DB Multiverse

DeathToKakarot was saying:

Oh some people are really starting to dislike Bruce & Zarya? Oh, in that case, you should definitely not watch Asura's Twitch streams. He likes the duo quite a bit.

They're really good though. Definitely a highlight of the story and I like how dynamic they were. I kind of wish they were there from the start but I guess the idea came up later?

DB Multiverse page 2515

Kururun 11 7月

maswartz was saying:

While I do agree... this is DB, dying is literally just another day for these people.

They'd never react like that in a work that is in line with DB tone though.
Remember how they reacted to Gohan's "death" in the Buu arc? Or how Trunks' death was taken in the Cell arc, even though they could revive him? Death still holds weight even when they have a button to undo it, especially when it's Goku, the symbol of hope, protagonist and heart of Dragon Ball.

zero logic was saying:

But I could say is precisely the one page per -designated- day what could make it more questionable the choice of a gag over insightful reactions/interactions.

Could be a matter of priority and tonal shift. I dont think many readers feel like these jokes make sense to have right now, or have a chance of landing.
Of course you could also speculate it's all on purpose and meant to highlight how uncanny the situation is and it shouldn't go like that, normally.... But that sounds weird given this isn't the first time DBM has given Goku the boot, so no big hopes on that either.

DB Multiverse page 2515

Kururun 11 7月

Lol, Goku doesn't even get a panel showing him being revived after being killed in the final fight. I guess these spectators were more important.

DB Multiverse page 2515

Kururun 9 7月

With me, I care about them staying true to the characters. You can hate the manga/comic law of talking being able to be done instantly (especially with high speed characters), but it doesn't make it any less true. We all know if XXI has an option to go for an insta win, he will take it.

I'm perfectly fine with "talking is a free action", generally speaking. Not much when the characters and the plot make a point that they're facing OHKO guys with very clearly established powers.
Goku had to act instantly to escape the time dimension. He didn't really do that while coming out. It looks stupid.
I'd be way more forgiving if the dialogue we got as a result was good. Except not, it was just empty cliche "now he's finished! dies" theatrics.
The fight would look at lot less stupid if Goku was already leaping at XXI while coming out of the time dimension and got hit then, mid swing.

DeathToKakarot was saying:

Cuz let's not act like the comments wouldn't be flooded with "Well why didn't he start with that" if there was a long drawn out fight

I don't know about the comments, but I would have enjoyed an actual good fight CONSIDERABLY more. Not even close. Weird application of powers (which you could write ways to rationalize, anyway) doesn't even register compared to telling the story, showing the struggle, the emotions, the buildup, the glory and the tears.

DeathToKakarot was saying:

Vegeta is the one who takes the no nonsense approach and bum rushes them. Goku is the one who will run his mouth once he believes he has the upper hand

Not really. Goku did everything he could to kill Vegeta (Nappa wasn't a threat) and Freeza (look at that Kaioken x20 rush and Genkidama). Goku was a killing machine against Cell and took the best possible actions to kill him ASAP. He did the best he could against Buu (don't bring up the Gohan absorption, it works differently). If he knows XXI instaKOs, he wouldn't just sit around. He's the fighting genius way more than Vegeta.

Bird Mountain was saying:

Kururun 8 7月

pip25 was saying:

Is he for real...? He seriously doesn't understand the difference? Geez...

Basic storytelling (drama, emotions, buildup, payoffs...) seems to go well over the heads of the writers. Notice how even Goku's DEATH gets.... Not much fanfare. It's not that big of an event. We have Goten's almost comedic line at the end of the page, and we're discussing technicalities here "wow, OC has the super special technique of OC2? Man, think of the implications on my power system!".

Notice how a good part of the positive comments are about the power system, magic being strong, how XXI was sure to win from a mechanical superpowers perspective. This, or the supposedly good quality of a subversion. That's because there's nothing else, no attempt at making a work that emotionally resonates with its readers.

I suspect writing for a webcomic plays a big part in this, a mangaka articulates his language naturally through art and paneling in chapter chunks, even volumes, before thinking about instant feedback.

Stouty22 was saying:

This, like all of this.

I'm not mad Goku lost. I'm upset he lost in such a lame way, by being killed mid monologue during a fight with an enemy that he himself stated, "I know that with XXI, it can be over in an instant..."

There's also that. People above have brought up other "talking is a free action" moments. But... This is a character that we know for instant OHKOs and Goku himself said "yeah, I'm ready for the OHKO". Why would you ever add the talking part? It's actively making this scene worse AND takes more pages.

So don’t be afraid of the "hate." See it for what it is: misplaced love, grief for a lost ideal, a desperate wish to feel inspired again.

Not really. This is a non canon fanfiction. The image of Goku hasn't been tainted because Salagir doesn't have any authority on him. The criticism lies more within the lines of "how in the world did they think this was good storytelling?".

Hey, I'll give this one good point though: Goten cheering for his dad is nice. He has a good EoZ inspired design, he had a neat cooking scene with Goku last time too. I guess Goten is okay? 1 Replie(s)

Kururun 7 7月

PokeChess was saying:

Asura added that it’s theatrical

I guess "it makes sense" and "it's only trying to be realistic!" have their limits huh? Too bad they made something unrealistic for the purpose of the most predictable cliche "looks like you're out of tricks! dies" line.
People would still have very good reasons to be angry but less people would be annoyed if they didn't make Goku say the jobber flag line.

Mino was saying:

I think Kakarot is free game for that stuff because he’s immortal and technically he’s not Goku

Wouldn't put it past Salagir. If it's subversive, it's good and if people complain it just adds to the hate Genkidama from that comic.

Kururun 7 7月

I'm not trying to put DB characters on a pedestal. That's the worst thing you can do as a fan in my opinion.

There's probably a nice middle ground between, say, GT "Goku Time", and DBM "maybe you'll get a third fight after page 3000".

Kururun 7 7月

Eddboy was saying:

Honestly this is the most Toriyama thing to have ever happened in this comic. The tournament never mattered, it was just a vehicle to have fanfiction fights and it served its purpose. bravo Sal

Notice how Toriyama put Goku and Vegeta in round 1 and focused the fights on the intrigue building up, it was obvious something was going to break it. Did anyone expect a Goku/Vegeta vs Gohan finale?

highly peripheral

Not really. We're also talking about aesthetics and visuals. All the characters are named after food. I think what you failed to grasp is that while "Z" got "serious" with stakes of life and death, it never dropped its light heartedness and its simplicity. Freeza kills children and entire villages? Well, we don't have time to despair for too long, a few chapters later and you know Goku's coming here and training very hard, hope is back! Similarly, the heroes not killing or imprisoning Gero doesn't prompt some ethics debate. It's quickly mentioned, but that's it.

Hell, they let Vegeta chill at Capsule Corp. The entire reasoning is that funny panel where Bulma says he better not try to touch her and he blushes. It's all a joke. It wouldn't fly in a realistic world, and that's fine because it's not trying to be one.

powerscaling, basic intelligence of the characters

If you ever expected powerscaling to be a hard science then the very first "Z" arc proves you wrong, pretty badly, with the Earthlings speedrunning their way to Raditz. As for intelligence, I wont elaborate more, but it's ballsy to say that while reading a comic where Vegeto is dumber than a toddler.

Who doesn't want to see a smarter and more creative Goku?

Who does, though? Goku is perfectly smart and creative as it is. In fact, he is a genius, praised for his skills and plans, many times. In every major arc you could probably find a few really crafty and impressive moments he pulled. 1 Replie(s)

Kururun 6 7月

imio was saying:

Sometimes you just gotta ignore the cold logic and write something cool/emotional instead. Sometimes people acting illogical is the point. Sometimes you just go with the cliche option, because cliches exist for a reason.

DBM is able to do that. They ignored logic enough to let the Gohan team put up a fight against Bra even though she should have given them the "one tap- head explodes" treatment given their powerlevels.
It just wont do that when it matters, sadly.

I think you are massively underestimating the frequency of these stupid moments

And I think you're doing the opposite, vastly overestimating it in Z and underestimating it in DBM (as someone said above, Vegeto eating a senzu bean from hell and the infuriating Baba scene). Especially if you count stuff like "Frieza torturing his preys and enjoying himself, like he said he would, after losing his dream" or "Goku and Vegeta not wanting to fuse to finish Buu because of pride and earnest will to challenge themselves". These are deliberate and meaningful characters traits.
Honestly, other than some Cell blunders, all you're left with is the occasional "why don't we get oneshots where Stronger Fighter just explodes Weaker Fighter's head since he's 5-10 times stronger like DBM often does?" (and the answer is kind of obvious). Almost meaningless really.
But yeah, let's not expand on this subject.

Things need to make sense (not necessarily according to our world)

And they do. They absolutely do. The rules are pretty clear and obvious. This is a more comedic kind of story. People forget about the kid that defeated Piccolo because the world isn't that serious. Goku drops rabbits on the moon. Bulma is led to believe boys have tails at the age of 16.

Think about it for a moment, even looking at the designs it's incredibly stylized and out of this world. The God of the entire galaxy spends his time driving in a circle and our hero spent 40 days trying to catch his monkey. Gohan just naturally explains to the reader Krillin let his hair grow, without it feeling out of place or too 4th wall breaking, showing this relaxed and casual type of storytelling. There are obvious Japanese mythological inspirations you can't ignore when trying to understand what you're reading.
My point is simple, if all you can bring to the table is your real life common sense, then you refused engaging with Dragon Ball on its own terms. You stripped away its tone, its authorial intent, some of its themes and inspirations, and tried to fit a square into a round hole.

I mostly disagree with notion being tossed around that the main character of DBZ inherently needs to be respected and treated right

Then you'll probably enjoy DBM more, unsurprisingly, as it shares this almost surgical, cold vision of storytelling. Most people feel very differently about Dragon Ball, as evidenced by these reactions to Goku's loss.
Dragon Ball is a funny and hot blooded shonen where people do martial arts that make children (the target audience) dream. It's meant to make you pumped up, to be full of exciting battles and show the self-improvement journey of lovable characters. Goku has become a symbol both in and out universe, a symbol of hope, growth, strength, and generally just a good-natured, casual sense of adventure. That's why he was the Tokyo Olympics Ambassador. When you treat Goku like garbage, you also undermine these themes, which are core to Dragon Ball as a whole. All you're left with is some shallow "worldbuilding" leftover from a few manga arcs Toriyama wrote, like it's some kind of space opera, all the pieces but none of the purpose. You've stripped all of the meaning away, and now what you have is basically akin to a tabletop RPG with all the characters and their powers but nothing more. 1 Replie(s)

Kururun 6 7月

Kururun was saying:
I think it's fairly obvious Salagir has disdain for a lot of DBZ which I share. All things considered I do not enjoy DBZ save for a few moments and think DBM is better. For example DBZ constantly had characters acting stupidly which just isn't compelling or relatable.

I think this is more of a "you" issue than a Dragon Ball issue. The characters make a few blunders in the Cell arc but generally speaking not that much, and the few "stupid" moments are just because things just aren't that serious. You said below that you don't care for conventional storytelling, but you're the one trying to apply realism and real life common sense to a story that never tried to stick with it, not even close. Dragon Ball has always been that kind of "higher level" world.
Best example to understand that is Gohan. DBM likes to go with the PTSD Gohan way since realistically that's what a 5 year old would feel after what happened to him. Dragon Ball never did that. It wasn't the point. People even forgot about the kid who saved the RR army, and they believe Satan killed Cell.
Basically, it's not that serious. You're reading the wrong story if you wish it was. And you're probably writing the wrong manga if you write one for something you dislike.

A lot of people who have issues with this turn of events right now (myself included but for slightly different reasons) mention how this goes against traditional plot structures and arcs which I think are completely unimportant metrics and invalid generally, if that makes sense.

Conventional plot structures exist for a reason. It's perfectly fine to subvert them, when you can deliver something better instead. In this case, it would have been possible to handle this fight in many ways that would deliver all the good of traditional plot structures while still delivering the same value at the end, OR, the opposite, maximize the subversion and do it in a better way than what we had. I'll just say, subverting for the sake of subversion is a pretty big red flag generally speaking, and something the DBM writing falls into way too often, possibly due to the webcomic format incentivizing twists and swerves at every page to keep the reader interested, no matter how clunky it gets once you read the entire thing.

DBM has far, far less issues with powerscaling, plotholes, and characters acting stupid than DBZ ever did

Does it, though?
I'm pretty sure every fight involving Bra and Buu is problematic powerwise, like "different orders of magnitude separate the two contestants but there's no oneshot and the story pretends it's an actual fight".
Buu himself being that strong makes no sense in the first place, he multiplied his powerlevel by thousands in 20 years despite having nothing worth absorbing compared to Goku & friends.
I also remember tons of stupid choices. Let me say that the Baba stuff from the latest Gohan-Androids special is singlehandedly the most stupid, and infuriating decision ever made by a Dragon Ball character, in any Dragon Ball media. 2 Replie(s)

Kururun 6 7月

Dislpay name was saying:

It's nice to see Goten caring so much about his dad, he is definitly one of the more ignored characters both in media and in the fanbase.

Also i guess i was too optimistic in the previous page for thinking Goku would just stand up again, RIP Goku.

I would have agreed with you if not for that almost comedic "he didn't that any risks, grr!" speech bubble at the end that kind of trivializes what happened by focusing on the technical aspects of the move rather than the fact THE Goku died. As things are, this is just another infodump.

Also, it feels incredibly fitting that the Multiverse (magic) tournament ends with an OC straight up murdering the heart of Dragon Ball by using the non martial arts spell of another OC retconned to be overpowered even though he was written as a joke. It really says something.

despite agreeing with Salagir generally that DBZ is poorly made

What was that about? Also you can head out to the DBM English forum linked below. 2 Replie(s)

Kururun 6 7月

Lol, the disrespect. I expected no less :^) 1 Replie(s)

Kururun 5 7月

By the way, there was a really good way to make it actually work.

1. No Time Dimension shit. Just have it happen the second Goku's feet touch the ground.

2. Make it extra cheeky and have the fight start in the previous chapter, the prizes one. Make it happen at the end of the chapter, to leave on a twist.
There you go! You didn't have to make this nice (stupid) troll cover that tries to sell you Goku as cool before shitting on him.

Kururun 5 7月

goten-kun was saying:

Kururun disait : De base je trouve ça extrêmement OOC que Gohan devienne un tueur qui attaque la Terre comme ça, c'est juste pas son personnage.
Ça tombe bien, ce n'est pas Gohan c'est Nasu. Il a vécu la plus grande partie de sa vie avec des genocidaires qui lui ont inculqué cette manière de vivre.
N'importe quel enfant de 4 ans élevé dans la violence comme ça devient un être sanguinaire lui aussi.
C'est en effet totalement OOC, ce n'est plus Gohan.

Ce que je veux dire c'est que c'est plus réaliste d'imaginer qu'il serait mort que d'imaginer cette évolution.
6 mois dans la nature hostile ça l'a juste fait grandir, l'entraînement avec Piccolo pareil.

Faut déjà se creuser un peu la tête pour imaginer Gohan qui va tuer des innocents pour survivre, mais pour imaginer Gohan qui va aller massacrer les terriens pour ça sur le compte de ses kidnappeurs qui ont tué son père, c'est encore plus improbable. Et si c'est le cas bah la tête de sa mère devrait pas y changer quoi que ce soit.

Avoir 5 ans ne l'a pas empêché d'aller faire du combat à mort sur Terre et Namek donc c'est pas comme si cet argument d'âge pouvait être appliqué si facilement. Un 5 ans dans Dragon Ball est pas pareil qu'un 5 ans chez nous.
Après c'est un peu le pitch de base de l'histoire donc ça se défend sur cette perspective on peut l'accepter plus facilement comme ça ... mais ça fait quand même bizarre de le voir participer à la team génocide de sa propre planète comme ça, éducation ou pas. 2 Replie(s)

Saigo no Son page 83

Kururun 5 7月

Usehfy was saying:

Benjiz disait : Usehfy disait : Benjiz disait : Nous avons attendu toutes ces années pour ça ???? Non c'est pas la vraie fin .. enfin j'espère vraiment sinon DBM est la plus grosse déception que j'ai jamais vu en manga.

Ce n'est évidemment pas la fin, tu oublies toutes les visions de Bardock au début qui ne se sont pas encore produite et qui concordent avec ce qu'on imagine qu'il pourrait se passer vu ce qu'on sait déjà ? ( Piccolo qui dit que tous les univers sont menacés, Gohan avec la demi DB qui dit qu'il ne pourra pas avoir son vœu en l'état... )
Ce one shot c'est la fin du combat dans le cadre du tournoi mais ce n'est que le début du vrai combat

OK c'est pas la fin du manga certes mais ont s'est tapé un tournoi pour qu'il ce finisse en queue de poisson... franchement ça me donne limite pas envie de voir la suite si c'est pour nous réinvestir pendant 10 ans et prendre encore une carotte.

Je vois pas où est la queue de poisson, ça fait des années que XXI est teasé comme le vrai antagoniste de DBM, il a littéralement éliminé les plus gros calibres du tournoi ( le trio Vegetto Ultra Buu Gast ), objectivement qu'est-ce que Goku aurait pu faire ? C'était évident que Goku se ferait laminer et que ça lancerait l'arc final, d'ailleurs il aura sans doutes l'occasion de briller plus tard mais ça n'aurait pas de sens que Goku batte XXI maintenant alors qu'on nous tease l'arc final depuis tout ce temps, c'est comme si durant l'arc Namek à son arrivé contre le commando Ginue il avait directement fumé Freezer ensuite, ça n'aurait aucun intérêt

La queue de poisson c'est de n'avoir fait aucun combat. XXI aurait pu gagner autrement après un long combat et avoir été poussé à ses limites. Goku ne va pas le battre d'ailleurs ça j'en doute fort lol, le fait qu'il soit arrivé en finale c'est censé être ce qui te satisfait en tant que fan de Goku et U18. 1 Replie(s)

Kururun 5 7月

Skydrax was saying:

Hey, dinguses!!! Before complaining, do you all realize the font used is the "vision" font, the font they always use when they show possible escenarios???

I wish, but sadly it's just the glitch font that comes up before the final page is uploaded.

imio was saying:

iron leaf was saying: XXI discovered a safe OHK for Goku at that moment. Attentive readers would definitely recognize this in future re-reads.
That's EXACTLY what you are supposed to deconstruct here! XXI is always confident about winning because he cheats and asks for perfect solution. This is the final match, you make it look like he has the win in the bag and BAM Goku surprises him and puts up a much tougher fight than XXI expected, finding a solution to XXI's solution. This fight is the ONE place where you allow yourself to use some cliches and fanservice to make the fight more fun for the readers, instead of being stubborn by making it three pages long because you speedrun to another plot group brawl. And Goku could STILL lose in the end, nobody would mind.

Yep, that's the obvious implication here. That's what should have happened, at least following basic media literacy.

Kururun 4 7月

XXI beat Vegetto with an OHK. XXI beat #18 with an OHK. XXI defeated Zen Buu with an OHK. And now Goku too. That was totally expected. Especially if you read carefully. Retroactively, page 2462 indirectly says that XXI has already won. Because he has discovered an OHK that he can use on Goku, and that's what happened in the end. (Gast is the exception, and if XXI was aware of IKL's time stop ability before his semifinal fight would have started, then XXI definitely would have used that on Gast as well.)

Wait, so.... XXI used a few OHK so that means every single XXI fight must be one? Does that mean the Gast fight isn't fine because it changed the rule? And now we're back to the old rule again? Are we supposed to think it's good because it's expected and then good when it's breaking the expectations? What even is this kind of argument? Why pretend XXI was threatened by Goku with previous dialogues if that's not going to be the case? Why pretend this was going to be a good fight with that cover referencing actually good fights?

This is the final fight, why should it be the same as XXI turning off 18 with a remote?

This comic has shown time and time again that the heroes, the DBZ fighters in general, even Goku himself, do not get special treatment as was the case in DB/Z. Our heroes can be killed by a Kienzan just as easily as a villain

"This story doesn't deliver satisfying beats but it's fine because the superpowers I made up explain why that happened and why the bad guys OHK everyone, do you like it now?" is never a good argument.

You write the story and superpowers you want. You make it so that things are satisfying and interesting. Not the other way around, you're not a slave to XXI's superpowers, you don't even have to give him time stop.

Kururun 4 7月

Do you remember when Taopaipai defeated Goku and when Piccolo Daimao defeated Goku? Was the story (arc) over immediately after that? Or did Goku have his rematch?

These situations have nothing similar, and that should be obvious.

This has a chapter cover alluding to all of Goku's previous budokai tournaments. This is invoking strong feelings, strong connections to powerful climaxes. It delivered the exact opposite.

Piccolo Daimao almost killing Goku was a big part of a dramatic process, and it took some time. It was brutal and made the reader feel scared. It wasn't a 3 pages gag.
Taopaipai was the "challenger" meant to stop Goku. And he did so, at the beginning of the arc, when nobody expected anything else but that.

You can't just dodge your way out of "we didn't deliver in the climax" by promising yet more unconventional climaxes when it seems even conventional ones can't stick the landing.

I do not believe the way this fight was written delivers anything other than cheap shock value, which at this point is so overplayed that it doesn't hit anymore. Everyone here knew the writers could do something like that, they just wanted to believe the writers wouldn't.

But hey, look on the bright side! We get to discuss time powers, and dimension powers, and teleportation, and dark dimensions! And super regeneration, and .... I guess martial arts will have to wait.

Kururun 4 7月

Wow, j'espère que c'est une vision parce que c'est vraiment débile narrativement. Aucune satisfaction.

Aucun fin n'est pas décevante, car on imagine toujours quelque chose qui est rarement ce que l'auteur aura imaginé :)

Bah non, la fin de Goku vs Kid Buu était ultra satisfaisante et quasiment tout le monde l'adorait. Pareil pour Gohan vs Cell. Ou, un exemple plus "subversif" : la fin de Freeza était très bien.

Kururun 4 7月

Is this a joke or a fakeout?

It can't be anything but these two options. Either Goku tricked us all and it's still going on, or this is a joke and DBM writers are far more invested in stupid subversions than delivering a satisfying Dragon Ball story.

No, knowing it's I'K'L's power or whoever else's doesn't mean anything to me and it doesn't satisfy me narratively. This doesn't make up for the lack of a finale. This doesn't make this any more satisfying.

"But it makes sense mechanically!" will never be an appropriate answer to "why this story isn't delivering the good story beats"

Kururun 3 7月

De base je trouve ça extrêmement OOC que Gohan devienne un tueur qui attaque la Terre comme ça, c'est juste pas son personnage. 3 Replie(s)

Saigo no Son page 83

Kururun 15 6月

Hophophop on me la fera pas passer en contrebande sous les couvertures, je l'ai grillée moi

[img]

DB Multiverse page 2505

Kururun 15 6月

Entities of justice? Really?

[img]

1 Replie(s)

DB Multiverse page 2505

Kururun 14 6月

Bon point : le parallèle est sympa et essaye de construire quelque chose, on aime bien

Mauvais point : l'U9 est vraiment out ? J'espère que c'est un fake

DB Multiverse page 2504

Kururun 7 6月

Lol le QI négatif du Kaioshin. J'espère que c'est pas fini pour l'U9...

DB Multiverse page 2501

Kururun 4 6月

Très heureux que Raditz ne soit pas faible, ça sauve cette plotline de l'avortement sans raison. Moins fan de la Videl à la tête de psychopathe, c'est pas vraiment son caractère.

DB Multiverse page 2500

Kururun 17 5月

I do not believe the dialogues would go like that, especially Vegeta's line. He would not say this like that, at best he'd think "a starving beast..." in silence instead of calmly debating Xxi with his bud like that.

DB Multiverse page 2492

Kururun 11 5月

... I know this is meant to be intimidating but this makes no sense. He should have no purpose telling the Saiyans this. Just kill Kaioshin/Raditz and move on.

You are correct, unless a character is dumping the Backstory And Origin section of his Wikia page. (towards his actual enemy, whom he should distrust at this moment.) xD

That's arguably a rare instance of clunky dialogues in DB. Not only does this almost never happen, but even here it has better reasons to:
1. Dramatic purposes and introducing new story beats that actually shape the manga
2. Piccolo was dead in Cell's mind so gloating can make SOME sense for him

This is obviously not "Wow! Vegeto is as heavy as the moon now and we need to state it out loud so the reader knows people flying towards him are drawn by stupid bro science instead of rule of cool!". 1 Replie(s)

DB Multiverse page 2490

Kururun 11 5月

@Joey21_&_CompactCoven
PleaseAre you sure? It's the same guy who introduced Goku as bulletproof by having Bulma shoot at him.

It's kind of Toriyama's trademark. Introducing a sort of Deus Ex Machina, just to steer the plot in the exact direction he wants at the moment. Something that doesn't necessarily contradict previous lore and can be easily explained, but isn't introduced properly, instead popping in out of nowhere.

Goku can read Krillin's mind right after arriving on Namek. Wow. What a coincidence that this very ability is introduced when you want Goku to be up to date with the latest events on Namek within a page.

Dende can suddenly heal other people. Wow. What a coincidence that it's introduced exactly when you want the Z-Fighters to keep fighting Freeza without a long interruption.

You're missing the point, I disagree with a lot of these "deus ex machina" but the point is that Toriyama would never have someone state "Goku is immune to bullets", he'd just have some guy shoot Goku and have Goku tank it comedically (see: the sniper shooting Goku during the RR base attack) or Goku catch the bullets in a cool way (Roshi catching the RR guys bullets in the same arc).
You would never see a character dumping the Powers And Abilities section of his Wikia page, unless it's for a very good purpose. DBM does it routinely for powerlevel debates, which is an obvious issue.

The people arguing Vegeto getting caught off guard for a comedic scene is the same as this page are pretty dishonest. A child would be smarter than DBM Vegeto. 1 Replie(s)

DB Multiverse page 2489

Kururun 10 5月

That's... Not the worst writing choice DBM made but still quite stupid imo. Vegeto has already been character assassinated before, that's just the latest instance.

Sodapopinski was saying:

The peeps from last page and inevitably this one complaining about Vegetto "character assassination" def got a different take on his DBZ showing than I did.

He was always this arrogant, and this careless. I don't think a coupla losses would change that... The Vegeta side of him never handled those well.

Basically all fusions were arrogant assholes, with this one prob topping the list.

Read the Buu fight again. The only mistep he makes is getting candied, and it's just a funny "oh shit i got zapped midsentence!" joke.

I'm surprised why 'poison immunity' is causing such a fuss. I think that's exactly something Toryiama would have introduced.

Toriyama would NEVER have written "I have poison immunity" like it's a tabletop game or something. Either he'd keep Goku and friends somewhat like regular people because making them relatable on a surface level is important for storytelling and comedy... Or he'd make a joke where Goku unknowingly drinks poison.
Actually, we've seen how Tori handles this, and it's very elegant and seamless: read the Fat Buu eating Satan's chocolate scene. 2 Replie(s)

DB Multiverse page 2489

Kururun 10 5月

C'est complètement débile comme écriture là

DB Multiverse page 2489

Kururun 24 4月

ddshunko11 was saying:

Kururun disait : Absolument ridicule. J'avais rien envie de dire sur les dessins pour ne pas tirer sur un amateur, mais y a pas besoin d'être mangaka au Shonen Jump pour se comporter un peu + pro, ou plutôt, un peu + adulte. Chier sur son lectorat n'est pas et ne sera jamais une stratégie légitime, ou gagnante, et ce malgré les quelques qui viendront défendre le move en disant "huuuuh ça en a trigger certains!!!". Il s'agirait de grandir.

Ça en a trigger certains...dont toi apparemment. Il s'agirait de garantir comme tu dis si joliment

Apparemment, il suffit de dire "ce que je fais va être critiqué" pour être protégé de la critique, c'est rigolo comment ça marche chez certains. Hey, proposition amicale : c'est possible de faire quelque chose de stupide en sachant que c'est stupide et qu'on va être critiqué pour, sans que ça devienne un bouclier magique. Oui, c'est possible de faire des bêtises en le sachant pertinemment. 1 Replie(s)

DBMultiverse Special OAV - Broly Final War page 81

Kururun 22 4月

Absolument ridicule. J'avais rien envie de dire sur les dessins pour ne pas tirer sur un amateur, mais y a pas besoin d'être mangaka au Shonen Jump pour se comporter un peu + pro, ou plutôt, un peu + adulte. Chier sur son lectorat n'est pas et ne sera jamais une stratégie légitime, ou gagnante, et ce malgré les quelques qui viendront défendre le move en disant "huuuuh ça en a trigger certains!!!". Il s'agirait de grandir. 1 Replie(s)

DBMultiverse Special OAV - Broly Final War page 81

Kururun 25 3月

Some people say Thorn could theoretically not be smarter than Bulma and Gero in some contexts or given some alternative scenarios where they get to learn from another world. But I find it incredibly hard to see this as anything other than a cope if you have to imagine alternate scenarios to try to make people swallow the multiple times Thorn has basically ridiculed these characters.

Some people might say ridiculed is a strong word here. I'll disagree, read the previous chapter again: there's no getting around the fact that Bulma is the child in the room when Big Boy Thorn is around.

And you know what? I think it wasn't even intentional. I think it was meant to add some sense of levity by portraying the comedic slightly bitchy Bulma we know (see: early Namek trip), to show Thorn is smart (multiple times, because the writers LOVE this brain over matter stuff apparently). And it's fine.... In a vacuum. Until you realize it's incongruent with the dire, tragic timeline they're in, and the very important role Bulma has, not just in this scenario but generally all of DB. She's in a lot of endings for a reason!

Basically, this is the kind of things where you can go "it makes sense because he's 800 IQ and an alien, but please ignore the time machine because it kills my narrative", and even if we accept that, it just doesn't feel right with the story, not necessarily because of plot holes, but because it feels like it definitely shouldn't be written that way... 2 Replie(s)

Kururun 24 3月

pip25 was saying:

Agreed with iron leaf. Pan remote controlling #28 is great, and I also like Thorn as a character, but him out-tech-geniusing Bulma is not what I'd call a good plot idea. Surely both characters can have their own niche without overshadowing one another.

It's even worse, Thorn is likely better than Gero at this point if hacking his systems is easier than trivial school exams. This is some advanced Gary Stu level, this guy might just be worse than Bra and Buu put together.

Fatman was saying:

It makes plenty of sense for Thorn to be this good. I mean like a thorn in the side, a constant pain for everyone. He comes from a civilization that gathers knowledge from nearly everyone. He's more capable in known theories and tech than in innovation and creation which are Bulma's domain. He also wasn't on Earth long enough to properly learn their languages and styles, so he would have to have been able to find familiarity in what's there and take advantage of known vulnerabilities and weaknesses of the system types. It makes sense.

Imagine being well versed in cybersecurity today, but going back in time 30 years. You'll know a lot of advanced concepts and things that can help beat folk in the past, but you're not necessarily capable of truly innovating during their time beyond what you already learned.

The fact that it doesn't outright and obviously create plotholes (or does it?) doesn't make it a good choice. The writers didn't HAVE to make him demonstrate his 99 INT 99 WIS stats by schooling Bulma and Gero like 4 times. This is a deliberate choice, and it makes him a Gary Stu. Or, if you don't like these kinds of buzzwords, it makes him incredibly annoying.

Also, your cybersecurity analogy doesn't work that well. You might be able to teach people some advanced cybersecurity concepts if you went back 30 years ago... How about if you went back 30 years ago but in an alien world with completely different tech?

Man, I'm glad Thorn can do politics, tech, everything (except not sound like an asshole). We almost got a potential Bulma moment by showing her efforts finally pay off as she hacks the enemy androids, facing off against Gero, not as advanced but incredibly driven and motivated for her friends! That sounds scary, I'm glad she got put in her place again instead. 2 Replie(s)

Kururun 24 3月

Néa Archi was saying:

Kururun disait : c'est aussi la fanfic qui parle de "gravité relative" pendant une page pour expliquer pourquoi Broly est pas en train de s'éloignerAlors va falloir relire la Page 232 parce que tu as tout faux là. xD

C'était juste la deuxième case, mais mon point s'applique quand même. Meilleur exemple : la masse de Vegeto qui atteint celle de la lune ou je ne sais pas quel délire alors qu'il était juste possible de dessiner des mecs en train de s'envoler sans avoir à parler physique.

Ceroxon was saying:

deedlit disait : Donc les ordis de sa planète fonctionnent pareil que ceux de la Terre ?

Les concepts de base de l'informatique doivent être les mêmes. Tout comme l'invention de la roue avant les vaisseaux spatiaux est commun à tous les peuples quelquesoit la planète.

C'est pas très très réaliste, plein de concepts de hack sont spécifiques à des principes et implémentations bien précises. Logiquement ça devrait être un calvaire de prendre en main ces systèmes complètement aliens, plus dur que ce qu'il connaît même si c'est intrinsèquement plus primitif. Là on est sur un "TV Hacker" moment où le perso dit qu'il a un gros cerveau donc il pianote et hoplà c'est fait, comme si c'était juste un check d'INT dans un RPG. Et ça serait ok si le personnage en question n'était pas déjà assez insupportable Gary Stu sans qu'on mette en avant le fait qu'il vienne de réussir un énième check d'INT, le plaçant cette fois ci bien au dessus de Dr Gero, lol.

Non, si on veut vraiment discuter cohérence c'est plutôt la question de savoir pourquoi c'est pas Gast qui fait tout ça au lieu de laisser des mecs des millions de fois plus faibles risquer leurs vies pour rien. On aime voir ces persos mineurs, c'est très sympa, mais quand Videl vient de gorer un des androïdes ennemis comme rien, je sais pas si le ton est censé être comique ou sérieux. S'il est sérieux, c'est un problème, ces gars n'ont RIEN À FAIRE ici.

Kururun 24 3月

C'est effectivement du chipotage le fait que Videl ne devrait pas pouvoir faire quoi que ce soit avec son cyborg VR mais bon DBM c'est aussi la fanfic qui parle de "gravité relative" pendant une page pour expliquer pourquoi Broly est pas en train de s'éloigner de Buu (au lieu de juste le dessiner immobile sur une case), donc on peut s'attendre à ce que ce genre d'incohérence osef fasse partie des trucs que DBM traite.

Moi ça me dérange pas du tout à partir du moment où ça devient une constante pour DBM de pas s'embêter avec ces histoires plutôt qu'un va et vient où ça explique un truc mais pas l'autre. 1 Replie(s)

Kururun 23 3月

Insupportable le mec c'est un énorme Gary Stu.

Super Gojita 3 was saying:

Kururun 5 1月

I don't think it's very accurate to just say Goku got sidelined in Z. It's more like Z doesn't really write arcs like it did before Z with the bad guy being defeated in a straight 1v1 fight to spice things up, with the exception of Freeza (Super Saiyan buildup) and Cell (Father Son and hidden potential buildup). Besides that, Goku is very much at the forefront and takes a lot of the screentime, is a direct cause of every win. You can't really say Goku was a "support character" because he doesn't always 1v1 the main bad guy, because only 2 bad guys got 1v1'd (one by Goku) and the remaining 2 were a team effort with Goku being the obvious lead. 1 Replie(s)

DB Multiverse page 2437

Kururun 4 1月

goku lost more tenkaichi budokais than he won.

Yes, but that was all meaningful buildup and development for him and the story. He can't win his first one because he has to learn that other stronger people exist and keep his drive. He loses to Tenshinhan because of a fluke because... Tenshinhan kind of earned it by changing his ways and it delays Goku's victory to the big "finale" of the classic Dragon Ball era. The 25th Budokai is a bit different.

That said Xxi winning would make sense because the entire plot depends on him. 2 Replie(s)

DB Multiverse page 2437

Kururun 2 1月

Matrixkid was saying:

Kururun was saying: iron leaf was saying: Kururun was saying: ...Videl is not 10 years old.

Still pretty much the same. Teenager is better than a kid in this situation, sure, but really not by much. No reason for her out of all these reasonably experienced and strong fighters to be the one who gets chosen, both by Thorn and Krillin (to train her). Like, sure, you could somewhat imagine her getting to 23rd Budokai Chichi level or something if she trained with all her might under Krillin and learned Ki, but then there's really no reason why it'd be her and her specifically. All these stronger and more experienced warriors would have gotten better gains in these circumstances.
Like always I'll give this story the benefit of the doubt instead of judging it. Maybe Videl had a bigger drive than all of these other fighters. She ended up getting stronger than her father in U18 despite having no reason to do so

Videl becoming stronger than Mr Satan shows he was lazy (still strong, but lazy) while she had a bigger drive... Than him. But in this context. I doubt any of these humans would be lazy in that hellhole future as they risk their lives against killer bots.

happywarrior99 was saying:

Because this U7 Videl is DBM Videl, not DBS Videl.

U9 Videl killed a majinized Cell Jr., which is proof that U9 Videl is stronger than U18 Semi-Perfect Cell. Thus U7 Videl has the potential to surpass U18 Semi-Perfect Cell.

I literally talked about this in the message you're quoting. I think it's an insane feat to give her and her specifically instead of any of the other humans that matter... But that doesn't help to sell a 14 year old Videl. You can try and justify it for her adult version even if it's kind of broken and weird but no reason for her as a kid to surge that high compared to anyone else in the room, Krillin training or not.

happywarrior99 was saying:

Several of the other DB series give to female characters the "being a non-retired active female fighter and being married are mutually exclusive" sexist treatment.

... Didn't that happen to Krillin as well? It has nothing to do with perceived sexism, being married and dedicated to your family is a very reasonable reason for not fighting as much anymore. Actually, scratch that, U16/18 Videl is more or less the same as any of her "other series" counterpart. Retired. Making a nonsensically powerful alternate version of her doesn't really count as "saving the character" or something to me.

happywarrior99 was saying:

Dragon Ball franchise has several alien races with technology and science that is more advanced than the Brief family's technology and science.

It does... But Bulma is the one who looked at the androids blueprints to make a device to stop them. How is she bimbofied in this universe that she thinks it's impossible now (but that guy who just got there thinks it is, taking now the credit for her U18 idea)? I'm sure you can find an in universe reason for that, but that doesn't change the fact that it was written on purpose rather than anything else. My point still stands, I think. I don't think there was any sexism here but it sure feels sexist to have THE MAN get in the room, correct what used to be the smartest woman in the world with FACTS and LOGIC as she ineffectively tries to manipulate him with lies and completely lags behind him in every way, bragging about now seemingly unearned achievements.

DB Multiverse page 2436

Kururun 2 1月

Kururun was saying: ...Videl is not 10 years old.

Still pretty much the same. Teenager is better than a kid in this situation, sure, but really not by much. No reason for her out of all these reasonably experienced and strong fighters to be the one who gets chosen, both by Thorn and Krillin (to train her). Like, sure, you could somewhat imagine her getting to 23rd Budokai Chichi level or something if she trained with all her might under Krillin and learned Ki, but then there's really no reason why it'd be her and her specifically. All these stronger and more experienced warriors would have gotten better gains in these circumstances. 2 Replie(s)

DB Multiverse page 2436

Kururun 1 1月

I really like Krillin shaving everything to get back in shape when hope returns. It's a simple, but effective plot device. Generally speaking Krillin is the highlight of this chapter I think.

On another hand, Thorn is the new Gary Stu around I guess? Perfectly infallible, the one calling the shots, the smartest guy in the room, the one who can read the "gray" political situations with a clear eye, the guy who understands Android technology much better than Bulma, and generally everything much better than Bulma while she brags.

Not a big fan of shoving a.... 10 year old Videl in this plot? Why would she get what I assume is Android tech to fight? Why is she even allowed to fight? Making Krillin a master is an interesting idea and I can't criticize it on principle, but in execution it seems kinda weird given the powerlevel situation. Videl was always one of the weaker fighters even amongst the Earthlings, I very much doubt it'd be different even with training (do you think she can take even thief Yamcha from volume 1? likely not, so it's not really about training). It's possible to accept her becoming INCREDIBLY strong in the main DBM plot (yes, beating an amped up Cell Jr, Kaioken or not, is incredibly broken given how DBM treats powerlevels and the Earthling cast powerwise) because so much time has passed and this is an entirely different universe, but... she's 10 year old. She has no right being better than anyone in the room, honestly, she can surpass Mr Satan at 17 or 18 but this is silly.

Others have said she might be controlling Androids here but again, there's no reason why it should be the little girl doing that and not any of the more experienced fighters who actually seem to have fought on the battlefield and know their enemies (preemptively calling out the "Gohan was 5 when he started fighting" argument by the way, not the same thing). That's also assuming they really NEED Krillin on the battlefield as himself, because he'd obviously be a better fit for anything than anyone here, but even without him Satan should be putting in the work. That's... kind of his thing, actually, when you think about it. He pulls through. 2 Replie(s)

DB Multiverse page 2436

Kururun 28 12月

Going to Namek is like going on another DB search trip. She didn't need to be there. Krillin and Gohan would've been enough. Do you think she would even manage to do anything on her own if she didn't want to take Krillin as her "bodyguard", let alone survive? That's obviously IF Freeza or anyone else didn't show up. Guru gave Gohan and Krillin his Dragon Ball because he read their minds and knew they're good. Bulma is more selfish than good.

Future Bulma is a whole different character than her counterpart we know. Of course she would change. She lost literally everything, unlike this DBM special's Bulma who just lives under Gero's occupation not two maniacal teenagers who kill everyone on sight and have fun with it.

Bulma very much needed to be there. She's the one driving the ship. She was okay with losing two months of her life for that. By the way, she could've insisted for Popo to go instead of her. The real reason she didn't was because Toriyama wanted Bulma there, not Popo, but if we're going to take things at face value then surely this counts.

Didn't even hold any grudge towards anyone for that by the way. First thing she did when she got back? Inviting all homeless aliens to stay at her place for a year. And she wasn't infatuated with Vegeta at the time.

I don't really see how to interpret this other than a good thing. Very obviously much more meaningful than "she was scared for her life and rationalized running for it during a high stakes situation" (which shows she's not Wonderwoman, not that she's a bad person).

Also, future Bulma is just Bulma who faces tragedy. When she does, she endures and pushes through. Just like our Bulma did by learning Namekian in 3 days, repairing two spaceships in the same time (breaking one though) and going on a long, dangerous space trip to save her dead friends. Except there's no ship for the androids future, just a time machine to save an entire timeline and revive hope. Her flaws are real but also superficial compared to her core and portrayal.

Honestly this idea to bring down one of the best and most important female DB characters is kinda weird. 1 Replie(s)

Kururun 28 12月

Kururun was saying: عمار was saying: Kururun was saying: Bulma was originally written as a selfish city girl for the Pilaf arc because it made for a more interesting MC duo (naive pure martial arts boy, self interested sophisticated city teenage girl). They bounced off each other better. Once the arc ended, Bulma's selfishness barely ever came into play and she was consistently written as a good person (while still somewhat retaining her "city girl" edge but far less relevant). She did nothing but support and help her buddies, and she's arguably the Dragon Ball heroine.

All what see was in the Red Ribbon army arc. Bulma did care about her friends and helped them a lot. But she's definitely not this "selfless heroine" you making her out to be. She's as selfish as she can get and when the situation gets very ugly, she will put her life before anyone else. All these negative treats stayed with her for a long time throughout the show.

Delphince and Myetic Zander weren't exaggerating with their description on OG Bulma. This is who she was.

Not wanting to get buried alive in a cave doesn't make someone selfish though. Doesn't make her selfless either, obviously. My words were "arguably the DB heroine", in the sense that she kickstarted everything that made Dragon Ball the way it was. My point is that what people used to call her "a bad person at best, who should be locked up at worst" are merely basic human traits of not wanting to fight a world class army or stay in the collapsing cave (especially when they have, well, Dragon Balls, and know their friend is super powerful and might survive this unlike the powerless teenage girl). Human traits, and, well, traits that fit a somewhat spoiled (but still romantic and idealistic) girl: wouldn't call these bad people in real life either.

So, yeah. Dragon Ball heroine makes sense to me. Not superheroine, but a generally good person who stepped up when push came to shove. She deserves more credit than she gets here for Namek and the time machine. I'd agree she acts less heroic than Goku overall.

I am yet to see even one example of Bulma "stepping up". Just because she's useful to her friends does not mean she's a "heroine" or that she's "stepping up". More often than not, it's her selfishness that keeps her going - at least in DB and DBS, I can't recall an example from Z (however she was not innocent during this period too, by endangering lives during Z and was kind of a hinderance during Android Saga (fight with Gero) and Buu Saga (using Shenron before Buu was dealt with))

Going on a 2 months trip (at least) on a foreign planet to resurrect her friends who fought for Earth, initially only taking Krillin with her (Gohan asked to join after that)?

Building a time machine to, in her own words "at least save one timeline" as a first goal.

[img]

1 Replie(s)

Kururun 28 12月

عمار was saying:

Kururun was saying: Bulma was originally written as a selfish city girl for the Pilaf arc because it made for a more interesting MC duo (naive pure martial arts boy, self interested sophisticated city teenage girl). They bounced off each other better. Once the arc ended, Bulma's selfishness barely ever came into play and she was consistently written as a good person (while still somewhat retaining her "city girl" edge but far less relevant). She did nothing but support and help her buddies, and she's arguably the Dragon Ball heroine.

All what see was in the Red Ribbon army arc. Bulma did care about her friends and helped them a lot. But she's definitely not this "selfless heroine" you making her out to be. She's as selfish as she can get and when the situation gets very ugly, she will put her life before anyone else. All these negative treats stayed with her for a long time throughout the show.

Delphince and Myetic Zander weren't exaggerating with their description on OG Bulma. This is who she was.

Not wanting to get buried alive in a cave doesn't make someone selfish though. Doesn't make her selfless either, obviously. My words were "arguably the DB heroine", in the sense that she kickstarted everything that made Dragon Ball the way it was. My point is that what people used to call her "a bad person at best, who should be locked up at worst" are merely basic human traits of not wanting to fight a world class army or stay in the collapsing cave (especially when they have, well, Dragon Balls, and know their friend is super powerful and might survive this unlike the powerless teenage girl). Human traits, and, well, traits that fit a somewhat spoiled (but still romantic and idealistic) girl: wouldn't call these bad people in real life either.

So, yeah. Dragon Ball heroine makes sense to me. Not superheroine, but a generally good person who stepped up when push came to shove. She deserves more credit than she gets here for Namek and the time machine. I'd agree she acts less heroic than Goku overall. 1 Replie(s)

Kururun 28 12月

ZenBuu was saying:

MultiKoopa was saying: Is... Is this a media literacy problem? Do I have to start sounding like a pretentious asshat to tackle the issue here?
Ehh...no? On the contrary, I would prefer if you do not act kind of condescending here, like you are definitely doing lately (again). You already have 2 official warnings, by two different moderators... just saiyan.

Am I allowed to respond to this post without my answer being erased? Since you brought up the subject of me apparently being condescending, not just once but "again", I feel like a right to response is earned.

If so, I don't see how calling out a lack of media literacy is condescending. In this context, the point we're discussing is "not all moments in a story are to be taken at face value", which doesn't seem to be a matter of opinions and more about an objective observation of how stories are told. Hence "media literacy problem". What part of this seems wrong?

Other than that, feel free to skim through my post history and see for yourself that my comments and points are all made with perfectly reasonable language. In fact, my comments seldom mention anything other than Dragon Ball.

I say it speaks volumes that the only thing you could point out here wasn't any actual condescension but an obviously ironic sentence that very much works in the opposite direction. Maybe it is a media literacy problem after all. 2 Replie(s)

Myetic Zander was saying:

Kururun 28 12月

ssss was saying:

Right because someone else with their own artstyle certainly wouldn't depict a humorous moment differently than Toriyama. This isn't even counting all the goofy shit that was in both versions of the Goku Black arc of Super. No, yeah, certainly out of character.

This has nothing to do with artstyle. Cheap jokes were never used in the context of the future timeline (I have no reason to count Super in that assessment btw, DBM doesn't take it into account either).

Trunks didn't make a single goofy face in the entire manga run, let alone this very specific kind of SD style face. Why? Because he was a serious character from a serious timeline and the way the story treated him reflected that.

Same for future Bulma, by the way. Toriyama wasn't afraid to use tonal whiplash in some contexts (see: Satan thinking Buu was a dream after Earth was blown up), but even he refrained from doing that in the context of the future timeline. This is how the future timeline is depicted:

Always with a sense of gravitas, melancholy, lingering sadness. Exactly the way it should be.

I'm usually saying DBM should take itself a bit less seriously and have some more of that Toriyama irreverence, but... not in this context. This isn't where it should happen, imo.

Ah gotcha. So moments of significance only need to be serious when YOU see fit. When they support your views on the narrative. Your complaints now make a lot more sense.

Is... Is this a media literacy problem? Do I have to start sounding like a pretentious asshat to tackle the issue here?

Why do you think every single moment in the story needs to be taken at face value and define the characters entire personality and moral core? Is Yamcha meant to be a piece of shit because he used to be a thief and shot an RPG at the heroes' car? That'd put you in prison in real life, surely Toriyama meant that he was evil!

Myetic Zander was saying:

Also he’s right in saying Bulma wasn’t a good person. She may have changed in Z but he just described her og dragon ball personality to a perfect T. The entire first arc of DB is Bulma using the same child she attempted to kill (yes I realize he flipped her car. Doesn’t change the fact that she had no hesitation in unloading rounds into what looked like a damn near toddler) as a meat shield while she hunted for a Bf. Then she tried to offer him sexual favors despite, again, looking way younger than the average human of his own age.
You’re views on a ‘bad person’ are twisted if she’s anything but.
Bulma is AT BEST incredibly selfish…and a worst? She deserves to be locked up.

Refer to above. What you're writing is genuinely insane. Bulma was originally written as a selfish city girl for the Pilaf arc because it made for a more interesting MC duo (naive pure martial arts boy, self interested sophisticated city teenage girl). They bounced off each other better. Once the arc ended, Bulma's selfishness barely ever came into play and she was consistently written as a good person (while still somewhat retaining her "city girl" edge but far less relevant). She did nothing but support and help her buddies, and she's arguably the Dragon Ball heroine. It started with her, and ended with her. She's the one who restored hope to the future timeline.

Arguing she's a bad person when basically all of her scenes are meant to portray her as endearing is just being media illiterate. She's not meant to be a boring goody two shoes either, just a good person with flaws that make her more interesting. 3 Replie(s)

Kururun 27 12月

ssss was saying:

Ah yes, because Future Bulma, Future Gohan, and Future Trunks never joked around. Nope, these characters should just be depressed 24/7

Toriyama never drew them making funny SD faces because it was obviously tonally deaf

Delphince was saying:

Bulma honestly ISN'T a good person. Her degree of selfishness pushes her right up to the edge of being a villain, and her goals have just never directly clashed with the well-being of the world. Capsule Corp brings her inventions to the people, but her motivation is wealth rather than altruism. Time and again, when she's had the opportunity to help herself OR society, she chooses herself, every time. Trunks' dark future has shown that when the chips are down, she can be broken to show a good person inside, but the same could be said for Vegeta's character development.

That's... not an accurate portrayal of Bulma, to say the least. The worst she has shown was trying to shoot Goku in self defense in chapter 1, which was more about being funny than portraying her moral core. Is Bulma a selfless superhero? No, why would she be? Is she a bad person? Fuck no. She has always been supportive, thoughtful, caring for her friends... Even daring, since she was willing to go to Namek despite the two months trip, just to help revive their friends. We've also seen her being nice to strangers like the Namekians, and responsible when it comes to the fate of the Earth with the Gero situation.

Bulma is basically your standard good person wrapped in the comedic package of "whiny city girl". She gets bonus points for being the heart of Dragon Ball by triggering the meeting that started it all, and saving the future by building a fucking time machine just because Goku represented HOPE that much for her. 2 Replie(s)

Kururun 27 12月

Yeah my criticism from previous pages rung true, it was actually about making this cringeworthy space opera muh science ramblings. I don't care to know this piece of shit Thorn is using multiple sources instead of relying on space Wikipedia.

Bulma's "funny" face in the last panel is very tone deaf. Is it supposed to be a tragic timeline where Goku and many more died, or a funny one? I thought Krillin's reaction to Gast being their savior in this hopeless situation was pretty heartwarming, but these parts are filler and just take away the emotional impact it could have had. It's not anymore about Gast saving a hopeless future, and more about the space opera picture the writers want to paint (without as much success in my opinion) 2 Replie(s)

Kururun 23 12月

kkk was saying:

"The world is my responsibility. I'll protect us from this threat."

With this line and Thorn saying he needs to hear both sides of the story, it almost seems like they're trying to show us Gero has some sort of integrity and not entirely evil. But seeing that if aliens invaded and eventually conquered Earth, Gero and Red Ribbon would no longer dominate the world, I can't see Gero's intentions as noble. It's just the same selfish reason Piccolo joined forces with Goku against Raditz, Nappa and Vegeta - if he doesn't stop the aliens, he can no longer dominate the world.

Let's be real, Gero is basically a school shooter. Dude beheaded a driver and then blew up a third of the island. Not being a mass murderer but actually just a dictator who still feels some responsibility towards Earth implies he changed over the years, this isn't Z Gero here.

DB Multiverse page 2432

Kururun 22 12月

Usually not into overcomplicating the setting but that one is pretty funny. Good one.

DB Multiverse page 2432

Kururun 22 12月

kumesana was saying:

Kururun disait : Je n'appellerais pas ce qu'il vient de faire (dire aux membres de la résistance opprimés et massacrés par les androïdes tueurs que ce sont peut-être eux qui sont en tort) de la diplomatie lol

On peut envisager la notion de diplomatie sans forcément d'hypocrisie. La diplomatie dicte qu'on entre pas en guerre sans savoir la réalité de qui fait quoi. On peut essayer de faire des ronds de jambes qui essaient d'impliquer que tout ça c'est la faute mécanique de cette méchante diplomatie. Ou on peut dire franchement qu'on est arrivé sur la planète il y a une heure et que quand on nous parle ça peut être pour nous dire des mensonges, ça s'est vu ailleurs.

Sauf que les androides ont attaqué et presque tué Gast et Thorn lui même, et que Krillin est un ami de Gast qui vient de lui sauver la vie au demeurant lol. Un moment la situation est claire et c'est la scène qui est mal construite. Y a pas "d'entrée en guerre", c'est une question binaire : tuer les androides tueurs qui ont tué les amis de Gast et allaient tuer Gast lui-même, sans accepter de répondre à ses questions ou un quelconque dialogue ? Ou refuser et leur dire d'aller se faire foutre.

La prochaine fois que les persos veulent faire semblant qu'il y a quelque chose de moralement gris, il faudrait que la situation s'y prête. À plus fort titre quand on voit à quel point Thorn parle comme un bon connard en dernière case avec son "gnéhé moi je suis DIPLOMATE hein !". Ridicule et complètement en dissonance avec la tête cartoon comique de Bulma. 1 Replie(s)

Kururun 22 12月

Jival was saying:

N'oublions pas que le gamin vient d'une assemblée de sages, les Alcméniens, qui accumulent le savoir de tout l'univers et passent des accords avec les mondes avoisinants pour préserver Icarion des envahisseurs. Pas étonnant que Thorn soit empreint de diplomatie en venant d'un monde pareil.

Je n'appellerais pas ce qu'il vient de faire (dire aux membres de la résistance opprimés et massacrés par les androïdes tueurs que ce sont peut-être eux qui sont en tort) de la diplomatie lol 1 Replie(s)

Kururun 22 12月

Kururun was saying: Damian Qualshy was saying: Kururun was saying: Damian Qualshy was saying: Kururun was saying: This was good so far but I hate this page. Not because we have a group of underdogs who shouldn't be able to fight any of the androids, powerlevels don't matter and will be discarded at any time if needed, whether it's Dragon Ball, Super or Multiverse. We've seen that happen many times.

No, I hate Thorn intellectualizing something that really shouldn't be. You're not writing some ambiguous universe with tons of morally grey factions and goals. You're writing a Dragon Ball sequel. General Red wanted to conquer the world and get taller, it's that simple, it's that goofy. No bullshit added. I can squint my eyes and accept the idea of Gast having a "diplomat" companion who does some of the thinking, but not when it comes to the forefront of such an obviously black and white situation. No Thorn, you're not the guy you think you are. This scene is stupid.

I'm sure you can try to explain why he'd still react like that after being attacked by one of these androids and seeing Gast almost die to them, even when one of Gast's good friends is explaining they're bad news and asking for Gast's help. I'm sure you can tweak things enough to defend Thorn being a dumb piece of shit here. The question is, why would you? Why should he act like that in the first place? Just to highlight this fetish for morally grey space wars? General Red just wanted to get taller, man. And that was good.

Explain to me what was goofy about King Piccolo Saga, Saiyan Saga, Namek Saga, Android/Cell Saga and half of Buu Saga because I think I might've missed it.

Like, what does Red have to do with anything here?

Red, as in the Red Ribbon, has everything to do with how this arc started. I know Gero isn't Red, but it still feels incredibly contrived to shoehorn in this attempt at moral ambiguity/"but both sides??" in a situation that is so clearly and obviously black and white.

Hell, I'd have accepted it if Thorn and Gast didn't almost get killed by these guys 5 minutes ago AND if Krillin wasn't a good friend of Gast. Then, and only then, you would have a seemingly ambiguous situation where MAYBE the killer androids aren't so bad and it's actually the plucky resistance underdogs who wanted to do bad things. (I'm being charitable here).

But when you consider the points I mentioned above then it's very obvious the situation is forcing its way into pretending to be ambiguous when it's absolutely not, because the writers really love the concept of it in general but didn't think enough about implementing it correctly.

I love the comedy on this page by the way. It's a really nice callback to minor manga characters, powerlevels nitpicking aside it feels appropriate to see these guys here.... But then the page shifts towards this serious "muh morally gray space wars" idea and the tone clashes with the comedy.

Still a good chapter so far and I really enjoy what they did with Gast (hell, I think all the Gast chapters are at least good, sometimes OUTSTANDING. Good job). Just pointing out my view on this one element, but I think it'll move somewhere else soon enough.

Except you didn't talk about Red Ribbon. You specifically mentioned General Red and his wish on the dragon balls, which has no relation to anything and especially not Gero.
The only reason RR is kind of important for Android Saga is because Goku destroyed a base and Gero's son died. That's it. The end.

Yes, Thorn's response is really out of place here, but you brought up one meaningless thing as an argument for "this shouldn't be a serious story" when Dragon Ball (and especially Z) is in fact a serious story at least 80% of the time.

It's not that this shouldn't be a serious story, it's that there shouldn't be any shoehorned attempt at moral ambiguity here. Red Ribbon is the evil army trying to conquer the world (and for a reason as silly as Red wanting to be taller). Gero is the evil scientist wanting revenge and world domination, making the killer bots. Cell is also very plainly evil, although there is a nice theme of him being a dark parallel/mix of the heroes, it's an underlying theme, much more subtle than Thorn pretending things are ambiguous to the resistance and Gast's friends.

I can't fault a story for being serious but I think sometimes DBM takes itself too seriously/is overindulgent in that. There's a nuance here. Freeza slaughtering children on Namek is as dark as most stories can get, but the way it's done for narrative and dramatic purposes rather than attempts at crafting some fancy worldbuilding makes it different.

Thorn has no clue about anyone and anything, of course he's going to be sceptical. It's not bad writing, it's realistic and works for the character.

Thorn is implying there is a chance the killer androids that tried to kill everyone, including himself and Gast's good friend (who obviously looks like he's suffered a lot), are possibly the good guys and might not have to be stopped. This isn't being a diplomat, this is being an idiot pretending to be smart.

Like I said above, being able to reach for reasons that can somewhat rationalize what that character is doing doesn't suddenly make it good. 1 Replie(s)

Kururun 22 12月

Kururun was saying: Damian Qualshy was saying: Kururun was saying: This was good so far but I hate this page. Not because we have a group of underdogs who shouldn't be able to fight any of the androids, powerlevels don't matter and will be discarded at any time if needed, whether it's Dragon Ball, Super or Multiverse. We've seen that happen many times.

No, I hate Thorn intellectualizing something that really shouldn't be. You're not writing some ambiguous universe with tons of morally grey factions and goals. You're writing a Dragon Ball sequel. General Red wanted to conquer the world and get taller, it's that simple, it's that goofy. No bullshit added. I can squint my eyes and accept the idea of Gast having a "diplomat" companion who does some of the thinking, but not when it comes to the forefront of such an obviously black and white situation. No Thorn, you're not the guy you think you are. This scene is stupid.

I'm sure you can try to explain why he'd still react like that after being attacked by one of these androids and seeing Gast almost die to them, even when one of Gast's good friends is explaining they're bad news and asking for Gast's help. I'm sure you can tweak things enough to defend Thorn being a dumb piece of shit here. The question is, why would you? Why should he act like that in the first place? Just to highlight this fetish for morally grey space wars? General Red just wanted to get taller, man. And that was good.

Explain to me what was goofy about King Piccolo Saga, Saiyan Saga, Namek Saga, Android/Cell Saga and half of Buu Saga because I think I might've missed it.

Like, what does Red have to do with anything here?

Red, as in the Red Ribbon, has everything to do with how this arc started. I know Gero isn't Red, but it still feels incredibly contrived to shoehorn in this attempt at moral ambiguity/"but both sides??" in a situation that is so clearly and obviously black and white.

Hell, I'd have accepted it if Thorn and Gast didn't almost get killed by these guys 5 minutes ago AND if Krillin wasn't a good friend of Gast. Then, and only then, you would have a seemingly ambiguous situation where MAYBE the killer androids aren't so bad and it's actually the plucky resistance underdogs who wanted to do bad things. (I'm being charitable here).

But when you consider the points I mentioned above then it's very obvious the situation is forcing its way into pretending to be ambiguous when it's absolutely not, because the writers really love the concept of it in general but didn't think enough about implementing it correctly.

I love the comedy on this page by the way. It's a really nice callback to minor manga characters, powerlevels nitpicking aside it feels appropriate to see these guys here.... But then the page shifts towards this serious "muh morally gray space wars" idea and the tone clashes with the comedy.

Still a good chapter so far and I really enjoy what they did with Gast (hell, I think all the Gast chapters are at least good, sometimes OUTSTANDING. Good job). Just pointing out my view on this one element, but I think it'll move somewhere else soon enough.

Except you didn't talk about Red Ribbon. You specifically mentioned General Red and his wish on the dragon balls, which has no relation to anything and especially not Gero.
The only reason RR is kind of important for Android Saga is because Goku destroyed a base and Gero's son died. That's it. The end.

Yes, Thorn's response is really out of place here, but you brought up one meaningless thing as an argument for "this shouldn't be a serious story" when Dragon Ball (and especially Z) is in fact a serious story at least 80% of the time.

It's not that this shouldn't be a serious story, it's that there shouldn't be any shoehorned attempt at moral ambiguity here. Red Ribbon is the evil army trying to conquer the world (and for a reason as silly as Red wanting to be taller). Gero is the evil scientist wanting revenge and world domination, making the killer bots. Cell is also very plainly evil, although there is a nice theme of him being a dark parallel/mix of the heroes, it's an underlying theme, much more subtle than Thorn pretending things are ambiguous to the resistance and Gast's friends.

I can't fault a story for being serious but I think sometimes DBM takes itself too seriously/is overindulgent in that. There's a nuance here. Freeza slaughtering children on Namek is as dark as most stories can get, but the way it's done for narrative and dramatic purposes rather than attempts at crafting some fancy worldbuilding makes it different. 1 Replie(s)

Kururun 21 12月

Kururun was saying: This was good so far but I hate this page. Not because we have a group of underdogs who shouldn't be able to fight any of the androids, powerlevels don't matter and will be discarded at any time if needed, whether it's Dragon Ball, Super or Multiverse. We've seen that happen many times.

No, I hate Thorn intellectualizing something that really shouldn't be. You're not writing some ambiguous universe with tons of morally grey factions and goals. You're writing a Dragon Ball sequel. General Red wanted to conquer the world and get taller, it's that simple, it's that goofy. No bullshit added. I can squint my eyes and accept the idea of Gast having a "diplomat" companion who does some of the thinking, but not when it comes to the forefront of such an obviously black and white situation. No Thorn, you're not the guy you think you are. This scene is stupid.

I'm sure you can try to explain why he'd still react like that after being attacked by one of these androids and seeing Gast almost die to them, even when one of Gast's good friends is explaining they're bad news and asking for Gast's help. I'm sure you can tweak things enough to defend Thorn being a dumb piece of shit here. The question is, why would you? Why should he act like that in the first place? Just to highlight this fetish for morally grey space wars? General Red just wanted to get taller, man. And that was good.

Explain to me what was goofy about King Piccolo Saga, Saiyan Saga, Namek Saga, Android/Cell Saga and half of Buu Saga because I think I might've missed it.

Like, what does Red have to do with anything here?

Red, as in the Red Ribbon, has everything to do with how this arc started. I know Gero isn't Red, but it still feels incredibly contrived to shoehorn in this attempt at moral ambiguity/"but both sides??" in a situation that is so clearly and obviously black and white.

Hell, I'd have accepted it if Thorn and Gast didn't almost get killed by these guys 5 minutes ago AND if Krillin wasn't a good friend of Gast. Then, and only then, you would have a seemingly ambiguous situation where MAYBE the killer androids aren't so bad and it's actually the plucky resistance underdogs who wanted to do bad things. (I'm being charitable here).

But when you consider the points I mentioned above then it's very obvious the situation is forcing its way into pretending to be ambiguous when it's absolutely not, because the writers really love the concept of it in general but didn't think enough about implementing it correctly.

I love the comedy on this page by the way. It's a really nice callback to minor manga characters, powerlevels nitpicking aside it feels appropriate to see these guys here.... But then the page shifts towards this serious "muh morally gray space wars" idea and the tone clashes with the comedy.

Still a good chapter so far and I really enjoy what they did with Gast (hell, I think all the Gast chapters are at least good, sometimes OUTSTANDING. Good job). Just pointing out my view on this one element, but I think it'll move somewhere else soon enough. 1 Replie(s)

Kururun 21 12月

This was good so far but I hate this page. Not because we have a group of underdogs who shouldn't be able to fight any of the androids, powerlevels don't matter and will be discarded at any time if needed, whether it's Dragon Ball, Super or Multiverse. We've seen that happen many times.

No, I hate Thorn intellectualizing something that really shouldn't be. You're not writing some ambiguous universe with tons of morally grey factions and goals. You're writing a Dragon Ball sequel. General Red wanted to conquer the world and get taller, it's that simple, it's that goofy. No bullshit added. I can squint my eyes and accept the idea of Gast having a "diplomat" companion who does some of the thinking, but not when it comes to the forefront of such an obviously black and white situation. No Thorn, you're not the guy you think you are. This scene is stupid.

I'm sure you can try to explain why he'd still react like that after being attacked by one of these androids and seeing Gast almost die to them, even when one of Gast's good friends is explaining they're bad news and asking for Gast's help. I'm sure you can tweak things enough to defend Thorn being a dumb piece of shit here. The question is, why would you? Why should he act like that in the first place? Just to highlight this fetish for morally grey space wars? General Red just wanted to get taller, man. And that was good. 1 Replie(s)

Kururun 10 11月

Ok je suis mort de rire. J'espère les voir un de ces quatres dans la trame principale.

Minicomic page 132

Kururun 19 9月 2024

Catox was saying:

Kururun disait : "Il suffit d'aller 10 fois plus vite et d'envoyer une grosse attaque !"

J'aime pas ce style de dialogue. Comparons ça à Vegeta qui décrit que Goku va perdre contre Cell : "Cell a 1 ou 2 longueurs d'avance sur Kakarot". Figuratif. Pas littéral, pas numérisé, pas scientifique.
Si je te dis que tu as une lecture trop premier degré, je ne parle pas d'angle ou de température.
"aller dix fois plus vite" est une expression approximativement jamais utilisée littéralement.

Evidemment, mais c'est quand même une expression très chiffrée, très rationalisée, très "fanfic Dragon Ball" écrite par des gens qui ont passé du temps à débattre de l'écart de puissance nécessaire pour oneshot quelqu'un ou des multiplicateurs de transfo.

A l'ancienne, ça aurait été "c'est bizarre, Gast devrait être assez puissant pour le battre avec la force brute" ou quelque chose du genre.

DB Multiverse page 2393

Kururun 19 9月 2024

Vost was saying:

Je ne comprends pas la haine que se prend Bra dés qu'elle ouvre la bouche... ou pas pour le coup ^^

Ah non attention je critique pas Bra parce qu'elle se demande pourquoi Gast gagne pas, je dis juste que le dialogue gagnerait beaucoup à être moins nerd/fanfic-isé. Il ferait beaucoup plus naturel et DB en tout cas.

Sinnamary was saying:

" Sans rigoler
Je pratique le MMA depuis 7 ans et la boxe en parallèle depuis 6 ans, je pourrai.

Il suffit d'aller 10 fois plus vite et d'envoyer une grosse attaque, a la moindre erreur le Janemba est fini

T'auras toujours des puceaux d'ici pour penser que c'est impossible. Rien n'est impossible avec de la volonté déjà les amis
N'importe qui un minimum entraîné peut vaincre un Janemba avec un kikoha déjà. A main nue c'est pas forcément plus compliqué ça demande juste de la technique. "

Incroyable. 10/10.

DB Multiverse page 2393

Kururun 18 9月 2024

"Il suffit d'aller 10 fois plus vite et d'envoyer une grosse attaque !"

J'aime pas ce style de dialogue. Comparons ça à Vegeta qui décrit que Goku va perdre contre Cell : "Cell a 1 ou 2 longueurs d'avance sur Kakarot". Figuratif. Pas littéral, pas numérisé, pas scientifique. 3 Replie(s)

DB Multiverse page 2393

Kururun 6 9月 2024

Andy was saying:

Apart from that... If Vegeta was a good guy, why was he send to hell? Good guys don't go to hell.

That's not how it works dude. I can have a change of heart but if I killed 1200000000 people I'd probably still go to hell despite my heart being good.

The fact is that Vegeta sacrificed his life.. Twice.
At this point, DBM states "he's still evil, that's why Vegeto is like that" and you're stating "yep! Still going to hell."

20 minutes later, Vegeta says "Man, I understand your strength now Kakarot. You always want to surpass yourself. You're the best!" and suddenly, apparently, according to DBM, this is the tipping scale, NOW Vegeta isn't evil and according to you, NOW he's not going to hell.

Yeah, no. 3 Replie(s)

Kururun 6 9月 2024

HungryAlien was saying:

Et oui Vegeto est au bout de sa vie actuellement. Il enchaîne défaite sur défaite, n'a plus rien à manger, est complètement vidé, n'a même pas pu profiter du tournoi après son combat contre Broly à cause d'un coup bas, et ca commence à se ressentir sur son attitude. Il est juste agressif avec tout le monde maintenant, même la personne qui lui a sauvé la vie 4 pages plus tôt.

C'est pas les 500 défaites consécutives qui le mettent comme ça c'est le scénarium qui décide que Vegeto doit lâcher des "indices" qu'il est méchant et pathétique dès que possible, même 4 pages après avoir été coupé en deux par un mec que Yamcha a fumé.

Kururun 5 9月 2024

And once again, I call on all people who have a problem with DBM Vegetto's portrayal to read the U16 Novel. You will get a much better understanding of how DBZ Vegetto was able to evolve into the DBM Vegetto we know.

It's obviously possible to write reasons to explain such a big character overhaul. But the events and reasons being what they are and not something else is completely arbitrary: it'd also be possible to write a funny optimistic story about a post Buu Vegeto living a nice life and everyone moving on from what happened fast. I mean, Goku had already died and Vegeta did a few days ago as well. I'd argue that'd be closer to Toriyama's storytelling than the whole drama stuff we got, but I'm losing track here.

The point is that just because Salagir laid out reasons for this doesn't mean this is a narratively or technically convincing interpretation of the character. And personally I'm not going to be convinced by a novel where Vegeto accidentally teleports into Gohan's bedroom as he's about to make love to Videl and it's treated seriously. That's just not what DB should be for me.

However, I don't understand why the theory is always brought up that a fusion that does not defuse is supposed to portray the exact character traits that his fusion parts had for the rest of his entire life without any change whatsoever. Is that somewhere in canon that Vegetto in DBZ, theoretically speaking, if he had never split up, would have behaved like he did in the fight against Buu until the end of his life? Whether 1 day passes, a month, a year or a century, supposedly Vegetto is never supposed to change no matter what would have happened after Buu? Is this a fusion-exclusive thing? Because nobody wonders why Saiyan-Arc Vegeta doesn't behave like Saiyan-Arc Vegeta after years.

Why is it so extremely important that Vegetto of all people should always have the exact character traits we saw in his very last on-screen appearance in DBZ? No one complains (ever so loudly) that U4 Super Buu doesn't behave exactly like he did in his last appearance in DBZ, or U3 Bardock, or U8 Ginyu, or U13 Raditz.

Vegeta's character was developed slowly over the course of 3 arcs and only at the very end did he get his big moment. He got punished for his wrongs almost everytime. If Vegeta had turned good between Freeza and Cell and we'd been told to read a weird novel with mismatched tone to fill the gap, people would have complained.
It's also harder to accept when the development is in this direction. People might be more accepting of an antagonist becoming a better person to join the cast than they'd be of a heroic figure symbolizing the best of the two main characterd being deconstructed into an arrogant loser. All change isn't made equal.
Kakarot is an example of a "good" character being turned bad and it's... Fine. People like him. His story feels far more natural than Vegeto's.

Buu was already becoming smarter with each absorptions, it's not a stretch to think he'd become smarter. Same for Raditz behaving himself around his buddies.

Kururun 5 9月 2024

WukongTheMighty was saying: DrewSaga was saying: WukongTheMighty was saying: Kururun was saying: This Vegeto bullshit isn't convincing. Guy got cut in half 10 pages ago and now he's talking like that?

Yeah no. Vegeto is written isn't written in a "what would this character do?" way, but rather "how can we push our agenda and pre established conclusions about him?"

It will never be convincing. You're setting him up as an asshole by turning him into the narrative punching bag. Not only is he not Vegeto (but a weird and silly interpretation of him), but you'll find that readers will root FOR HIM when he starts beating up everyone.

ANON was saying: And he's also a fusion of two people, both of them in their 40s to 50s. What people should be taking into consideration is he's a fusion of Goku, who is extremely childish and innonce, and Vegeta, who is hopelessly arrogrant. Those two traits are a dangerous mix.

Goku isn't childish actually. He's easily one of the most mature and composed characters in the manga. I don't think anyone would think Vegeto would become like that based on the actual manga, the numbers just don't add up.

Uhm, akshually, Bejita had been at most like an hour from his "Kakarot, you're number one!" Speech so Bejitto is made out of bad Vegeta.
Please disregard Vegeta's sacrifice being his turning point to full hero.
Fusion man bad.
Etc.

Wrong, Vegeta never fully became good until the fight with Goku vs Kid Buu. He held anger and resentment when Baba brought him to Earth before Goku fused with him. Vegeta was even gonna be condemned to hell. Vegeta changed only slightly after blowing himself up.

Absolutely insane headcanon.
Vegeta's "You're number 1" speech is an effect of him becoming good, not the cause.
He was already "good" by the time of him blowing himself up, that's the point.
He was annoyed at Goku for hiding 3 but didn't act up that much all considered. He was more than willing to give up existing entirely as an independent being to save his loved ones, too.
How evil.

No he wasn't. He was sure on the right path to become good, but at the point of Final Explosion he was not going to make it with Yemma and would be going to HFIL without a body. Or maybe Piccolo simply underestimated his actions, who knows.

Vegeta still going to hell is mandatory for his actions to have weight. One sacrifice, no matter how noble, can't erase a lifetime of pride and murder.
Vegeta being acknowledged as good by the Dragon Balls is a way for him to catch a break eventually. That doesn't mean he wouldn't go to hell at that point. All it needs is Porunga to think he's alright in that moment.

To believe Vegeta didn't become a good man when he laid out his life for his family, rival, world... But that he did a few hours later the moment he acknowledged his rival's strength, is beyond delusional.
In fact, Vegeta gave his life twice, if we're counting the Potalas.

It's convoluted fake logic that's trying to find reasons for an evil Vegeto, not who the character is. It's trying to reach a pre established goal by twisting things. Just like the current page is trying to reiterate FUSION MAN BAD regardless of how he should feel from what happened 5 pages earlier. 1 Replie(s)

Kururun 5 9月 2024

This Vegeto bullshit isn't convincing. Guy got cut in half 10 pages ago and now he's talking like that?

Yeah no. Vegeto is written isn't written in a "what would this character do?" way, but rather "how can we push our agenda and pre established conclusions about him?"

It will never be convincing. You're setting him up as an asshole by turning him into the narrative punching bag. Not only is he not Vegeto (but a weird and silly interpretation of him), but you'll find that readers will root FOR HIM when he starts beating up everyone.

ANON was saying:

And he's also a fusion of two people, both of them in their 40s to 50s. What people should be taking into consideration is he's a fusion of Goku, who is extremely childish and innonce, and Vegeta, who is hopelessly arrogrant. Those two traits are a dangerous mix.

Goku isn't childish actually. He's easily one of the most mature and composed characters in the manga. I don't think anyone would think Vegeto would become like that based on the actual manga, the numbers just don't add up. 2 Replie(s)

Kururun 4 9月 2024

Faut arrêter de chier sur Vegeto un moment mdr

Kururun 21 8月 2024

Monster was saying:

Is that Mary Sue in the last panel?

I don't think Zen Buu or Bra have that kind of hair, though. 1 Replie(s)

DB Multiverse page 2381

Kururun 21 8月 2024

On dirait que la plotline des cyborgs est finie. Pourquoi pas.

A part ça, le toupet de faire des blagues en dernière case avec Mary Sue alors que DBM en a plusieurs.

DB Multiverse page 2381

Kururun 19 8月 2024

Aspres was saying:

Kururun disait : Non DB n'était pas bourré de références, elles étaient rares et surtout quasi jamais textuelles et directes comme ça. Elles s'intégraient à l'histoire plutôt que de la remplacer. Elles étaient aussi plus subtiles que "hxh reference" au coin de la case.

Rares ?

DB = Référence au voyage en occident
Goku = Référence a l'époque Sengoku « époque des provinces en guerre »
Les 7 boules de cristal sont une référence a Sun Wonkung qui entreprend un voyage en occident à la recherche d’écriture sacrée de Bouddha, et revient les présenter à l’empereur après quatorze ans de quête.

Déjà, juste dans le titre et la première page de Dragon Ball, il y a 3 références

Je ne les ferais pas toutes, mais il y en a partout, et elles sont tout, sauf rares :
Jacky Choun = Jacky Chan
Krilin = crâne rasé des moines bouddhistes
N°8 = Frankenstein
Sergent Metallic = Terminator
Suppaman = Superman
Général Red = Méchant de James Bond (SPECTRE)
Général blue = Officier Nazi
Homme Garou = Loup Garou
yajirobéé = jouet, petit pantin avec de longs bras en balancier
Yamcha = Nom qui provient du chinois Yum Cha. Il s'agit de petites bouchées (nems, beignets de crevettes, wontons, toasts crevettes/sésame...) prises à l'heure du thé.

Quand on assez de culture (ce n'est pas mon cas), on trouve des références a tout et a n'importe quoi, partout dans Dragon Ball, et surtout des références a la bouffe dans les noms des personnages !

Déjà expliqué. Réutiliser un design dans un processus créatif c'est peut-être une référence mais pas le même type. Pareil pour réutiliser des noms. J'avais aucun problème avec Xeniloum et les noms de ce style par exemple.
Tu peux lire DB sans avoir aucune idée de ces références si tu avais réussi à rater ces œuvres et tu ne remarquerais rien. Tu peux pas lire DBM sans te bouffer le "et ÇA c'est une référence à BIDULE de pop culture". En outre, les rares moments qui sont là pour montrer les persos qui interagissent sans être pour infodumper ou autre sont souvent utilisés pour y foutre une référence. 1 Replie(s)

Kururun 19 8月 2024

Medar was saying:

(pour le reste je vais pas rentrer dans le débat point par point et référence par référence comme je l'ai dis ce serait trop HS juste... c'est pas un avis, c'est un fait, y a PLEIN de réf dans DB, si tu veux le nier frontalement c'est ton problème ma foi ^^)

Mon commentaire est assez clair, le point qui rend ça nul n'est pas l'existence d'inspirations esthétiques/culturelles voire de references, le problème est dans la manière dont elles se traduisent dans l'histoire, leur fréquence, et la manière dont elles remplacent la substance.

Toriyama a pas dessiné Goku et Freezer en train de se battre au sabre laser, bien qu'il aimait Star Wars, parce qu'il savait qu'il y avait un endroit et un moment pour tout. Donc à la place, littéralement toutes les couvertures de chapitre sont... Ben Goku et Freezer qui font leurs trucs.

Faut être aveugle ou de très mauvaise foi pour prétendre que c'est pareil dans DBM.

Kururun 18 8月 2024

En fait, il n'ont pas tort. Dragon Ball est littéralement bourré de référence. Star Wars en tête :

Quelques exemples qui me viennent en tête :
Star Wars : Le palais de Kami, c'est la cité des Nuages. Le module pour soigner les soldats de Freezer, est la même chose qui soigne Luke dans l'épisode 5 (cuve Bakta).

Sérieusement ? Star Wars a inventé les grosses plateformes volantes dans le ciel et les cuves de régénération, au point où toute utilisation de celles ci est une référence ?

Juste... Non. On ne sait pas l'intention de Toriyama quand il a dessiné ces choses là et s'il était inspiré par SW (qu'il aimait) mais dans tous les cas ces objets là existent en tant que tel dans l'univers, ce ne sont pas des porte étendards d'une autre série. C'est le palais de Kami et la cuve de régénération.

D'ailleurs, dans cette case, on voit plein de ref à Star wars :
https://i.imgur.com/FyBOsTY.png
L'épée de lumière de Vegeto qui est une ref au "light saber" des Jedi.
Les voitures volantes de la Capsule Corp qui sont des landspeeder.

Ton image est cassée. Pour l'épée de lumière c'est juste complètement faux, contrairement à plus haut là c'est juste complètement différent bien au delà de s'il s'est approprié. Pour les voitures volantes ça ne convainct pas non plus, il a dessiné énormément de voitures et véhicules différents, bien sûr que certaines doivent ressembler à des choses existantes et peut-être ou peut-être pas que la référence est voulue, mais elle n'est jamais explicitée si elle est réelle, à nouveau. Ce sont des voitures volantes, pas des punchlines qui consistent en "tu reconnais ça ?"

Terminator : Le Sergent Metallique de la tour du Muscle, dans Dragon Ball est littéralement le T800. C16 est également calqué sur l'acteur de Terminator (et agit comme le T800, à vouloir tuer Goku).

Oui, pour le coup c'est sans ambiguïté, le design de ce robot est une référence. Mais il s'intègre à l'histoire. C'est juste un des robots du Ruban Rouge, il fait son travail en tant qu'ennemi.

Le retour dans le temps qui créer des temporalités alternatives est également le même principe que dans la saga Terminator. (Ca aurait pu fonctionner différemment comme la saga Retour vers le Futur).
Trunks a la coupe de cheveux du gamin de Terminator 2.

Wtf ? Toutes les œuvres de fiction dont les voyages temporels fonctionnent en nouvel univers sont des références ?????? Les coupes de cheveux sont brevetées aussi ??

Et sinon en vrac :
Bubble, le singe de Kaio est une ref à Bubble de Michael Jackson.
La technique de l'homme saoul vient du film de Jackie Chan : Drunken Master. D'ailleurs Tortue Génial prend le nom de "Jackie Chun" pendant le tournoi quand il l'utilise :D

Marrant pour Bubbles, c'est très possible oui vu sa manière de trouver les noms. Le reste c'est des tropes de kung fu. Je pense qu'on peut s'accorder sur la différence entre Gast et XXI qui cosplayent SW et l'identité secrète de Tortue Géniale qui est un jeu de mot sur Jackie Chan et qui utilise une technique de baston qui fait partie de cette culture. 1 Replie(s)

WukongTheMighty was saying:

Kururun 18 8月 2024

Is this a joke? All that buildup and seemingly killing Vegito for... a nothingburger?
This is too much.

I disagree on that one. It seemed kinda obvious that the point was to damage Vegeto emotionally rather than outright killing him. 1 Replie(s)

Kururun 18 8月 2024

Allez cette fois j'ai bien rigolé. En temps normal je ronfle sur ces blagues mais c'est très drôle ici. Chose importante, Vegeto a pas récupéré toute sa force.

Medar was saying:

La saga Freezer toute entière est une réf à Star Wars. Les Cyborgs c'est une réf à Terminator. Goku c'est un superman inversé, et Piccolo a littéralement la même origine story que superman.

Oui sauf qu'en fait si tu réfléchis 2 secondes tu vois qu'à aucun moment Toriyama ne dessine Goku en Superman, Freezer avec des sabres laser ou les cyborgs en position terminator ... Il y a des idées de narration et des thèmes intéressants qui sont utilisés, pas des références forcées qui remplacent toute substance par du brisage de 4ème mur.

(Et si tu réfléchis 10 secondes au lieu de 2, tu te rends compte que même à ce niveau là ça ne marche pas, Goku - pré DBS - n'est pas Superman mais plutôt Sun Wukong, Freezer n'a RIEN de Star Wars sauf si Star Wars a inventé les voyages spatiaux et qu'en mettre dans ton histoire c'est faire une référence)

Medar was saying:

Sérieusement, ce message m'a vraiment fait rire, bien sûr que si DB était très lié à la pop culture, bon sang, et regorgeait de liens à des sagas comme SW xD

Et j'suis pas sûr que juste dessiner les belles bagnoles qu'il aimait soit plus lié à l'histoire que de faire des couvertures-références xD

Non DB n'était pas bourré de références, elles étaient rares et surtout quasi jamais textuelles et directes comme ça. Elles s'intégraient à l'histoire plutôt que de la remplacer. Elles étaient aussi plus subtiles que "hxh reference" au coin de la case.

Les bagnoles n'étaient pas vraiment là pour se contextualiser par rapport à l'histoire mais elles ont fait de Toriyama une légende. A chaque discussion sur lui, y aura au moins un "j'aurais aimé voir un manga de bagnoles par lui comme il aimait". C'est plus poussé que de dessiner les persos avec des sabres laser, et c'est devenu partie intégrante de l'iconographie Dragon Ball grâce à une exécution excellente. 2 Replie(s)

Kururun 18 8月 2024

kulado was saying:

Cm
Kururun disait : Super, une référence à Star Wars... Ça manquait dans DBM il faut dire on en a jamais vu

Punaise, c'est triste d'être aussi aigri, franchement je comprends pas, tu me fais de la peine ^^"

Tu peux me traiter d'aigri si tu veux (c'est valide comme commentaire ça ?), moi je vois juste que j'aimerais voir DBM voler de ses propres ailes quand il s'agit de montrer de la créativité plutôt que de faire des références en permanence (et toujours des références basiques, merci pour Star Wars Dark Souls South Park et Hunter x Hunter, on ronfle).

Question : si Toriyama avait fait de toutes ses couvertures de chapitres une référence à de la pop culture de base, plutôt que ses magnifiques images qui décrivaient la situation, mettaient les perso dans des situations uniques intéressantes, ou juste des bagnoles trop trop belles, aurait-on autant aimé DB ? Pour moi la réponse est claire. Et même les rares références de Toriyama étaient plus recherchées et sympa.

Je parlerais moins si la surabondance des refs ne s'étendait pas jusqu'à l'histoire principale mais vraiment on en mange partout c'est beaucoup. Et là on parle du méchant principal qui a été build up et teasé sur 2000 pages... Ne mériterait-t-il pas une couverture qui ne soit pas une référence à Star Wars un moment ? 1 Replie(s)

DB Multiverse page 2379

Kururun 17 8月 2024

More Star Wars references... Wow...

DB Multiverse page 2379

Kururun 17 8月 2024

Super, une référence à Star Wars... Ça manquait dans DBM il faut dire on en a jamais vu 1 Replie(s)

DB Multiverse page 2379

Kururun 16 8月 2024

Ambroise was saying:

Merci pour vos commentaires! Ça a été un chapitre très intéressant à faire, et qui à titre personnel m'a appris beaucoup de choses.
Comme cela a été pointé, il aurait en effet dû être placé avant celui d'IKL, c'était ce qui était prévu, mais il y a dû y avoir un problème logistique. En tout cas cela vous aura bien fait débattre, et c'est finalement aussi pour ça qu'on vient, pour discuter ensemble de cet univers qu'on aime bien!
J'espère vous refaire un chapitre un de ces jours, à plus!

Merci pour les dessins, c'était costaud

WukongTheMighty was saying:

Kururun 15 8月 2024

Ouv was saying: > No reason to lie...?
DBM is non-profit.
The story will be the same no matter f it had 5000 or 500000000 readers.
The number of readers is irrelevant to what DBM is.
Of course, the Team is happy about having so many readers, but this is more of a reward than a motivation.

> Hold on a second, that's not quite true, is it? Are you really telling me that DBM would be as successful at getting Guest Artists (...)
The artist are the ones that contact Salagir to draw Special Chapters.
You would have to ask them why they want to draw for DBM.
But from the ones I met, it was always because they love DB and DBM and want to be a part of it. While the numbers of readers are a bonus, getting more visibility is usually not their main motivation :)

> if rather than there being 500,000 readers every month there were say 100,000? 50,000? 30,000? I'm extremely skeptical of this 500,000 figure, because NOTHING is that consistent over that long a period. Especially when the claim is that DBM reached the peak of its popularity and just stayed there for a decade straight.
That's what it is. What would you want me to tell you anything else that the truth ? :/

> But basically, what you're saying is that there is no real evidence as to the 500,000 figure other than Salagir announcing it.
The Core team are close friends for more that ten years, why wouldn't we trust him ???
I mean CLOSE friends !
So no, I won't bother Salagir with that because I have no objective reason to.

It's not like things would be different in the Team if the numbers were fluctuating.
And if they would, we would tell you, because that's what we do.
We always answers the readers when we can.

Like I do now. :)
All those words and you didn't end up saying a great deal to convince me as to anything. I will continue to refuse a statistical impossibility like something reaching its most popular point and stagnating there without ever losing or gaining any readers beyond that point, especially with the controversial chapters that DBM has had in the past ten years.
without actual evidence showing such, it's impossible for me to believe that 500,000 claim.

It's possible though. It'd just mean clicks don't reflect popularity and are a more static metric due to other factors that are less time sensitive like bots. I think this is the real answer here. 1 Replie(s)

Kururun 15 8月 2024

500 000 clicks isn't quite the same as 500 000 readers. It's good that this number stayed static, but that doesn't mean everything is all perfect. In truth it's not really surprising to see a loss in engagement as time passes, especially in a long run fanfiction, but it's probably good to reflect on what angers the viewers and why. It's not the viewers' story, it's the DBM team's... But the viewers certainly have some appropriate and legitimate feedback for the DBM team and I'm not sure most of it gets through.

Kururun 14 8月 2024

Aspres was saying:

Parce que prendre des décisions débiles fait partie intégrante des scénarios de Dragon Ball, car sinon, il n'y aurait pas d'histoire

Oui ... Dans Dragon Ball, quand les trucs passent sans essayer de t'expliquer la cohérence de la gravitation relative, du soleil qui tape plus fort que les Kamehamehas et autres moments sciences.

Dans DBM, faire des trucs sans aucun sens pour arranger le scénario ça passe plus. 1 Replie(s)

Kururun 14 8月 2024

Je trouve que c'est écrit de manière extrêmement amateure pour le simple plaisir de la subversion.

Le teamup Kakarot Radditz était intéressant. Il est ruiné pour une simple subversion "hahaha ils se sont fait oneshot"

Le chapitre entier était plus ou moins inutile pour le simple plaisir d'une subversion "ahah! C'était une vision car ça a commencé par un effet visuel rigolo"

Le seul mérite de ce chapitre, à part les dessins, c'est qu'il n'existe pas finalement mdr.

Kururun 14 8月 2024

This page really embodies what's wrong with DBM writing.

SUBVERT AT ALL COSTS. This seems to be the writers thought process. Set up a satisfying team up the previous page. Offscreen it for the sake of SUBVERTED EXPECTATIONS! Same for Raditz' Mystic, he powers up... Next page, SUBVERTED! He's actually weak.

And now... An entire chapter. A full fucking chapter ending with parts in another universe. All of it is reduced to nothing, and why? Because we had a groovy visual effect at the start that seemingly indicated the Kaioshin's nonsensical vision.

I'm happy this entire subplot wasn't wasted with the way this chapter turned out... But seeing how the writers do things, I'm sure it'll just be wasted another way. 1 Replie(s)

Kururun 11 8月 2024

If they get oneshotted this will be terrible. If not it's really neat

DB Multiverse page 2377

Kururun 11 8月 2024

Ambroise was saying:

AberrantDesign was saying: Back to that Space Politics show though, imagine Cui trying to start a union without being noticed by anyone with a higher power level
I love these story concepts :) you can already feel the Toriyama humor oozing from them^^

Agreed. I'm not against any of these ideas, but I think they work more for spinoffs than the main DB storyline obviously.

By the way, compliments for the art. I think it's a really solid take on the "DB but with the artist's personal artstyle" concept, it translates well to this.

Kururun 9 8月 2024

Ok... En quoi c'est censé faire partie de la vision stratégique du Kaioshin ?

DB Multiverse page 2376

Kururun 9 8月 2024

C'est quand même assez extrême d'en être au point où on espère que le chapitre entier était un rêve pour pouvoir annuler ses conséquences sur l'histoire. Ca me rappelle la fin du premier chapitre Goku vs Vegeta où on croyait au oneshot, heureusement que ça a été changé (je sais pas si le fait d'avoir ajouté un deuxième chapitre entier de tape était prévu depuis le début ou si c'est un choix qui a été fait en voyant les réactions mais dans tous les cas ça a sauvé le truc, heureusement)

Kururun 9 8月 2024

Vegito1090 was saying: People above me seemed to just be taking the "bad air" argument at face value, not knowing the official reason for the Potara fusion not being permanent.
Oh yeah, we know that Bad Air was never outright confirmed and that it was finally addressed in Super, we were just discussing whether the fault lies on Toriyama that fan projects have to come up with their own explanation since he declined to actually explain it for years. "Bad Air" was specifically brought up to compare and contrast with the Kais having a Defusion technique. The point being illustrated was that even if DBM's version takes a bit of thinking to iron out the wrinkles with that version, it's still a million times better than "I guess Buu naturally undoes Potara fusion, but not Namekian or Metamoran fusion"

Again, that's not how it works. Something happening randomly and accidentally without a definitive explanation and only a theory that "the weird majin magical body had this effect on this other magical device" (a decent explanation, mind you, this is absolutely fine) just works, especially in the context of Dragon Ball. And it works way better than this "stabilized fusion, muh kaioshin powers" bullshit that turns everyone around into absolute dumbasses.

The fanfictions don't HAVE TO explain it. In fact they really should NOT come with their own convoluted "better" explanations. By doing so, they're moving the situation from "alright explanation in a context where it doesn't matter a lot" to "bad explanation in a context where the explanation matters a lot now". It's a double downgrade and if fanfiction authors go there it's all their fault. When writing the Cell arc, Toriyama didn't try to explain space politics from Freeza, and when writing the Buu arc he didn't make it about the androids infinite energy and how it works or whatever. 1 Replie(s)

Kururun 7 8月 2024

So..... Is it a vision or not? Because I really hope it is, but sadly it looks like it's not...

Honestly, this is the source material's fault that the DBM writers are having to clean up. They left the question of "Why did Vegito defuse?" unanswered all the way to the end of Z and into Super. "Potara can be undone by a Kai before it stabilizes" isn't a perfect answer, but Toriyama ignored it for years, the writers are trying their best to patch the holes here. It'd be nice if we could retroactively use the "Only permanent with a Kai" explanation, but they already used this as the explanation ages ago, it's done. I respect the mods for respecting the canon they established

That's not how it works.
Toriyama has the right to give a random explanation "bad air" and not bother more than that with it. It's not THAT serious. You don't need to examine the rules like it's science or something. "Bad air" is just fine.
You CAN try to rationalize and quantify the rules, or the powerlevels, or anything. But this has two effects: first, it distracts from the main plot (because now it's not just about "Goku and Vegeta are dealing with Buu! What's going to happen?", it's also about "why does the Potara fusion works like that? What's with the Kaioshin and their power to defuse it?"). Second, it means your rules NEED to make sense. Now they're not just there as part of the latest plot twist and turn for more exciting fights and drama, they need to stand up on their own. They have to be good from a purely theoretical, worldbuilding level, and inconsistencies will absolutely destroy this.

DBM's new "Kaioshin can just go poof with his hands to undo the fusion" concept utterly fails at that. In multiple ways: this betrays the characters (old Kaioshin wouldn't be silent about all of this before the fusion or after), the consistency (he didn't do anything about U16 Vegeto) and the overall theme of this subplot ("this is a fusion that cannot be undone! This is a big sacrifice the characters are making! .... well, it would be except it's just the Kaioshin not telling them anything, lmao" - this is different from the "bad air" accident by the way, bad air ended up being a weird coincidence they couldn't foresee, but Kaioshin was supposed to KNOW this wasn't a permanent sacrifice if done right). 3 Replie(s)

Kururun 7 8月 2024

I'd normally tell people to stop being so unhinged when it comes to discussing multipliers and other random stupid shit like this. This was never the point. Toriyama never gave a shit or a single thought about it.

But that's what DBM does. I wish "Maximum Kaioken" policy would be applied to anything. Keep things blurrier. Don't give us the results of fights before they even happened. We don't need to know about "tiers" and all that shit. Stop with the numbers, they don't compute, they will never compute and that's a good thing. 1 Replie(s)

Kururun 6 8月 2024

I think at that point, the fusion must have already stabilized. Hard to say though since we don't have any official metrics for how long until the fusion is stable. We only know the upper bounds are around the duration of the Super Buu vs Vegito fight
As for why Elder Kai didn't defuse Vegito, I could've sworn he said it was sacrilegious to undo a Potara fusion when Kibito Kai went to get themself unfused with the Namekian Dragon Balls. He probably could've, but he didn't want to

It doesn't work because if there was a way to undo it, the old Kaioshin would have said so. In fact the old Kaioshin thought Vegeto was playing around for too long and could've won very fast, so why not tell the guy he GAVE HIS LIFE FOR that if he finishes Buu in less than a minute, or two, or five, he can unfuse him and everyone ends up fine?

This whole "it was too fast" excuse will just never work because the fusion can kill Buu in less time than it takes to stabilize, Kaioshin knows that, and Kaioshin will never state it. It's an issue in multiple levels: even if Kaioshin thought the fusion wouldn't be fast enough to finish Buu before the time limit, he'd still probably tell them about it. Just in case.

Kururun 6 8月 2024

Néa Archi was saying:

CHIT❂X disait : C'est con, il était stylé Kakaditz...Heureusement qu'on a eu un chapitre lui étant dédié alors :D

Le problème étant qu'il l'a passé à jeter des Kikohas et s'en prendre dans la gueule en faisant le fou. Finalement c'était plus "Kakarot qui aime le thé" que Kakaditz. S'il avait eu des vrais moments de sauvagerie conclusifs (par exemple s'il avait vraiment fini par fumer son Vegeta au lieu de faire le con) ou des moments non pas sauvages mais intéressants en profondeur (réfléchir à comment gagner et les conséquences de ce qu'il fait... un vrai combat à mort quoi) ou du développement de sa personnalité au delà de "Kakarot déchaîné", on aurait eu notre plein mais là je trouve que c'est une occasion un peu manquée alors que les dessins étaient très réussis pourtant.

Kururun 6 8月 2024

They established way earlier in the story that Fusion can be undone by a Kai before it stabilizes, that's the DBM lore reason for why Vegito unfused. This is most likely just a dream sequence judging from the earlier pages anyway, the plot thread most likely isn't used up yet

It was a weird Kaioshin-in-Buu thing, this is the first time we see a Kaioshin do it on purpose like that, and it makes both U16 and U18 nonsensical because that means old Kaioshin would've told Goku to finish it fast so he could defuse (and he'd have defused Vegeto in U16) 3 Replie(s)

Kururun 6 8月 2024

I don't see how "lame lame lame" isn't legitimate criticism. Would it be better with "Hey guys I always like that you make this free comic for us and all that but this outcome is really lame"? They say the same thing in substance.

Status quo being so godlike in DBM is quite an issue. It's not always the end of the world of course, if the fight was less bland and established stakes for Raditz better it could've worked even with the fusion being cancelled at the end, but this fight was basically the DBS ATATATATATA spam for 10 pages until things get undone.

Was it really worth concluding this plot thread like that? It seems this was mostly done just so the writers could dump this "oh by the way, Kaioshins can cancel the fusion before it stabilizes", but that's not how it works. Mechanical lore doesn't add anything to the story on its own. 1 Replie(s)

Kururun 5 8月 2024

Salagir was saying:

Fusion is permanent, but can be broken at the beginning.

Then the old Kaioshin would have said "we can undo the fusion if you beat Buu in less than 5 minutes" or something. I don't see the point of this lore addition about unstable fusions, Kaioshin powers to undo the fusion and all of that if they break the original story.