Sick ass page. Shocked Videl is just dead in this.

to make her look like a bad person obviously 1 Replie(s)

Considering a weakened Spirit Bomb nearly killed Vegeta, this combined with a Kikoho should work.

It'd be kind of lame if only Namekians were allowed the ability to cancel out life stop so maybe he'll figure something out on his own. Sure would explain how he's a threat to others in that vision.

Salagir for some reason likes to put hard limits on stuff. The strongest Super Saiyan can't surpass the weakest Super Saiyan 2 for example unless they're a fusion or a child of a fusion because then their "potential" is higher. Gohan has always had higher potential than both Goku and Vegeta and he had that unlocked so unless Salagir changed his mind, I doubt this will change.

Is that in the actual comic and I just forgot or was that novelization stuff? 1 Replie(s)

Speaking of two Gohans, a Potara fusion between them would be cool and potentially useful. There's also the potential for a Namekian fusion with the two Piccolos+Gast. Certainly would be a lot more powerful than Vegetto.

I'm more a fan of her waist and hips! Ehehehe!

Ah, see that's an easy fix. "Videl didn't know". Now she seems less cruel and more just ignorant.

To be fair, the traditional fighters just have the wrong "power". The most powerful people have all been people with magic. The Dragon Ball cast apparently wasted their time. The Namekians, XXI, Buu, and to an extent I'K'L have shown magic is the superior power system by far. 1 Replie(s)

Man we really do need Salagir to clarify this power level issue huh lol

Yeah Bra is way too OP for Vegeta to stand up to her unless he legitimately scales anywhere near full power Cell. 1 Replie(s)

I think it's more of a leap to assume wanting revenge means Vegeta is a bad guy like King Kold who is only offended because of his pride. She knows little to nothing about Vegeta or his past and thus has zero reason to assume he's just being a generic evil bad guy, especially when she knows her universe is very similar to u18 and can see that good people choose to associate with him. Even her alternate universe counterpart was associating with him. Unless she secretly believes everyone in U18 is some King Kold type, I don't see why she'd assume that of Vegeta as well.


He snaps at her because he wants to kill the guy who killed his kids. She knows this or at the very least should because she's clearly capable of implying she wants to save her kid. She insinuates he doesn't care about his dead children when, clearly, he wants revenge. It's as simple as that.

I personally don't get how you can't understand that I expect someone who can imply things to be able to, themselves, understand a desire for revenge pretty clearly implied. She is, in fact, being cruel and rude because it's a cruel and rude statement from someone who, supposedly, can understand implications and glean general context clues. She would have to ignore a lot, including this entire other group of people choosing to associate with him, or at least assume a lot of negative things about all these people to make such a statement.

Bra didn't do anything wrong though for defending her family from a guy physically threatening them. I just don't like her as a character in general. I assume you were addressing that statement to other people but I figured I'd let you know I agree with Bra here(even if I don't like her). 1 Replie(s)

Again, you misunderstand. I included from an in-universe perspective, not just from a reader's perspective. From Videl's point of view, she's clearly capable of understanding implications and desires because she herself shows a desire to keep those she loves safe. She does not give Vegeta the benefit of the doubt and immediately assumes he's a heartless monster even though the implication here, a concept she fully understands, is that he wants revenge for his children. She willfully ignores this implication and CHOOSES to be cruel despite such an act being out of character.

Either she doesn't understand implications, and thus cannot expect others to, or she does understand implications and has chosen to be randomly and needlessly cruel. It's that simple. Either way, she's in the wrong here.

Again, it's a simple case of either she cannot understand implications or she can and chose to be cruel. What you're suggesting is different from what she's saying. She's insinuating that he doesn't care about reviving his kids when he clearly wants revenge, even from an in-universe point of view. Yes, she doesn't know a lot about him, but the guy clearly states he wants to kill the guy who killed his children. Her statement suggests she was implying she wanted to revive her kids before outright saying so, suggesting she understands subtleties and nuances of statements and motivations. However, at the same time, she willfully ignores the implications of Vegeta's desire to kill XXI in an effort to be cruel.

She doesn't get to have it both ways. Either she's suddenly become a complete idiot who both understands implications and doesn't understand them at the same time or she has suddenly become a cruel idiot who wants to hurt Vegeta's feelings for no reason. Someone expressing the desire to kill the killer of his children with no other context is easily understood. It's just bad writing which can be easily fixed with some dialogue tweaks.

Again, it's either she understands implications or she doesn't. Either way makes her look out of character and cruel. 2 Replie(s)

Okay but I said the issue was if we can give Videl the benefit of the doubt, we can give Vegeta the benefit of the doubt. Either way it makes Videl look like she's just randomly being cruel. He obviously wants revenge, she wants her kid to just be safe. Despite this being obvious, she still randomly insinuates Vegeta is some sort of heartless monster when he clearly wants revenge which makes her seem heartless instead. That's the issue. If we take the obvious to be understood by both, she comes across as cruel. If we instead assume that she's an idiot who can't understand implications, she still comes across as cruel. 2 Replie(s)

You're inferring retroactively that she was implying on resurrecting her children. She never even mentions Pan. She never mentions reviving anyone or even implies it with her words. She just randomly freaks out and screeches about Vegeta hating his children after repeatedly asking to run away. Anybody could have thrown this exact reasoning in her face just like she did Vegeta. "What, run away and leave our children dead and their killer alive? Clearly you're a heartless psychopath." She doesn't get points for freaking out about it after she calls someone an uncaring parent over their dead kids.

If you want to give credit to Videl about "implying" on reviving people, you have to give credit to Vegeta for implying wanting revenge for his kids. Neither of them mentioned reviving anybody and he didn't say anything for or against reviving his kids. Either way you spin it, Videl comes across as heartless and needlessly cruel here. Not Vegeta.

This is honestly easily fixed in one page edit. Simply have Videl say "Killing XXI won't revive everyone and there's no point risking our lives when we can easily defeat him by sending everyone home." If you want to give her extra reason to flip out, have Vegeta say "That's not good enough!" though you wouldn't really need to change what he says. Videl just needed to say her intentions more clearly or at least IMPLY on reviving everyone. Again, it comes across as random and weirdly cruel from Videl. 2 Replie(s)

It wasn't even suggested or implied once. She just started screeching like Chi-chi the moment he asked what she's afraid of and then insulted him about his dead children just so Bra could flex her power level again. 1 Replie(s)

In the sense that she fills a similar personality type. When I say worse, I don't mean morally worse but of a lesser quality. Less fun to watch.
Yeah probably but that gives her less excuse to be controlled. I honestly don't know what the requirements to break free from control are supposed to be. Willpower? Power level? Either way it speaks poorly to her character.
Yeah that's part of the issue. Unlike other characters with these personality types, Bra tends to get off extremely light in comparison. Bulma, for example, suffers a lot of humiliation and it doesn't tend to get in the way of the plot like Bra does. The one time she gets a taste of Karma, Ginyu's body swap, she just treats having her body stolen as a minor inconvenience and it's rapidly solved by Vegetto. The only other time she gets any karmic comeuppance, Pan insulting her, it starts getting quickly resolved. Everybody else is constantly stroking her ego when she fails or acts like a bad person. They treat her like being a halfway decent person is some saintly event.
I'd disagree. It was really boring, short, vague, and caused her to completely break the Majin Seal which has never been done before which just serves as an achievement to hold over better characters. Everyone but Pan and Vegetto instantly forgave her with Vegetto being painted as the bad guy. Pan's hate for Bra afterwards didn't last very long either.

Ultimately she's just not fun to watch. She gets away extremely lightly whenever she does something wrong, whenever she does suffer some sort of karmic punishment the punishment ends up being overturned extremely quickly, she's got a grating personality, she's barely got any moments of any sort of redeeming qualities, her character development has been extremely slow, and she feels more like a villain than a hero. 1 Replie(s)

Bra's been pretty divisive for being a worse evil Vegeta. She kills her family and is only excited to surpass someone in strength, she's generally a pretty horrible person, she's bratty, she gets constantly rewarded and defended despite her failings as a person, and unlike Vegeta she never gets her comeuppance. It's like if Vegeta never grew as a person and never got his ass handed to him. Dude dies twice, constantly jobs, his ego always bites him in the ass, he's constantly playing second fiddle to a much kinder man, and served as a narrative punching bag. Salagir, however, legitimately paints Bra as in the right and a victim of Vegetto's supposed bad parenting. She remembers him threatening her life. The fact is she genocided a planet and killed her brother and was happy about it and NEVER got karma accordingly.

She also throws her weight around a lot and nobody slaps her down for it. The worst she's ever gotten was a scolding about being "passive" which was turned into a moment to paint Vegetto as a bad person for trying to rightfully kill her for being a dangerous and apparently easily controlled hot head. Vegetto was having flashbacks to the time she reveled in murdering his son, along with the population of an entire planet, and he's somehow made to be the bad guy because she cried. 1 Replie(s)

Like I said, being emotional doesn't mean you should miss basic information that was just told to you. She already knows finding the Dragon Balls means conflict with XXI and Porunga was in the middle of granting XXI's wish. The moment they find the Dragon Balls, it's extremely likely XXI's wish will just be granted unless it got reset somehow. The Dragon Balls themselves are a danger here. She also has basic critical thinking skills so assuming someone who wants to kill the guy that killed his kids somehow doesn't care about them is nonsense. That's what makes this false drama. Now, not thinking rationally would be to fully ignore the option of using the Dragon to send XXI home or somehow block him from getting wishes.

It's nonsensical. She doesn't need to know Vegeta to realize he's plainly stating his revenge. This is just a random, and out of character, act of cruelty for the sake of generating tension between the two groups. "Oh, you want to kill the guy who killed your children? Clearly you don't care if they stay dead." It's just nonsensical false drama for the sake of creating tension by using a nonsense statement. It's not particularly bad but they could have used a dumber and more rash character, like Bra, to make a nonsense statement like this.

False drama. Her daughter isn't gonna get revived if she stays home, obviously they're gonna revive everyone, and she knows that. Also that was really weirdly cruel of her when she just heard that Vegeta's children were just killed. She should also know Vegeta obviously wants revenge. Getting the Dragon Balls will inevitably force conflict with XXI. It's basic logic. We also know he already made his wish and that Porunga will almost certainly grant it the moment he's resummoned. That's the whole issue.

There's a difference between being emotional and just being nonsensical. It really does feel like a page where they just wanna show off Asura's art being cool. Not a BAD reason but they could have come up with a better excuse than this. 3 Replie(s)

Thanks. I appreciate it. Sorry if my reply was abrasive by the way. I know I can tend to be that way.

Obviously because "confirmed that on the Q&A stream" sounded to me like it was recent enough to be today. 1 Replie(s)

Did he also confirm what the difference is in damage to his form between when Buu did it and Vegetto did it? 1 Replie(s)

I wonder why this time was different from when Buu vaporized him.

Well you gotta remember that Buu completely destroyed his physical old man form. No matter what type of attack Vegetto used, he'd only damage XXI.

Vegetto was SO looking forward to getting his revenge. Look at him. He's absolutely ecstatic!

18 looks cool.

Ah, I see Super Goku infected DBM Goku.

Man Goku got WIDE between panels

Too bad he's pretty much irrelevant since he's not a magic user or a fusion.

I understand why they're doing this. Killing off the dead weight makes sense. Sucks but it's understandable.

Whataboutisms don't excuse poor writing. I like the idea behind it but a simple fix would just be to explain it's part of Piccolo's already existing magical abilities. He's able to conjure things from thin air after all and still has all of Kami's knowledge, even if he can't make Dragonballs himself. 1 Replie(s)

Ah, this makes people losing durability make more sense. Doesn't really make Vegetto shattering into pieces make sense though on top of him not spilling blood or dying until I'K'L resumed "Life" make sense. Also how is he vibrating his antenna if that's supposed to stop too? 3 Replie(s)

Awww!!!! That's super frikin cute. I love that last panel too. Such a happy smile. Over all amazing chapter. I can't think of a single complaint. Excellent work all around.

Why did Buu make a blushing automaton to fall in love with Uub? Hell, why did Buu take this form and be weirdly flirty in Uub's dreams? 1 Replie(s)

Hello, I'd like to order about a dozen of those Juna pops please. Thank you.

This is VERY silly. I love it.

Kaioken is explicitly stated to be a power multiplying technique. Looking similar doesn't mean they have the same multiplier. If that was true, Super Saiyan Grade 2 would be equal to Kaioken since it increases muscles. Roshi's muscle form would also be the same. This "transcended" state would be weaker than Kaioken x20 by default. That's just how math works. We have no context for how strong they are using these "levels" when we know base kaioken can multiply anywhere from x2 to x20. Saying "Maximum" and "Transcended" is meaningless when we don't know how much that supposedly multiplies their power. Are they referring to their own personal maximum? Kaioken's literal maximum? If it's the literal maximum, is it x20 or is it higher? What does Transcended do if there's already a supposed Maximum? How much stronger is that than Maximum? All of these questions are unanswered because they don't want to give concrete multipliers or scaling so they can remain vague while writing.

I'm failing to see how you think "Maximum" and "Transcended" are at all canon because of their muscles and I'm also failing to see how you're getting confused here. All I said was "Maximum" and "Transcended" are meaningless words here because there's no frame of reference. "Transcended" Kaioken has literally never once been a thing in canon and a quick google search would show you that.

I don't know why you think Goku using Kaioken x3 and x4 was "transcended" but it was never stated, implied, or in any way shape or form said to be "transcended". That's a DBM exclusive term for Kaioken Also multipliers are just math. Multipliers don't change based on how high a number is. Multiplying something by 2 still results in double a number. 1 Replie(s)

Looks cool but the "maximum" and "transcended" phrasing is kind of meaningless without something to reference against it, especially since multipliers were ditched. 2 Replie(s)

I hope he has some cool techniques.

For someone so condescending and who spent "many hours" coloring the arc you're easily proven wrong. Page 1692 has her needing a Senzu because of Gohan's Kamehameha. She also got countered and damaged by Cell of all people. Cell's Makankosappo took off her arm which means he could have killed her. Gohan's fist clashed with her beams when she went to defend Babidi and he survived it. It took me two seconds. If they weren't at least somewhat comparable, they wouldn't be able to damage her at all and she definitely wouldn't need multiple Senzu. It was just like the Radditz fight except a bit more one sided and with more fighters. She was dominant and winning but they were clearly strong enough to seriously maim and potentially kill her. That's a fact. Coloring something clearly doesn't make you an authority on the subject.

I don't know why you're always so condescending to people but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you somehow thought the words "somewhat comparable" and "refresher" were somehow rude to you. 1 Replie(s)

Being able to fight, harm, and not get one shot is pretty huge. I also said SOMEWHAT comparable. Don't act like I said they were equal. Re-read the Majin Bra fight if you need a refresher.



Having busted magic doesn't make your power level huge. If it was just his power level then nobody would even land a hit. Don't forget that despite being hurt by a buffed Cell Jr. Gast was able to completely negate Vegetto's SS3 and completely restrain Buu. Magic is just that busted. 2 Replie(s)

How big is the gap between SS3 Goku and Zen Buu...? Considering Zen Buu is still weaker than Vegetto in terms of raw power and Ultimate Gohan(and thus SS3 Goku) is at least somewhat comparable to Majin SS2 Bra, I really doubt it's "58 years" of difference. 3 Replie(s)

Cute Kaioshin.

He is the one named Sailor Moon!

Fighting evil by moonlight~

The background gives him magical girl vibes.

Would have been cool if someone was gripping him by the throat.

How did she dodge that????? 2 Replie(s)

As long as it's not Shin Kikoho, Gast has this.

I mean in terms of story telling. Despite the power up, Trunks is barely scratched from the numerous "slashes". I think I see like two actual cuts on Trunks. Why wouldn't a slash attack cut through him unless trunks was massively more powerful? Visually, it feels weak and kind of a lame cop out. 4 Replie(s)

You probably shouldn't commit to slashing attacks if you're not gonna slash up a character. Just makes it seem like trunks isn't getting harmed by attacks many times stronger than him and makes Goku Black look really weak. 1 Replie(s)

You mean Vegeta's? 2 Replie(s)

Probably wants all three wishes.

Lampshading that people don't like what you did doesn't make it retroactively better.

I'm glad they're at least speedrunning away from the final match disaster. Hopefully we'll get to see something actually interesting and fun in the next couple pages instead of curbstomps. 1 Replie(s)

I am suddenly okay with Goku not showing up when the Saiyans arrived. This is really sweet. I hope/wish it's more than just a page and that Chichi at least gets to hug him goodbye. Just a big hug between the two of them as Goku's body disappears would be perfect.

If only the people saying "she isn't being portrayed sympathetically" could have seen how she got treated later as a sympathetic and sad child. lol

This would be a poor narrative decision. I will just assume it's there to look cool and not actually canon.


You mistake DBM logic for canon. Goku was allowed to interfere with the affairs of the living just fine because he had saved the Earth before. Enma also had him prepare specifically for the Saiyans. If he had such an issue with the dead interfering with the living, he wouldn't have allowed that. There was never anything to suggest they had a policy against that. The Bojack special is where that idea came from.

I'd be down with Piccolo getting a Namekian fusion boost from Gast, now that we're mentioning them. It'd still be potentially temporary and be a good way for Piccolo to actually be able to counter the time stop. 1 Replie(s)

Agreed. Just because you point out in story that you made a bad decision with your story it doesn't mean that fixes anything or it somehow becomes ironic or funny or whatever you're intending. All this shows is Salagir chose to make a bad decision, knew it would be disappointing, and still went through with it despite having this foresight. 1 Replie(s)

You say this but the majority of the criticism is "I don't like this and think this was a wasted opportunity. I wish they didn't write this." and variations. 1 Replie(s)

Oh boy. Another page explaining what we already knew.

It's not about Goku defeating XXI. It's about XXI now being too OP for the rest of the cast and being denied a spectacle. It was just kind of lame.

Yeah once he gets his wish, or doesn't, that reasoning is out the window. There's no reason he can't make his wish or fail to get it, presumably to be able to travel the multiverse, and just eat or kill everyone while they're frozen in time. On top of that, that logic doesn't work for anybody who rebels. He can one shot literally everyone here now and they can't defend themselves or react. Salagir accidentally made an invincible and untouchable god so now he's gonna have to write some massive weaknesses for his various abilities. 1 Replie(s)

I see we're wasting the final match to speed things up to the main conflict. Why didn't XXI just kill everyone here with time stop? Because it'd ruin the story, obviously, but the team doesn't seem to care about throwing away plot points to speed things along. Vegetto can't stop him. Gast can't stop him. He has irresistible magic, time stop that lets him punch above his power class, the ability to absorb energy, is supposedly not alive so who knows if he can even be killed. Now what?

Whoever tries to stop him or resist him can just get instantly one shotted now. I'K'L could kill Vegetto despite being Android level. Who can even TOUCH this guy now? Hell, Gast can't even put up a fight anymore because Gast can just consume him while time stopped and nobody else has Gast's level of regen and magic. The only one who can resist him now, POTENTIALLY, is Uub now that we know everyone else is effectively worthless against XXI.

Like I said before, Salagir made magic way too over powered. Now there's very little the rest of the cast can do that would make for a believable defeat since XXI has so many irresistible abilities and can literally one shot the entire cast with one explosion while time stopped. 2 Replie(s)

How did you know?!

Nah, but seriously. It's just kind of a bummer. Fakeout or not, it's just not fun seeing people get no diffed. The Gast fight was fun but I guess Salagir's just thinking "Well, Goku is just Gast with more power and less abilities so let's make it quick!" Whatever. I just hope this isn't dragged out with lots of dialogue so we can get to the evil rebellion asap. Maybe that'll be more entertaining.

Magic is too overpowered in DBM. It was the same with Zen Buu being able to counter everyone but Gast until he had prep time to solo Gast. Really just makes it feel like everyone in Dragon Ball wasted their time with ki since apparently magic just hard counters most of it. Really annoying how magic keeps getting overwhelming victories and one shots. 1 Replie(s)

Way to go Yamcha!!

Oh damn this is a good twist. I hope it works.

Panel 3 looks nice.

I'll try to address these one by one.

1. Vegeta stated that he had surpassed his father when he was a child. Databooks at the time clocked King Vegeta at around 10k. Like it or not, that's what colored the public perception. This means for like 30 years or so Vegeta didn't even double his power level. Even if we ignored that and he got there across his entire life from battling, a few Zenkais easily sped him way past that. Training was very obviously a non-factor for Vegeta up until after Namek.

2. Vegeta did indeed get stronger in the Namek Saga.... through Zenkais. Not training. They can get stronger through battle but the difference is not nearly as impactful as Zenkai and, as we've seen with Goku, pretty negligible over many decades compared to Zenkais and proper training. Just because Vegeta says it doesn't mean it matters when we clearly see and know where he got the majority of his power.

3. Krillin didn't get to train with King Kai and Yamcha got a week with King Kai tops. Tien and Chiaotzu are the only humans who got to train with King Kai for a significant amount of time and it seems to have made no appreciable difference. We also have proof that training together is FACTUALLY superior to just getting Kami's training. I also think it's disingenuous to attribute all of their success, as well as Goku's, to the brief time they had with Kami and King Kai as they're all competent and talented individuals who work hard at what they do.

4. This is just arguing semantics and I don't know why you even brought it up? Splitting and then fusing back together is still fusing and it still gave Piccolo a good excuse for a huge power boost whereas the humans didn't really have such a good excuse. Saiyans had busted physiology, Piccolo had Namekian fusion, the humans had nothing.

5. Divine training means very little considering how inconsistent it was. Remember, Goku over a few years remained in the low hundreds by training with Kami and then having an extra 5 years between that and Radditz's arrival. The humans multiplied their power levels from the lower hundreds to Radditz level and beyond. The two groups had a massive difference in effectiveness with regards to training. Kami is clearly irrelevant here since Goku didn't get anywhere near the same results.

I think you're missing the point that I've made too that it doesn't make sense for the humans to have gotten that strong in canon. It feels like you think I'm arguing that there's no way the Saiyans could have gotten stronger either when I absolutely agreed they could have easily, especially when wrangling Gohan. It just needed better elaboration and maybe less of a time jump. Your time would be better spent debating others.

Training with strong partners, with high gravity, biological cheat codes like Zenkai, and having magic to assist is massively more effective than any other training that's ever been shown. Divine training with Kami didn't even get Goku past 500, Divine training with Kami only got him to 8k. Zenkais were the most massive early jump from him. His training later on was also infinitely more successful than any training he got from King Kai or Kami. You're also forgetting Vegeta didn't train with any godly entity and, at best, had increased gravity and the time chamber as his major training and did INFINITELY better than Goku got from his training with gods. Goku himself admits that if Vegeta couldn't beat the Androids, he couldn't beat them. Goku's training with Gohan, both gravity and having a strong enough partner, brought him from below 17+18 to above Semi Perfect Cell and doing fairly well against a Perfect Cell that was holding back.

Again though, like I said it doesn't matter. The manga was nonsensical with how strong the humans got and Goten-Kun's scaling makes more sense to me, even if I still find it a little much. Gohan's like 14 right now and by that time he was a Super Saiyan 2 in the main continuity. 5 years would have made more sense. 1 Replie(s)

Mostly because Vegeta canonically has BARELY improved since he was a toddler and the Saiyans also never trained much if at all. Like really? Saibaman level when KRILLIN can one shot like 3 or 4 of them? Come on, Radditz. Like I said before though, just dropping "dealing with Gohan's temper tantrums really improved our power levels!" would be a solid enough excuse for somewhat decent improvements. Hell, remember how he nearly overpowered third form Freeza after a Guru buff to Saiyan Saga Vegeta level and a senzu to heal his broken neck from Recoome? Even Piccolo wasn't touching third form and Gohan's anger shot him up THAT far. Saiyans having the excuse that Gohan's baby rage was that dangerous and helpful to their growth is a GREAT excuse.

The humans get UNREASONABLY powerful in the manga. Putting Goku's whole life to shame in one year by doing way better than he ever did training with Kami, Tien surviving getting touched by the Androids period, Yamcha being strong enough for Doctor Gero to assume that he's Goku, Krillin surviving a single kick from Perfect Cell. Meanwhile the Saiyans are pulling zenkais out their ass, Super Saiyan forms, and Piccolo gets TWO Namekian fusions. Hell, why did HERCULE survive getting smacked into a plateau by Cell other than Toriyama finding it funny? There no reason any of them should have survived and Tien definitely shouldn't have been able to hold off Cell but he did anyway. 1 Replie(s)

Again, I point out that Goku had MORE time to train with Kami than they did with an extra 5 years AFTER that training. They accomplished more in one year than he did in almost a decade. The only difference was they trained together showing that Kami's training is actually pretty irrelevant considering how little it boosted Goku.

I will also bring up I DID mention this is a clearly inconsistent jump in power and Toriyama himself clearly didn't think about it too much. Again, Tenshinhan goes from Jobber to MVP staller against Semi-Perfect Cell in the course of 3 years and some change with King Kai all because of a single technique. Considering such a feat, the guy should be one shotting 100% Freeza.

Goten-kun's scaling, while a bit unreasonable, is perfectly fine considering how unreasonable the power scaling gets for the humans in the actual manga. Scaling that back is perfectly acceptable in my opinion.

In one year they went from less than 200 to stronger than Radditz with Krillin killing several Saibamen in one attack. Goku, with MORE time with Kami AND a 5ish year time gap afterward, couldn't even crack 1k with his strongest Kamehameha after well over half a decade. You are severely underestimating the humans here. Having decent training partners(or in the case of Saiyans, Zenkais and high gravity), is clearly far more valuable. Tien, with 3 years after the Saiyan saga on his own, held back Semi-Perfect Cell. It'd make way more sense if the Saiyans have just gotten that much stronger because of Gohan's fits of anger causing him to rebel and them having to deal with Freeza.

The truth though is Toriyama wanted people to catch up at least somewhat so they did. Doesn't matter what the difference was before. That's why I don't think it's THAT big of a deal that the scaling is wonky. 10 years IS way too much time but ultimately it doesn't matter because the humans apparently could have just trained a year together on Kami's Lookout and surpassed Goku with ease before Radditz ever showed up and Tien just needed to invent the Shin Kikoho to one shot Freeza. 1 Replie(s)

Nice expression on Tien in panel 3. Good work on the lines around the eyes.

Mafuba not working with too big of a power gap seems fine to me. The only real issue with the story I have is how weak the humans are compared to their Cell Saga selves. If the Saiyans were shown to have gotten some buffs from, say, wrangling Gohan and HIS crazy potential into being an obedient soldier as well as dealing with Freeza I don't think I'd have much if any issue. 10 years is just too big of a gap, realistically, for this story to work at all. Also this Gohan would be older than his Cell Saga self even with the Time Chamber training.

Honestly I'd love an actual excuse for them all, Saiyans included, to still be this weak. Goten-kun clearly has the chops for it. Maybe the Saiyans have been secretly getting zenkais under Freeza's nose, maybe they've also been scouting out how strong Freeza might actually be and what to do about his dad so they've been keeping their true power secret and are having to bring it out against the humans. Hell, you could even excuse Tien getting no diffed by Gohan by saying the gap between Kikoho and Shin Kikoho is just THAT huge in this canon.

Of course I don't expect Goten-kun to alter or add anything. The story's fine as is. I just have the one personal hang up and it's ultimately not that important. Though comment sections ARE for yapping so why not yap?

The only actual issue here with the Mafuba is Chiaotzu forgot to throw down a sealing container. Mafuba's pointless without one! 1 Replie(s)

That's fair enough. You feel what you feel. The common sentiment I've seen, and share, is that while it's overall good it has some REALLY bad spots that are largely disliked. You're very much the minority but it's not like you're WRONG either since taste isn't objective. 2 Replie(s)

The constant defense squad whenever people criticize seems a little silly. DBM is infamous for its sudden dips in quality and for Salagir's questionable logic at times. This happens and will continue to happen until the end of the comic.

At the very least the team can rest easy knowing it'll never be as poorly written as Broly: Final War. I'd take Bra and South Kaioshin any day over something like that. It's a genuinely fun comic when it doesn't do these massive dips out of nowhere. Why else would so many people be commenting after so many years? 2 Replie(s)

Man, this is kind of annoying. Having bad stuff happen because a character is being annoying and stupid kind of sucks the fun out of a story and its events. Oh well.

This is super awkward. South Kai comes in, beats them up, leaves, and comes back in like two seconds? Stupid. 3 Replie(s)

So the What If chapter with kakaditz was a waste of time AND inaccurate just because?

So it wasn't a mental block and Radditz was just weaker. I guess probably because of XXI? That or "Haha Radditz weak" memes.

Well I can tell this is just gonna be another round of disappointment. Let's hope it doesn't reach Bra levels of disappointment.

After 10 years they should be past their Cell Saga selves and half way to their Buu saga selves but the author seems to have forgotten that or has yet to reveal why things are different. 2 Replie(s)

It's kind of sad he doesn't have a soul. Nothing but oblivion waiting for him when he dies and endless hunger while alive.

True. Maybe add on top an invulnerability to soul manipulation and then magic. Cover all your bases. Honestly, Broly's invulnerability is already a good start. IDK why anybody wouldn't be wishing for a better version of Legendary Super Saiyan after seeing it in action. Free power AND invulnerability? If you get it without the berserker rage it's game over for 99% of people.

Immortality and advanced healing is what they should want. That and Legendary Super Saiyan power minus the berserker rage. Maybe an immunity to that black goop that the tech warriors use too just in case. Not sure what else could beat that. 1 Replie(s)

I'm starting to think that too. Considering how bad it was, I don't think it really makes up for that.

I hope this isn't another speedblitzed problem solving thing like Salagir did with Buu and the Ginyu problem.

It would genuinely be great characterization. Completely unlike DBM considering how often Salagir flubs stuff like this but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

If it's solely about XXI engendering good will and sympathizing with hunger, I'm super down for that because it'd be great characterization. 1 Replie(s)

Agreed. Just because you can make a few attempts at setup in universe doesn't make it a good out of universe decision for the story. Vegetto being stupid enough to just swallow beans from a super powered mage doesn't make for a fun or enjoyable story. It just comes across as kind of lazy and boring.

Didn't he hold back Cell with it for a long time and still survive?

Well, I see I've gotta turn off my brain to accept this.

What was stopping Tien from spamming it until Gohan was unconscious or dead? 1 Replie(s)

Yeah I guess... Feels like a cop out though and it ignores Goku's positive influence and the fact Vegeta sacrificed his own pride for the sake of others.

I feel like I was completely ignored lol. I addressed that. He ultimately threw that away for his family's sake to become Vegetto. That's part of his growth.

The Buu moment "You're number one" is certainly inferior to gaining a whole lifetime of someone's emotional growth and kinder personality. As for Goku's training, the guy spent 7 years without a proper rival and was perfectly happy just learning from people. He's spent most of his life without a proper rival and still loved to train.

In the end, the things you like about Vegetto are the things that I simply see as inferior and disingenuous storytelling. DBM says that Goku has had little to no positive influence on Vegetto as a person because of Vegeta not having his singular moment during the kid Buu fight despite the fact that, instead, Vegetto gained an entire lifetime of goodness via Goku. On top of that, it's simply willful ignorance on what the rivalry between Goku and Vegeta did for both of them. To ignore that story aspect is to pretend like it never happened and Vegeta was just some pure evil that has is wholly tainting and corrupting the good Goku brought to both Vegeta's life and the world around him. 1 Replie(s)

Vegeta still had growth and to pretend it was solely the Kid Buu moment is an overstatement since that only pertained to his relationship dynamic with Goku. Vegeta sacrificed his pride and threw away the hurt he felt from being thoroughly left behind when he heard how the people he cared about were absorbed or eaten by Buu. The extremes he went to just to gain enough power to equal SS2 Goku were significant but that was caused by his hurt ego and pride. That same ego and pride was thrown away because, ultimately, he chose to care for his family more than himself.

This all was in thanks to Goku who has been a great positive influence on him. Ultimately, DBM Vegetto forgets that influence entirely. It forgets how Vegeta slowly but surely was becoming his best self because of Goku and his family. Being fused with Goku shouldn't bring Goku's aspects down to ultimately create a worse person but uplift the better qualities of Vegeta because that's how their personalities played off of each other. Goku gained a sense of pride and respect for his heritage because of Vegeta and Vegeta, through attempting to catch up to Goku, started mimicking him(intentionally or not) by gaining a family and ultimately grew to care for them.

DBM says "Nah, what if he bad parent and evil doh?" Vegetto ultimately gained all the worst qualities of both of them and very little of the good despite the opposite being true in the manga. 10 years would only improve them, not degrade them. Vegetto entirely lacks any drive to self betterment with both his personality and his own prowess. Goku got stronger for the love of it. Vegeta wanted to be the strongest AND to surpass Goku, not JUST to surpass him.

Worse yet, DBM presents Bra in a sympathetic light by having everyone step in for her and praise her DESPITE the fact she's ACTUALLY murdered family and has only recently shown any remorse for her behavior yet somehow Vegetto keeps being presented as the bad guy on an inevitable path to corruption.

I know it's a matter of opinion but I do think it's kind of a disingenuous interpretation of Vegetto considering Vegeta was hours away at best from his full emotional growth. Being fused with Goku would hasten that if anything. 1 Replie(s)

Maybe to you but to me personally it's just kind of a massive bummer to make him kind of a psycho(like his novel) when he shouldn't be and it sucks to see him constantly get crapped on. He had one cool moment and it was against a suped up fanfic Broly who was literally invincible and got free power ups so nothing but the final blow really mattered. It didn't even knock Broly out of his Legendary state. Then he got no diffed by XXI, there was the Bra sob stories to attempt to make him look bad, Buu being overpowered, Gast one shotting him with his cheat magic, plus now we gotta figure out how Bardock's vision comes to pass.

Just seems like a waste to me. The guy was literally willing to risk it all in an attempt to save his friends and family on his debut but DBM just kind of made him a whiney brat who loses most of the time and thinks about killing his family just to get a rise out of Gohan. 2 Replie(s)