DB Multiverse
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JJHinge
21 Februari 2021
Gotta call bull on Goku ITing to Kame House instead of to Dende or even to Otherworld, on top of no one sensing Broly's approach.
DB Multiverse page 1849
JJHinge
26 December 2020
Angry Old Namekian was saying:
Xizor was saying: Kaioken Videl defeated a Majin Cell Jr., who was said to be stronger (without the Majin seal) than DBZ Perfect Cell.
He has two Cell Juniors, and one of them was weaker than DBZ Perfect Cell (and probably at the same level as the original Cell Juniors from the Cell Games saga). So the question is whether Kaioken Videl is FPSSJ tier, or whether she just used techniques correctly to overcome someone far above her in power.
Videl killing Cell jr. is the most inconsistent part of this series, not counting specials. Videl can't even keep up with 3rd form Cold who is weaker than androids and not fighting seriously (page 410). She instantly forfeited when he transformed and was stated to be "#17 or #18, maybe even #16" level. She is probably around as strong as Freeza.
And they could have resolved that fight in many different ways, Earthlings have a lot of cool techniques to deal with much stronger opponents.
I remember them saying as much when the page first came out, the humans without the saiyans had to become masterful teambased fighters with none of the 1 at a time bullshit. Videl shoved her kaioken so high for that one smack on cell that she basically burnt herself out completely in one swing, which meant they likely had only one shot, and never gave that cell Jr. the chance to get out of his HEHE LETS TOY WITH THE WEAk- OW! Hey what the F-Squished head.
He has two Cell Juniors, and one of them was weaker than DBZ Perfect Cell (and probably at the same level as the original Cell Juniors from the Cell Games saga). So the question is whether Kaioken Videl is FPSSJ tier, or whether she just used techniques correctly to overcome someone far above her in power.
Videl killing Cell jr. is the most inconsistent part of this series, not counting specials. Videl can't even keep up with 3rd form Cold who is weaker than androids and not fighting seriously (page 410). She instantly forfeited when he transformed and was stated to be "#17 or #18, maybe even #16" level. She is probably around as strong as Freeza.
And they could have resolved that fight in many different ways, Earthlings have a lot of cool techniques to deal with much stronger opponents.
I remember them saying as much when the page first came out, the humans without the saiyans had to become masterful teambased fighters with none of the 1 at a time bullshit. Videl shoved her kaioken so high for that one smack on cell that she basically burnt herself out completely in one swing, which meant they likely had only one shot, and never gave that cell Jr. the chance to get out of his HEHE LETS TOY WITH THE WEAk- OW! Hey what the F-Squished head.
This is what I figured from the Cell Jr. fight. In this manga, you need hacks to get anywhere beyond Namek Saga levels of strength. Even the Saiyans can't get close to Freeza's level without transformations: it's not far-fetched that with some absurd level of Kaioken way beyond the x100 from the Lord Slug movie, Videl, Tien, or Krillin could hit or surpass DBZ Cell's level for a few moments. Besides that, instant-kill attacks like Kienzan and Kikoho shouldn't have been enough for U9 to kill every enemy, because in Dragon Ball, you get blitzed if an enemy is way above you. It's clear that Videl was trying to use just enough Kaioken to keep up with Cold and chop him up with the Z Sword. This is the same universe where Tien forfeited to Buu without even trying Kaioken, which I am pretty sure Salagir confirmed he can use. The humans probably don't care that much about pushing themselves to the limit and risking bodily harm in the process unless the situation is serious.
JJHinge
20 December 2020
Did this really require a whole page? The art is fabulous as always, but we're in the same place as two days ago and haven't even seen any other characters' reactions. I pray that this fight isn't dragged out. Bra has had enough screentime and this can only end in so many ways.
DB Multiverse page 1823
JJHinge
20 December 2020
shimipan was saying:
JJHinge was saying: Not much to say; this is basically the page I was expecting. Could be interesting if Vegeta is the first to defend her, since Vegetto just attacked a mirror image of his baby girl. I can't wait to see the embarrassing lengths some people will go to argue that Vegetto did nothing wrong here.
Since there's not much else to discuss with this page, I am working on rebuilding the power pyramid that got deleted from DBM Wiki years ago. Here's the prototype:
“Mastered” SSJ1 Tier: Majin Freeza, Majin Coola, First Cell Jr., Piccolo, Dabra, Super Bojack, Perfect Cell (DBZ), SSJ Kakarotto
SSJ2 Tier: Mastered Super Trunks, Base Son Bra, Cold, Revived Cell (DBZ), Second Cell Jr., SSJ2 Emperor Vegeta, SSJ Ozaru Kakarotto, SSJ2 Majin Kakarotto
SSJ3 Tier: SSJ3 Emperor Vegeta, Fat Buu, Southern Kaioshin, Uub Max Kaioken, SSJ3 Goku (DBZ), Kid Buu, Hildegan, SSJ3 Young Gotenks, Base Super Buu
In-Between Tier: Majin Cell, Mystic Gohan, SSJ3 Adult Gotenks, Base Vegetto, SSJ Son Bra
SSJ4 Tier: Buu-Gotenks, Buu-Gohan
SSJ5 Tier: SSJ3 Mastered Adult Gotenks, SSJ2 Son Bra, SSJ Vegetto
SSJ6 Tier: SSJ2 Vegetto, Broly U20 at the end
SSJ7 Tier: SSJ3 Vegetto
Too vague: Broly U3, Hatchiyack, Majin C-17, Majin Cold
Yet to be seen: Goku, Vegeta, Gast, Zen Buu
Most of this is self-explanatory. Left to right is weakest to strongest within tiers, but some are basically interchangeable and their order doesn't matter, like Bojack and Dabra or DBZ Cell and SSJ Kakarotto. I have yet to read all of the novel or pore over Salagir's statements for more information, but based on the manga alone, I think all of this is correct.
I agree with quite a bit of this other than these few things, you shouldn’t really grade them by SSJ, rather than Tiers (SS, S, A, B, etc) as there are no known multipliers for anything above SSJ4, and also you scaling for SSJ Oozaru Kakarotto makes no sense if you believe him to be relative to Prince Vegeta’s MSSJ, as the Oozaru form with super Saiyan would be a x500 multiplier while SSJ2 is only a x100 times multiplier.
Since there's not much else to discuss with this page, I am working on rebuilding the power pyramid that got deleted from DBM Wiki years ago. Here's the prototype:
“Mastered” SSJ1 Tier: Majin Freeza, Majin Coola, First Cell Jr., Piccolo, Dabra, Super Bojack, Perfect Cell (DBZ), SSJ Kakarotto
SSJ2 Tier: Mastered Super Trunks, Base Son Bra, Cold, Revived Cell (DBZ), Second Cell Jr., SSJ2 Emperor Vegeta, SSJ Ozaru Kakarotto, SSJ2 Majin Kakarotto
SSJ3 Tier: SSJ3 Emperor Vegeta, Fat Buu, Southern Kaioshin, Uub Max Kaioken, SSJ3 Goku (DBZ), Kid Buu, Hildegan, SSJ3 Young Gotenks, Base Super Buu
In-Between Tier: Majin Cell, Mystic Gohan, SSJ3 Adult Gotenks, Base Vegetto, SSJ Son Bra
SSJ4 Tier: Buu-Gotenks, Buu-Gohan
SSJ5 Tier: SSJ3 Mastered Adult Gotenks, SSJ2 Son Bra, SSJ Vegetto
SSJ6 Tier: SSJ2 Vegetto, Broly U20 at the end
SSJ7 Tier: SSJ3 Vegetto
Too vague: Broly U3, Hatchiyack, Majin C-17, Majin Cold
Yet to be seen: Goku, Vegeta, Gast, Zen Buu
Most of this is self-explanatory. Left to right is weakest to strongest within tiers, but some are basically interchangeable and their order doesn't matter, like Bojack and Dabra or DBZ Cell and SSJ Kakarotto. I have yet to read all of the novel or pore over Salagir's statements for more information, but based on the manga alone, I think all of this is correct.
I agree with quite a bit of this other than these few things, you shouldn’t really grade them by SSJ, rather than Tiers (SS, S, A, B, etc) as there are no known multipliers for anything above SSJ4, and also you scaling for SSJ Oozaru Kakarotto makes no sense if you believe him to be relative to Prince Vegeta’s MSSJ, as the Oozaru form with super Saiyan would be a x500 multiplier while SSJ2 is only a x100 times multiplier.
I said this in another comment, but for future reference: Salagir does not acknowledge multipliers or anything from guidebooks and interviews. The tier system comes from him, including all of the SSJ4 and higher brackets. It has nothing to do with SSJ4 from GT and is meant only to show how much stronger characters like Broly, Buu and Vegetto are than all the others.
The rigid tier system explains why, for example, Goku and Vegeta hadn't yet surpassed Mystic Gohan in the last U18 special after like ten years of constant training. Or, why base Goku was much weaker than Freeza in their tournament match: Goku could barely move in the gravity and Freeza had full control. Using power levels from the same guides that the SSJ multipliers come from, Freeza is a 120 million, so base Goku in the tournament could be no more than 60 million, which would make no sense using SSJ multipliers as he would end up being only 160 times stronger, even as a SSJ3, than he was on Namek. He had similar boosts in any of the given training arcs of DBZ that lasted from one year to a few days.
When talking about canon DBZ, I think the guidebooks are all in play and can make power discussions easier, but Salagir has made it a point to override them with his interpretation of the manga alone.
JJHinge
19 December 2020
imzy was saying:
JJHinge was saying: Not much to say; this is basically the page I was expecting. Could be interesting if Vegeta is the first to defend her, since Vegetto just attacked a mirror image of his baby girl. I can't wait to see the embarrassing lengths some people will go to argue that Vegetto did nothing wrong here.
Since there's not much else to discuss with this page, I am working on rebuilding the power pyramid that got deleted from DBM Wiki years ago. Here's the prototype:
“Mastered” SSJ1 Tier: Majin Freeza, Majin Coola, First Cell Jr., Piccolo, Dabra, Super Bojack, Perfect Cell (DBZ), SSJ Kakarotto
SSJ2 Tier: Mastered Super Trunks, Base Son Bra, Cold, Revived Cell (DBZ), Second Cell Jr., SSJ2 Emperor Vegeta, SSJ Ozaru Kakarotto, SSJ2 Majin Kakarotto
SSJ3 Tier: SSJ3 Emperor Vegeta, Fat Buu, Southern Kaioshin, Uub Max Kaioken, SSJ3 Goku (DBZ), Kid Buu, Hildegan, SSJ3 Young Gotenks, Base Super Buu
In-Between Tier: Majin Cell, Mystic Gohan, SSJ3 Adult Gotenks, Base Vegetto, SSJ Son Bra
SSJ4 Tier: Buu-Gotenks, Buu-Gohan
SSJ5 Tier: SSJ3 Mastered Adult Gotenks, SSJ2 Son Bra, SSJ Vegetto
SSJ6 Tier: SSJ2 Vegetto, Broly U20 at the end
SSJ7 Tier: SSJ3 Vegetto
Too vague: Broly U3, Hatchiyack, Majin C-17, Majin Cold
Yet to be seen: Goku, Vegeta, Gast, Zen Buu
Most of this is self-explanatory. Left to right is weakest to strongest within tiers, but some are basically interchangeable and their order doesn't matter, like Bojack and Dabra or DBZ Cell and SSJ Kakarotto. I have yet to read all of the novel or pore over Salagir's statements for more information, but based on the manga alone, I think all of this is correct.
ngl your tier system weird ssj5 to 7 don't even exist
i would say ssj3 vegito is around ssg to ssb goku level ish
Since there's not much else to discuss with this page, I am working on rebuilding the power pyramid that got deleted from DBM Wiki years ago. Here's the prototype:
“Mastered” SSJ1 Tier: Majin Freeza, Majin Coola, First Cell Jr., Piccolo, Dabra, Super Bojack, Perfect Cell (DBZ), SSJ Kakarotto
SSJ2 Tier: Mastered Super Trunks, Base Son Bra, Cold, Revived Cell (DBZ), Second Cell Jr., SSJ2 Emperor Vegeta, SSJ Ozaru Kakarotto, SSJ2 Majin Kakarotto
SSJ3 Tier: SSJ3 Emperor Vegeta, Fat Buu, Southern Kaioshin, Uub Max Kaioken, SSJ3 Goku (DBZ), Kid Buu, Hildegan, SSJ3 Young Gotenks, Base Super Buu
In-Between Tier: Majin Cell, Mystic Gohan, SSJ3 Adult Gotenks, Base Vegetto, SSJ Son Bra
SSJ4 Tier: Buu-Gotenks, Buu-Gohan
SSJ5 Tier: SSJ3 Mastered Adult Gotenks, SSJ2 Son Bra, SSJ Vegetto
SSJ6 Tier: SSJ2 Vegetto, Broly U20 at the end
SSJ7 Tier: SSJ3 Vegetto
Too vague: Broly U3, Hatchiyack, Majin C-17, Majin Cold
Yet to be seen: Goku, Vegeta, Gast, Zen Buu
Most of this is self-explanatory. Left to right is weakest to strongest within tiers, but some are basically interchangeable and their order doesn't matter, like Bojack and Dabra or DBZ Cell and SSJ Kakarotto. I have yet to read all of the novel or pore over Salagir's statements for more information, but based on the manga alone, I think all of this is correct.
ngl your tier system weird ssj5 to 7 don't even exist
i would say ssj3 vegito is around ssg to ssb goku level ish
Salagir's tier list from c. 2010 uses the SSJ4-SSJ6 brackets for characters stronger than DBZ Mystic Gohan and Base Vegetto. God forms don't exist in this manga, so moot point. You can't scale DBM to official canon; Salagir doesn't use guidebooks and Toriyama doesnt use any kind of rigid tier system.
JJHinge
19 December 2020
Darius was saying:
Piccolo should be next or above cell dbz level. Base bojak fought piccolo and Piccolo was able to stay with him. This Piccolo is stronger from past the Buu arc. Especially because piccolo should be about 30 to 35 years old a common misconception is that he is about as old as Goku but he grew to be taller then Goku in about 3 years. If if they are around the same age body wise it's because Goku died for 8 years in total. It actually makes me wonder why dende was still a shrimp when we meet him on earth considering that it had been 4 years. Since kami and piccolo are of different classes my headcanon to dende slow growth is that warriors advance their skeletal system to fight better. So both Pans' should be in front of bojak. Since she lost to him. Bojak wasnt stated to have gotten any stronger. Plus piccolo never got to fight Dabra but I don't think he feared his power.
Piccolo should be next or above cell dbz level. Base bojak fought piccolo and Piccolo was able to stay with him. This Piccolo is stronger from past the Buu arc. Especially because piccolo should be about 30 to 35 years old a common misconception is that he is about as old as Goku but he grew to be taller then Goku in about 3 years. If if they are around the same age body wise it's because Goku died for 8 years in total. It actually makes me wonder why dende was still a shrimp when we meet him on earth considering that it had been 4 years. Since kami and piccolo are of different classes my headcanon to dende slow growth is that warriors advance their skeletal system to fight better. So both Pans' should be in front of bojak. Since she lost to him. Bojak wasnt stated to have gotten any stronger. Plus piccolo never got to fight Dabra but I don't think he feared his power.
Noted. That also moves Coola up to keep him close to Piccolo.
Ashanark was saying:
Food for thought: we haven't seen a single person Bra killed this chapter. We've seen the general devastation of the rebellion, and bodies killed by other people (Naurb, West Kai, etc.) but not a single glimpse of U16 Gohan's halves, Ned, Phipsil, or what's left of the Piccolos and Cell. All the corpses we've seen were spread out among the edges of the arena while Bra's casualties were either close to Bra or else in the arena itself, where the contestants teleported in. Yet we certainly didn't get the reactions of the contestants walking past them.
Why has the story skipped over the contestants seeing Bra's kills to show them looking at other people's kills? Why has the story shown U18 Pan's reaction to her injured father but not U16 Pan's reaction to her dead father--something people were wanting to see since Majin Bra was revealed, and especially after she killed Gohan? It's because right now we are supposed to forgive Bra. And to do that, Salagir needs to 1) very quickly distance her from the bad things she's done, and 2) retcon Vegito. If he can make Vegito look worse than Bra, we will forget about Bra and focus on Vegito. (Naruto pulls a similar trick: to redeem its villains, it frequently introduces a new, worse villain to blame things on.)
Murder-Vegito did not exist pre-2020: there's no sign Bra feared her father might kill her, 2008-2019. Vegito has been retconned.
Vegito has consistently been shown to have a temper, but he has never once killed out of anger in DBM. (Bra has, by the way.) His anger has always been controlled: hitting Bardock and Cold in a way they aren't even damaged enough to affect their fight; knocking out Frieza and Cooler with calculated blows. Heck, when Ginyu stole Bra's body, Vegito's threat was ultimately a bluff: he found a way to solve the situation without killing Ginyu, let alone destroy Ginyu's soul like he said he would. That was a known, non-Majinized villain deliberately screwing with a family member and yet Vegito still showed amazing restraint. When KOing Bra last flashback, he used just enough force to knock her unconscious and stopped there. Bra goes SS2 in space against Buu and nearly kills him? "You were great up there." For Vegito to finally snap here requires an exaggerated Vegito.
Vegito's actions this page also require him to completely ignore his own experience with Majinization. He knows what it's like to have Babidi in your head, so for this page to happen, he must blindly ignore all extenuating circumstances, avoid talking it out, and instead go straight for the kill.
But even with this retcon, Vegito explained to Bra he would kill her because he had to protect his universe. That was his stated purpose, and that is his motivation here. He warned Bra ahead of time what the consequences would be. Is that a bad motivation? He's literally killing Bra to protect innocent people. If we can forgive Bra for killing innocents--billions of innocents--why is Vegito not forgivable for, after a warning, killing one person to protect innocents?
Nobody cared when Frieza killed Burter for less provocation and a less noble reason--heck, it was played for laughs. But a father beating a daughter is too heavily coded into human genetics as abuse for us to feel anything but sympathy for the daughter, regardless of the actual situation. It's exploitative writing. If anyone was to attack Bra in this situation it should've been someone else, weaker, to keep her from being portrayed as a victim right after killing people.
We are seeing Vegito in the worst possible light, and Bra in the best possible light, and this is after both were retconned to make Vegito worse than he ever was. Retcons indicate a lack of planning, and the fact it was for Bra's sake only serves to highlight how much the story favors Bra.
Why has the story skipped over the contestants seeing Bra's kills to show them looking at other people's kills? Why has the story shown U18 Pan's reaction to her injured father but not U16 Pan's reaction to her dead father--something people were wanting to see since Majin Bra was revealed, and especially after she killed Gohan? It's because right now we are supposed to forgive Bra. And to do that, Salagir needs to 1) very quickly distance her from the bad things she's done, and 2) retcon Vegito. If he can make Vegito look worse than Bra, we will forget about Bra and focus on Vegito. (Naruto pulls a similar trick: to redeem its villains, it frequently introduces a new, worse villain to blame things on.)
Murder-Vegito did not exist pre-2020: there's no sign Bra feared her father might kill her, 2008-2019. Vegito has been retconned.
Vegito has consistently been shown to have a temper, but he has never once killed out of anger in DBM. (Bra has, by the way.) His anger has always been controlled: hitting Bardock and Cold in a way they aren't even damaged enough to affect their fight; knocking out Frieza and Cooler with calculated blows. Heck, when Ginyu stole Bra's body, Vegito's threat was ultimately a bluff: he found a way to solve the situation without killing Ginyu, let alone destroy Ginyu's soul like he said he would. That was a known, non-Majinized villain deliberately screwing with a family member and yet Vegito still showed amazing restraint. When KOing Bra last flashback, he used just enough force to knock her unconscious and stopped there. Bra goes SS2 in space against Buu and nearly kills him? "You were great up there." For Vegito to finally snap here requires an exaggerated Vegito.
Vegito's actions this page also require him to completely ignore his own experience with Majinization. He knows what it's like to have Babidi in your head, so for this page to happen, he must blindly ignore all extenuating circumstances, avoid talking it out, and instead go straight for the kill.
But even with this retcon, Vegito explained to Bra he would kill her because he had to protect his universe. That was his stated purpose, and that is his motivation here. He warned Bra ahead of time what the consequences would be. Is that a bad motivation? He's literally killing Bra to protect innocent people. If we can forgive Bra for killing innocents--billions of innocents--why is Vegito not forgivable for, after a warning, killing one person to protect innocents?
Nobody cared when Frieza killed Burter for less provocation and a less noble reason--heck, it was played for laughs. But a father beating a daughter is too heavily coded into human genetics as abuse for us to feel anything but sympathy for the daughter, regardless of the actual situation. It's exploitative writing. If anyone was to attack Bra in this situation it should've been someone else, weaker, to keep her from being portrayed as a victim right after killing people.
We are seeing Vegito in the worst possible light, and Bra in the best possible light, and this is after both were retconned to make Vegito worse than he ever was. Retcons indicate a lack of planning, and the fact it was for Bra's sake only serves to highlight how much the story favors Bra.
Good point. To me at least, though, since the early battles, it's been clear that Salagir wants to write Vegetto as an erratic douchebag at all the critical moments: going back on his threat to withdraw Bra for killing Zangya, then a few chapters later, barely being able to contain his own anger toward Gohan and sulking while Buu rampaged, and all that was only in the early tournament. He also never asked her if she was alright after the Ginyu showdown. So, I don't see it as a complete retcon. The problem which you correctly point out is that what Salagir wants to get across and what he actually portrays moment-to-moment are near polar opposites. Bra never showed a hint of being afraid of her dad, and Vegetto never showed contempt for his daughter. The whole last special and Vegetto's threat might have been better off never happening; if this page's beatdown had come out of nowhere, it would have been more out of left field, but still jived with what we know about Vegetto and made the situation less one-sided toward him being in the wrong. But then Bra never would have had a good reason to go to Babidi, so... looks like this was a no-win scenario to write and it should have been overhauled to begin with.
JJHinge
18 December 2020
Dr Raichi was saying:
freaky was saying: Dr Raichi was saying: freaky was saying: pofehof was saying: CrystalMV was saying:
And U13 Krillin NOT being there surely doesn't change the fact (but to the contrary, seals it) that Kakarotto killed him. The point is that Kakarotto feeling bad about killing Krillin doesn't mean shit versus Bra not feeling bad about killing Goten if Krillin is dead while Goten is alive, right there.
Dude, Bra still killed Goten, whether she had control of herself or not, the least she could do is not be an ass to him. This is part of the reason why people don't like her.
ok il bring in my piece here
1 she didn't remember what she did she only just activated ssj2
2 she knows the dragonballs can fix everything which from a young age you take for granted
look at future trunks he has no dragonballs and doesnt take things for granted
everyone in u16 and 18 takes the dragonballs for granted
oh i killed my brother without knowing ....its ok dragonballs
so yeah im putting that on the table for you anti bra people
check mate
Good to know that if you had access to Dragon Balls in real life, you'd be perfectly willing to excuse murder. After all, it's not permanent and they DIDNT MEAN TOOOO
Thank god you don't.
Checkmate.
sooo when goku cant remember stepping on his grandfather and killing him and he doesnt rememeber doing it .....i guess his a murderer too
Yes. Goku even acknowledges this himself when he learns the truth. "It was me, I killed Grandpa"
That's how it works, murder is murder.
I once met this guy who casually told me he murdered his girlfriend. On her birthday. When she turned 16.
The guy went to an institution for a few years but was eventually released.
When asked why, he said I was angry, I didn't mean to do it.
Stayed the hell away from him for the rest of the year.
He said it so casually too, like, I didn't even know him for more than 10 minutes.
And U13 Krillin NOT being there surely doesn't change the fact (but to the contrary, seals it) that Kakarotto killed him. The point is that Kakarotto feeling bad about killing Krillin doesn't mean shit versus Bra not feeling bad about killing Goten if Krillin is dead while Goten is alive, right there.
Dude, Bra still killed Goten, whether she had control of herself or not, the least she could do is not be an ass to him. This is part of the reason why people don't like her.
ok il bring in my piece here
1 she didn't remember what she did she only just activated ssj2
2 she knows the dragonballs can fix everything which from a young age you take for granted
look at future trunks he has no dragonballs and doesnt take things for granted
everyone in u16 and 18 takes the dragonballs for granted
oh i killed my brother without knowing ....its ok dragonballs
so yeah im putting that on the table for you anti bra people
check mate
Good to know that if you had access to Dragon Balls in real life, you'd be perfectly willing to excuse murder. After all, it's not permanent and they DIDNT MEAN TOOOO
Thank god you don't.
Checkmate.
sooo when goku cant remember stepping on his grandfather and killing him and he doesnt rememeber doing it .....i guess his a murderer too
Yes. Goku even acknowledges this himself when he learns the truth. "It was me, I killed Grandpa"
That's how it works, murder is murder.
I once met this guy who casually told me he murdered his girlfriend. On her birthday. When she turned 16.
The guy went to an institution for a few years but was eventually released.
When asked why, he said I was angry, I didn't mean to do it.
Stayed the hell away from him for the rest of the year.
He said it so casually too, like, I didn't even know him for more than 10 minutes.
Stop. No one asked. Why would you bring a real murder into this. It's barely even related to what you were talking about. Did you think "Yes, I will win this Dragon Ball argument by dredging up a disturbing personal story. Checkmate, Bra fanboy."
JJHinge
18 December 2020
Argelios was saying:
JJHinge was saying:
How many times do you have to see the words "mind control." Apparently a few more, because you didn't even bring it up. It's kind of important to the situation. You framed it like Bra killed all those people on her own.
Re read this page:
Dr Raichi was saying:
With Bra it's the opossite. Every single goddamn time, the narrative excuses her behavior. She killed Zangya, well she didn't mean to, she lost control in space, it's Vegito's fault for not training her properly, she disregards her promise with the heliots? Hey she had a backup. She goes majin? Well it's Vegito's fault she's evil.
Based.
Might I add:
— She gets slaughtered by Cold, she has senzus (even tho she didn't during Buu's fight in space)
— She gets a body change, doesn't even experience it
— She gets her arm chopped up by Cell, she has more senzus
— She gets played by Gohan and Philpsil, she steals more senzus
Vagabond was saying:
Bra has excuses. Vegeta did not.
Vegeta died for it.
JJHinge was saying: Are you seriously making the argument that it was in-character for Bra to kill her entire family and a bunch of civilians, and be a slave forever just to get a bit stronger? It's really laughable how someone can read a comic and come away with such a bad take
Bra didn't break the spell when she killed her friends, she broke it when she got her hurt and she even admitted she considered civilians "worthless", but anyway, victim time!
How many times do you have to see the words "mind control." Apparently a few more, because you didn't even bring it up. It's kind of important to the situation. You framed it like Bra killed all those people on her own.
Re read this page:
Dr Raichi was saying:
With Bra it's the opossite. Every single goddamn time, the narrative excuses her behavior. She killed Zangya, well she didn't mean to, she lost control in space, it's Vegito's fault for not training her properly, she disregards her promise with the heliots? Hey she had a backup. She goes majin? Well it's Vegito's fault she's evil.
Based.
Might I add:
— She gets slaughtered by Cold, she has senzus (even tho she didn't during Buu's fight in space)
— She gets a body change, doesn't even experience it
— She gets her arm chopped up by Cell, she has more senzus
— She gets played by Gohan and Philpsil, she steals more senzus
Vagabond was saying:
Bra has excuses. Vegeta did not.
Vegeta died for it.
JJHinge was saying: Are you seriously making the argument that it was in-character for Bra to kill her entire family and a bunch of civilians, and be a slave forever just to get a bit stronger? It's really laughable how someone can read a comic and come away with such a bad take
Bra didn't break the spell when she killed her friends, she broke it when she got her hurt and she even admitted she considered civilians "worthless", but anyway, victim time!
Weird choice to reply to a reply by editing your original comment. Anyway, you omitted the little part where I argued why it was out of character in the first place, so I guess the words "mind control" still didn't click. I really don't want to waste much more of my analyzing a DBM fan character like many have, so unless someone says something really outrageous on this subject, I'm done with it. I've already given a simple plot-based explanation for this particular issue, but everyone seems way more interested in escalating these debates to a bizarre psychoanalytical level that I have no interest in.
JJHinge
18 December 2020
Argelios was saying:
JJHinge was saying:
How many times do you have to see the words "mind control." Apparently a few more, because you didn't even bring it up. It's kind of important to the situation. You framed it like Bra killed all those people on her own.
Re read this page:
Dr Raichi was saying:
With Bra it's the opossite. Every single goddamn time, the narrative excuses her behavior. She killed Zangya, well she didn't mean to, she lost control in space, it's Vegito's fault for not training her properly, she disregards her promise with the heliots? Hey she had a backup. She goes majin? Well it's Vegito's fault she's evil.
Based.
Might I add:
— She gets slaughtered by Cold, she has senzus (even tho she didn't during Buu's fight in space)
— She gets a body change, doesn't even experience it
— She gets her arm chopped up by Cell, she has more senzus
— She gets played by Gohan and Philpsil, she steals more senzus
How many times do you have to see the words "mind control." Apparently a few more, because you didn't even bring it up. It's kind of important to the situation. You framed it like Bra killed all those people on her own.
Re read this page:
Dr Raichi was saying:
With Bra it's the opossite. Every single goddamn time, the narrative excuses her behavior. She killed Zangya, well she didn't mean to, she lost control in space, it's Vegito's fault for not training her properly, she disregards her promise with the heliots? Hey she had a backup. She goes majin? Well it's Vegito's fault she's evil.
Based.
Might I add:
— She gets slaughtered by Cold, she has senzus (even tho she didn't during Buu's fight in space)
— She gets a body change, doesn't even experience it
— She gets her arm chopped up by Cell, she has more senzus
— She gets played by Gohan and Philpsil, she steals more senzus
I'm not saying Salagir framed the mind control in the best way or that Bra's fights have been written well, but mind control is mind control. Dabra serves Babidi for eternity after vowing never to leave his kingdom. What else do you need. On that very page, Gohan said that Babidi changed her personality. Are you seriously making the argument that it was in-character for Bra to kill her entire family and a bunch of bystanders, and be a slave forever just to get a bit stronger? She didn't even kill Cold when she had the chance. It's really laughable how someone can read a comic and come away with such a bad take, on top of this same Bra argument going on for like half a decade. 1 Replie(s)
JJHinge
18 December 2020
Ashanark was saying:
Consider: we still have not seen U16 Pan's reaction to U16 Gohan being bisected by Bra. Why? Because if Pan actually asked Bra why she did that, or even reacted to it, that would make Bra look bad. There is no reason not to see this scene, yet instead, we've skipped over it. Why?
Instead, we have jumped straight to Vegito--as in-character as it is for him--kicking Bra. It's the exact same shindig as the flashback: an adult authority figure on both feet contrasted with a crying young girl on the ground and defenseless. (Note the goshdarn panel of her big, innocent, teary eyes!) Except now he's physically hurting her.
Vegito is not being portrayed as in the right here, or even justified in his anger.
If Vegito isn't in the right, then Bra is undeserving of this treatment, and therefore she is in the right.
Bra murdered all these people and she is in the right.
This is literally the exact worst possible outcome of this rebellion: Bra turns evil, kills everyone, breaks the seal by herself, apologizes, then immediately has Vegito not only not accept her apology, but physically abuse her so we feel sorry for her. Sigh.
Instead, we have jumped straight to Vegito--as in-character as it is for him--kicking Bra. It's the exact same shindig as the flashback: an adult authority figure on both feet contrasted with a crying young girl on the ground and defenseless. (Note the goshdarn panel of her big, innocent, teary eyes!) Except now he's physically hurting her.
Vegito is not being portrayed as in the right here, or even justified in his anger.
If Vegito isn't in the right, then Bra is undeserving of this treatment, and therefore she is in the right.
Bra murdered all these people and she is in the right.
This is literally the exact worst possible outcome of this rebellion: Bra turns evil, kills everyone, breaks the seal by herself, apologizes, then immediately has Vegito not only not accept her apology, but physically abuse her so we feel sorry for her. Sigh.
How many times do you have to see the words "mind control." Apparently a few more, because you didn't even bring it up. It's kind of important to the situation. You framed it like Bra killed all those people on her own. 2 Replie(s)
JJHinge
18 December 2020
Not much to say; this is basically the page I was expecting. Could be interesting if Vegeta is the first to defend her, since Vegetto just attacked a mirror image of his baby girl. I can't wait to see the embarrassing lengths some people will go to argue that Vegetto did nothing wrong here.
Since there's not much else to discuss with this page, I am working on rebuilding the power pyramid that got deleted from DBM Wiki years ago. Here's the prototype:
“Mastered” SSJ1 Tier: Majin Freeza, Majin Coola, First Cell Jr., Piccolo, Dabra, Super Bojack, Perfect Cell (DBZ), SSJ Kakarotto
SSJ2 Tier: Mastered Super Trunks, Base Son Bra, Cold, Revived Cell (DBZ), Second Cell Jr., SSJ2 Emperor Vegeta, SSJ Ozaru Kakarotto, SSJ2 Majin Kakarotto
SSJ3 Tier: SSJ3 Emperor Vegeta, Fat Buu, Southern Kaioshin, Uub Max Kaioken, SSJ3 Goku (DBZ), Kid Buu, Hildegan, SSJ3 Young Gotenks, Base Super Buu
In-Between Tier: Majin Cell, Mystic Gohan, SSJ3 Adult Gotenks, Base Vegetto, SSJ Son Bra
SSJ4 Tier: Buu-Gotenks, Buu-Gohan
SSJ5 Tier: SSJ3 Mastered Adult Gotenks, SSJ2 Son Bra, SSJ Vegetto
SSJ6 Tier: SSJ2 Vegetto, Broly U20 at the end
SSJ7 Tier: SSJ3 Vegetto
Too vague: Broly U3, Hatchiyack, Majin C-17, Majin Cold
Yet to be seen: Goku, Vegeta, Gast, Zen Buu
Most of this is self-explanatory. Left to right is weakest to strongest within tiers, but some are basically interchangeable and their order doesn't matter, like Bojack and Dabra or DBZ Cell and SSJ Kakarotto. I have yet to read all of the novel or pore over Salagir's statements for more information, but based on the manga alone, I think all of this is correct. 3 Replie(s)
DB Multiverse page 1822
Since there's not much else to discuss with this page, I am working on rebuilding the power pyramid that got deleted from DBM Wiki years ago. Here's the prototype:
“Mastered” SSJ1 Tier: Majin Freeza, Majin Coola, First Cell Jr., Piccolo, Dabra, Super Bojack, Perfect Cell (DBZ), SSJ Kakarotto
SSJ2 Tier: Mastered Super Trunks, Base Son Bra, Cold, Revived Cell (DBZ), Second Cell Jr., SSJ2 Emperor Vegeta, SSJ Ozaru Kakarotto, SSJ2 Majin Kakarotto
SSJ3 Tier: SSJ3 Emperor Vegeta, Fat Buu, Southern Kaioshin, Uub Max Kaioken, SSJ3 Goku (DBZ), Kid Buu, Hildegan, SSJ3 Young Gotenks, Base Super Buu
In-Between Tier: Majin Cell, Mystic Gohan, SSJ3 Adult Gotenks, Base Vegetto, SSJ Son Bra
SSJ4 Tier: Buu-Gotenks, Buu-Gohan
SSJ5 Tier: SSJ3 Mastered Adult Gotenks, SSJ2 Son Bra, SSJ Vegetto
SSJ6 Tier: SSJ2 Vegetto, Broly U20 at the end
SSJ7 Tier: SSJ3 Vegetto
Too vague: Broly U3, Hatchiyack, Majin C-17, Majin Cold
Yet to be seen: Goku, Vegeta, Gast, Zen Buu
Most of this is self-explanatory. Left to right is weakest to strongest within tiers, but some are basically interchangeable and their order doesn't matter, like Bojack and Dabra or DBZ Cell and SSJ Kakarotto. I have yet to read all of the novel or pore over Salagir's statements for more information, but based on the manga alone, I think all of this is correct. 3 Replie(s)
JJHinge
18 December 2020
Next page incoming. Prepare for more cringeworthy over-analysis of Son Bra's character in the comments!
DB Multiverse page 1821
JJHinge
17 December 2020
Dr Raichi was saying:
Ma Jr was saying: Dr Raichi was saying: Also, I know Raditz will be mystic at some point. But I hope it's handled in such a way that the payoff is worth it.
I you dont have hidden potential (like Gohan) the Old Kai's ritual is useless.
The payoff will probably be that he is not that much stronger.
Anyway, Vegetto, this is on you, so take care of your daughter.
How does he "not have much potential?"
I mean, theoreticly, he has the potential to become a ssj3.
Regardless of whether he ever achieves ssj1, every saiyan can, in theory, become a ssj3
That's just an ability the saiyan body has.
Although your scenario would be incredibly funny:
After standing still for 24 hours.
I have unleached your potential, you are now equal to Frieza saga Goku.
That's it? That's my full potential?
That it is.
So it's?
All downhill from here.
Like Raditz full potential is barely unlocking ssj and he's maxed out.
I you dont have hidden potential (like Gohan) the Old Kai's ritual is useless.
The payoff will probably be that he is not that much stronger.
Anyway, Vegetto, this is on you, so take care of your daughter.
How does he "not have much potential?"
I mean, theoreticly, he has the potential to become a ssj3.
Regardless of whether he ever achieves ssj1, every saiyan can, in theory, become a ssj3
That's just an ability the saiyan body has.
Although your scenario would be incredibly funny:
After standing still for 24 hours.
I have unleached your potential, you are now equal to Frieza saga Goku.
That's it? That's my full potential?
That it is.
So it's?
All downhill from here.
Like Raditz full potential is barely unlocking ssj and he's maxed out.
If this wasn't DBM, Raditz would surpass SSJ3 Buu Saga Goku level, no doubt. But this is a story where Raditz and Nappa never became basic Super Saiyans or surpassed Freeza after like twenty years of presumably frequent fighting, and witnessing Vegeta face Cooler, Cold, Dabura, and possibly Broly. I doubt Salagir is planning on the Mystic Raditz plot sputtering out into nothing, but that would make the most sense within the lore.
JJHinge
16 December 2020
Staarmie was saying:
newhinhin was saying: Why not telling them about U9?
Because Raditz has a special mission for U13's liberation.
Gojita: It's not Kakarotto who U13 Vegeta should be worried about..
Because Raditz has a special mission for U13's liberation.
Gojita: It's not Kakarotto who U13 Vegeta should be worried about..
Knowing Buu, he may just want Raditz to finish the ritual to have another strong fighter in the mix and cause chaos. My first thought was that he would try to absorb Raditz, but even if he doesn't know about Old Kai's brainwashing plan, the humans will snitch right away.
DannyDred: Interesting theory that the tournament will be cancelled. However, something still has to spark Vegetto's rampage, and it would be clumsy if he yelled at Bra here for killing Gohan, then just killed him again after everyone is revived and the cancellation announcement happens. The only issue is that I can't see how Grand Kaioshin can justify continuing to the others, since he was the only one who wanted the tournament and was already being suspected by North and East long before Babidi's attack. Hopefully Buu has planned for all of this.
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