He really is a Kaka-ditz.

Honestly, its transparency would be less surprising if it was an egg. Lots of non-amniote eggs are transparent to some degree or another.
If it lays eggs in water, its eggs are probably transparent to some degree. If it lays eggs on land and those eggs are small, it could go either way.

Honestly...I would not mind if this fight was mostly skipped, with just a teaser of how Goku's fight in the finals will go.

Goku vs. Vegeta is the most predictable fight in this entire tournament, including the round 1 fights with universe 10. It's not even our Goku versus a Vegeta less familiar with Goku. It's the Goku we know from decades of Dragon Ball, fighting the Vegeta we know from decades minus four years of Dragon Ball. DBM is at its strongest when it's doing something weird and unexpected; Goku vs. Vegeta is neither.

What kind of anime do you think he's from?

Bra is never gonna live down the senzu incident, is she?

Ah, power levels.

Putting aside paratext like the Daizenshuu for now, the text of Dragon Ball doesn't offer much insight into how strong Kami is. He's demonstrably stronger than Goku the first time he trained with God, but presumably weaker than <s>Prince Piccolo</s> Piccolo Junior at the tournament. That's about all we know. After a few years of training, Piccolo was still way weaker than Raditz, and there's no indication that Kami trains regularly (the way Piccolo and the Saiyans do), so the gap between Piccolo and Kami is probably even wider than it was then.

The low-200's number claimed by the Daizenshuu makes sense. Mr. Popo, the Ox-King, etc being 4-5 times that strong...not so much. (Weren't Goku and Piccolo around 500-600 when they fought Raditz?) 1 Replie(s)

It would be extremely unusual for Bra to be able to read Gohan's mind but not Vegito's.

But yea, the dance is kinda funny. The animation makes the comic work.

I, for one, found "child molester" baffling and edgelordy rather than funny. Especially since I thought Bra's outfit looks more like the Piccolo outfit Gohan wore than it does like Piccolo's actual clothes...maybe because she doesn't have a turban?

Anyways, the "kidnapper" thing makes more sense. And "child molester" means "someone who punches a child" in the same way that "assault" means "threatening someone"—it's true in a court of law, but not in common parlance.

He's pushing his Clothes Beam technique to the limit.

Five zenni says the Saiyans assume Tao is dead, but he's rescued by the Z-fighters and gets a senzu or something.


Out of all the power level things in Dragon Ball, that's where you draw the line?


I mean, there's the obvious answer: Power levels are (supposed to be) bullsh*t, so Toriyama didn't put too much thought into them. 1 Replie(s)

Gotenks can't copyright a technique used by every elementary schooler who just learned what a loophole is and thinks he can get away with hitting someone if they "walk into" his punches. You need to make something novel in some way to copyright something—wait, I'm thinking of patents.

Well, trademark is pretty easy to bypass. Just make it clear that this is a legally-distinct attack. You know, like the difference between Superman{TM} and some strong flying guy with a cape and primary color scheme. 1 Replie(s)

There's a difference between hanging and standing. Tails are structurally more suited to the former than the latter.

Then again, fingers aren't exactly suitable for balancing your entire weight on top of either.

Well, yeah, but the majority of Saiyans who are major characters in Dragon Ball do. And when I describe something as "a neat idea," I'm probably discussing it on a Doylist level rather than a Watsonian one. And while your proposed answers aren't contradicted by canon, they're never really demonstrated either, except in zenkais vanishing with no explanation. Aside from the times they still happen.

I think the real answer of what happened with zenkais is the same as what happened to Launch. Toriyama has a memory more suited to gag manga with loose continuity than a sprawling fantasy epic. 1 Replie(s)

Zenkais are a neat idea, but in a world with several kinds of healing magic thrown around willy-nilly, they cause a lot of problems. Especially once Vegeta exploits "Get someone to almost kill me, then have the white mage fix it and make me stronger"—it seems to have worked fine then, why do they never think to intentionally do that again? Sure, they don't usually have Dende hanging around, but again, he's not the only source of healing magic in the setting. Sometimes they have a good reason to hold their healing magic in reserve, sometimes they don't have any apparent reason, and occasionally wasting all the senzu beans on zenkais would mean Goku couldn't give one to the villain trying to destroy the world. 1 Replie(s)

My headcanon is that French Vegeta was just trying to insult French Goku, but French Goku is as thick as any other Goku, so he just assumed "Cachalot" was his Saiyan name.

Imagine Vegito telling an older Bra that her first was "over" with no context.

Some people are here for the action, some people are here for the AUs; some people care about the legacy-character tournament, some people care about the OC villains; some people like Son Bra, some people are sensible.

But if there's one thing everyone here likes about DBM, it's the passion that everyone involved in its creation has for the source material. 1 Replie(s)

Yeah, he Son/Briefs family is a lot more screwy than the Son/Satan one. Doesn't help that Vegetto inherited both Goku's and Vegeta's flaws, both of which are only exacerbated when you're the strongest being in your universe (and probably in the top ~5 in the multiverse).

Well, at least Son Bra shows enough restraint not to actually attack someone in the middle of their monologue.

In Soviet West City, Son Bra absorbs Buu!

Yeah...if DBM was the product of a bunch of properly-organized artists instead of just Salagir, Asura, and whatever artists decide to volunteer their effort for something-or-other this month, the bonus chapters would have come out in a very different order.


Excellent catch, thank you!

The joke isn't "Babidi et al beat the heroes," it's the absurdity of the situation. I feel like the comic would be funnier if it had ended with Babidi getting pissed that Giran only got 1% of the energy he needed, but as it is, it isn't nothing.

Not all anime nose-bleeds are from that. Some are from getting punched in the face.


Kinda hard to judge the "story" of an episodic 4koma series...they generally don't try to tell a story.

I find the humor to be kinda flat, but not cringeworthy. If there's any cringe, it's in the optics of hosting a regular comic centered around DBM's most divisive character. (Please note the if and use it as an excuse not to get into arguments about whether this comic was a mistake or not.)

I don't blame whoever wrote this comic for ignoring the "Broly only transformed because Goku cried a lot" plot point...

I wonder what Salagir et al think of the new Broly movie. I know I liked it, but I'm also coming at this fandom from basically the opposite direction.

It's a shame that U10 Vegeta bailed before he had a chance to kill Kakarot.

I wonder if Raichi's Ghost Vegeta will get a chance. Or maybe Vegetto? Basically, I think Vegetas killing U13 Kakarot would be a funny running gag if it happened more.

Eh. Considering that one of the criticisms* fans had about Resurrection F was that Frieza gaining so much power after just four months of training, a comic about how far behind the curve he was by Battle of Gods aged pretty neutrally. I don't think Salagir actually expected Frieza to literally show up and start fighting Goku and friends without any kind of power-up.

*In my opinion, a relatively minor one compared to "Super Cyan is completely unearned (and has a ridiculous, unwieldy official name)," "Beerus and Whis's presence kills any tension the movie could have had," and "Nothing of consequence happens aside from introducing a few new paint jobs for merch". But it's still common, and is still a decent point.

I'm inclined to agree, but I'm also not surprised that he hasn't been given much focus.

If I might be so bold as to reverse engineer Salagir's thought processes for writing DBM the way he did...It's difficult to maintain tension in a straightforward tournament arc. Sometimes it's possible to just sell the audience on how much it means to the characters and telling compelling character-driven stories within the structure of the format (see HeroAca and most sports anime), but that's tricky, and all the harder when you're writing in a universe where the potential extermination of humanity is less of an extreme crisis and more business as usual. (This is probably why we've had three or four separate occasions where contestants tried to subvert/take over the tournament by force.)

This specific tournament arc also threatens to be predictable. We know more or less what Cell, or Broly, or even Zen Buu can do, and their motives are equally transparent. There are a few ways Salagir can shake this kind of thing within the strict bonds of canon—finding out that Captain Ginyu was in someone else's body was one of Salagir's best plot ideas, in my opinion—but it's hard to maintain suspense when everyone's power levels are so well-known. Nobody expected 17 to beat up Goku, or Tenshinhan to defeat Zen Buu, or probably even Cell to beat up Vegeta. We know these characters, we know what they can do.

XXI solves both of these problems. Introducing an enigmatic, sinister entity like XXI obviously makes the tournament less predictable, because we don't know what he can do or what he wants. He also introduces tension, because he probably wants to do something bad. But he can only be as effective as he is—or at least, effective in the way he is—because we know almost nothing about him. At the risk of accidentally insulting Salagir, if we knew who XXI was, he'd only be a compelling antagonist if he was interesting.

And here's an unvarnished compliment for Salagir's writing: Mysterious villains are not as simple to write as they seem. If you give the audience too little information about a villain, they stop being an intriguing mystery and start being boring. Salagir threaded that needle nicely. I kinda wish his fight with Zen Buu had revealed a bit more about him than what he looks like (his fights with Vegetto and 18 had already revealed that he could cast powerful spells and get solutions tailored to his opponents, so a powerful spell tailored to his opponent wasn't very enlightening), especially since we're getting so close to the climax (only three more matches before the finals)...but that's a relatively minor gripe compared to how poorly many other series have handled their enigma villains. At least XXI seems to be acting consistently.

Anyways, yeah. The original characters* are really neat, and I wish DBM focused on them more. U19 works great as a motivation for our characters to win the tournament (beyond "If I lose, I won't get to fight as many strong guys!"), and I can't help but feel like I'K'L is going to be a big Chekhov's Gun somehow, but I wish there was more.

*And to a lesser extent, the ways that different universes' versions of various characters are different from their canon selves, when they do differ. For all the crap I give U16 Bra, you're never going to confuse her with any other version of the character. Contrast U16 Gohan and U18 Gohan; they didn't even wear different outfits to the tournament.

Bra has a lot of fans, but also a lot of detractors. She's the embodiment of what some people love about DBM, and what others (like me) wish would just go away so the comic can focus on interesting what-if scenarios instead of seeing how high we can push power levels.
She reminds me of Z-era Broly, actually—loved by some fans for being cool and strong, hated by others for not having much else going on and some highly questionable writing choices. (While I don't think any individual Bra-writing choice is anywhere near as bad as Broly wanting vengeance on Kakarot for crying when they were babies, Bra also has more actual plot focused on her than Z-Broly did, which leaves space for annoying plot points to stack up.)

Anyways, I think that publishing/hosting a separate comic series centered around Bra is an...unexpected choice, to put it kindly. But at the same time, U16 and Bra in specific are a pretty good point to focus on if you're going to parody DBM. The parts of DBM that are parodiable are, for the most part, present in Son Bra.
The concept of Chibi Son Bra has plenty of potential, and while nothing in this comic indicates that the comic's going in the direction I'm hoping, there's also nothing to suggest it won't. So I'm going to remain optimistic for now.

And in my opinion, any story in which you can so definitively quantify how much stronger someone is—and say with utter certainty that the strong character is going to win, every time, unless the weak character suddenly gets stronger—is stupid.



Oh good, I'm not alone.


Yes, but it's hard to imagine Gohan doing anything Bra did. That's why Vegetto choking Gohan is so much more significant than him choking Bra would be—or even choking Goten or Trunks, because they're basically the dualistic Bart Simpsons of the Son-Briefs family.


Yeah, I also think that they should have chosen a release format that fits how they want to pace their story.


That's...basically everyone who made it through the prelims. Looking at everyone who wasn't eliminated in the first two rounds, Frieza, Android 18, and maybe U13 Kakarot are the only ones I wouldn't expect to crush a kaioshin. (And some fighters I'd peg as god-level were eliminated earlier due to unfortunate seeding.)
It's not impossible, but I suspect Buu's standards are a little higher.

Every Goku (and half-Goku) combined has less common sense than any one of their kids. Geez.

You know, if Buu didn't intervene directly and just let the Saiyans object to the tournament's cancellation, he'd probably have a better shot at arranging that god-tier tournament.


Depends on where the line between god and not-god is drawn. If it's somewhere between King Kai and the kaioshins, then basically everyone who didn't slink out of the tournament before the first round ended counts. If it's drawn right above the kaioshins, then I expect anyone stronger than Piccolo would count, which includes most adult Saiyans and Gotenks. (And majins, Gast, probably Cell and Ginyu-Cold...) If it's drawn somewhere above, say, Pan or non-Zen Buu, I don't know what god he's comparing it to.


Not going to agree or disagree with the sentiment, but I'm gonna argue with how you phrased it. How on Earth is comparing a plot point to fanfic a meaningful statement in a fandom with Future Trunks?

1. He became a Super Saiyan with ease, at a time when the Super Saiyan was a singular prophesied Chosen One and not the hair color everyone used to fight.
2. He easily defeated both the then-strongest villain in the franchise and his never-before-mentioned father.
3. He's the future son of two characters who had barely interacted before that point.
4. The plot he introduces isn't just Dragon Ball Terminator, but it takes an awful lot of overt cues from a then-recent blockbuster. I mean, it makes sense for a bunch of robots to threaten ordinary Earth, but an Earth where people capable of blowing up planets exist?


I'm genuinely curious about whether I'K'L is a one-shot joke character or a Chekhov's Gun. At this point, we know so little about I'K'L and...his?...mother that any Chekhoving would come off as a Deus ex Machina more than anything.


...I thought those were just his legs. Does Buu actually wear clothes?

Even if SSJ3 Vegetto was an order of magnitude stronger than Zen Buu, the latter would still have an advantage—both because SSJ3 is said to drain Vegetto's reserves in less than a minute, and more relevantly because of the ridiculous variety of powers Buu has. Even ignoring everything Zen Buu's learned since leaving Earth, just basic Buu has powers ranging from regeneration and minor shapeshifting to transmuting things into other things (usually food). And if you account for everything Zen Buu learned since then, his power exceeds even the gods' in every conceivable way. Heck, he's even said that the Dragon Balls are worthless to him, since he can grant his own wishes better than those balls can.

DBZ usually leans on raw strength overpowering other forms of power, but DBM doesn't do that as badly. The very existence of XXI should prove that. He quite possibly has zero conventional fighting ability, but curbstomps everyone by having the right power to cripple them.


I don't think it's confusing, and I don't think "at last" fits either.

"Of course I overcame my only weakness" is basically making fun of anyone who expected him to not find a way around his one weakness. "Of course something like that wouldn't affect me now. What, do you think I'm some kind of moron?" 1 Replie(s)

The detail definitely contributes, but...well, I'm not 100% sure whether all the other Vargas are wearing the same clothes as each other. The technician has an accessory and a hairstyle! You can actually get a sense of personality from the design alone!

> Various: Vargas looks like Mei Hatsune
She has a ponytail instead of dreadlocks(?), but otherwise...yeah, good catch. I disagree with the people disparaging Asura for the derivative character design—she's a bit character, I'd be surprised if we saw her beyond the next page or so, she doesn't need a super-original design.

If I was gonna criticize uninspired character design I'd point out that basically everybody looks identical to their U18 versions. Hardly so much as a new or different accessory. Like, imagine if Bra kept breakig U16 Gohan's glasses, so he started wearing contacts when he was training/substitute parenting her, and he never stopped. As it so happens, U16 Gohan takes fighting a bit more seriously, and the Adult Gohan we're familiar with takes his glasses off when he fights seriously. A very small character design detail that conveys character history and detail. Nothing like that is present in most DBM universes. Frig, Vegetto never changed out of his fusion gi!


I'd take this a step further. Most of the fights wouldn't be interesting even if you didn't know who was going to win, because there's no reason to care about most of the characters and few potential setpieces. Most of them are just two canon characters, often ones who fought in canon. What can you do with that?
The Bardock special was interesting because Bardock leading the Saiyans to victory against Frieza gave the reader some basic dramatic investment (by introducing us to a bunch of Saiyans) and by the fact that Saiyans beating Frieza actually requires interesting tactics. (And pretty well-written tactics! Better than, say, Future Gohan beating Babidi's bunch through several rounds of good fortune.)

I'm not saying that the other special writers were worse, by the way. I guess I'm just saying that half a dozen "canon, but Villain X wins" universes don't leave a lot of room for interesting specials. (And universes like 9 and 19 with radically different histories don't get as many specials, sadly.)


The only time we've seen Super stuff so much as referenced is Beerus and Whis showing up on one page, asking about the Super Saiyan God, and getting bored. And Battle of Gods was technically a Z movie, so arguably that's not even Super.
Plus, the multiverse seen in this comic is more or less incompatible with Super's, and nobody acts like the events of Super happened. Aside from the obvious lack of god transformations: nobody references the <i>other</i> multiverse or references its characters, nobody treats Frieza like a potential threat, Future Trunks's timeline exists, Future Mai doesn't, no characters from Super are referenced (or invited)...
Unsurprisingly, the continuity which didn't exist until several years after DBM was planned and published has basically no influence on DBM. (And I vaguely remember that Salagir didn't like Super? Don't quote me on that, find someone else to quote.) 1 Replie(s)

I wouldn't call her cute, but I really like her design. It has more...I dunno, character than most Vargas do.

In news news, that Universe 3 special sounds interesting. Unless it starts after King Piccolo and Kami fused and just shows them beating up Badidi's goons or something, but surely the author wouldn't do that to us when there's such an obvious unique plot point to cover...? 1 Replie(s)

Hm. That last speech bubble kinda feels like the opposite of what he was saying last page. It sounded like he was building up to "Who are we to judge the inhabitants of the multiverse?", but now he's backed off to "We have to follow Zen Buu's judgements, because he's strong enough to enforce them."

Generously, it might be that the Grand Kaioshin was trying to make a moral argument on previous pages, and once his fellow kaioshins attacked that argument fell back on the real reason he was acceding to Buu's demands. But at this time, that's not conveyed particularly well. Maybe the response to his "We can't stop him!" argument will make things come together?

Either this sequence is a colossal mess, or it was wrecked by needing to break it into page-sized bits.


That's not fair. He isn't handing over his power to anyone, he just thinks that the piece of bubble gum has power that renders his own irrelevant.


Why would he be Kid Buu? Canon Buu didn't revert to Kid Buu after being unsealed. 1 Replie(s)

The problem with this sort of sarcastic argument is that I have no idea what you're actually trying to argue. Are you trying to ridicule the idea of Dragon Ball properties having morality beyond kill or be killed, or the idea that Dragon Ball doesn't have relativistic morality?


"I don't have any evidence that the frost babies were doing something wrong, but I'm willing to assume they were for some reason. Maybe the novel proves me right."
Honestly, with this kind of opening I shouldn't bother with the rest of the argument. That's a mortal wound in your argument, even if I were to accept that a child can be genetically predisposed to monstrosity like you say Broly is. But I'd like to point out something else wrong with your argument:


*I never accused the kaioshins of going after their ideological enemies!* I accused them of killing innocent babies to maintain their cosmic order. Your only beef with that argument seems to be saying that Broly could never be considered innocent and that the frost babies probably did something, maybe, don't judge the kaioshins just because it doesn't seem like there could be any justification for what they did. I'm not sure if you didn't read my actual arguments or if you did and decided to attack a strawman instead, but neither is a good look for you.

[quote from="A bunch"]Why are we discussing morality in Dragon Ball?[/quote]
I hate this take. First off, this is barely more than the Eurypthro Dilemma. "Do gods decide what is moral?" is not just a moral question that was more or less settled thousands of years ago, it's one that was settled in such a straightforward way that it's taught in entry philosophy classes. It's Eurypthro plus a side course of "Is it okay to kill babies if some might grow into Super-Hitler?"

Second, Dragon Ball have never been solely about dumb fight scenes. It has themes, some of which are delivered more subtly than others. Hell, characters have even outright discussed philosophy before! It was philosophy centered around martial arts and self-improvement, but it was still philosophy. A French fan bringing up basic Western philosophy in a Dragon Ball work is no more out of place than an apple pie or cheeseburger would be. It could be done better, but considering Sturgeon's Law, it could be done a lot worse! (For instance, there's a perfectly good in-universe explanation for why the Grand Kaioshin is giving a speech now—he's on trial, not in a fight!)

Third, a lot of these arguments imply that media (or certain types of media) should actively avoid philosophical topics. That they should be concerned with nothing more than appealing art, technically coherent plot points, and/or cheap thrills. I don't think that's a healthy mindset to view any media through, not even webcomic fanfiction of a children's comic book series. It's good if a story is thrilling, if its plot is coherent, if its art is appealing...but it is also good if a story can do more than that. I'm glad Salagir tried, and I'm glad that he didn't fail as hard as he could have.

Look, I'm not saying this philosophy is super nuanced, or that I couldn't poke holes in it if I tried, but it's nowhere near as bad as y'all are saying.


Not really comparable, considering the interventions they were doing...


We saw them kill Frieza, Cooler, and Broly as infants. Sure, we know that those people would go on to use their power for evil, but they didn't. They were just killing powerful babies.


Disney, Microsoft, Amazon, and other companies attempting monopolistic practices: "Why would you want to stop that?"

I agree with the goal you're discussing, but the kaioshins' methods for achieving that goal kinda suck. Protecting universal peace is good; protecting universal order by slaughtering anyone you consider a potential threat to it is not. The latter just turns you into the big fish.


If the gods were good at their jobs*, we wouldn't have a story.

*And also good people, but that's not as much of an issue right now


Baffling to see this take right now. This is a pretty mild page, all things considered. The Grand Kaioshin's argument isn't great, but it's at least coherent. And it wasn't so long ago that we saw the...messy conclusion to Bra's part in the Majin Rebellion Arc.

(Also, I disagree with the first half of the statement. It has an awesome premise, but the multiverse concept only goes so far when almost half of the universes are inhabited by characters virtually unchanged from canon except in their win-rate and the details of their powers. It was)


Zen Buu: "Maybe you should stop trying to control the universe by killing babies."
Grand Kaioshin: "Yes, that seems like a good idea."
Gokrillnu: "Zen Buu is turning Kaio into more of a multi-universal dictator."


I wouldn't phrase it quite like that—the problem isn't the amount of text so much as the lack of anything else—but...yeah. The composition is purely functional.


I can't exactly blame Gogetto or Kerosinelamp20h for reacting like they did to your use of "slave morality". It's a term invented by someone who looked down on any moral system that conflicted too much with his own. First off, this means that the category might not make much actual sense; Nietzche lumps all Western philosophy since the early 4th century together under this term. Second, it means there are a lot of implicit assumptions in the term that might not stand up to scrutiny, like the idea that all post-Christian moral philosophy bubbled up from the oppressed class and infected the rulers somehow. Third, it means your argument is rooted in an intellectual tradition that says the only reason people think altruism is good is that they or their intellectual forefathers despised their overlords for their unique willingness to think and act for themselves, which is the reason that kings and such came into and stayed in power.

Imagine if my negaverse counterpart came in and started quoting Ayn Rand definitions in the middle of this conversation. Even if the rest of his arguments weren't overtly Randian, relying on Randian terminology to define and explain my position would be reason enough to view his arguments through a Randian lens, and note that Rand's influence means the foundation of his arguments were rotten.


Depending on who you ask, either Vegetto is a horrible father who traumatized his poor innocent daughter by threatening to kill her, or he's responsible for inflicting her on the world. Either way, he doesn't come off looking too good, especially given what seems to be a pretty negligent parenting style (from what we've seen, his half-son was a better father to Bra than Vegetto was).

And to end on a lighter note...


Is there an abandoned fan manga 1,987 pages long that previously held the record? 2 Replie(s)

I like the philosophy in general. Killing kids because they could grow into threats is bad, actually! We saw examples like Bibidi, Frieza, and Broly that we know would grow to destroy worlds, but how many others did they kill who would never have used their power to do harm—or who would never have awakened their perilous power at all?

I'm not sure how it justifies treating Zen Buu specifically with the ridiculously light touch the Grand Kaioshin has. He demonstrated a willingness and ability to f*k with every innocent civilian in the arena, and that should at the very least be discouraged. But perhaps there's more to this explanation, who knows.

Man, "nested quotes" get tough to read if you don't clean 'em periodically.
Anyways, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that rambling on about something only tangentially related to your point when just a sentence or two would provide all needed context is unreasonable. It would be one thing if this was a casual conversation over dinner or something, but this is a very important and potentially time-sensitive conversation.



Bulma married someone who tried to kill several of her friends (and arguably had a direct hand in the death of her previous boyfriend). Death is not a serious topic in this universe, especially when you've got spare Dragon Balls on hand.


Alright, there are some serious problems with this analysis.

First off, I'm willing to just trust all characters who seem to think Vegeta could have blown up the Earth.

Second, your physics are wrong.
The Moon is about a quarter the diameter of the Earth, but the gravitational binding energy (the minimum energy you would need to add to a body to make it no longer gravitationally bound to itself) is not proportional to diameter. The binding energy is equal to 3GM^2/5r, where M is the object's mass, r its radius, and G the gravitational constant. (And 3 is 3.) Mass is proportional to the cube of radius, assuming a constant density, so binding energy is proportional to the fifth power of radius (or diameter). This suggests that the moon's gravitational binding energy would be closer to a thousandth of Earth's, not a quarter. (And the Moon is actually less dense than Earth—its actual gravitational binding energy is about 1/1800th of Earth's.)

But this assumes Master Roshi and Piccolo added the minimum energy required to make the moon come apart. But if that were the case, the Moon wouldn't just vanish instantly. If you added the Moon's gravitational binding energy to it in the right way, you would accelerate every bit of the moon to its escape velocity—about 2.4 km/s. At that speed, it would take about twelve minutes for the Moon to double in radius; it would still be visible in the sky for quite a while thereafter. Adding a hundred times the GBE would make the moon shrapnel move ten times faster, and hence be visible for a tenth the time; enough energy to make the Moon explode as quickly as Master Roshi and Piccolo did might well exceed Earth's binding energy already!

In conclusion, Master Roshi could probably blow up the Earth, just not as spectacularly as Vegeta. I hope you appreciate the physics lesson. 1 Replie(s)

To be fair to عمار, it sounds like this explanation is leading up to something like "Buu and I are friends and that's why I let him run free after trying to conquer the arena". If there's a good reason, most of this page's dialogue would be irrelevant to it.

To be even fairer to عمار, that doesn't mean the Grand Kaioshin doesn't have a good reason that he's just taking unreasonably long to get to.


I'm pretty sure the divergence point for U4 is set after the Human Extinction Attack. So unless Vegeta blew up multiple inhabited worlds under Frieza, Buu's kill-count is higher. (Filler Vegeta blew up at least one, but I'm not sure about canon.) And if Vegeta did blow up multiple inhabited worlds, that would put his kill count higher than basically anyone else in the series except Frieza, so this argument would imply that Cell, Cooler, and King Piccolo are less evil than Vegeta (since they don't have nine-digit kill counts).

I'm not saying that Zen Buu is the force of pure evil some people treat him as, I'm saying your argument that he isn't is incoherent. The conclusion does not follow from the premises.


The Grand Kaioshin has been alive for millions of years, and Zen Buu has absorbed an unknown number of creatures and their memories. Zen Buu has far more knowledge and (secondhand) experience than any mortal in the universe, and the kaioshin is orders of magnitude beyond that. That's not even getting into how creatures capable of exchanging a dozen years' worth of conversation in the space of a second probably form more thoughts and memories per year of their existence than us mere mortals.

But Dragon Ball Super introduces GodTube, so it's entirely possible they were discussing Internet videos of some kind. 2 Replie(s)

First off, I'm not treating a small detail of a vision that Salagir didn't write as evidence to the accuracy of the visions he did. Having Bardock's visions be perfectly accurate is far from the biggest change Salagir made to DBZ (deutero)canon; heck, it's not even the biggest change he made to Bardock and his visions! (That would be how the fish guy passed on the prophecy powers, which for the record I think is a positive change.)
Second off, I'm pretty sure Salagir has literally said everything in the vision is going to take place.


I won't say I consider it a satisfying conclusion—the nicest thing I can say about it is that it's the obvious shortcut—but I don't find it actively unrealistic that Buu wouldn't find a counter to a highly specialized (and possibly un-counterable) spell only known by one dead guy.

It's a bit anticlimactic, though—I was hoping for something a bit more creative. XXI went for the most obvious solution possible for 18, and a more interesting one for Vegetto. I was hoping we'd get something even more interesting for Zenbuu, but instead we got the magical version of 18's off switch.


I wouldn't say just a knowledge-dragon. Unless you're saying XXI built an android-shut-down-ing remote in his room? But it could be substantially less powerful than Shenron, Porunga, etc, which would be more than enough reason for him to want a single wish.

I might as well speculate on the last few fights.


In conclusion, it's weird that XXI's name isn't pronounced "twenty-one". 1 Replie(s)

...how are you going to arrest the head god of the hosting universe? It shouldn't be hard for people on the Vegetto tier to grab him or something, but what's step 2? Where do you put him? He's God! Even if he can't magic his way out of the impromptu jail without anyone noticing, how many guards are both able and willing to keep him locked up? There is no higher rank to one could pull (without Super canon or something).



If Buu could speak, he could make that argument. But nobody's about it make it for him.


Pretty much. For all of Buu's strength, magic, and knowledge, he went down like any musclebrained Saiyan or poorly-maintained android. 1 Replie(s)

"How do you know the formula?"
"Same way I got the android deactivation remote and the spell that sent you to a time-dilated dimension: Nunya."
"...Nunamai business?"
"Precisely." 1 Replie(s)

The web page's smoke effect is slightly annoying, but cool. I hope it's intended to stick around on this specific page permanently, if only so future archive-bingers aren't baffled by what the hell we're talking about.

And for the people who say they don't care about XXI because he's fanmade...so what? If I wanted to see canon characters fight each other in a tournament setting, I'd watch one of Dragon Ball's tournament arcs again. (Or maybe try the manga versions.) The fanfic stuff is what I'm here for. 1 Replie(s)

Cassandra's visions of doom would be more impressive if she'd told anyone about them more than 30 seconds before the doom got there.

Fun fact about spaghettification—it's more dangerous near small black holes than big ones.

Spaghettification isn't caused by anything unique to black holes; it's just tidal forces. The Earth could "spaghettify" the Moon if it came within about 11,500 miles. Black holes just have enough gravity that their tidal forces can be really strong.

But tidal forces aren't proportional to gravitational acceleration—they're proportional to the difference in acceleration between your head and feet. Broly would feel at least twice the spaghettifying force as an ordinary Saiyan, because he's like 10 or 15 feet tall.

Let's do some math to explain how this works. Let's say Broly is ten feet tall, floating "upside-down" with his head ten feet from a micro black hole. His head is half as far from the singularity as his feet, so it experiences 2² or four times the gravitational force. If he drifts five feet closer, his head will be three times as close and experience nine times the acceleration.

Why do I bring this up? Well, big black holes have big event horizons—more than you might expect from their mass. (Most bodies' radii grow proportional to the cube root of their mass, but a black's event horizon grows <I>linearly</I>.)

So the bigger a black hole gets, the closer the spaghettification point gets to the "edge" of the black hole, even as it grows farther from the center. Supermassive black holes' event horizons are so massive that the tidal forces at the event horizon are positively mild.

For most purposes, this wouldn't matter; the gravitational forces right above the event horizon are still powerful enough that even light can only escape if it's going close to straight up. But teleportation changes this...

TL;DR: Buu should have teleported Broly next to a small black hole. Or just dropped him well under the event horizon.

This art style is practically the polar opposite of the Toriyama-inspired style of most of the comic, but it's so good at conveying the contrast between Goku the loving grandfather and Goku the savage warrior.

Point 1: Kakarot must have killed Kami before King Piccolo could be released, because that's a <i>much</i> more obvious comparison. (Now we can check off the obvious joke.)

Points 2 through ???: Power levels.

I haven't been able to find the quote, but Toriyama supposedly said the point of power levels was that they were unreliable/useless/bullshit. If true, this was undermined by the other thing he used power levels for—informing the reader how strong the bad guys were, relative to previous bad guys and (to a lesser extent) the heroes. (It's easy to make this sound like mockery, but I actually think this is a perfectly fine use for power levels.) This requires power levels to be reliable at least for the bad guys...and the way heroes' power levels were measured—in particular, how their power levels surge right before they start beating up the bad guys—makes it seem less like power levels are bullshit and more like Earthlings know how to weaken themselves.

But accuracy during a saga and a half isn't the only reason they caught on—power levels reflect a reality of the series dating back at least to King Piccolo and the Ultra Convenient Plot Device (and arguably to Mercenary Tao). Strength is usually the most important factor in fight outcomes, and it can be described straightforwardly. Goku is stronger than Krillin, Krillin is stronger than Yamcha. Goku <i>was</i> weaker than King Piccolo, but then he went to Korrin's place and became stronger. Cell was weaker than Piccolo, so he ate a bunch of dudes to boost his strength. The way Dragon Ball handles power suits itself unusually well to a numerical system.

That said, I think a lot of fans get a bit too obsessed with the numbers. I get it—hell, I wrote up a series of estimates of DBM characters' power levels back in the day. Playing with numbers is fun! But it's easy to get carried away and care too much about bullshit numbers about fictional characters. I think it's a little silly that Salagir reduced the oozaru power multiplier, and that he thinks Nappa's panic makes sense as a reaction to Goku being about as strong as he is, but at the end of the day...it's just power levels.

Hm, didn't expect to see Lord Slug in Multiverse. But he is one of the fairly rare villains who knows about the Dragon Balls without needing to hear about them from Earthlings (or other characters who heard about them from Earthlings, etc). Should be interesting...

This is <u>exactly</u> the kind of thing that a DBM special should be. Not a movie story adjusted to fit later canon (and Salagir's headcanon/made-up stuff*), not a version of canon events only differing in ways that let the villains win; instead, an original self-contained story built around what makes each of the universes unique and interesting.

Also no U16 Bra, which is always nice.


*I'm not criticizing Salagir for using his headcanons in this comic, or even making stuff up for it. (Aside from the stuff that's just kinda silly, like Buu being dumb because the Grand Kaioshin lobotomized himself or the Legendary Super Saiyan form being invulnerable and its power constantly increasing, but I'd criticize that for being kinda silly, not for being made-up.) That's fine! But it's not a good enough reason to justify retelling a mediocre story.