cohérent par rapport au vrai dragon ball.

Pour la puissance de végéto et Buu, Buu ne semble pas avoir beaucoup power up en absorbant d'autres personnes après avoir gober vegeta et goku. En sachant qu'il était déjà surpuissant après avoir bouffer Gohan, il a bouffé 2 mecs légèrement moins fort que Gohan en plus. Donc oui il est fort de chez balèze, normal. Il a surtout dû progresser intellectuellement, artistiquement et peut-être en magie depuis. Quant à Vegeto, il est juste à la puissance qu'il avait face à Buu, si ce n'est légèrement plus. C'est à dire totalement invincible. Ridiculement surpuissant.

C'était juste une expression française pour dire qu'il faut être beaucoup plus fort pour échapper au sort de la métamorphose en bonbon (si c'était bien ça la référence à laquelle tu fais allusion)

Rien ne dit que Buu bat Vegetto ssj3 en puissance pur. Buu l'a juste eu par tactique jusqu'à l'épuiser de toutes ses forces grâce à ses pouvoirs magiques qui peut se dupliquer quasi à l'infini.

Incroyable, je n'aurais jamais pensé que quelqu'un pouvait utiliser DBShit en référence...

Comme disait Dagonet, "Ah, celle-là tout de même, je sais pas si je l’aurais tenté."

Goku et ses potes ont absolument pas amené la paix dans la galaxie juste en supprimant ses dirigeants... et quand bien meme ils l'auraient fait, Enma et Kaio n'ont que faire de la paix galactique ou universelle, tout n'est qu'une question d'équilibre. des dangers comme Buu qui détruisent massivement et aléatoirement, c'est pas bon pour l'équilibre cosmique. Enma et Kaio ne doivent rien à Goku et sa clique.

Les nameks, eux, seraient probablement très heureux de les aider, mais ils ignorent tout de ce qui se passe sur Terre, et c'est pas plus mal, leur artefacts magiques perturbent les lois universelles, autant qu'ils s'en servent le moins possible. Si la Terre ne voulait pas perdre encore une fois les siens, elle n'avait qu'à mieux protéger son namek expatrié. Namek, c'est pas le backup de la Terre. Foutez donc la paix à ce peuple pacifiste.

Same reason he didnt beat but in ssj3?

or that he is not with king kai?

or he run out of favors?

or kami having some shit to say about it in the other world?

King kai didnt intervine before on earth things.

he later intervined because it´s freezer and involved several planets.

But he didnt do anything through the androids and cell until goku went there and talked to him.

Contrairement à ce que beaucoup de monde dit depuis le début du chapitre, je ne vois pas bien en quoi le monde de Mirai Trunks ne serait pas plausible. Ça l'est, pleinement
Evidemment, on peut imaginer pleins de scénarios pour lesquels les cyborgs sont battus : Un où ce serait grâce à Végéta parti seul dans la salle de l'esprit et du temps, un autre par Piccolo fusionné, un autre par un Goku revenu momentanément du paradis ou n'importe qui ressucité par les dragon balls de Nameks que Gohan serait allé chercher, et j'en passe. Là il faut juste imaginer que rien ne marche et ce n'est pas très difficile

king kai had not talked to them for 3 years until goku teleported there. Goku is dead. The earth has no guardian. the means to contact the other world is non existing, unless he contacts them. But given he is the respinsible for a whole othe sector he is not paying attention to it.

And I get that, tho I do feel like this special's purpose is to show Gohan overcoming that mindset to become the Future Gohan that we see in the manga special

Friendly reminder that U12, U14 and U15 are currently relevant on DBM current arc because of I'K'L and the consequences of his actions.

How? In most DBM universes Gohan either quits, dies, becomes a jobber or any combination of those. Gohan is a quitter who hates fighting.

And ability that Gohan lost since he hit puberty on most Dragon Ball continuities

The Z fighters getting beat up by the Cell Juniors? Gohan still does not get angry.

It took Android 16 dying (and being unable to repair him with the Dragon Balls for some reason) for Gohan to finally bother to believe that the stakes were high enough for Gohan to bother to get angry.

Well, re: Gohan not having some sort of PTSD, his rage and the fact he doesn't like fighting point to that as a possibility. But he might just have shrugged it off. Either way it's not that DBZ doesn't have these things but that it doesn't choose to delve into them.

hecks was saying: Grash was saying:
Gohan got character assassinated as well.

1. Gohan did not give up after losing goku to raditz
2. Gohan did not give up after watching all the namekiens die
3. Gohan ALMOST gave up after losing goku to cell but still pulled through
4. Gohan DID NOT give up against super boo after all his friends and the whole earth got eaten

Gohan is not this much of a quitter, plain and simple. His saiyan pride would never let him become a nihilistic, emo high school student.

There is no legitimate reason for this to happen. Baba helped bring goku back for a day in Z and with grandpa gohan. Goku and gohan saving the galaxy from freeza deserves some more credibility than this. This kind of writing oozes depression and nihilism.
WukongTheMighty was saying:
— "I WANT TO DIE"han
I guess Gohan fucking hates his mom because I'm fairly certain that she's not dead here, at least going by the History of Trunks OVA. Also incredibly OOC for him to say anything like that at all, ever. Gohan doesn't get sad, he gets MAD.

I do not agree with these comments. Gohan at the end of the day is a kid who lost almost all of his family and friends (for good), whose life has now mutated into this insane killer cyborg apocalypse, and has had the slightest glimmer of hope ripped away from him by Baba. So of course he isn't thinking rationally here; who would? Also why can't he be both sad AND mad simultaneously? Emotions don't exist in a vacuum, especially under stress.

Hot take: moments like these are way more interesting than a lot of the original DBZ's character work. One of my biggest issues with the original DBZ story is the lack of this kind of deep introspection. Of course that isn't Toriyama's style and part of it is my personal taste in the media I consume. But I think that the writing has been such a constant and crucial aspect behind what has kept me coming back to DBM for this long - call it emo and nihilistic writing, but instances like this page are visceral and revealing, so emotionally raw and IMO deepens the reading experience altogether. This comic keeps surprising me and I love it.

I think you're exactly proving their points. This is a conflict between two different ideas on the purpose of this fancomic.

1. As a medium for the author's owns ideas, thereby exceeding the role of an hommage to the original series and transforming it into a vehicle of their personal literary ideas, philosophies and agenda.
2. As a faithful hommage to the original series.

Saying "this...is way more interesting than a lot of original DBZ..." corroborates the previous commentators' claim this fancomic and a sizable portion of its fanbase subscribe to the first ideology whereas purist Dragon Ball fans will most likely support the latter. Excesses on the parts of fan authors of the first camp are often what give their interpretations of characters OOC vibes, and I tend to agree with them in this case that the current Gohan is acting nothing like his canon counterpart would. There is of course nothing wrong with this as Salagir has artistic license, but on the other hand there is nothing wrong with pointing out that he is molding material from the original source to conform to his own ideas for the characters, and that the implicit claim that this "corrects" or "improves" the canon story is highly subjective and thus susceptible to dispute.

While Salagir is doing the best he can as an amateur, the point still stands that DBM has a lot of plot holes.

Je comprends pas trop où tu veux en venir. Baba c'est pas une gentille mamie. Elle organisait des duels en mettant en jeu sa capacité de divination juste pour son petit plaisir. Duels où le meurtre était autorisé au passage. Le passage où elle complimente Goku est juste une prédiction gratuite qu'elle a faite car Goku l'a marqué.

Le seul truc qu'elle a fait ici est de respecter les règles qui lui sont imposées. Les morts ne doivent pas interférer avec les vivants, sauf en cas d'extrême urgence pour l'univers (le cas Buu, où c'est Enma lui-même qui a pris l'initiative). Les règles s'appliquent à tout le monde, Goku y compris. Si Baba commence à faire le taxi entre le monde des morts et celui des vivants pour les potes, elle va juste se faire recaler par Enma et retirer ses privilèges.

I'll just point out that this Gohan doesn't want to "end his life and be done with it".
Gohan lives in a fiction were it's known and sure that heaven exists.
He currently lives in a world of dread which he can't stop. If he "dies", he'll just "travel" to a world of perfection with all his friends and family.

People act like King Kai gave a shit about anyone but Goku. He didn't. Literally the whole Z cast showed up on his planet and he barely gave two shits about them in the filler-filled anime. In the manga their sole purpose was to act as reader standins for King Kai referee dumping.

King Kai does not interfere unless Goku is directly involved. That's just a fact. Goku was dead for 7 years and King Kai never thought it was pertinent to let him speak or talk to his kid (Goten). He never once lets him check up on Gohan to ensure he's on top of his training. Goku is gone for nearly a decade and only gets in contact because of a tourny match.

Après dire que le futur est incohérent est un peu fort je trouve, il y a pas mal de "trous" qui peuvent être facilement bouchés comme vous l'avez fait. On peut aussi penser à d'autres circonstances : Goku qui meurt avant l'arrivée des cyborgs, Piccolo qui se fait tuer en premier donc plus de DB, Vegeta qui se fait tuer en SSJ bien avant que Gohan ne le débloque, etc. Avec un peu d'astuce on peut justifier pourquoi Gohan n'a pas progressé au-delà du Ssj de base : sans partenaires, il a galéré à l'atteindre et ne l'ait eu que sur le tard. Si personne ne lui dit pour la SET, il ne peut pas la connaitre et donc s'en servir. Ce qui impliquerait que Popo soit mort tôt aussi... bon ça fait beaucoup, beaucoup de conditions mais ça peut se justifier. Ou sinon c'est juste l'univers où Gohan a cassé un magasin de miroirs en passant sous une échelle, après avoir croisé un chat noir sur lequel il a reversé un pot de sel... XD

In the "present" timeline, a little training make half of the cast stronger by far than the cyborgs. I can't do much about that, except play the "hope" storyline.

Also, you can't compare Baba making little tournaments and implicating yourself in the destiny of a whole planet.

As you state, all these have impact when said people are alive again.
If Dragon Balls were used in "future" timeline, or after Bojack special, heroes would have been permitted to crush cyborgs and Bojack with their new heaven-acquired powers.

Anyway, you can't compare (and that's true for the 3 lasts points) being in the middle of a situation and being stranded alone for years on a world where genocide occurs daily.

I'd like to agree (like I said she does have a respect for people here and there plus she knows when shit is serious) but she has people fight deadly battles just to get their fortunes told. Fighting a Vampire, an Invisible Man (probably the least deadliest but still), a Mummy over a boiling pit and a demon who could make people's hearts explode which isn't even fighting at that point.

Still I will say one thing about this page, I don't see why Baba would taunt Gohan here. Maybe in a normal situation but Baba surely knows what Gohan is going through, I'd shut my mouth if I were her.

what right did that give Baba to beat people within an inch of their life and potentially get them killed

Kururun disait : Bon c'était pas Enma, mais Baba qui se fait saboter par l'écriture.

C'est pas ma Baba, aucun niveau de gymnastique mentale ne va justifier ça.
Baba avait raison , Goku a sauvé le monde, et il l'a sauvé plusieurs fois avant de mourir d'une crise cardiaque.
Contre Le ruban Rouge, contre Piccolo Daïmao et contre Freezer ...

Are you serious? Baba might not have been all bad, but she really was a bitch to a good number of people. This wouldn't be the first.

Saiyan "pride" is bullshit. Seriously, Vegeta had "Saiyan Pride" but whimpered like a bitch against Frieza (something Goku didn't do when Frieza had Goku beaten up, but Goku never boasted about Saiyan "pride" and neither did Gohan because it was all just vanity on Vegeta's part, nothing to do with genuine pride). And some good "Saiyan Pride" does the Saiyans when it usually ends in an ass beating that could have easily been avoided. "Saiyan pride" is probably why Gohan is where he is at now and why Vegeta is dead.

You know, I think the most insulting part is Baba taunting Gohan about all this. I mean what the fuck? He's the last hope of the entire human race surviving this and you're basically going "AY FUCK YOU KID, EAT SHIT LMAO" at him for wanting to save the Earth. It's completely uncalled for, she's acting like Emperor Pilaf would. Fuck, worse, even.

Les morts ne doivent pas interférer ?

Ben j'aurais bien aimé voir sa tronche quand le mort qu'elle a ramené fusionne avec un vivant pour créer l'être le plus puissant de l'univers...

This kind of writing oozes depression and nihilism.

The plot holes already existed in canon, I don't think DBM made that worse by trying to explain it.

This is beyond stupid.
1. Gohan has only ever been to one planet that starts with an N so even if Goku gets cut off he should still know the plan
2. Yemma is a clown if he cut this convo off. There is nothing in official Db source material that forbids such a conversation
3. Goku could still use king kai
4. Goku could just telepathically reach out to him himself like when he was talking to king kai against freeza
5. Goku could have told him about the time chamber
6. King Kai could have told him about the chamber
7. Gohan should have been getting zenkais

I hate the future timeline for so many reasons and I think trying to "elaborate on it" will probably make it worse.

Kururun disait : Ca satisfait qui cette scène exactement ?

Moi.