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TheSloppaSituation
7 Juni
CompactCoven was saying:
TheSloppaSituation was saying: That comparison to Goku is a ludicrous false equivalency. Goku killed somebody working for a evil world conquering army that was actively attempting to kill him, and declared an intention to kill a monstrous demonspawn that just killed his best friend. Neither of these things are evil acts.
Beating up an old kaioshin who wasn't making any attempt to attack and was instead simply trying to explain himself is an incredibly evil action. Self-defense is not evil, nor is wanting to kill demonspawn. Beating up the wisest force for good in the cosmos however is very much evil.
I get wanting to defend the plot beats of the story, but this isn't how I'd do it.
Also, having a pure heart is not the same as having a good heart. It's all about having dark intentions.
The "old kaioshin who wasn't making any attempt to attack" was plotting to use his newly empowered warrior to kill a fellow competitor. He's no different from someone like Babidi. South knows that the Kais aren't infallible as well, after seeing what Grand Supreme Kai did
King Kindred was saying: Warsuits that they have prior to the tournament and came in that way. Everyone, besides those gifted power by Zen Buu have been relying in their strengths, techniques, and what they already have.
Cell hid the fact that he was making his Cell Jr stronger because he knew it was cheating. The Vargas definitely needed to set up some anti-magic cameras in these apartments.
The Ultras were able to send out for the Ultra armors in the middle of the tournament and had them shipped in. So if getting new equipment shipped in is fine (as determined by the Ultras), and getting given knowledge of opponents in advance is fine (South Kai vs Buu), then there's really nothing against the rules that he did. It's not clear whether he knew that Pocket Dimension trick in advance, but we've only ever seen XXI wish for knowledge of "how to win easily", except the one time he tried to learn new magic and was denied, so it's more likely all he got was information and equipment.
What Cell did WAS against the rules, because he basically just swapped in a new fighter, but the Vargas seemed to have been saying "they're not supposed to accept" the delay of 1 minute Cell was requesting. It's made more clear with his next sentence saying they could've done this earlier
If giving power boosts really was against the rules, South would've interjected for sure back then
iron leaf was saying: People criticize the publication of a page as being the same as the publication of a whole chapter. We know there's more to come, but still too often people act as if the latest published page is the last page of the chapter.
It's been a problem especially in this chapter. I know comments like that appear on other pages too, but it feels like every page, there's some massive unverified assumption made about how "this page ruined the whole plot" that's completely different from the last page
Beating up an old kaioshin who wasn't making any attempt to attack and was instead simply trying to explain himself is an incredibly evil action. Self-defense is not evil, nor is wanting to kill demonspawn. Beating up the wisest force for good in the cosmos however is very much evil.
I get wanting to defend the plot beats of the story, but this isn't how I'd do it.
Also, having a pure heart is not the same as having a good heart. It's all about having dark intentions.
The "old kaioshin who wasn't making any attempt to attack" was plotting to use his newly empowered warrior to kill a fellow competitor. He's no different from someone like Babidi. South knows that the Kais aren't infallible as well, after seeing what Grand Supreme Kai did
King Kindred was saying: Warsuits that they have prior to the tournament and came in that way. Everyone, besides those gifted power by Zen Buu have been relying in their strengths, techniques, and what they already have.
Cell hid the fact that he was making his Cell Jr stronger because he knew it was cheating. The Vargas definitely needed to set up some anti-magic cameras in these apartments.
The Ultras were able to send out for the Ultra armors in the middle of the tournament and had them shipped in. So if getting new equipment shipped in is fine (as determined by the Ultras), and getting given knowledge of opponents in advance is fine (South Kai vs Buu), then there's really nothing against the rules that he did. It's not clear whether he knew that Pocket Dimension trick in advance, but we've only ever seen XXI wish for knowledge of "how to win easily", except the one time he tried to learn new magic and was denied, so it's more likely all he got was information and equipment.
What Cell did WAS against the rules, because he basically just swapped in a new fighter, but the Vargas seemed to have been saying "they're not supposed to accept" the delay of 1 minute Cell was requesting. It's made more clear with his next sentence saying they could've done this earlier
If giving power boosts really was against the rules, South would've interjected for sure back then
iron leaf was saying: People criticize the publication of a page as being the same as the publication of a whole chapter. We know there's more to come, but still too often people act as if the latest published page is the last page of the chapter.
It's been a problem especially in this chapter. I know comments like that appear on other pages too, but it feels like every page, there's some massive unverified assumption made about how "this page ruined the whole plot" that's completely different from the last page
To be fair, the amount of comments complaining are somewhat justified, as it seems that with each successive page, the story is getting sillier. Characters are acting in barely justified ways in order to force the plot along, and after all the slow build-up, suddenly we're in a rapid sprint through plot points that people have been invested in for very long amounts of time, and a lot of people aren't going to be pleased with that. 2 Replie(s)
TheSloppaSituation
7 Juni
iron leaf was saying:
TheSloppaSituation was saying: Goku killed somebody working for a evil world conquering army that was actively attempting to kill him, and declared an intention to kill a monstrous demonspawn that just killed his best friend. Neither of these things are evil acts.Goku knows that he can knock out simple Red Ribbon soldiers with a single punch. He could avoid the helicopter or just break a part of the machine. He has actively decided to take the pilot's life. Goku could have told Tambourine that he will pay for what he did to Krillin. However, Goku added of his own free will that he wants to slaughter him. Which in itself indicates that he not only wants to kill him as quickly as possible, but also cruelly.
Huh, ironically Goku never tried to kill #19 or #20. You know, somebody working for a evil world conquering army that was actively attempting to kill him. And who were far stronger and more dangerous than a simple Red Ribbon pilot. who deserved to be stopped by any means possible, considering what Gero did in the Future Timeline. Or Piccolo Jr. who is a demonspawn or rather the reincarnation of Piccolo himself. But this mischievous figure only got nasty looks from Goku until it came to the tournament fight and Goku fiercely insisted that the demonspawn be treated with respect in the tournament fight itself. Yeah, so Goku doesn't really seem to care about the demonspawn thing it seems.
Huh, ironically Goku never tried to kill #19 or #20. You know, somebody working for a evil world conquering army that was actively attempting to kill him. And who were far stronger and more dangerous than a simple Red Ribbon pilot. who deserved to be stopped by any means possible, considering what Gero did in the Future Timeline. Or Piccolo Jr. who is a demonspawn or rather the reincarnation of Piccolo himself. But this mischievous figure only got nasty looks from Goku until it came to the tournament fight and Goku fiercely insisted that the demonspawn be treated with respect in the tournament fight itself. Yeah, so Goku doesn't really seem to care about the demonspawn thing it seems.
Again, this is an extremely flawed argument. He could just "break part of the machine"? First off, Goku isn't a helicopter mechanic, he wouldn't know what part to break, unless you mean breaking the blades, in which case that's in fact a far crueller and more drawn out way to kill somebody, very sadistic. He could knock out the pilot, and then the helicopter crashes, and they die, or he could avoid the machine actively firing missiles at him and pursuing him.
Killing an enemy combatant is not evil, especially not when the enemy in question is evil themselves.
Also, nice bad translation, was that a fan translation? Actively attempting to mischaracterize Goku based on a bad translation isn't particularly what I'd call solid ground for arguing. From what I understand the more accurate translation is akin to "You're Krillin's enemy, I'm going to attack and kill you!" You're also ignoring the fact that Goku became far less likely to resort to killing people after training with Kami, as a maturation of his character. It's not that killing bad people is suddenly evil.
Piccolo Junior himself literally did nothing, unless we're counting Sins of the Father in his crimes, and 19 and 20 Goku didn't exactly get a chance to show what he would do. 1 Replie(s)
TheSloppaSituation
7 Juni
iron leaf was saying:
Please no double posts. You can edit your comments at the beginning. Please use this feature.
Please don't write comments wih all caps.
Videl! No!
Okay, that's the final straw. From now on, it's inevitable. All the universes that have already left U0 will undoubtedly reappear in some way in the final arc. For some universes, it made sense to remove them from the story and send them back to their own universe. For some others, however, it just doesn't fit. And U9 is definitely one of those cases. We will definitely see U9 again. Just like U4 ZenBuu and others.
Page 2458 now makes a lot more sense in retrospect. The Varga can't find Yamcha because he was sent home by South via remote control.
MrPerson0 was saying: Also weird that the Vargas can't tell that an entire universe was sent back home. That is indeed an interesting point. I can understand why a simple Varga who is in the arena wouldn't know the details. However, it would make sense if he briefly asks in the main tower where Yamcha is and they give him information.
That begs the question. Is it automatically displayed in the computers when an entire universe has been sent away? If that's not the case, it would mean only those who were present when it happened know about it. In this case, only South and Raditz. But that would be a glaring design flaw in the machine if it didn't indicate whether an entire universe was sent away or not.
Here's how I explain it.
The two Varga in the arena wondering where Yamcha is. They haven't checked with the main headquarters in the tower at that moment. Otherwise they would be told that U9 has already been sent away.
Thiln was saying: I agree. There's a lot of mental gymnastics at play here. You could say that South has been so heavily manipulated by someone that he no longer listens to logic. ;)
Eddboy was saying: Was he lobotomized offscreen??No, on-screen on page 2482.
Pryomnicom was saying: XXI is not directly controlling anyone, seems to me to be basic manipulation. He maybe presented a message to South Kai in a way that seemed like it was I'K'L's dying wish? The Senzu he gave Vegetto is probably like Crack Cocaine for the guy, so he's gonna be even more aggrevated without a fix. Saiyans, Androids, Frost demons all just given an incentive. Another Budokai Tenkaichi is upon us with everyone that was missing last time.
Lucas was saying: "I'K'L must have meant we can trust him"?? Okay, that's a weird line. I'm guessing that in the first page of this chapter, I'K'L's energy ball did affect South somehow. But for whatever reason the message was unclear, and now South thinks that I'K'L meant the literal opposite of what he was trying to say. Can't really say that I like it, but I can tell we're lacking a vital piece of the puzzle here.
This makes a lot more sense than XXI manipulating South.
Nassif9000 was saying: tl;dr South dumb, contradictory behaviors and philosophy, someone kick his ass and shut him up please I think South is under a spell. Comparable to the Majin enslavement spell. Majin doesn't make a person evil per se, it reinforces the malevolent tendencies and suppresses all the good thoughts. South, despite being a stickler for rules per se, seems to be super obsessively doing the right thing here, like his tendencies are being amplified in the worst way at one point. He's willing to use violence, not consult anyone else, and take matters into his own hands, etc.
I'm sure we'll get an answer as to how exactly it led to this.
PrimeFighter was saying: I'm following this story to the end at this point not because I'm really excited to see how the story unfolds, but because I want closure to the decline of the writing of a story I've been reading for years. I advise you not to do that. Sunk-cost fallacy is a bad thing and does not bode well for you in the long run.
Pope Muffins was saying: Right, I think this is the page where I drop DBM, this is just ridiculous and South Kai is acting like a moronThis is a mature decision, which I support. Because there is nothing worse than falling for the sunk-cost fallacy.
SoyBear was saying: For instance; Goku's Nimbus cloud wouldn't let an evil person on it,Funny you should mention it. It was made clear that only people with pure hearts can use the cloud, otherwise they would fall through, as was the case with Roshi and Bulma. Later, Goku kills a Red Ribbon helicopter pilot in cold blood using the cloud. And when he confronts Tambourine, Goku wants to murder him in cold blood, he says so directly.
Spoiler, click to show
And yet Goku has not fallen from the cloud. What does it mean? People with pure hearts can act evil depending on the situation and still be considered a pure-hearted person per se. If we apply that to South, it would fit. South is considered a good person who only acts evil depending on the situation. Or rather, is manipulated by something.
Captain Carbonite was saying: More people calling it Lame and Disappointing before the story is even complete… let’s wait and see guys. You’ve all been wrong multiple times before because you cast judgement on one page. Yes, the problem is that many people simply don't accept DBM's concept of a webcomic. People criticize the publication of a page as being the same as the publication of a whole chapter. We know there's more to come, but still too often people act as if the latest published page is the last page of the chapter.
Please don't write comments wih all caps.
Videl! No!
Okay, that's the final straw. From now on, it's inevitable. All the universes that have already left U0 will undoubtedly reappear in some way in the final arc. For some universes, it made sense to remove them from the story and send them back to their own universe. For some others, however, it just doesn't fit. And U9 is definitely one of those cases. We will definitely see U9 again. Just like U4 ZenBuu and others.
Page 2458 now makes a lot more sense in retrospect. The Varga can't find Yamcha because he was sent home by South via remote control.
MrPerson0 was saying: Also weird that the Vargas can't tell that an entire universe was sent back home. That is indeed an interesting point. I can understand why a simple Varga who is in the arena wouldn't know the details. However, it would make sense if he briefly asks in the main tower where Yamcha is and they give him information.
That begs the question. Is it automatically displayed in the computers when an entire universe has been sent away? If that's not the case, it would mean only those who were present when it happened know about it. In this case, only South and Raditz. But that would be a glaring design flaw in the machine if it didn't indicate whether an entire universe was sent away or not.
Here's how I explain it.
The two Varga in the arena wondering where Yamcha is. They haven't checked with the main headquarters in the tower at that moment. Otherwise they would be told that U9 has already been sent away.
Thiln was saying: I agree. There's a lot of mental gymnastics at play here. You could say that South has been so heavily manipulated by someone that he no longer listens to logic. ;)
Eddboy was saying: Was he lobotomized offscreen??No, on-screen on page 2482.
Pryomnicom was saying: XXI is not directly controlling anyone, seems to me to be basic manipulation. He maybe presented a message to South Kai in a way that seemed like it was I'K'L's dying wish? The Senzu he gave Vegetto is probably like Crack Cocaine for the guy, so he's gonna be even more aggrevated without a fix. Saiyans, Androids, Frost demons all just given an incentive. Another Budokai Tenkaichi is upon us with everyone that was missing last time.
Lucas was saying: "I'K'L must have meant we can trust him"?? Okay, that's a weird line. I'm guessing that in the first page of this chapter, I'K'L's energy ball did affect South somehow. But for whatever reason the message was unclear, and now South thinks that I'K'L meant the literal opposite of what he was trying to say. Can't really say that I like it, but I can tell we're lacking a vital piece of the puzzle here.
This makes a lot more sense than XXI manipulating South.
Nassif9000 was saying: tl;dr South dumb, contradictory behaviors and philosophy, someone kick his ass and shut him up please I think South is under a spell. Comparable to the Majin enslavement spell. Majin doesn't make a person evil per se, it reinforces the malevolent tendencies and suppresses all the good thoughts. South, despite being a stickler for rules per se, seems to be super obsessively doing the right thing here, like his tendencies are being amplified in the worst way at one point. He's willing to use violence, not consult anyone else, and take matters into his own hands, etc.
I'm sure we'll get an answer as to how exactly it led to this.
PrimeFighter was saying: I'm following this story to the end at this point not because I'm really excited to see how the story unfolds, but because I want closure to the decline of the writing of a story I've been reading for years. I advise you not to do that. Sunk-cost fallacy is a bad thing and does not bode well for you in the long run.
Pope Muffins was saying: Right, I think this is the page where I drop DBM, this is just ridiculous and South Kai is acting like a moronThis is a mature decision, which I support. Because there is nothing worse than falling for the sunk-cost fallacy.
SoyBear was saying: For instance; Goku's Nimbus cloud wouldn't let an evil person on it,Funny you should mention it. It was made clear that only people with pure hearts can use the cloud, otherwise they would fall through, as was the case with Roshi and Bulma. Later, Goku kills a Red Ribbon helicopter pilot in cold blood using the cloud. And when he confronts Tambourine, Goku wants to murder him in cold blood, he says so directly.
Spoiler, click to show
And yet Goku has not fallen from the cloud. What does it mean? People with pure hearts can act evil depending on the situation and still be considered a pure-hearted person per se. If we apply that to South, it would fit. South is considered a good person who only acts evil depending on the situation. Or rather, is manipulated by something.
Captain Carbonite was saying: More people calling it Lame and Disappointing before the story is even complete… let’s wait and see guys. You’ve all been wrong multiple times before because you cast judgement on one page. Yes, the problem is that many people simply don't accept DBM's concept of a webcomic. People criticize the publication of a page as being the same as the publication of a whole chapter. We know there's more to come, but still too often people act as if the latest published page is the last page of the chapter.
That comparison to Goku is a ludicrous false equivalency. Goku killed somebody working for a evil world conquering army that was actively attempting to kill him, and declared an intention to kill a monstrous demonspawn that just killed his best friend. Neither of these things are evil acts.
Beating up an old kaioshin who wasn't making any attempt to attack and was instead simply trying to explain himself is an incredibly evil action. Self-defense is not evil, nor is wanting to kill demonspawn. Beating up the wisest force for good in the cosmos however is very much evil.
I get wanting to defend the plot beats of the story, but this isn't how I'd do it.
Also, having a pure heart is not the same as having a good heart. It's all about having dark intentions. 2 Replie(s)
TheSloppaSituation
6 Juni
I think that this is a very unsatisfying conclusion to the story arcs of more than a few characters, and I dislike it.
South Kai is such a goofy character, and I can't believe this characterization.
DB Multiverse page 2501
South Kai is such a goofy character, and I can't believe this characterization.
TheSloppaSituation
4 Juni
CompactCoven was saying:
TheSloppaSituation was saying: Seems that somebody is forgetting just how energy intensive the Buukujutsu is, sure, it's easy if you're somebody like Saiyan Saga Raditz, but when you make him too weak to do something that even Goku at the very start of Dragonball could do easily (lift up an old man), then Raditz is going to die to wild animals.
It might be standard issue after a certain point, but Tien could only fly for a limited amount of time himself, and somebody like Mercenary Tao, despite literally being a member (and brother of the founder) of the school of martial arts that invented the technique was himself incapable of using it.
And there's not "two possibilities". The block refused to let him defend himself against somebody outright doing the bidding of evil, albeit unwittingly. It doesn't care about the motive at all, it's just whether the person attacking him is "evil".
It's only limiting his power output, not his stamina
As for whether South Kai is being evil atm, we still don't know whether the block uses Raditz' perception or some evil detection. If it's the first one, it makes sense to not activate here. As for as Raditz knows, South Kai is stopping them from plotting to murder the finalist
It might be standard issue after a certain point, but Tien could only fly for a limited amount of time himself, and somebody like Mercenary Tao, despite literally being a member (and brother of the founder) of the school of martial arts that invented the technique was himself incapable of using it.
And there's not "two possibilities". The block refused to let him defend himself against somebody outright doing the bidding of evil, albeit unwittingly. It doesn't care about the motive at all, it's just whether the person attacking him is "evil".
It's only limiting his power output, not his stamina
As for whether South Kai is being evil atm, we still don't know whether the block uses Raditz' perception or some evil detection. If it's the first one, it makes sense to not activate here. As for as Raditz knows, South Kai is stopping them from plotting to murder the finalist
Ah yes, it's limiting his power output, and it's of course a good deal easier to lift yourself into the air using spiritual energy than it is to hold up an old man who is far lighter than you.
I don't quite understand why you're making this argument. Ki flight isn't an easy thing to do at all, and it's clear that the power block just stops ANY sort of action against "non evil" enemies, to the point where Raditz couldn't even defend himself. It stops Raditz from using ANY power in situations like the one he was just in, and it even prevented him from using his newfound power purely defensively which should have allowed him to have easily facetanked anything that South Supreme Kai could've dished out without needing to alert the entire tournament by powering up. 1 Replie(s)
TheSloppaSituation
4 Juni
CompactCoven was saying:
TheSloppaSituation was saying: CompactCoven was saying: jonathan_vik was saying: CompactCoven was saying:
No, he has all his strength. He just can't use it to murder civilians
He can't use it to even fight a dog. Being only able to use his powers on evil foes is more a limitation than it might seem.
Why would he need to fight a dog, he can just fly away
Not if the dog bites him and latches on.
He can't even lift a frail old man half his size thanks to Old Kai.
He's doing it with one hand though. Even if he's struggling to lift him, that's enough strength to fly in the air and shake off a dog
Although I think we're diving too far into this hypothetical. If he does get attacked by some random dude/creature, there's 2 possibilites:
A - They're good and are attacking him for murdering innocents. Which, fair. He shouldn't be allowed to use his power to fight against that, that'd be pretty evil. Or-
B - They're attacking him for no reason/because they know he can't fight back. That's pretty evil, block wouldn't activate
It's hard to speculate much further than we're already going since we don't have any information on it yet besides the fact that it didn't activate against South, who was enforcing rules they all agreed to
No, he has all his strength. He just can't use it to murder civilians
He can't use it to even fight a dog. Being only able to use his powers on evil foes is more a limitation than it might seem.
Why would he need to fight a dog, he can just fly away
Not if the dog bites him and latches on.
He can't even lift a frail old man half his size thanks to Old Kai.
He's doing it with one hand though. Even if he's struggling to lift him, that's enough strength to fly in the air and shake off a dog
Although I think we're diving too far into this hypothetical. If he does get attacked by some random dude/creature, there's 2 possibilites:
A - They're good and are attacking him for murdering innocents. Which, fair. He shouldn't be allowed to use his power to fight against that, that'd be pretty evil. Or-
B - They're attacking him for no reason/because they know he can't fight back. That's pretty evil, block wouldn't activate
It's hard to speculate much further than we're already going since we don't have any information on it yet besides the fact that it didn't activate against South, who was enforcing rules they all agreed to
Seems that somebody is forgetting just how energy intensive the Buukujutsu is, sure, it's easy if you're somebody like Saiyan Saga Raditz, but when you make him too weak to do something that even Goku at the very start of Dragonball could do easily (lift up an old man), then Raditz is going to die to wild animals.
It might be standard issue after a certain point, but Tien could only fly for a limited amount of time himself, and somebody like Mercenary Tao, despite literally being a member (and brother of the founder) of the school of martial arts that invented the technique was himself incapable of using it.
And there's not "two possibilities". The block refused to let him defend himself against somebody outright doing the bidding of evil, albeit unwittingly. It doesn't care about the motive at all, it's just whether the person attacking him is "evil". 1 Replie(s)
TheSloppaSituation
4 Juni
CompactCoven was saying:
jonathan_vik was saying: CompactCoven was saying:
No, he has all his strength. He just can't use it to murder civilians
He can't use it to even fight a dog. Being only able to use his powers on evil foes is more a limitation than it might seem.
Why would he need to fight a dog, he can just fly away
No, he has all his strength. He just can't use it to murder civilians
He can't use it to even fight a dog. Being only able to use his powers on evil foes is more a limitation than it might seem.
Why would he need to fight a dog, he can just fly away
Not if the dog bites him and latches on.
He can't even lift a frail old man half his size thanks to Old Kai. 1 Replie(s)
TheSloppaSituation
3 Juni
DestroyerOfVegetards was saying:
jonathan_vik was saying: Doesn't this mental block make Raditz kind of useless? For example, a generic guard could kick Raditz's hindquarters with ease. They are just doing their job and are trying to feed their family. Or what if Raditz faces against an animal? I'm not sure Elder Kai thought this through.
I think the mental block will exert it effect only when Raditz is the one who initiates the fight. If he attacks a bad guy, his power will come out. If he attacks the innocent, his power will be blocked.
However, when he isn't the one who starts the fight (meaning he is being attacked by someone else, good or evil), the mental block will have no effect, and he will be able to use his power for self-defense, and only for self-defense. If he has evil intention during the fight, the block will activate.
I think the mental block will exert it effect only when Raditz is the one who initiates the fight. If he attacks a bad guy, his power will come out. If he attacks the innocent, his power will be blocked.
However, when he isn't the one who starts the fight (meaning he is being attacked by someone else, good or evil), the mental block will have no effect, and he will be able to use his power for self-defense, and only for self-defense. If he has evil intention during the fight, the block will activate.
Demonstrably false, unless "Self-Defense" only applies if you let yourself get hit first, which is just silly. South Supreme Kai made it very clear that he had come to attack the two of them, and he even went out of his way to make his violent intentions towards the two of them extremely clear by roughly grabbing the Elder Kaioshin by the collar and refusing any sort of explanation for what was happening.
It would've been nice if he HADN'T made his intention to beat the shit out of the both of them extremely clear from the start to justify that sort of thing, but as it is, all XXI needs to do to kill Raditz is to get some misguided morally good moron to beat him up. 1 Replie(s)
TheSloppaSituation
1 Juni
mx1mum was saying:
TheSloppaSituation was saying: Nope, I still think this is dreadful, sorry.
Any sense of Raditz being strong now has been destroyed by him getting clowned not once, but twice.
It doesn't matter what else you do with him now, he's basically been reduced to a joke.
And the vision chapter was just utterly pointless minicomic fodder, confirmed outright?
Honestly, I wouldn't be averse to that just being moved outright from the main comic to the minicomics if it isn't at all canon to DBM and is just a gag joke.
Also, how does this work if Raditz say, just charges an attack to nuke the area?
Not that it matters anyway.
Yea I don’t know how I feel about this either. Also who defines good and evil? It’s all relative.
What if someone’s only a little evil, or insane like Kakarotto? What if someone’s a good guy but is doing something wrong?
I think the mental block would’ve been better if it just prevented him from hurting innocents or the defenseless, or maybe just implant a soft spot in him for the weak or good hearted. This however just seems inconvenient. He can pretty much just get wrecked by any good guy that feels like challenging him.
He can’t even defend himself unless the person is completely evil, even if the person hurting him is wrong in that moment.
Any sense of Raditz being strong now has been destroyed by him getting clowned not once, but twice.
It doesn't matter what else you do with him now, he's basically been reduced to a joke.
And the vision chapter was just utterly pointless minicomic fodder, confirmed outright?
Honestly, I wouldn't be averse to that just being moved outright from the main comic to the minicomics if it isn't at all canon to DBM and is just a gag joke.
Also, how does this work if Raditz say, just charges an attack to nuke the area?
Not that it matters anyway.
Yea I don’t know how I feel about this either. Also who defines good and evil? It’s all relative.
What if someone’s only a little evil, or insane like Kakarotto? What if someone’s a good guy but is doing something wrong?
I think the mental block would’ve been better if it just prevented him from hurting innocents or the defenseless, or maybe just implant a soft spot in him for the weak or good hearted. This however just seems inconvenient. He can pretty much just get wrecked by any good guy that feels like challenging him.
He can’t even defend himself unless the person is completely evil, even if the person hurting him is wrong in that moment.
I think that the best way to have explained this would've been that he couldn't use his strength against those who are pure of heart, the same enchantment that allow people to ride upon on the Nimbus.
This way, he can still fight most people, but people like Kaioshin, who embody purity and incorruptibility and people like Goku, who are just innocent to an extreme degree wouldn't be possible for him to attack.
It also wouldn't rely on a system of relativity for the "mental block" and feel nearly as asspully.
DesLife was saying:
TheSloppaSituation was saying:
Also, am I supposed to believe that this silly mental block works on those who are "good" but are being used by evil for the sake of doing evil against their knowledge/control?
What, does this mean that Raditz couldn't hurt Majin Bra?
Who decides what is good? Who decides what is bad? Raditz? Old Kai? Some magical enchantment that rates people on a black and white karmic scale?
What is good for some may not be good for others.
There's a magical cloud in DB that lets you ride it depending if you're good or bad. It isn't exactly uncharted territory for the series.
I can see the old Kai magic working in the same way.
Also, am I supposed to believe that this silly mental block works on those who are "good" but are being used by evil for the sake of doing evil against their knowledge/control?
What, does this mean that Raditz couldn't hurt Majin Bra?
Who decides what is good? Who decides what is bad? Raditz? Old Kai? Some magical enchantment that rates people on a black and white karmic scale?
What is good for some may not be good for others.
There's a magical cloud in DB that lets you ride it depending if you're good or bad. It isn't exactly uncharted territory for the series.
I can see the old Kai magic working in the same way.
Purity of heart and "good/bad" are not the same thing. Good and bad are relative concepts, but purity of heart is not. Old Kai is a good person depending on who you ask, but he does not have a pure heart.
Goku has a pure heart, but if you asked Dr. Gero, he'd tell you that he was an evil menace that needs to be crushed.
Justanotherturtle was saying:
Personally I am fine with Raditz strength so long as he is weaker than Gohan with potential unleashed but stronger than he was before the ritual. He could be slightly weaker than Android 17 and I would be fine with it. He could be stronger than Majin Buu and I'd be okay with it. I am also okay with him being unable to use his power against good people.
The main problem with this page is the author's note. Salagir tends to leave bad author's notes. He gets things wrong about canon Dragon Ball and he even gets things wrong about Dragon Ball Multiverse despite creating it (this isn't as unusual as it seems. Authors are only human, and humans make mistakes and forget things. Decent authors with humility will freely admit that they get things wrong about their own creations). This author's note basically laughs about how the 'imagination' chapter was pointless.
I remember Salagir leaving a comment saying that Frieza at 100% full power was only 4 times stronger than Frieza's third form. This is obviously false. If it were true, Goku would have only needed Kaioken times 5 to beat Frieza as he was already stronger than third form Frieza without the Kaioken, yet he couldn't prevail even with Kaioken times 20.
The main problem with this page is the author's note. Salagir tends to leave bad author's notes. He gets things wrong about canon Dragon Ball and he even gets things wrong about Dragon Ball Multiverse despite creating it (this isn't as unusual as it seems. Authors are only human, and humans make mistakes and forget things. Decent authors with humility will freely admit that they get things wrong about their own creations). This author's note basically laughs about how the 'imagination' chapter was pointless.
I remember Salagir leaving a comment saying that Frieza at 100% full power was only 4 times stronger than Frieza's third form. This is obviously false. If it were true, Goku would have only needed Kaioken times 5 to beat Frieza as he was already stronger than third form Frieza without the Kaioken, yet he couldn't prevail even with Kaioken times 20.
Salagir's discussion about powerlevels that is on his personal website is actually something that I think is still canon to Dragon Ball Multiverse, where he posits that Freeza at 100% full power only has a Power Level of 530,000, and that he was boasting about his full strength to Nail.
This is why Goku in the U8 special was able to slap Freeza about with just Kaioken despite never getting his Namek Zenkai and only using a Kaioken, and then dodge an attack from Second Form Freeza without needing Kaioken, and then take a hit from third form Freeza, too.
His website says that Super Saiyan Goku only had a Power Level of about 560,000.
Which would give Namek Goku a Power Level of 11,000 (somehow)
If those numbers are correct, then DBM characters are actually kind of extremely weak compared to the numbers most people recognize from the Daizenshuu for Freeza at 120,000,000 and Goku at 150,000,000 on Namek.
Funny to think that when Raditz says "he's way stronger than Freeza's Elite" meaning he was stronger than Ginyu still meant that he was around the level of Second Form Freeza. 1 Replie(s)
TheSloppaSituation
1 Juni
Nope, I still think this is dreadful, sorry.
Any sense of Raditz being strong now has been destroyed by him getting clowned not once, but twice.
It doesn't matter what else you do with him now, he's basically been reduced to a joke.
And the vision chapter was just utterly pointless minicomic fodder, confirmed outright?
Honestly, I wouldn't be averse to that just being moved outright from the main comic to the minicomics if it isn't at all canon to DBM and is just a gag joke.
Also, how does this work if Raditz say, just charges an attack to nuke the area?
Not that it matters anyway.
Also, am I supposed to believe that this silly mental block works on those who are "good" but are being used by evil for the sake of doing evil against their knowledge/control?
What, does this mean that Raditz couldn't hurt Majin Bra?
Who decides what is good? Who decides what is bad? Raditz? Old Kai? Some magical enchantment that rates people on a black and white karmic scale?
What is good for some may not be good for others.
Is Raditz forced into utiliatarianism now?
Because if that was the case, then the mental block shouldn't have done anything to stop him against South Kai. 4 Replie(s)
DB Multiverse page 2499
Any sense of Raditz being strong now has been destroyed by him getting clowned not once, but twice.
It doesn't matter what else you do with him now, he's basically been reduced to a joke.
And the vision chapter was just utterly pointless minicomic fodder, confirmed outright?
Honestly, I wouldn't be averse to that just being moved outright from the main comic to the minicomics if it isn't at all canon to DBM and is just a gag joke.
Also, how does this work if Raditz say, just charges an attack to nuke the area?
Not that it matters anyway.
Also, am I supposed to believe that this silly mental block works on those who are "good" but are being used by evil for the sake of doing evil against their knowledge/control?
What, does this mean that Raditz couldn't hurt Majin Bra?
Who decides what is good? Who decides what is bad? Raditz? Old Kai? Some magical enchantment that rates people on a black and white karmic scale?
What is good for some may not be good for others.
Is Raditz forced into utiliatarianism now?
Because if that was the case, then the mental block shouldn't have done anything to stop him against South Kai. 4 Replie(s)
TheSloppaSituation
25 Mei
CompactCoven was saying:
Joey21 was saying: Likely, but shouldn’t work if Kai is being evil right now. Unless XXI has magic that overrides even that somehow (he probably does)
I don't think South Kai is being evil rn, he's just enforcing the rules. So the mental blocks should be kicking in
TheSloppaSituation was saying: Not only wasn't Ultimate Raditz close to the newly transformed Super Saiyan 3 Prince Vegeta, but it genuinely seemed as if Ultimate Kakaditz was barely able to match him, too. Only able to compete against him by virtue of his immortality.
Which means that either Old Kai is full of crap about Raditz being far stronger than South Supreme Kai, or Super Saiyan 3 Prince Vegeta is at least around Super Saiyan 2 Vegito tier, if not Super Saiyan 3.
Which is just nonsensical.
The Old Kai vision chapter was an extremely weird choice that in mind.
DBM's already wonky powerscaling has finally become nonsense tier.
As other people have said, this is almost CERTAINLY the mental blocks mentioned before
I don't think South Kai is being evil rn, he's just enforcing the rules. So the mental blocks should be kicking in
TheSloppaSituation was saying: Not only wasn't Ultimate Raditz close to the newly transformed Super Saiyan 3 Prince Vegeta, but it genuinely seemed as if Ultimate Kakaditz was barely able to match him, too. Only able to compete against him by virtue of his immortality.
Which means that either Old Kai is full of crap about Raditz being far stronger than South Supreme Kai, or Super Saiyan 3 Prince Vegeta is at least around Super Saiyan 2 Vegito tier, if not Super Saiyan 3.
Which is just nonsensical.
The Old Kai vision chapter was an extremely weird choice that in mind.
DBM's already wonky powerscaling has finally become nonsense tier.
As other people have said, this is almost CERTAINLY the mental blocks mentioned before
That's not what the problem is.
The problem is Raditz actually being stronger than South Supreme Kai in the first place.
Because that means that he really should have just destroyed Super Saiyan 3 Vegeta on his lonesome, and the additional (immense) powerup that he should have received from fusing with Kakarot means that the whole "what-if" vision chapter that Old Kai had was simply nonsensical.
I truly doubt anybody is going to be satisfied if a decade in the making plot point is resolved with "lol mental blocks" and then Raditz just dies.
That's just bad writing. 3 Replie(s)
TheSloppaSituation
25 Mei
PkMario was saying:
We already saw that Ultimate Raditz wasn't close to Ssj3 Prince Vegeta, and South Kaioshin is around Ssj3 level, so no wonder Raditz got clowned, mental block or not.
The only question is why Old Kaio would tell him he's stronger. Did he make a mistake?
The only question is why Old Kaio would tell him he's stronger. Did he make a mistake?
Not only wasn't Ultimate Raditz close to the newly transformed Super Saiyan 3 Prince Vegeta, but it genuinely seemed as if Ultimate Kakaditz was barely able to match him, too. Only able to compete against him by virtue of his immortality.
Which means that either Old Kai is full of crap about Raditz being far stronger than South Supreme Kai, or Super Saiyan 3 Prince Vegeta is at least around Super Saiyan 2 Vegito tier, if not Super Saiyan 3.
Which is just nonsensical.
The Old Kai vision chapter was an extremely weird choice that in mind.
DBM's already wonky powerscaling has finally become nonsense tier. 1 Replie(s)
TheSloppaSituation
25 Mei
Oh.
Well.
There you go.
That's the resolution to "Mystic Raditz", I guess.
I don't know whether I should laugh or cry. 2 Replie(s)
DB Multiverse page 2496
Well.
There you go.
That's the resolution to "Mystic Raditz", I guess.
I don't know whether I should laugh or cry. 2 Replie(s)
TheSloppaSituation
23 Mei
What the hell?
Did South Kaioshin go senile?
"You're interfering with the destiny of Universe 13?"
What? OK, for one thing "destiny" doesn't exist whatsoever, given the context of this entire story taking place in a multiverse of literally infinite branching possibilities, but also the entire point of this tournament is 'intefering in the destiny' of a Universe! In fact, he JUST went to ask XXI to interfere in the destiny of Universe 19 with his wish!
Not to mention the fact that each and every single one of these tournaments has had its 'destiny' irreversibly altered by the mere existence of the tournament! Ginyu's existence was revealed to his 'sons', Bojack's entire gang died as a result, Babidi got petrified and Dabura was freed, Raichi is going to wipe out Bardock and King Piccolo, the Saiyans and Namekians from the primitive universe were in direct conflict...
The list goes on and on!
This can't be real.
DB Multiverse page 2495
Did South Kaioshin go senile?
"You're interfering with the destiny of Universe 13?"
What? OK, for one thing "destiny" doesn't exist whatsoever, given the context of this entire story taking place in a multiverse of literally infinite branching possibilities, but also the entire point of this tournament is 'intefering in the destiny' of a Universe! In fact, he JUST went to ask XXI to interfere in the destiny of Universe 19 with his wish!
Not to mention the fact that each and every single one of these tournaments has had its 'destiny' irreversibly altered by the mere existence of the tournament! Ginyu's existence was revealed to his 'sons', Bojack's entire gang died as a result, Babidi got petrified and Dabura was freed, Raichi is going to wipe out Bardock and King Piccolo, the Saiyans and Namekians from the primitive universe were in direct conflict...
The list goes on and on!
This can't be real.
TheSloppaSituation
21 Mei
Seems like this is a bit too easy. They'll team up with the guy they hate who screwed 18 over totally, but when Yamcha asks them to help them maybe try to stop the guy actively attempting to murder them, no dice?
That's silly.
Also
"An infinite number of reparations"
has to be the funniest bit of terrible translation that I've seen in a very long time. 1 Replie(s)
DB Multiverse page 2494
That's silly.
Also
"An infinite number of reparations"
has to be the funniest bit of terrible translation that I've seen in a very long time. 1 Replie(s)
TheSloppaSituation
12 Mei
CompactCoven was saying:
TheSloppaSituation was saying: — "Would've worked in any other situation"
Completely wrong. Because it leaves Buu completely vulnerable to destruction from attacks that can kill him. Had he played his cards correctly/been smarter, Babidi with Majin Bra could've actually spoken the incantation as a precaution against Zen Buu and had Bra destroy him like that.
Technically speaking, this would've been a complete loss for Buu if Gast decided to take action rather than yell "WAIT!!!" like a fool. He could've very easily used the technique that destroys Buu (that we know he can use) to eradicate the orb entirely, and then there's no more Zen Buu. Then he could've pointed out that pieces of Buu flew out from the audience before he was sent home, and that Buu was almost certainly plotting another takeover.
But instead he chose to do nothing and then died.
A personal choice that I would've done to make the scene work better and to make Gast less of a dum-dum would be for Gast to attempt to take action before Buu was unsealed, only for the spells Buu placed on him to automatically activate and kill him before giving him the chance.
Because otherwise it's a total loss for Buu that he only survived because Gast held the idiot ball.
Unless of course shooting the orb just sets him free early as his gas form that's much harder to destroy completely, of course
And ignoring the fact that Gast follows the rules and wouldn't just say "I think he's scheming" and shoot Buu
Completely wrong. Because it leaves Buu completely vulnerable to destruction from attacks that can kill him. Had he played his cards correctly/been smarter, Babidi with Majin Bra could've actually spoken the incantation as a precaution against Zen Buu and had Bra destroy him like that.
Technically speaking, this would've been a complete loss for Buu if Gast decided to take action rather than yell "WAIT!!!" like a fool. He could've very easily used the technique that destroys Buu (that we know he can use) to eradicate the orb entirely, and then there's no more Zen Buu. Then he could've pointed out that pieces of Buu flew out from the audience before he was sent home, and that Buu was almost certainly plotting another takeover.
But instead he chose to do nothing and then died.
A personal choice that I would've done to make the scene work better and to make Gast less of a dum-dum would be for Gast to attempt to take action before Buu was unsealed, only for the spells Buu placed on him to automatically activate and kill him before giving him the chance.
Because otherwise it's a total loss for Buu that he only survived because Gast held the idiot ball.
Unless of course shooting the orb just sets him free early as his gas form that's much harder to destroy completely, of course
And ignoring the fact that Gast follows the rules and wouldn't just say "I think he's scheming" and shoot Buu
Are you being deliberately obtuse?
Note how I said "the attack that destroys Buu" and not "a ki beam"
Also, when the remote to send Buu back home fails, it's at that point that Gast should step in in the seconds he has before Buu is freed in an attempt to destroy Buu. He should KNOW at that point that Buu is about to attempt another takeover. Especially after Fat Kai's whole wordy revelation.
But instead he does nothing and then dies.
CompactCoven was saying:
TheSloppaSituation was saying: — "Would've worked in any other situation"
Completely wrong. Because it leaves Buu completely vulnerable to destruction from attacks that can kill him. Had he played his cards correctly/been smarter, Babidi with Majin Bra could've actually spoken the incantation as a precaution against Zen Buu and had Bra destroy him like that.
Technically speaking, this would've been a complete loss for Buu if Gast decided to take action rather than yell "WAIT!!!" like a fool. He could've very easily used the technique that destroys Buu (that we know he can use) to eradicate the orb entirely, and then there's no more Zen Buu. Then he could've pointed out that pieces of Buu flew out from the audience before he was sent home, and that Buu was almost certainly plotting another takeover.
But instead he chose to do nothing and then died.
A personal choice that I would've done to make the scene work better and to make Gast less of a dum-dum would be for Gast to attempt to take action before Buu was unsealed, only for the spells Buu placed on him to automatically activate and kill him before giving him the chance.
Because otherwise it's a total loss for Buu that he only survived because Gast held the idiot ball.
Unless of course shooting the orb just sets him free early as his gas form that's much harder to destroy completely
And ignoring the fact that Gast follows the rules and wouldn't just say "I think he's scheming" and shoot Buu
And ignoring that Babidi doesn't want to risk cocooning his own Buu
This would require Assassinating Gast's character by turning him from a silent warrior who respects the will of the organizers into a bloodlusted vigilante who acts on a whim, retconning Babidi's statements, retconning the way the cocoon works, and having the organizers not send him back for attacking a fellow competitor
Completely wrong. Because it leaves Buu completely vulnerable to destruction from attacks that can kill him. Had he played his cards correctly/been smarter, Babidi with Majin Bra could've actually spoken the incantation as a precaution against Zen Buu and had Bra destroy him like that.
Technically speaking, this would've been a complete loss for Buu if Gast decided to take action rather than yell "WAIT!!!" like a fool. He could've very easily used the technique that destroys Buu (that we know he can use) to eradicate the orb entirely, and then there's no more Zen Buu. Then he could've pointed out that pieces of Buu flew out from the audience before he was sent home, and that Buu was almost certainly plotting another takeover.
But instead he chose to do nothing and then died.
A personal choice that I would've done to make the scene work better and to make Gast less of a dum-dum would be for Gast to attempt to take action before Buu was unsealed, only for the spells Buu placed on him to automatically activate and kill him before giving him the chance.
Because otherwise it's a total loss for Buu that he only survived because Gast held the idiot ball.
Unless of course shooting the orb just sets him free early as his gas form that's much harder to destroy completely
And ignoring the fact that Gast follows the rules and wouldn't just say "I think he's scheming" and shoot Buu
And ignoring that Babidi doesn't want to risk cocooning his own Buu
This would require Assassinating Gast's character by turning him from a silent warrior who respects the will of the organizers into a bloodlusted vigilante who acts on a whim, retconning Babidi's statements, retconning the way the cocoon works, and having the organizers not send him back for attacking a fellow competitor
— Bloodlusted Vigilante
"Buu is god and Buu is manipulating everything, and also he's taken control of the only feasible way to send him home." - The organizer who has lost his mind
is justification enough for anybody to act. Especially against a potential threat to the entire multiverse. But DA RULEZ are weirdly omnipotent in this story when needed.
— Retconning Babidi's statements.
At the point in which he acquires Son Bra, Babidi should no longer care about Buu as much, he's got somebody MUCH more powerful and much more loyal to him and willing to protect him, and with the power of the Multiverse Travel Tech, he should easily be able to get as many Buus as he wants if he does win. Buu is so useless to him that he is literally tricked and used against him.
— Retconning the way the cocoon works
"Attack that can destroy Buu."
Also, Gohan attacked it in this very story in the Future Saga, and it literally KILLED Buu when it was opened prematurely, so wrong on both counts.
— send him back for attacking a fellow competitor
I feel like they might've made allowances considering the speech Fat Kai made.
— The organizer saying Buu is god is worrying, but that still doesn't explain why he'd suddenly turn on heel and blast the cocoon for no apparent reason completely unprompted, as he had no idea Buu could escape. For all he knows, it could've freed Buu
We won't know the specifics until we see the backstory, but we do know that Gast faced Buu before, and in turn probably also faced Dabura and Babidi, too. While we can't know for sure, he should have some degree of awareness as to Buu's cocoon and that the dial ticking up means that it's gaining energy. He should've at least been curious as to why the Varga said "Huh, what's this" as he should've been able to hear thanks to his hearing, though.
— I don't think anyone needs to justify why Babidi wouldn't want to give up Majin Buu, a combatant who is basically immortal against anyone who doesn't know the disintegration technique, just because Bra's pretty strong
I mean, Bra has an overwhelming amount of power, more than enough that she'd be able to release Majin Buu from the cocoon once again without even being that winded from the effort of doing so. The seal isn't a permanent thing. But this is more a problem of Babidi being a short-sided fool than anything else. Getting rid of the all-powerful variant of Buu that you have no hope of controlling should be worth the risk.
— Cool, Gast doesn't know that
As above, see below, we know that Gast has fought Buu in his past, but we don't know just how much information he has on stuff like the cocoon. It's pointless to really speculate there.
— Cool, Gast still wouldn't go bloodlusted vigilante on a cocoon for no reason whatsoever
I feel like everyone in the story is fundamentally downplaying the idea of "multiversal threat" for some reason. Not to say Gast would've done something like that, but that he probably should have, considering the stakes are literally infinite when it comes to people like Buu or XXI.
But hey, his refusal to act got him deleted by half a dozen spells, so L slugman, I guess.
I've said my piece anyway, and am happy to end it now. I tied it back into Gast refusing to do anything about XXI either, and the nonchalance characters have towards the end of the multiverse 2 Replie(s)
TheSloppaSituation
12 Mei
CompactCoven was saying:
This comment has gone through so many revisions, I'm just gonna cut it down to the bare essentials
Joey21 was saying: Aforementioned are not established characters. This is a spin off based on preexisting material, thus piggybacks off it’s said standard. Character debasement without structural arc is assassination. You are taking away everything that made them who they were in the source material. Next time I will be sure to preemptively explain my explanation based off the manga’s explanation preemptively.
I had clearly meant "established in this comic", they've existed for chapters upon chapters. And no, "Not appearing in prior canon works" doesn't mean it's Character Assassination for someone to lose to them. Again, losing is not Character Assassination.
I've already explained "losing" isn't character assassination, then you made me explain that "losing badly" isn't character assassination, and now you're making me explain "losing to someone not from canon" isn't character assassination. I don't want to have to say this anymore
The Big Gete Star was saying: I'd say that the character whose main characteristic was curiosity to such a level that he absorbed most of his universe just to build up a massive wealth of knowledge, skills, and powers, was in turn beaten by literally the exact same spell that stopped him the first time would constitute as some pretty flawed Doylist-motivated dismissive writing. It doesn't make much sense that "how to counterspell the spell that beats Buu" would be something he never figured out or looked into.
Which is why Buu did very clearly have a countermeasure that defeats the exact technique you're talking about, with which he escaped in just a few pages. It just doesn't work instantly because it wasn't designed to be used in a tournament where getting trapped for 30 seconds equals a loss. In any other situation, Buu would've escaped and defeated his opponent
At this point it's speculation, but since the dial has the same design as the one used to track how much energy is needed to resurrect Buu from the manga, he's probably just providing his own energy for the resurrection, which justifiably takes a minute to let that flow in. Again, it's a very effective countermeasure that would've worked in any other situation except for a tournament that has a strict time limit on when you have to escape
Joey21 was saying: Aforementioned are not established characters. This is a spin off based on preexisting material, thus piggybacks off it’s said standard. Character debasement without structural arc is assassination. You are taking away everything that made them who they were in the source material. Next time I will be sure to preemptively explain my explanation based off the manga’s explanation preemptively.
I had clearly meant "established in this comic", they've existed for chapters upon chapters. And no, "Not appearing in prior canon works" doesn't mean it's Character Assassination for someone to lose to them. Again, losing is not Character Assassination.
I've already explained "losing" isn't character assassination, then you made me explain that "losing badly" isn't character assassination, and now you're making me explain "losing to someone not from canon" isn't character assassination. I don't want to have to say this anymore
The Big Gete Star was saying: I'd say that the character whose main characteristic was curiosity to such a level that he absorbed most of his universe just to build up a massive wealth of knowledge, skills, and powers, was in turn beaten by literally the exact same spell that stopped him the first time would constitute as some pretty flawed Doylist-motivated dismissive writing. It doesn't make much sense that "how to counterspell the spell that beats Buu" would be something he never figured out or looked into.
Which is why Buu did very clearly have a countermeasure that defeats the exact technique you're talking about, with which he escaped in just a few pages. It just doesn't work instantly because it wasn't designed to be used in a tournament where getting trapped for 30 seconds equals a loss. In any other situation, Buu would've escaped and defeated his opponent
At this point it's speculation, but since the dial has the same design as the one used to track how much energy is needed to resurrect Buu from the manga, he's probably just providing his own energy for the resurrection, which justifiably takes a minute to let that flow in. Again, it's a very effective countermeasure that would've worked in any other situation except for a tournament that has a strict time limit on when you have to escape
— "Would've worked in any other situation"
Completely wrong. Because it leaves Buu completely vulnerable to destruction from attacks that can kill him. Had he played his cards correctly/been smarter, Babidi with Majin Bra could've actually spoken the incantation as a precaution against Zen Buu and had Bra destroy him like that.
Technically speaking, this would've been a complete loss for Buu if Gast decided to take action rather than yell "WAIT!!!" like a fool. He could've very easily used the technique that destroys Buu (that we know he can use) to eradicate the orb entirely, and then there's no more Zen Buu. Then he could've pointed out that pieces of Buu flew out from the audience before he was sent home, and that Buu was almost certainly plotting another takeover.
But instead he chose to do nothing and then died.
A personal choice that I would've done to make the scene work better and to make Gast less of a dum-dum would be for Gast to attempt to take action before Buu was unsealed, only for the spells Buu placed on him to automatically activate and kill him before giving him the chance.
Because otherwise it's a total loss for Buu that he only survived because Gast held the idiot ball. 1 Replie(s)
TheSloppaSituation
12 Mei
I just wanted to point out that the name faintly visible as the tournament winner in the Tournament Help section has changed from Mary Sue to "Mr. Satan" backwards.
Not sure if anybody else noticed.
Anyway, sure hope that this is an illusion like the current cope, otherwise that's some of the worst set-up being denied ever. 1 Replie(s)
DB Multiverse page 2490
Not sure if anybody else noticed.
Anyway, sure hope that this is an illusion like the current cope, otherwise that's some of the worst set-up being denied ever. 1 Replie(s)
TheSloppaSituation
11 Mei
Joey21 was saying:
Considering XXI has been watching the entire tourney, likely devoured all the characters, he knows what makes them tick. This is Buu escapades p.2. Which brings me to my next theory; Buu will likely come back and help since he’s been unreachable in his other Universe after banishment. Well likely see a magician battle simultaneously alongside Gogetto-gate.
Also, crazy Goku is refreshing. One of the most underrated characters. Legit never know what to expect.
Also, crazy Goku is refreshing. One of the most underrated characters. Legit never know what to expect.
Buu obviously isn't coming back to the story.
Ever. He's gone. A literal deus ex machina was expended to get rid of him after he was given near unlimited reality warping powers. (Yeah Mr. White! Yeah science!)
You'll get your magician battle when Uub returns to fight XXI with his new magical mastery at the eleventh hour. 1 Replie(s)
TheSloppaSituation
11 Mei
King Kindred was saying:
Is this actually true or is XXI just playing a vision? No way they'd kill Raditz just like that without us seeing what his Mystic Form is like.
I think that's exactly what just happened.
I think that the whole "what-if" chapter with the Kakaditz fusion was meant to pre-empt complaints by basically showing that at the end of the day, Ultimate Raditz would've been worthlessly weak, even fused with Kakarot he was inferior to Super Saiyan 3 Vegeta.
(Even though DBM Colored showed Gokhan not even needing to transform to instantly evaporate Buutenks, a character who logically would be at least twice as strong as SS3 Prince Vegeta)
I'd like to be wrong, and for this to simply be another illusion, but I feel like it's unlikely at this point.
TheSloppaSituation
11 Mei
TheSloppaSituation
11 Mei
CompactCoven was saying:
TheSloppaSituation was saying: The comparison between Vegetto suddenly doing something extremely stupid here and everything else is especially bad because the prior unseen "immunity to poison" is being used as justification for doing something extremely dumb that most people can see a mile away is going to somehow end up biting him in the ass. Especially when there are so many ways for Vegetto to get food. (Use the Dragon Balls to wish for the beans, ask the Varga to let him take a trip home to grab some beans, and the weirdness of Buu not bringing U16's Beans back for some reason still sticks out)
Rather than Vegetto doing a sensible thing and going "Oh, hey organizers, you know that time I saved you from Broly, and then attempted to save you from Buu, and then got shattered by some rando, could you maybe help me out, because that has all left me starving and in a good deal of pain."
The organizers should be more than willing to help him out there. But instead he's choosing to trust the multiverse consuming nightmare wizard doomcloud.
I mentioned earlier that this is not a smart decision, but it's perfectly in character for Vegito, a character who's been characterized as being arrogant* and who has spent years upon years as the strongest in the entire universe, to want to grasp at any chance to get his power back, even if it's coming from an untrustworthy source.
This is exactly the sort of thing Vegeta did with Babidi, only this time instead of being motivated by "Wanting to defeat Goku and return to his roots", it's "I've saved everyone in this arena multiple times, but now I've been cut in half, humiliated, and now I'm ACTIVELY getting left behind". I'm sure Vegito COULD ask the Vargas to bring him back to his timeline for a bit to grab some beans, but that ignores the fact that Vegito would never ASK for help, that's not how his character is written. On top of that, his ego probably wouldn't be able to stand letting other people know how weak he is right now. Elder Kai only figured it out because he connected with him
TLDR: There were definitely other things Vegito could have done, but it's not in character for this depiction of him to ask for help
* Regardless of how anyone feels about whether Vegito was actually arrogant in canon, he's been written like this in DBM for literal years, what matters is how he's characterized in this story
Rather than Vegetto doing a sensible thing and going "Oh, hey organizers, you know that time I saved you from Broly, and then attempted to save you from Buu, and then got shattered by some rando, could you maybe help me out, because that has all left me starving and in a good deal of pain."
The organizers should be more than willing to help him out there. But instead he's choosing to trust the multiverse consuming nightmare wizard doomcloud.
I mentioned earlier that this is not a smart decision, but it's perfectly in character for Vegito, a character who's been characterized as being arrogant* and who has spent years upon years as the strongest in the entire universe, to want to grasp at any chance to get his power back, even if it's coming from an untrustworthy source.
This is exactly the sort of thing Vegeta did with Babidi, only this time instead of being motivated by "Wanting to defeat Goku and return to his roots", it's "I've saved everyone in this arena multiple times, but now I've been cut in half, humiliated, and now I'm ACTIVELY getting left behind". I'm sure Vegito COULD ask the Vargas to bring him back to his timeline for a bit to grab some beans, but that ignores the fact that Vegito would never ASK for help, that's not how his character is written. On top of that, his ego probably wouldn't be able to stand letting other people know how weak he is right now. Elder Kai only figured it out because he connected with him
TLDR: There were definitely other things Vegito could have done, but it's not in character for this depiction of him to ask for help
* Regardless of how anyone feels about whether Vegito was actually arrogant in canon, he's been written like this in DBM for literal years, what matters is how he's characterized in this story
And thus the goalpost moves from "Vegetto was always arrogant and careless" to "Vegetto has been portrayed that way in DBM for ages!"
But that does sort of ignore the glacial pace that DBM moves at, or that he quite literally wasn't careless against Broly, where the most he did was actually fight him for a bit before getting serious and ending things then and there, even if he could have kept the fight going for his own amusement as the first time he's had to get serious ever. (Which isn't true because he fought that illusion Bra once)
Nor was he careless against XXI, the blindside of the time differential was something nobody could've expected, and he wanted to end the fight immediately to stop him from doing some wizardy stuff. Nor was he careless against Ginyu-Bra, acting exactly as neccessary to get his daughter back in her proper body.
He's been consistently shown as confident but shrewd, up until the start/end of the Majin Rebellion, where he went from the Vegetto who had faith in his daughter to "The Bad Fusionman". After that point, he was just fed endless Ls, be it from Goku and Vegeta new forms, Buu, IKL or Gast. 1 Replie(s)
TheSloppaSituation
11 Mei
iron leaf was saying:
What has unfortunately been completely lost in all the debate on today's page is XXI and how he can apparently teleport.
I wonder, is he able to teleport himself, or does he use a spell to do it? In his public appearances during the tournament, he has always used magic to get into the ring. For example, page 724, here it looks like he can teleport his (puppet-)body with his black smoke, which could be part of his natural ability. I understand why he didn't want to show this ability in the tournament. He never plays his own trump cards unless it's necessary. Still, I wonder if he's really capable of practically running away in any situation. That would be an important detail for the future when it comes to the final confrontation with XXI.
TheSloppaSituation was saying: There's so much I disagree with here that I'll take it a bit at a timeI did not claim that Goku being bulletproof would be a Deus Ex Machina. That was just my introductory part to the discussion. Of course, the meeting of Goku and Bulma is the main event and introduction of the two lead roles in the series in general. Everything here is establishing lore. What I meant was that it fits Toriyama style. Goku, despite the monkey tail, seems like a regular boy for the most part, to whom most of our laws of physics would apply. That he turns out to be bulletproof right when Bulma shoots at him fits with Toriyama's style, where stuff largely comes out of nowhere. That misunderstanding is on me.
As for the other points. I have to disagree with you entirely. It's as if we have completely different understandings of Dragonball. But I don't want to take the discussion any further off-topic.
Kururun was saying: You would never see a character dumping the Powers And Abilities section of his Wikia pageYou are correct, unless a character is dumping the Backstory And Origin section of his Wikia page. (towards his actual enemy, whom he should distrust at this moment.) xD
I wonder, is he able to teleport himself, or does he use a spell to do it? In his public appearances during the tournament, he has always used magic to get into the ring. For example, page 724, here it looks like he can teleport his (puppet-)body with his black smoke, which could be part of his natural ability. I understand why he didn't want to show this ability in the tournament. He never plays his own trump cards unless it's necessary. Still, I wonder if he's really capable of practically running away in any situation. That would be an important detail for the future when it comes to the final confrontation with XXI.
TheSloppaSituation was saying: There's so much I disagree with here that I'll take it a bit at a timeI did not claim that Goku being bulletproof would be a Deus Ex Machina. That was just my introductory part to the discussion. Of course, the meeting of Goku and Bulma is the main event and introduction of the two lead roles in the series in general. Everything here is establishing lore. What I meant was that it fits Toriyama style. Goku, despite the monkey tail, seems like a regular boy for the most part, to whom most of our laws of physics would apply. That he turns out to be bulletproof right when Bulma shoots at him fits with Toriyama's style, where stuff largely comes out of nowhere. That misunderstanding is on me.
As for the other points. I have to disagree with you entirely. It's as if we have completely different understandings of Dragonball. But I don't want to take the discussion any further off-topic.
Kururun was saying: You would never see a character dumping the Powers And Abilities section of his Wikia pageYou are correct, unless a character is dumping the Backstory And Origin section of his Wikia page. (towards his actual enemy, whom he should distrust at this moment.) xD
Whenever I've glanced at the comments sections of these pages before, any debate between users and sometimes moderators even always ends up as some sort of "ah-ha! Gotcha!" exchanges, rather than actual sincere discussions of ideas. Neither party seems willing to budge on their take of the setting, as once again you're seemingly willfully misunderstanding the set-up.
It's also a very well known fact that the story of the cell arc was a very messy one thanks to editor interference (which Salagir doesn't have, though god knows it might improve this story) and the story had to keep changing, which led to the main villain needing to rather clunkily introduce his motive.
This is STILL set-up by the fact that we've seen Cell's time machine and the absorption of people by this point.
If this were comparable to this scene, then Cell would simply appear out of nowhere with no prior hints and go "I too travelled from the future like Trunks, and I absorb people to gain strength, especially 17 and 18!"
Your take on Goku is also still wrong, because Goku very clearly isn't anything like a normal boy, even disregarding his monkey tail. In quite literally the very first page of Dragonball ever, we see Goku tossing a Tree Stump four times his size high into the air before kicking it to pieces, then he kills a fish 4 times his size with one kick and easily drags it around.
And then he lifts up a car, and THEN Bulma is shot at him.
If you want to talk about clunky establishing lore, you picked the literal worst possible example.
The comparison between Vegetto suddenly doing something extremely stupid here and everything else is especially bad because the prior unseen "immunity to poison" is being used as justification for doing something extremely dumb that most people can see a mile away is going to somehow end up biting him in the ass. Especially when there are so many ways for Vegetto to get food. (Use the Dragon Balls to wish for the beans, ask the Varga to let him take a trip home to grab some beans, and the weirdness of Buu not bringing U16's Beans back for some reason still sticks out)
Rather than Vegetto doing a sensible thing and going "Oh, hey organizers, you know that time I saved you from Broly, and then attempted to save you from Buu, and then got shattered by some rando, could you maybe help me out, because that has all left me starving and in a good deal of pain."
The organizers should be more than willing to help him out there. But instead he's choosing to trust the multiverse consuming nightmare wizard doomcloud. 2 Replie(s)
TheSloppaSituation
11 Mei
iron leaf was saying:
@Joey21_&_CompactCoven
Please refrain from leaving double posts. Rule #9: You can edit your comments. Leaving an extra comment for every quote from another user within minutes is considered spam here. Please refrain from doing so in the future.
Kururun was saying: Toriyama would NEVER have written "I have poison immunity" like it's a tabletop game or something. Either he'd keep Goku and friends somewhat like regular people because making them relatable on a surface level is important for storytelling and comedy... Or he'd make a joke where Goku unknowingly drinks poison.
Actually, we've seen how Tori handles this, and it's very elegant and seamless: read the Fat Buu eating Satan's chocolate scene.Are you sure? It's the same guy who introduced Goku as bulletproof by having Bulma shoot at him.
It's kind of Toriyama's trademark. Introducing a sort of Deus Ex Machina, just to steer the plot in the exact direction he wants at the moment. Something that doesn't necessarily contradict previous lore and can be easily explained, but isn't introduced properly, instead popping in out of nowhere.
Goku can read Krillin's mind right after arriving on Namek. Wow. What a coincidence that this very ability is introduced when you want Goku to be up to date with the latest events on Namek within a page.
Dende can suddenly heal other people. Wow. What a coincidence that it's introduced exactly when you want the Z-Fighters to keep fighting Freeza without a long interruption.
Ah, there are so many examples. I don't want to drift off topic though. Vegetto suddenly having an immunity to poison out of nowhere would be well within the realm of possibility, in Dragonball writing style that is. It's being introduced right now because it's (possibly) part of the plot right now.
If it's just the semantics that bother you, that the exact words, immune and poison, bother you, then I'm afraid I can't reassure you. That's DBM and after 2500 pages it's not really going to change.
Mr Popo the third was saying: it is so damn depressing how stupid characters are whenever the plot demands itI advise you not to re-watch the Cell saga. You'll facepalm yourself to death. xD
Philsdesign was saying: That whole fight was him faking arrogance and trying to get Buu desperate and attempt an absorption so he could free everyoneJust a small question of understanding.
How did Vegetto know that his plan would be successful? What event in the Buu Arc convinced him to perform a risky maneuver where he allows himself to be absorbed, with a shield of course, in the hope that he can navigate in the body of Buu himself and also find and rescue the other absorbed people?
What about his plan was not reckless?
Please refrain from leaving double posts. Rule #9: You can edit your comments. Leaving an extra comment for every quote from another user within minutes is considered spam here. Please refrain from doing so in the future.
Kururun was saying: Toriyama would NEVER have written "I have poison immunity" like it's a tabletop game or something. Either he'd keep Goku and friends somewhat like regular people because making them relatable on a surface level is important for storytelling and comedy... Or he'd make a joke where Goku unknowingly drinks poison.
Actually, we've seen how Tori handles this, and it's very elegant and seamless: read the Fat Buu eating Satan's chocolate scene.Are you sure? It's the same guy who introduced Goku as bulletproof by having Bulma shoot at him.
It's kind of Toriyama's trademark. Introducing a sort of Deus Ex Machina, just to steer the plot in the exact direction he wants at the moment. Something that doesn't necessarily contradict previous lore and can be easily explained, but isn't introduced properly, instead popping in out of nowhere.
Goku can read Krillin's mind right after arriving on Namek. Wow. What a coincidence that this very ability is introduced when you want Goku to be up to date with the latest events on Namek within a page.
Dende can suddenly heal other people. Wow. What a coincidence that it's introduced exactly when you want the Z-Fighters to keep fighting Freeza without a long interruption.
Ah, there are so many examples. I don't want to drift off topic though. Vegetto suddenly having an immunity to poison out of nowhere would be well within the realm of possibility, in Dragonball writing style that is. It's being introduced right now because it's (possibly) part of the plot right now.
If it's just the semantics that bother you, that the exact words, immune and poison, bother you, then I'm afraid I can't reassure you. That's DBM and after 2500 pages it's not really going to change.
Mr Popo the third was saying: it is so damn depressing how stupid characters are whenever the plot demands itI advise you not to re-watch the Cell saga. You'll facepalm yourself to death. xD
Philsdesign was saying: That whole fight was him faking arrogance and trying to get Buu desperate and attempt an absorption so he could free everyoneJust a small question of understanding.
How did Vegetto know that his plan would be successful? What event in the Buu Arc convinced him to perform a risky maneuver where he allows himself to be absorbed, with a shield of course, in the hope that he can navigate in the body of Buu himself and also find and rescue the other absorbed people?
What about his plan was not reckless?
There's so much I disagree with here that I'll take it a bit at a time
— It's the same guy who introduced Goku as bulletproof by having Bulma shoot at him.
Are we seriously saying that the literal very first chapter of Dragon Ball, and the introduction to Goku as a character being stronger than a normal person is a deus ex machina at all? Nevermind one on the level of a character justifying something extremely stupid with a "I'm immune to poison, btw"? Is that the level we're on now? No, that example is not a "Deus Ex Machina"
— Goku can read Krillin's mind
Yeah? And? Roshi did this with Nam all the way back in the first Budokai. Goku at that point in the story was a certified martial arts master, so again, it's not something without justification.
— Dende can suddenly heal other people
The closest you've gotten to something akin to this, but it's not "suddenly" at all, it was once again built up to with Dende having his potential unlocked by the Elder Namek.
Meanwhile, the closest Dragonball itself ever got to characters being poison immune is Buu (Because of course) and Goku with the Ultra Divine Water, which still put him in unbearable agony that he was only able to pull through thanks to main character plot armor. Nothing Toriyama ever wrote will ever be as silly as some of the bizarre choices this story has made. Such as being able to timestop allowing you to kill literally everyone (Why didn't Guldo do this to Gohan and Krillin?), Babidi's Majinization rewarding you with perfect control over an uncontrollable form, or now, Vegetto going "I am immune to poison so I shall eat this pitch black bean given to me by a magician who literally disappeared in a surge of black flames without any hesitation"
And at the same time, in this very story, we've seen characters being clearly affected by toxins, as seen on the planet with the toxic fumes Babidi sent everyone to, where we see Goku, Vegeta, Trunks and Pan able to talk (indicating an atmosphere) but struggling to breath until Gast blew the toxic fumes away. This would've been a good opportunity to show Vegetto's poison immunity, had he not been shown struggling like the other characters had been, but that opportunity was wasted on a single page cliffhanger about the possibility Babidi would've controlled him.
— How did Vegetto know that his plan would be successful?
I don't know, he just did. He's the ultimate fighter who knew that his plan would work, and his plan worked. Akira Toriyama was never the sort of writer to give long sprawling reasons behind why certain strategies were used. Maybe he was just able to figure out it would work on account of being the ultimate fighter. Maybe his ability to sense energy is so great he could literally pinpoint the locations of his friends and family? There's plenty of reasons other than "VEGETTO DUMB!" or whatever. 1 Replie(s)
TheSloppaSituation
11 Mei
CompactCoven was saying:
happywarrior99 was saying: Keywords: DBZ showing.
DBZ showing are not canon on DBM.
Except for the notable exceptions of DBZ movies villains and one DBZ video game villain, DBZ continuity stuff is not a part of DBM according to what Salagir said about DBM being a fan made continuity of the original DB manga continuity, which is not DBZ continuity.
Vegetto being a careless idiot during his fight against Super Buu is DBZ anime filler continuity that does not happen on the original DB manga continuity. On the original DB manga continuity Vegetto was not so careless during his fight against Super Buu.
Haven't heard of this before, is there a source for this statement?
DBZ showing are not canon on DBM.
Except for the notable exceptions of DBZ movies villains and one DBZ video game villain, DBZ continuity stuff is not a part of DBM according to what Salagir said about DBM being a fan made continuity of the original DB manga continuity, which is not DBZ continuity.
Vegetto being a careless idiot during his fight against Super Buu is DBZ anime filler continuity that does not happen on the original DB manga continuity. On the original DB manga continuity Vegetto was not so careless during his fight against Super Buu.
Haven't heard of this before, is there a source for this statement?
It's literally the very first entry in the Site FAQ page.
What is "canon"?
We define canon as anything that happened in the original manga. Non-canon is any addition from the animation or other stories. It concerns scenes, but also characters or techniques.
Examples :
Gokû destroyed the top of Cell with a Kamehameha. This happened in the animation and the manga, so it's canon.
Gokû participated in a tournament in Otherworld. This only happenned in the animation, so it's not canon.
Piccolo is a canon character.
Pai Kuyan isn't a canon character.
Tarble, Vegeta's brother, isn't canon.
Tenshinhan's technique of separating into multiple bodies is canon.
Piccolo uses this techniques in the animation, but not in the manga. Piccolo being able to separate isn't canon.
etc. 1 Replie(s)
TheSloppaSituation
11 Mei
Damian Qualshy was saying:
Sodapopinski was saying: The peeps from last page and inevitably this one complaining about Vegetto "character assassination" def got a different take on his DBZ showing than I did.
He was always this arrogant, and this careless. I don't think a coupla losses would change that... The Vegeta side of him never handled those well.
Basically all fusions were arrogant assholes, with this one prob topping the list.
No they weren't? Vegetto against Buu did enough to stir him up and get "absorbed" because that was his plan. Gogeta got straight to the point against Janemba and destroyed him immediately.
He was always this arrogant, and this careless. I don't think a coupla losses would change that... The Vegeta side of him never handled those well.
Basically all fusions were arrogant assholes, with this one prob topping the list.
No they weren't? Vegetto against Buu did enough to stir him up and get "absorbed" because that was his plan. Gogeta got straight to the point against Janemba and destroyed him immediately.
Apparently, we gotta base our opinions on fusions on Gotenks now because Vegetto did nothing but play Buu into falling for his trap. This is of course in spite the fact that Gotenks was the combination of two eight year old children. Then again, in this story, when he last showed up, even Gotenks got more respect than Vegerot and basically scolded the guy.
The problem here is that in the original story, Vegetto was confident in his strength and this was proven to be fine as even when he did get struck by the Candy Beam, his power was so great that he was simply able to ignore the intended effects.
But it's different here. In Salagir's world, Magic is supreme, and Vegetto is a loser for thinking otherwise.
DBM turns this justified confidence into arrogance by making it so every Tom, Dumbledore and Harry's magic can basically unmake him with ease. Whether that be teleporting him (something that wish-granting dragons like Porunga can't do if somebody is stronger than him and doesn't wish to be teleported, in case you forgot), shattering him, draining him of all of his power instantly, or sending him to another dimension. Magic is clearly the dominant force. Just behind tech nonsense like the Carbonite, the Heliotes shields, and the funny cut anything sword.
I can't stress enough how ridiculous it is that he technically lost to Babidi of all people. Had one existed in Universe 0, or if he'd had the bright idea to do so, Babidi could've teleported the entire cast that he didn't mind control directly into the gravitational well of a Super Massive Black Hole, killing them all instantly, (including Gast! And *Buu!* (Some of him anyway)).
Magic and "Hax" abilities in DBM are ridiculously overpowered to the point where it's cartoonish. 1 Replie(s)
TheSloppaSituation
10 Mei
Justanotherturtle was saying:
Sigh.
Toriyama showed Goku's combat genius by having him decide to control his energy and access it quickly by making Super Saiyan his base form, also retaining his speed.
Salagir showed Goku's intelligence by having him wait until he touches the arena before closing his eyes and standing still for ten seconds to transform into a form we are told is energy efficient.
Toriyama showed Vegetto's intelligence by having him quickly come up with and enact a plan to trick Buu into thinking he's an arrogant moron to get absorbed, a plan which worked so well that even many of the readers still think he's arrogant and stupid.
Salagir showed Vegetto's intelligence by having him take candy from strangers.
Even if it turns out that this bean is harmless, Vegetto is still the biggest moron in the universe.
Toriyama showed Goku's combat genius by having him decide to control his energy and access it quickly by making Super Saiyan his base form, also retaining his speed.
Salagir showed Goku's intelligence by having him wait until he touches the arena before closing his eyes and standing still for ten seconds to transform into a form we are told is energy efficient.
Toriyama showed Vegetto's intelligence by having him quickly come up with and enact a plan to trick Buu into thinking he's an arrogant moron to get absorbed, a plan which worked so well that even many of the readers still think he's arrogant and stupid.
Salagir showed Vegetto's intelligence by having him take candy from strangers.
Even if it turns out that this bean is harmless, Vegetto is still the biggest moron in the universe.
Don't forget that Goku and Vegeta's brand new forms are so energy efficient that both of them were totally gassed within seconds of fighting and it turned into a fairly basic slugfest.
Personally if I were to show how energy efficient a form was, I wouldn't show the users becoming tired within the time it takes for a water droplet to fall. Goku mastered the Super Saiyan state a long time ago.
It's hilarious that people think that Vegetto would be at all like this. Like he's some sort of arrogant moron just because he made up a plan that worked perfectly against Buu and saved all of his loved ones. It's super funny that Salagir's version of Gokhan from the first pages of DBM Colored instead chose to instantly murder Buu and everyone inside of Buu rather than risk trying to actually save them, and that this sheer sociopathy makes him a good guy unlike Vegito who was an arrogant meanie, or something because Vegeta was about 45 minutes away from letting go of his rivalry with Goku. Nevermind that it's a complete unknown whether the dragonballs would even be able to bring somebody back if they were inside Buu when Buu was killed, but whatever, at least the Gohan in that fusion didn't have the bright idea to commit attempted murdersuicide like some Gohans might. Then again, from Son Bra, maybe murdering your friends and family members is just treated as a good thing in this setting?
Either way, treating character development like it's some computer checksum is ridiculous. Vegeta accepting Goku was stronger than him is just that.
It's not a binary thing, you can't be 99% of the way to a character development and then reset to 0. 2 Replie(s)
TheSloppaSituation
10 Mei
Sodapopinski was saying:
Vegetto has also been darkening on his own throughout this tournament... Setting aside whether he could just be "hangry," if he thinks the tournament is stupid and would rather fight everyone there openly than participate in what he thinks is a farce, he doesn't have ethical reasons for "doing the right thing" and refusing XXI.
He might also have more respect for a being he recognizes as a fellow omnipotent, than he does for the "lesser" beings in the tournament.
He might also have more respect for a being he recognizes as a fellow omnipotent, than he does for the "lesser" beings in the tournament.
What the hell are you talking about, dawg? Honestly, this whole "Vegito has been looking for a decent fight forever!" thing is just far too silly a explanation for this absolutely unhinged crashout. If he wanted that, then just have Old Kai unleash the potential of the Goten and Trunks of his universe and then have fun fighting against Ultimate Gotenks. Trying to portray him as some unhinged blood knight who thinks everyone around him is just a take that I cannot fathom somebody having. If that were the case, then he'd not give a shit about Bra being uncontrollable, and he'd have congratulated her when she first achieved Super Saiyan 2.
The idea that he'd be willing to endanger the entire multiverse just so he could fight against... checks notes ah yes, absolutely nobody left in the tournament on his level of strength at his peak that he couldn't instantly vaporize if he wasn't caught off guard is utterly bewildering. There isn't a single person left in this tournament who he should really want to fight that badly.
Also, not even close to what "omnipotent" means.
Omnipotent beings don't get shattered like sugarglass by aliens that are logically weaker than Perfect Cell.
TheSloppaSituation
9 Mei
Your nickel was saying:
iron leaf was saying: I thought I was very clear earlier. Follow the rules, or we'll skip warnings right now and go over to banning!
This also applies to rule #18.
I'm surprised why 'poison immunity' is causing such a fuss. I think that's exactly something Toryiama would have introduced.
And to me, Vegetto exemplifies supreme arrogance. Even if XXI had literally told him to his face that it was poison, Vegetto would still eat it, just to show off that he can take anything.
XXI: “This is poison.”
Vegetto: “I'm immune to it.”
XXI: “I can control your mind with it.”
Vegetto: “Babidi said the same thing.”
XXI: “You'll fight with everyone if you eat this.”
Vegetto: “Don't threaten me with a good time.”
I think King Kindred put it well, there's a difference between arrogance and sheer stupidity. Vegito already knows to be very cautious against XXI. Even back on page 724, he planned to finish XXI quickly since he didn't want to take chances against a magician doing something weird. If he were as arrogant as you claim, he would've let XXI try anything he wanted.
This also applies to rule #18.
I'm surprised why 'poison immunity' is causing such a fuss. I think that's exactly something Toryiama would have introduced.
And to me, Vegetto exemplifies supreme arrogance. Even if XXI had literally told him to his face that it was poison, Vegetto would still eat it, just to show off that he can take anything.
XXI: “This is poison.”
Vegetto: “I'm immune to it.”
XXI: “I can control your mind with it.”
Vegetto: “Babidi said the same thing.”
XXI: “You'll fight with everyone if you eat this.”
Vegetto: “Don't threaten me with a good time.”
I think King Kindred put it well, there's a difference between arrogance and sheer stupidity. Vegito already knows to be very cautious against XXI. Even back on page 724, he planned to finish XXI quickly since he didn't want to take chances against a magician doing something weird. If he were as arrogant as you claim, he would've let XXI try anything he wanted.
Even Zen Buu, the absolute pinnacle of arrogance to the point of claiming omnipotence, when facing XXI tried to end things immediately, showing an extreme level of caution. For Vegito to actually trust XXI after all that has happened here is just some of the worst character developments I've ever seen.
It feels like the man that faced XXI in the ring all those years ago has over the course of less than a weak in story devolved from Vegito, the ultimate fused fighter and combination of Goku and Vegeta to a Generic Power Obsessed Angry Shonen Bad Dad Man.
TheSloppaSituation
9 Mei
iron leaf was saying:
I thought I was very clear earlier. Follow the rules, or we'll skip warnings right now and go over to banning!
This also applies to rule #18.
I'm surprised why 'poison immunity' is causing such a fuss. I think that's exactly something Toryiama would have introduced.
And to me, Vegetto exemplifies supreme arrogance. Even if XXI had literally told him to his face that it was poison, Vegetto would still take it, just to show off that he can take anything.
XXI: “This is poison.”
Vegetto: “I'm immune to it.”
XXI: “I can control your mind with it.”
Vegetto: “Babidi said the same thing.”
XXI: “You'll fight with everyone if you eat this.”
Vegetto: “Don't threaten me with a good time.”
This also applies to rule #18.
I'm surprised why 'poison immunity' is causing such a fuss. I think that's exactly something Toryiama would have introduced.
And to me, Vegetto exemplifies supreme arrogance. Even if XXI had literally told him to his face that it was poison, Vegetto would still take it, just to show off that he can take anything.
XXI: “This is poison.”
Vegetto: “I'm immune to it.”
XXI: “I can control your mind with it.”
Vegetto: “Babidi said the same thing.”
XXI: “You'll fight with everyone if you eat this.”
Vegetto: “Don't threaten me with a good time.”
I feel like this is a poor argument given everything else that has happened. Vegito has been utterly humiliated and emasculated throughout this tournament. My man has practically only just been put back together after he got humpty dumptied by somebody Yamcha killed. He got utterly bullied and humiliated by Buu proving that there's really nothing that he can do against him. He got his powers at his peak switched off by Gast with utterly no difficulty, and then Gast also ended up being the one restoring him from his humpty dumptying. Finally, there's XXI who just sent Vegito away.
Hell, you could argue that he lost to Babidi, too! He was powerless to stop Babidi from teleporting him billions of light years away! (So much for you just have to be a thousand times stronger than the one casting the magic, unless Babidi has been working out, lol)
Vegito has been fed L after L in this tournament, so him not being at all wary of this extremely evil looking bean from a magician he hates and distrusts is so god damn funny.
TheSloppaSituation
9 Mei
JetMalakai was saying:
Friendly reminder that if XXI ends up controlling or otherwise influencing Vegetto because dude was hangry...its Bra's fault. She's the one who destroyed the Senzu stash.
So yeah, everyone complaining that her cosmic temper tantrum was erased by Buu snapping his fingers, you might be about to get what you wanted.
So yeah, everyone complaining that her cosmic temper tantrum was erased by Buu snapping his fingers, you might be about to get what you wanted.
You raise a good point! Why exactly was everything that was destroyed in the rebellion brought back as if it hadn't been damaged in the first place by Buu's magic except the Senzu Beans?
Kind of contrived, ngl.
I don't see why Buu wouldn't bother bringing the beans back.
He made it abundantly obvious he wasn't scared of Vegito at all, full power or not. 2 Replie(s)
TheSloppaSituation
9 Mei
![[img]](https://i.ibb.co/7tvwtK6J/yummers.png)
TheSloppaSituation
9 Mei
jonathan_vik was saying:
I have to wonder how the multipliers work when it comes to Potara fusion. Is it (Goku's common sense+Vegeta's common sense)/1000? The math seems odd here.
No no, that's the formula for Gogeta.
For Vegito it's simply (Goku's common sense/Vegeta's common sense)
This is why Gogeta can win fights and Vegito is a hopeless jobber.
TheSloppaSituation
9 Mei
Hahahahaha!
He actually ate it! He really did it!
Dumbgetto is undeniable now!
His character has been slaughtered!
DB Multiverse page 2489
He actually ate it! He really did it!
Dumbgetto is undeniable now!
His character has been slaughtered!
TheSloppaSituation
8 Mei
Darklordcomp was saying:
It's wild to me that people in here are like "Well he's as stupid as Goku" when Goku was never truly stupid. He wasn't book smart but he was intelligent in his own way that shined multiple times through Dragon Ball and especially in Z
Look, Dragon Ball fans flanderizing Goku because they watched Dragon Ball Z Abridged is just something you're going to have to get used to as a fan.
It sucks, but that's just how things seem to work, especially thanks to the newer anime series which also sorta flanderize Goku.
TheSloppaSituation
7 Mei
jonathan_vik was saying:
Immune to poison? Why would that ever be a thing? Because he has a double immune system? That doesn't make any sense.
Just don't bother questioning nonsense like this. It won't have any good answer, just like why Broly is invulnerable to energy thanks to his weird "invulnerability" but gets instantly and immediately deleted by Carbongonite.
You'd think that molecular sized nanomachines wouldn't be able to bypass something that can block interactions on the sub-atomic level like energy.
But heckin science is only used when it needs to defend poor writing.
I read somewhere that Salagir once wrote that the gravity of the sun would be 333,000 times that of Earth because the mass of the sun is 333,000 times that of Earth.
As opposed to the 28 times gravity of Earth it actually is.
TheSloppaSituation
7 Mei
Justanotherturtle was saying:
Not even abridged Goku would be dumb enough to eat that. I know that Salagir has made most of the characters dumber (sometimes while trying to showcase their genius no less) and has already warped Vegetto, but there is no way that he's going to make Vegetto eat it right?
... Right?
... Right?
If you're about to join the "Why is Vegito getting character assassinated so horrifically" club, then I'm afaid there's a queue.
TheSloppaSituation
7 Mei
Anyway, it's almost painfully obvious that the bean is literally just a part of XXIs body.
If Vegito actually falls for this it's going to be so stupid.
I refuse to believe the story could do something so dumb.
DB Multiverse page 2488
If Vegito actually falls for this it's going to be so stupid.
I refuse to believe the story could do something so dumb.
TheSloppaSituation
7 Mei
We could be about to see this comic top the Son Bra arc for "worst written character moment"!
Either this works, and Vegito is extremely stupid, or he tells XXI to piss off, and shows that XXI is extremely stupid with a plan like this.
I'm erring towards Vegito being the stupid one, because this fancomic can't portray him as anything but.
DB Multiverse page 2488
Either this works, and Vegito is extremely stupid, or he tells XXI to piss off, and shows that XXI is extremely stupid with a plan like this.
I'm erring towards Vegito being the stupid one, because this fancomic can't portray him as anything but.
Language
I also have to raise a question, how often do we actually see Kaioshin's mind reading in DBZ? Serious question, because I'm not sure about this at all.
CompactCoven was saying: Raditz using his diplomatic skills well to remain in this universe! Gotta love how that comes back here, looks like Team Anti-XXI still has one of their most powerful members on deck!
Love that this comes back from page 1103, he really does have good negotiation skills. Even Elder Kai wasn't able to get South to listenI really like how Raditz's diplomatic skills are brought out again.
SoyBear was saying: Nah they've shown that this kaioshin is able to read minds; he did it to some of Freeza's soldiers the first night of the tourney.
He seems dumb enough to forget to use his powers though, or maybe it has flaws I in it like you said. No, that's wrong. South did not read the soldier's thoughts on page 524. It was obvious that someone sneaking around wanted to find the dragonballs.
瘦布欧 was saying: outh couldn't tell Raditz was lying. Either he was stupid for not using his mind-reading ability, or he simply didn't possess this ability, like East Kai.Raditz does not lie. He is firmly convinced that he has lost more than he has gained in this situation.
Females was saying: If Raditz has his full potential unlocked and no longer requires transformation, does that mean he can no longer transform into an ape from moon waves?To be honest, that's an interesting question. While DBS regards Mystic as a transformation, DBM does not. It's a state in your base form, so to speak. Gohan never activated the SSJ again in DBZ, after the ritual. This suggests that Gohan literally can't do it anymore or is fully aware that it's unnecessary and a waste of energy because he's already stronger than SSJ1 in Mystic, which is his new base form.
This would also apply to Raditz. The Oozaru form would no longer give him an advantage because he has already reached his full potential in Mystic. The transformation would add nothing.
I feel like it's unrealistic to say that South Kai, in his many millions of years of lifespan, would not have bothered to learn how to read minds when it is shown as an ability of many other characters, including Kaioshin. It's a fairly important tool to maintaining universal balance, as well.
But no, I guess the extremely wise being that has lived for tens of thousands of times longer than humanity have even had a civilization would never have bothered to learn a skill that was demonstrated by Master Roshi, and Goku (who DBM loves to portray as being just outright stupid).