Grash was saying: 1. Gohan did not give up after losing goku to raditz
2. Gohan did not give up after watching all the namekiens die
3. Gohan ALMOST gave up after losing goku to cell but still pulled through
4. Gohan DID NOT give up against super boo after all his friends and the whole earth got eaten
1. Goku was coming back from the DBs, it was obvious and stated.
2. Give up on what? The dragon balls were still here.
3. Dragon balls are there.
4. Easy access to dragon balls.
Anyway, you can't compare (and that's true for the 3 lasts points) being in the middle of a situation and being stranded alone for years on a world where genocide occurs daily.

So Baba herself actually decided to cut the cord. That is actually strange since she herself had zero issue with letting Grandpa Gohan intervene in the world of the living prior to this event. I think it would make more sense if it was Enma that did that but not if it was Baba who has no reason to (except perhaps the fear of Enma sending her to hell, which is really messed up when you think about it).

This page is certainly a strange one because if Baba actually believed what she said she wouldn't have even showed up in the first place. She would have just stayed in Otherworld where she belongs. My theory is that she is afraid that she would get sent to hell by Enma if she actually let the communication continue so she cut the cord out of fear of retaliation because she herself is a dead person meddling in the world of the living. After all, she did change the outcome in terms of Gohan feeling even more hopeless and depressed.

Kururun was saying: Pros:
— Enma has been spared from character assassination

Cons:
— Baba wasn't

#NotMyBaba

Are you serious? Baba might not have been all bad, but she really was a bitch to a good number of people. This wouldn't be the first. I think Baba was a bit nicer with Goku towards the end because she understands what kind of person Goku is going to become so she has a certain level of respect there.

SonkeyDGoofy was saying: "The dead must not interfere with the world of the living," says the dead lady

Yeah I don't think Baba is one to talk there actually since she brought people back from the dead before like with Grandpa Gohan.

Grash was saying: Kururun was saying: Pros:
— Enma has been spared from character assassination

Cons:
— Baba wasn't



#NotMyBaba
^^This^^^

Gohan got character assassinated as well.

1. Gohan did not give up after losing goku to raditz
2. Gohan did not give up after watching all the namekiens die
3. Gohan ALMOST gave up after losing goku to cell but still pulled through
4. Gohan DID NOT give up against super boo after all his friends and the whole earth got eaten

Gohan is not this much of a quitter, plain and simple. His saiyan pride would never let him become a nihilistic, emo high school student.

There is no legitimate reason for this to happen. Baba helped bring goku back for a day in Z and with grandpa gohan. Goku and gohan saving the galaxy from freeza deserves some more credibility than this. This kind of writing oozes depression and nihilism.

Gohan also had people backing him at all of those times too and he had something to fight for (to bring back his friends with the Dragon Balls and to fight to protect the friends and family who were alive, Gohan doesn't have any of this now). Here, Gohan lost the people he cares about, that is definitely gonna change something negative in him, don't know why anyone would be surprised. Gohan isn't Goku in the regard of being able to keep up hope in the darkest of situations. I do think it's off that Gohan says that he would rather die, but I don't think he means it and is just upset about the situation and doesn't have the maturity to cope with it like an adult would try to.

"His saiyan pride would never let him become a nihilistic, emo high school student."

Saiyan "pride" is bullshit. Seriously, Vegeta had "Saiyan Pride" but whimpered like a bitch against Frieza (something Goku didn't do when Frieza had Goku beaten up, but Goku never boasted about Saiyan "pride" and neither did Gohan because it was all just vanity on Vegeta's part, nothing to do with genuine pride). And some good "Saiyan Pride" does the Saiyans when it usually ends in an ass beating that could have easily been avoided. "Saiyan pride" is probably why Gohan is where he is at now and why Vegeta is dead.

Pros:
— Enma has been spared from character assassination

Cons:
— Baba wasn't



#NotMyBaba

Grash was saying: DrewSaga was saying: Grash was saying: DrewSaga was saying: Grash was saying: This is beyond stupid.
1. Gohan has only ever been to one planet that starts with an N so even if Goku gets cut off he should still know the plan
2. Yemma is a clown if he cut this convo off. There is nothing in official Db source material that forbids such a conversation
3. Goku could still use king kai
4. Goku could just telepathically reach out to him himself like when he was talking to king kai against freeza
5. Goku could have told him about the time chamber
6. King Kai could have told him about the chamber
7. Gohan should have been getting zenkais

I hate the future timeline for so many reasons and I think trying to "elaborate on it" will probably make it worse.

Yep, Yemma is a clown for trying to maintain the cosmic balance between the living world and Otherworld (assuming this was him) instead of abusing his power just to save one planet at the expense of the cosmos...in the case of Buu was a credible threat to the whole universe (including Otherworld) so he had to bend the rules there or there would be none. But the Cyborgs #17 and #18 do not pose this threat (though Cell should count in this category when he reached perfection) to the cosmos.

Gohan can't go to space neither so even if Gohan and Bulma knew where New Namek was, they would not have a way of getting there (namely if Goku isn't allowed to intervene).

And Gohan doesn't get any Zenkais since he is already a Super Saiyan.

Otherwise I am surprised that Goku doesn't use King Kai as a medium to communicate with Gohan. My guess is Yemma explicitly forbids Goku from any further interaction with the world of the living which means Goku isn't allowed to gain access through King Kai like he did when he told Roshi to wish him back to life (Yemma likely didn't know that Goku told Roshi to wish him back).

WukongTheMighty was saying: Actually, given what Goku did in that Broly Special way back when, what's stopping Future Goku from just training enough in the Afterlife to achieve 3 and then instagibbing the Androids with a classic telefrag? Hell, Super Saiyan Grade 2 (the bulky Super Vegeta state) would be more than enough!
Is he stupid?
He did it against Broly!

My guess (we will have to see the next few pages) is after this stunt, Enma probably forbade Goku from ever interacting with the world of the living, so this might be it for Goku being able to help Gohan as Goku can't keep manipulating the outcome of the living world as long as he is dead (it's sad but if people in the dead could just keep messing with the world of the living the universe would be thrown in chaos and everything gets messed up, Enma wants to prevent that from happening). King Kai probably chose to honor that as well and told Goku himself that he shouldn't continue meddling (plus there is the Grand Kai and Supreme Kai who likely wouldn't be too thrilled if they found out the North Kai was breaking the rules there).

Kururun was saying: Grash was saying: This is beyond stupid.
1. Gohan has only ever been to one planet that starts with an N so even if Goku gets cut off he should still know the plan
2. Yemma is a clown if he cut this convo off. There is nothing in official Db source material that forbids such a conversation
3. Goku could still use king kai
4. Goku could just telepathically reach out to him himself like when he was talking to king kai against freeza
5. Goku could have told him about the time chamber
6. King Kai could have told him about the chamber
7. Gohan should have been getting zenkais

I hate the future timeline for so many reasons and I think trying to "elaborate on it" will probably make it worse.

Well summarized. I like that Goku is the one to inspire hope in Gohan, that's thematically appropriate. This overexplaining that creates more plotholes than it solves doesn't add anything.

The plot holes already existed in canon, I don't think DBM made that worse by trying to explain it.

"At the expense of the cosmos" is a stretch. Goku stopped an interplanetary tyrant who has murdered billions. Yemma easily owes him many times over and stopping the androids would not unbalance the cosmos. Otherwise evil is actually good. Face it, this is an indefensible plot hole and no amount of jedi mind tricks about balance can fix it.

Fair enough, Goku did save countless lives from Frieza's tyranny, I can't argue that and neither could Yemma (the dude was cheering for Goku when Buu was gonna wipe out all life in the universe and Goku beat him with the Genkidama). Except Goku was alive when he fought and beaten Frieza. In U8, Goku had his chance to fight Frieza and lost and there he wasn't allowed to come back from the dead to fight Frieza. If dead people can keep disrupting the world of the living then what good were the Dragon Balls in bringing people back to life when they can just come back dead. And what would the point of life and death even be for anyone when it's better to just be dead?

"Face it, this is an indefensible plot hole and no amount of jedi mind tricks about balance can fix it. "

What jedi mind tricks? The idea that you can't just "fight evil" however you feel like it without repercussions and that Goku shouldn't tamper with the natural balance of the universe just to do "good" (though I guess Trunks is worse in that regard for time travel, but incidentally it had so little impact on his universe and the infinite multiverse)? Goku died of natural cause and Vegeta floundered as always and the rest of the Z-Fighters didn't stand a chance so it is up to Gohan to beat the Androids as unfair as that is.

Literally this is the mentality of villains, who believe that they can abuse their powers, disrupt the balance of everything including the cosmos in the name of "good". A very common problem in real life too it seems. And although the Androids are a horrible threat to the Earth, they pose no threat to the universe as long as they don't space travel. I have to agree more with your point on Frieza if anything than the Androids where Goku did a great thing for the universe in beating him (though Frieza didn't actually die, but still). However, even Frieza can't conquer something as big as a whole universe, not even close. If Frieza could teleport planet to planet and wipe them out one by one in rapid succession then I agree but only Cell and Buu (I guess U20 Broly too but I mean, that guy is pure BS) fit that bill.

And honestly it is in part Gohan's fault that he can't figure out how to beat the Androids, his U18 counterpart clowned Perfect Cell around and killed Cell after he got a Zenkai and Gohan here couldn't even beat #17 and #18? That's a massive difference in power. In U12, Trunks was a lot weaker than U18 Gohan yet he still beat #17 and #18 easily when he came back and beat Cell after.

To add to this, in the Dragon Ball lore, there is a realm between the world and the living and that is a demon realm (Dabura was the lord of that realm before he became Babidi's tool, it was also where Roshi and Krillin's soul likely went in limbo before Goku met Popo and Kami to bring them back) where chaos and evil reign supreme. In DBM, that dimension was sealed off by the Kaioshins a long time ago just to make sure the rest of the universe is preserved. I suspect that Goku or anyone else meddling too much in the realm of the living while they are dead would cause major cracks in that seal and if the seal is broken, hell get's broken lose in the universe and then the Cyborgs are suddenly less of a problem now.

However in this case I don't think Goku teleporting a couple of times would put a notable dent in that, but if that's Yemma's concern then it's pretty valid as to why he'd put his foot down on the issue and protests against Goku meddling.

Kururun was saying: DrewSaga was saying: The plot holes already existed in canon, I don't think DBM made that worse by trying to explain it.

Yes it's worse now. Because back then it wouldn't be important enough to take time in the story. The author would just handwave it away "everyone died" and never bring up their ways to break the game. We don't know if an explanation could exist, we are allowed to imagine one but it doesn't even matter.

Now in DBM, this plot hole matters AND the explanation is the one given by DBM in this chapter. Two issues at once. Three when you notice how much it makes Enma look like an asshole.

Goku has Kaio phone. They can talk to the Namekians and revive everyone. It's THAT easy. There is no fixing this plothole and trying to is just bad for the story.

Yeah I am pretty sure nobody in DBM before was fond of the whole "Cell/Bojack/Broly kills everyone, The End" specials, or at least I wasn't (though I do understand why they are there, to give artists like Asura time to draw the main story). Though I do miss the U13 Specials and a couple others as they were pretty damn good even compared to this one.

Also how is Enma an asshole for not allowing dead people to do what they want? Keep in mind that Goku isn't even the only dead one meddling in the living world's affairs, Baba is too even after the deal she made with Enma is done.

And although Goku has got the North Kai, I am not sure if North Kai will allow it if Enma doesn't. I think we still need a few pages before we jump the gun, maybe you and Grash are right about North Kai (since he has already allowed Goku to communicate with Roshi to get himself wished back to life so he can fight Nappa and Vegeta).


First of all, Balance is not inherently a good thing. Good must always prevail over evil. Leaving the two equal is tacitly promoting evil. If yemma thinks "a little genocide is ok as long as it's not intergalactic" then he is promoting evil in some way. This is why that "we must not intervene in the natural order" trope is played out and illogical.

If you wanna talk balance. Gero kidnapped some people and forced them into an unnatural process to become cyborgs who then kill people with unnatural power. Therefore it would take an unnatural good action to balance that out. Yes?

Goku bending the rules to save a few billion lives is not the same as a villain abusing power. Not even close. One is saving lives, the other is taking them against innocent people's will. No sensible character would find evil in that.

It's not about leaving good and evil in tact equally. I think that's the misconception about balance. It's not about good and evil being equal and cancelling out, that's not how the real world works, your right about that. Usually it's evildoers that have no respect for balance whatsoever while good people generally have some level of respect for it (many more than others).

Not every case is the same and I doubt Goku would deliberately abuse his power for anything bad or that he would even want to but felt compelled to because of the Cyborgs and how much they harmed the Earth. But I also don't know if Enma understands this nor cares about that or if it's his business to care about that (well, aside from having to deal with the aftermath of someone killing millions, which is a ton of work for him).

"Goku bending the rules to save a few billion lives is not the same as a villain abusing power. Not even close. One is saving lives, the other is taking them against innocent people's will. No sensible character would find evil in that."

Of course not, I never said Goku was bad for doing something good. It'd be great if he gave the Cyborgs what they deserved like he did to Frieza. I don't think it's crazy to think that dead people meddling too much in the affairs of the living could have some major negative repercussions (kind of like when Old Kai was concerned about the Dragon Balls being overused having major repercussions though ultimately agreed to use them to deal with Buu). I also think that in this case Baba might actually take the blame rather than Goku for trying to contact Goku. Who knows.

But I do have to agree that it's odd Goku doesn't contact the King Kai to contact Gohan. At least he could have done that much to try to swing the tide (though it'd still be up to Gohan in that case). I imagine that wouldn't count as major scale interference since King Kai has already had no qualms about talking to people in the living world just to tell them where Namek is to use the Dragon Balls. I think I went a bit extreme in my position on balance to explain something here because Dragon Ball wasn't the best on elaborating on that concept, plus villains also do bad things in the name of balance as well like Thanos in the Avengers Movie where the dude really thought eliminating half the universe's population was some solution to a problem of overpopulation when the dude had an Infinity Gauntlet, why not double the resources or some shit? So there is that downside to "balance" where people inclined to do evil have no respect for it.

"If yemma thinks "a little genocide is ok as long as it's not intergalactic" then he is promoting evil in some way. This is why that "we must not intervene in the natural order" trope is played out and illogical."

But it's not Enma's position to play the hero (and I don't think Enma is in the business of wanting to be a hero), but to judge the souls who pass to heaven or hell (though I am shocked that Baba didn't end up in hell to be frank). He is more like a judge than anything else with the power to send dead souls to heaven or hell (which also makes him incredibly busy too, but his job would be easier when people like Frieza and the Cyborgs are dead themselves). At least we know the Cyborgs are going to hell in a heartbeat for what they have done the moment they are both dead but someone from the living is gonna have to give them the sword of justice down their hearts.

Grash was saying: DrewSaga was saying: Grash was saying: This is beyond stupid.
1. Gohan has only ever been to one planet that starts with an N so even if Goku gets cut off he should still know the plan
2. Yemma is a clown if he cut this convo off. There is nothing in official Db source material that forbids such a conversation
3. Goku could still use king kai
4. Goku could just telepathically reach out to him himself like when he was talking to king kai against freeza
5. Goku could have told him about the time chamber
6. King Kai could have told him about the chamber
7. Gohan should have been getting zenkais

I hate the future timeline for so many reasons and I think trying to "elaborate on it" will probably make it worse.

Yep, Yemma is a clown for trying to maintain the cosmic balance between the living world and Otherworld (assuming this was him) instead of abusing his power just to save one planet at the expense of the cosmos...in the case of Buu was a credible threat to the whole universe (including Otherworld) so he had to bend the rules there or there would be none. But the Cyborgs #17 and #18 do not pose this threat (though Cell should count in this category when he reached perfection) to the cosmos.

Gohan can't go to space neither so even if Gohan and Bulma knew where New Namek was, they would not have a way of getting there (namely if Goku isn't allowed to intervene).

And Gohan doesn't get any Zenkais since he is already a Super Saiyan.

Otherwise I am surprised that Goku doesn't use King Kai as a medium to communicate with Gohan. My guess is Yemma explicitly forbids Goku from any further interaction with the world of the living which means Goku isn't allowed to gain access through King Kai like he did when he told Roshi to wish him back to life (Yemma likely didn't know that Goku told Roshi to wish him back).

WukongTheMighty was saying: Actually, given what Goku did in that Broly Special way back when, what's stopping Future Goku from just training enough in the Afterlife to achieve 3 and then instagibbing the Androids with a classic telefrag? Hell, Super Saiyan Grade 2 (the bulky Super Vegeta state) would be more than enough!
Is he stupid?
He did it against Broly!

My guess (we will have to see the next few pages) is after this stunt, Enma probably forbade Goku from ever interacting with the world of the living, so this might be it for Goku being able to help Gohan as Goku can't keep manipulating the outcome of the living world as long as he is dead (it's sad but if people in the dead could just keep messing with the world of the living the universe would be thrown in chaos and everything gets messed up, Enma wants to prevent that from happening). King Kai probably chose to honor that as well and told Goku himself that he shouldn't continue meddling (plus there is the Grand Kai and Supreme Kai who likely wouldn't be too thrilled if they found out the North Kai was breaking the rules there).

Kururun was saying: Grash was saying: This is beyond stupid.
1. Gohan has only ever been to one planet that starts with an N so even if Goku gets cut off he should still know the plan
2. Yemma is a clown if he cut this convo off. There is nothing in official Db source material that forbids such a conversation
3. Goku could still use king kai
4. Goku could just telepathically reach out to him himself like when he was talking to king kai against freeza
5. Goku could have told him about the time chamber
6. King Kai could have told him about the chamber
7. Gohan should have been getting zenkais

I hate the future timeline for so many reasons and I think trying to "elaborate on it" will probably make it worse.

Well summarized. I like that Goku is the one to inspire hope in Gohan, that's thematically appropriate. This overexplaining that creates more plotholes than it solves doesn't add anything.

The plot holes already existed in canon, I don't think DBM made that worse by trying to explain it.

"At the expense of the cosmos" is a stretch. Goku stopped an interplanetary tyrant who has murdered billions. Yemma easily owes him many times over and stopping the androids would not unbalance the cosmos. Otherwise evil is actually good. Face it, this is an indefensible plot hole and no amount of jedi mind tricks about balance can fix it.

Fair enough, Goku did save countless lives from Frieza's tyranny, I can't argue that and neither could Yemma (the dude was cheering for Goku when Buu was gonna wipe out all life in the universe and Goku beat him with the Genkidama). Except Goku was alive when he fought and beaten Frieza. In U8, Goku had his chance to fight Frieza and lost and there he wasn't allowed to come back from the dead to fight Frieza. If dead people can keep disrupting the world of the living then what good were the Dragon Balls in bringing people back to life when they can just come back dead. And what would the point of life and death even be for anyone when it's better to just be dead?

"Face it, this is an indefensible plot hole and no amount of jedi mind tricks about balance can fix it. "

What jedi mind tricks? The idea that you can't just "fight evil" however you feel like it without repercussions and that Goku shouldn't tamper with the natural balance of the universe just to do "good" (though I guess Trunks is worse in that regard for time travel, but incidentally it had so little impact on his universe and the infinite multiverse)? Goku died of natural cause and Vegeta floundered as always and the rest of the Z-Fighters didn't stand a chance so it is up to Gohan to beat the Androids as unfair as that is.

Literally this is the mentality of villains, who believe that they can abuse their powers, disrupt the balance of everything including the cosmos in the name of "good". A very common problem in real life too it seems. And although the Androids are a horrible threat to the Earth, they pose no threat to the universe as long as they don't space travel. I have to agree more with your point on Frieza if anything than the Androids where Goku did a great thing for the universe in beating him (though Frieza didn't actually die, but still). However, even Frieza can't conquer something as big as a whole universe, not even close. If Frieza could teleport planet to planet and wipe them out one by one in rapid succession then I agree but only Cell and Buu (I guess U20 Broly too but I mean, that guy is pure BS) fit that bill.

And honestly it is in part Gohan's fault that he can't figure out how to beat the Androids, his U18 counterpart clowned Perfect Cell around and killed Cell after he got a Zenkai and Gohan here couldn't even beat #17 and #18? That's a massive difference in power. In U12, Trunks was a lot weaker than U18 Gohan yet he still beat #17 and #18 easily when he came back and beat Cell after.

To add to this, in the Dragon Ball lore, there is a realm between the world and the living and that is a demon realm (Dabura was the lord of that realm before he became Babidi's tool, it was also where Roshi and Krillin's soul likely went in limbo before Goku met Popo and Kami to bring them back) where chaos and evil reign supreme. In DBM, that dimension was sealed off by the Kaioshins a long time ago just to make sure the rest of the universe is preserved. I suspect that Goku or anyone else meddling too much in the realm of the living while they are dead would cause major cracks in that seal and if the seal is broken, hell get's broken lose in the universe and then the Cyborgs are suddenly less of a problem now.

However in this case I don't think Goku teleporting a couple of times would put a notable dent in that, but if that's Yemma's concern then it's pretty valid as to why he'd put his foot down on the issue and protests against Goku meddling.

Kururun was saying: DrewSaga was saying: The plot holes already existed in canon, I don't think DBM made that worse by trying to explain it.

Yes it's worse now. Because back then it wouldn't be important enough to take time in the story. The author would just handwave it away "everyone died" and never bring up their ways to break the game. We don't know if an explanation could exist, we are allowed to imagine one but it doesn't even matter.

Now in DBM, this plot hole matters AND the explanation is the one given by DBM in this chapter. Two issues at once. Three when you notice how much it makes Enma look like an asshole.

Goku has Kaio phone. They can talk to the Namekians and revive everyone. It's THAT easy. There is no fixing this plothole and trying to is just bad for the story.

Yeah I am pretty sure nobody in DBM before was fond of the whole "Cell/Bojack/Broly kills everyone, The End" specials, or at least I wasn't (though I do understand why they are there, to give artists like Asura time to draw the main story). Though I do miss the U13 Specials and a couple others as they were pretty damn good even compared to this one.

Also how is Enma an asshole for not allowing dead people to do what they want? Keep in mind that Goku isn't even the only dead one meddling in the living world's affairs, Baba is too even after the deal she made with Enma is done.

And although Goku has got the North Kai, I am not sure if North Kai will allow it if Enma doesn't. I think we still need a few pages before we jump the gun, maybe you and Grash are right about North Kai (since he has already allowed Goku to communicate with Roshi to get himself wished back to life so he can fight Nappa and Vegeta).

Grash was saying: This is beyond stupid.
1. Gohan has only ever been to one planet that starts with an N so even if Goku gets cut off he should still know the plan
2. Yemma is a clown if he cut this convo off. There is nothing in official Db source material that forbids such a conversation
3. Goku could still use king kai
4. Goku could just telepathically reach out to him himself like when he was talking to king kai against freeza
5. Goku could have told him about the time chamber
6. King Kai could have told him about the chamber
7. Gohan should have been getting zenkais

I hate the future timeline for so many reasons and I think trying to "elaborate on it" will probably make it worse.

Yep, Yemma is a clown for trying to maintain the cosmic balance between the living world and Otherworld (assuming this was him) instead of abusing his power just to save one planet at the expense of the cosmos...in the case of Buu was a credible threat to the whole universe (including Otherworld) so he had to bend the rules there or there would be none. But the Cyborgs #17 and #18 do not pose this threat (though Cell should count in this category when he reached perfection) to the cosmos.

Gohan can't go to space neither so even if Gohan and Bulma knew where New Namek was, they would not have a way of getting there (namely if Goku isn't allowed to intervene).

And Gohan doesn't get any Zenkais since he is already a Super Saiyan.

Otherwise I am surprised that Goku doesn't use King Kai as a medium to communicate with Gohan. My guess is Yemma explicitly forbids Goku from any further interaction with the world of the living which means Goku isn't allowed to gain access through King Kai like he did when he told Roshi to wish him back to life (Yemma likely didn't know that Goku told Roshi to wish him back).

WukongTheMighty was saying: Actually, given what Goku did in that Broly Special way back when, what's stopping Future Goku from just training enough in the Afterlife to achieve 3 and then instagibbing the Androids with a classic telefrag? Hell, Super Saiyan Grade 2 (the bulky Super Vegeta state) would be more than enough!
Is he stupid?
He did it against Broly!

My guess (we will have to see the next few pages) is after this stunt, Yemma probably forbade Goku from ever interacting with the world of the living, so this might be it for Goku being able to help Gohan as Goku can't keep manipulating the outcome of the living world as long as he is dead (it's sad but if people in the dead could just keep messing with the world of the living the universe would be thrown in chaos and everything gets messed up, Yemma wants to prevent that from happening). King Kai probably chose to honor that as well and told Goku himself that he shouldn't continue meddling (plus there is the Grand Kai and Supreme Kai who likely wouldn't be too thrilled if they found out the North Kai was breaking the rules there).

Kururun was saying: Grash was saying: This is beyond stupid.
1. Gohan has only ever been to one planet that starts with an N so even if Goku gets cut off he should still know the plan
2. Yemma is a clown if he cut this convo off. There is nothing in official Db source material that forbids such a conversation
3. Goku could still use king kai
4. Goku could just telepathically reach out to him himself like when he was talking to king kai against freeza
5. Goku could have told him about the time chamber
6. King Kai could have told him about the chamber
7. Gohan should have been getting zenkais

I hate the future timeline for so many reasons and I think trying to "elaborate on it" will probably make it worse.

Well summarized. I like that Goku is the one to inspire hope in Gohan, that's thematically appropriate. This overexplaining that creates more plotholes than it solves doesn't add anything.

The plot holes already existed in canon, I don't think DBM made that worse by trying to explain it.

Mister Doctor was saying: That's a pretty wild guess. Has Salagir used a poll in the past?
No, he didn't. The poll I made with Néa before this chapter and the last, were just for fun. Salagir wouldn't change his story based on a poll where readers decide who should win. I can assure you of this. He probably had the winner of this fight on his mind for several years already. But that's just my guess, I can't read his mind.
Uzurper was saying: Zenbuu, can you confirm at least if this fight truly ends at this chapter or not? Not that I'm getting bored, just curious.
Sorry, but I can't answer that. It's a spoiler.
KidTrunks was saying: I mean this in the most respectful way, the art is beautiful, I think the refernces are great, but the length has taken away from the fight. Tight and sharp is better than long and stretched.

And like i said said b4 on another page, this foght is a real victim of the tri weekly format. Remember, the medium is the message.
So you want to cut this fight short, because of the 3 pages per week release? Remember how this fight will read, after it's completely done. And I personally wouldn't want the release rhythm to influence the length of the fight and the overall story. I say it again, good things take a while and this is absolutely beautiful.

How long was Goku and Vegeta's first fight again in the manga? Ammar does a funny experiment in the forum, where he "releases" both of their other 2 fights (Saiyan Saga and Buu Saga) 3 pages per week, to see if these fights also "dragged on".....Salagir even left a long comment there you should read! https://d...ons-goku-vegeta

"As a conclusion, DBM is fast-paced AND slow-paced. If you compare it to most Jump mangas, you'll find DBM is going much, much faster.
If you read it one page every 2-3 days... Well yes, it's going to be sloooooooow paced.
(this goku-vegeta fight may be more slow that usual in DBM. It's goku-vegeta, damnit! We take our time)"

Finally! He's dead! Man this fight was boring! Can't wait for Zen Buu vs XXI :D

Grash was saying: Both of you guys need to look up french gun laws and you will see what I mean. French culture is infused into this comic.
I wished you'd realize on your own that overgeneralizing an entire country to support an argument(based on what seems to be very limited knowledge to boot) might be a bad idea. Instead, you're doubling down, so that's just great.

Stricter gun laws, on top of really not being specific to France, can be cultural just like they can be logical, as more generalized access to tools of death promotes instability. At the same time, having a weapon makes one feel safer, I do get the reasoning, and that debate has no place here regardless; what I'm saying is, this is a poorly justified stretch. As for this comic being "pacifist", do we really need a death count? Or an exploding heads one?

You should probably drop this. Whether you're right or wrong, this is a bad argument to make in more ways than one. That's where I'll stop regardless, you all have a good one.

Grash was saying: IIRC Salagir is french. French culture is extremely pacifist. They don't believe you have the right to use deadly force even in a life-or-death defense situation. This is why salagir called eliminating Bra "murder." In truth, killing Bra is more than justified but consider the background of the writer.

Also In my OPINION: Bra is a projection of some high school unrequited love that Salagir had. Notice how she is flawless and even when she is wrong the narrative twists to make her "right." Here are many examples


Didn't know we had a historian and a psychologist among the comment section. France is pacifist... Yeah right.

Turbocharger was saying: I never thought of that. I don't know much about foreign culture but the differences in values and beliefs often does have an effect on how a story is written and how people respond to it.

I wish I spoke French. I wonder what the French DBM community thinks of Vegito and Bra.
Okay, so, hm, I pledged not to post on the french version again for reasons I won't get into, talking here probably is kinda cheating, kinda not, whatever;

Grash's statement is incorrect, self-defense laws in France are, to my knowledge(as a french person), the same as in most first-world countries, aka you're legally allowed to kill to save yourself. You cannot, however, kill to specifically protect something you own(you can defend it, but not kill over it), your own life or that of someone else has to be endangered.
The french comment section is having a reaction comparable to this one's, albeit on a bit of a smaller scale, both in terms of post length and numbers. Many are pissed, many are taking sides. Been that way for a while as you'd expect considering the recent pages.

... basically I don't think Salagir being french has anything to do with it.

So many people saying 'no consequences', when Bra has to live her entire life with Vegetto, Gohan, Pan, everyone, knowing she killed her brother, Piccolo, and thousands of innocents. But sure. She only gets rewarded for this.

The lot of you think the only punishment fitting is a permanent death, so you can satisfy your desire to see a 16-year old girl die.

Goku saying some facts!

Again with level 3?! & SHUT THE F$CK UP GOKU!

Also, am I saying things or there is someone behind Vegetto in panel 3?

I must say, they ruin Vegetto's character in this story. They made him a villian

It is not. Your opinion is severely clouded by a lack of patience. Read back the chapters without the filler, starting from where babidi openly has his fighters appear. The pacing is very well done the way it currently is, possibly even done too fast in some areas. You and a lot of others just believe the pacing is "atrocious" because you base this on the 3 pages a week you get. And that cant be helped. The pacing of the story itself is good the way it is.


You can justify bad pacing by saying "oh the author just wants the story to be well thought out". How would it feel if Spider-Man just kept fighting Venom for 3 hours with Venom doing the same approach of attack and Spider-Man dodging while getting hit sometimes on all of them for 3 hours? That's what this arc has been for that past 6+ months. Hell, even JoJo Part 9 doesn't have pacing issues and it's been ongoing since 2011


Again, you bring up "six months" like you're saying "six months worth of story!". What has six months been in terms of releases? 3 chapters? The pacing isn't the problem in this, it's the amount of released content you get, and again that simply can't be changed. For comparisson's sake, the battle vs Bra has been almost 3 chapters now (at 73 pages).

The battles in dragonball Z:

goku and Piccolo vs Radditz = 5 chapters (about 14 pages each, say 70 pages).
Z warriors vs Nappa (before Goku shows up) = 5 chapters (same as above, 14 pages/70 pages total-ish)
goku vs Nappa = 4 chapters (about 56 pages)
Goku/krillin/gohan vs Vegeta (till his escape) = 13 chapters (182 pages!)
vegeta/krillin/gohan vs Recoome (not counting guldo or goku): 3 chapters (42 pages)

And now the Freeza fight, divided into individual segments:

Vegeta/Krillin/Gohan vs Freeza; 4 chapters (56 pages)
Piccolo vs Freeza (up to transformation form 4): 4 chapters (56 pages)
Goku vs Freeza (non SSJ): 9 chapters (126 pages)
Goku vs Freeza (SSJ): 10 chapters (140 pages)


Now I could go on and on... but the pattern here is that smaller fights take up fewer chapters, obviously, while the bigger fights have more chapters. Bra is, by all rights, a "big fight". She is THE strongest fighter currently in the main story (since Vegetto is gone). Everything else before was, as usual by DB patterns, a "warm up". Culling of the weak, getting rid of henchmen, and preparing for the big bad. You had 4 chapters with a LOT of characters dealing with multiple fights which were cut VERY short, and now you're on the THIRD chapter of the fight vs the big bad... with the actual "heroes" not being present yet to fight her off (traditions dictate that everyone has their asses handed to them before Goku arrives, or in this case Vegetto I suppose).

I honestly see no legitimate reason for anyone to be made about the pacing here. Salagir wrote the story, which needs to play out normally without being rushed, and Asura needs to properly fit everything in without sacrificing too much details of the story. To do this AND combine this with the reality of daily life, you only get limited pages per week, not to mention the filler chapters that are needed so that Asura can keep the pages on the quality we have grown accustomed to (which is a VERY high quality too mind you).


Just my two cents, and though I quote you specifically, it's aimed towards the dozens of people who are honestly at this point just being obnoxious on the "but pacing bad, bra annoying, just finish hur hur hur". Criticism of someone is one thing... but right now it's just gotten to the point of annoyingly repeating eachother. And I can tell you this; complaining nonstop does NOT motivate writers or artists to actually speed up the process. It may even cause the opposite.

Cell is ALIVE?! :)

If this chapter is any indication, someone always dies in 2 to 3 pages. I fear that U18 Bra is screwed within the next two pages. Son Bra will likely kill her if given the chance.

Huh, maybe U18 Bra will actually go Super Saiyan. Sucks that she won't be a match for U16 Bra unless Salagir decides to retcon in DB Super into U18.

Calling it now, bra gonna put hands on her doppelgänger and that gohan is going to get a rage boost not even bra can deal with

Haha, lol, regarding "bleeding out". I am not arguing FOR or AGAINST anyone here, but I find it funny that you are talking about bleeding out from certain attacks throughout Z, and not even thinking about other aspects of damage. I dunno, call me nuts, but when someone drills a hole through your chest (in the front, out the back), bleeding is not the most serious aspect of that problem, haha :D How about destroyed organs, shattered spine in the process? Nah, it's fine :D

Moth was saying: I suspect the bleed out will be a major problem
I don't know who started this but since apparently it's spreading, I'll just ask. When in the ever of Dragon ball has anyone bleed out? Even people who lost an arm didn't care about it XD. Does anyone really want any battle to end because of, or even slightly focus on, something like that? It would just be so uncool...

I dunno why but I feel like people are so desperate to see Bra lose alredy they see death in every corner. If in next page she killed everyone and then left through a door, everyone will start saying that doorknob probably was infected by covid and because of how bad SSJ and covid work together, she'll die in like 2 hours tops. And obviously that will make Vegetto angry with gohan cause his fight with her make her remove her gloves during the fight.

>Yesterdays comments: There's no way Cell will die!
Okay are we done here? Seriously just have Vegitto show up and and this please.

@Misi
Your arguments are just moot and clearly based on two things: 1. You just don’t like Bra, and 2. All of your tantrum is caused because of the format of the comic. You keep bringing out the fact Bra has been in spotlight for ”MONTHS” yet this fight is much shorter than vs Nappa and has had more meaningful twists than that fight. It is the page count that matters, not the time it has taken when the release schedule is as slow as it is. It is your fault of having a problem with that, not the story’s. The last thing we need is for them to start rushing the story because of impatient kids want the whole DBM to be over before next month, no matter how bad the story would become. If you want to see how that would make the story look, just check Hatchiyack vs Gast; a very rushed battle that had much more potential.

As others have mentioned, if you read this from the beginning to the end (read the whole majin revolt while you are at it), it is not long at all.

This sounds like the right occasion to quote my past self from a looot of pages ago!
It seems like Salagir didn't care TOO much about physics here ;)

"Hi all. For what concerns the amount of oxygen left in the barrier, let's do some MATH!

First of all, we need to assume some things: the barrier doesn't let air pass through, Babidi consumes approximately the same amount of oxygen as a adult human being, the density of O2 on the planet was the same as on Earth, as well as the air temperature.
That said, let's jump in!

I'll write down some numbers which you all can quickly find searching on the web; we don't care about exact values, so if you end up finding slightly different numbers, well, that's fine ;)
We consume 0.4 liters of O2 per minute.
Air is made by 21% of O2.
When O2 density goes below 10%, we pass out.

Given a volume V, 21% of it is filled with O2: the effective volume, useful for us, is Ve=0.21V.
Ve decreases in time with a rate vc, velocity of consumption (of O2), that is 0.4 l/min.
This means that the effective volume of O2 obeys to the following relation:
Ve(t) = Ve(t=0) - vc x t
We want to find the time of fainting tf.
This happens when Ve(tf) = 0.10V.
Therefore:
Ve(tf) = 0.10V = Ve(0) - vc x tf = 0.21V - vc x tf
Rearranging:
tf = (0.21-0.10)V/tf = 0.11V/vc
Expressing the total volume V in liters, we have the following numerical relation:
tf = 0.11V/0.4 min = V/3.64 min

Now we need to estimate the volume V of the barrier.
Let's approximate it with a sphere.
Judging from this page and the first of the chapter, and assuming that hairless Bra is 1.7 m tall, we can safely assume a radius R of approximately 2 m.
This gives a total volume within the sphere of 4/3 x pi x R^3 ≈ 32 m^3 (as any other physicist can confirm, pi is OF COURSE 3).
We now need to subtract the amount of volume that is not occupied by the air.
Let's neglect Babidi and Bra and only consider the ground beneath them.
We can safely assume that it is located 1 m away from the center of the sphere.
We can compute it as the volume of the slice of sphere projected from the center minus the truncated conus above it.
Assuming I did no mistake in this calculation, we end up with a reasonable 28 m^3 of available air.
Remembering that 1 m^3 = 10^3 l, we can finally find the time of fainting for the terrified warlock:

tf = V/3.64 min = 28000/3.64 min ≈ 7800 min.
So Bra was not wrong: Babidi indeed has oxygen for at least 10 minutes.
Just 800 times more, but better be safe than sorry, right? :P"