papupata was saying: A canned Solar Flare??
Yeah apparently flash bangs work, though Goku Black didn't yet know how to sense ki at the time and this one probably can. That being said, I can imagine him being too angry at his counterpart to focus.

Damian Qualshy was saying: Zamasu forgot he can heal people
Zamasu can't.

migoq was saying: watch her get killed, ki blast through the smoke
It's a flash bang.

Damian Qualshy was saying: mAc Chaos was saying: Damian Qualshy was saying: DrewSaga was saying: Goku Black should be struggling by now tbh. The whole point of a Max level Kaioken is that it can't be sustained.
Don't worry, the author made it so Zamasu uses Kaioken with absolutely zero drawbacks.
to be fair goku in super basically uses it for free now

neat zamasu technique, this reminds me of fat buu vs kid buu
Oh yeah, Goku also started spamming it.. Well, he spammed it on Namek too without any repercussions, eeeh. I just feel like saying "I'm Zamasu a god so I can do it no problem" is a bit too much.
he said he practiced it so it sounds fine to me

Damian Qualshy was saying: DrewSaga was saying: Goku Black should be struggling by now tbh. The whole point of a Max level Kaioken is that it can't be sustained.
Don't worry, the author made it so Zamasu uses Kaioken with absolutely zero drawbacks.
to be fair goku in super basically uses it for free now

neat zamasu technique, this reminds me of fat buu vs kid buu

Goku Black should be struggling by now tbh. The whole point of a Max level Kaioken is that it can't be sustained.

I stand by my opinion that it would have been much more meaningful for Pan's character (arc) if she hadn't punched Kakarot after her very first SSJ transformation. I accept, however, that I may be in the minority here.
...
Beautifully drawn by Asura and phenomenal work by the coloring team. I love your dedication for this project. Don't let critics get you down. You're all doing an excellent job. :)

So she got turned into Mr. Fist-of-the-north-star

Damian Qualshy was saying: We have no confirmation that Gero and 19 didn't show up exactly the same in the original timeline, especially since they were essentially weaker than everyone anyway. All we know for sure is that 17 and 18 killed Gero and Z-Fighters and went on a killing spree, but Trunks mightve not gotten all the details from Gohan or his mom.
Trunks being in the past and affecting everyone changed the course of history (obviously), but not him simply time traveling to that timeline.
Well, there's also the fact the androids were so merciful in the beginning in the first place, instead of just murdering everyone after defeating them. They were just way less evil out of the gate. And the strength difference (though that one can be explained by the androids always toying with Gohan and Trunks in the future).

Damian Qualshy was saying: Teleported_Bread was saying: bigdeano89 was saying: Likely the reason Gowasu is still alive is because Black assumed Zamasu would take care of him.
Another possibility. Don't forget, Trunks's time machines causes distortions when it arrives in another timeline. Its function isn't perfect. I wonder if Bulma would have been able to make a perfect time machine if Capsule Corp was in one piece and not affected by the Cyborgs' attacks on Humanity.
No distortion when Trunks returned to the past in DBS though. Or when he first appeared in the past (the timeline that we never saw) and then died to Cell when coming back.
People take it for granted that "oo Trunks time traveling causes major disturbances" like.. no it doesn't? The only example of it happening is when two of the same time machine landed in the same timeline with a difference of one year. So it was Cell's fault not Trunks'.
I never said they were major. They're usually subtle, but it's hypothetically possible for bigger changes to occur. As for why Trunks didn't cause another when he returned in DBS, my best guess is that the time machine can't do it twice. Maybe cause it's familiar with the timeline already and has it on record? Maybe another reason?

Damian Qualshy was saying:
No distortion when Trunks returned to the past in DBS though. Or when he first appeared in the past (the timeline that we never saw) and then died to Cell when coming back.
People take it for granted that "oo Trunks time traveling causes major disturbances" like.. no it doesn't? The only example of it happening is when two of the same time machine landed in the same timeline with a difference of one year. So it was Cell's fault not Trunks'.

How do you know it didnt? There's no way to know if a distortion occured in DBS or not because there is literally nothing to compare it against. The only reason Trunks recognized a "distortion" in DBZ is because he was informed by his own future memories that things weren't lining up.

bigdeano89 was saying: Likely the reason Gowasu is still alive is because Black assumed Zamasu would take care of him.
Another possibility. Don't forget, Trunks's time machines causes distortions when it arrives in another timeline. Its function isn't perfect. I wonder if Bulma would have been able to make a perfect time machine if Capsule Corp was in one piece and not affected by the Cyborgs' attacks on Humanity.

A breach? Whos willing to bet Shallot and Giblet get caught up in it which is how they end up in the legends tournament lol

I firmly believe this is what Future Zamasu would have become - somebody who finally recognized his master's wisdom and teachings - had Goku Black not traveled to Trunks's timeline.

ShMike was saying: Oh goodness, I hope the inevitable Traumasu doesn't end up permanent.
Trunks's soul is mortal and this Zamasu is still an Apprentice Supreme Kai/Supreme Kai in Training (the Zamasu in Goku's timeline usurped the title of Supreme Kai from Gowasu after killing him and gave his future counterpart Future Gowasu's Potara Earring after killing him for Future Zamasu, which is why their fusion never undid itself), so it shouldn't be permanent.

so I'm a bit mixed on this, colouring is nice but I don't agree with the design choice where Uub is born.

We know uub was raised in a remote setting with a village that didn't have a lot of wealth and poverty, however architecture looks more akin to Africa than based on parts of India like Khuri village if we want to go with Ubb brought up within a hot desert environment (because India has deserts) whose houses are styled differently. Thatched roofs in south asia are not typically the same style as traditional african architecture.

Though Uub's village had plenty of natural resources.






There are images of uub's home a few seconds sure (before the super manga) so I don't see why the change was needed. I am a bit picky on that considering other areas from south east asia could be used as a template.

We'll see how ten kids turn out as cast, it's a bit large so we'll see.

Using Special material? Is the rule broken?

King Kindred was saying: Ellie was saying: Teleported_Bread was saying: RetroOVER9000 was saying: Well Trunks, you should be ashamed. You kind of suck. But that's a Super writing issue.

Looks like you're getting a new fusion so stop your bitching.
Do you ever can it? And Trunks never sucked in Super. In fact he's talking like this here because he couldn't beat Goku Black and he's far from having the strength to take both him and Future Zamasu, who's immortal last he check, by himself. As far as he's concerned, he's literally going to be forced to watch his world and loved ones die a slow and agonizing death all over again.
How did your comment even get approved?

Trunks was an extremely strong start of a character but Z quickly diminished him into being a manbaby.

Neither you nor Retro know what you're talking about. Trunks in Super is literally the same character he was in Z. He has had to end world/universe ending threats on his own for years and watched his mother be killed before his very eyes by someone who stole Goku's body.

Even then he didn't give up and still tried to save his future and rip fused Zamasu a new one.

Give one non-dilluded example of him being a manbaby.
Exactly. Saying Trunks is a manbaby or something is one of the most empty, nonsense criticisms you can say. He is literally the exact same person facing an ever-evolving opponent he's fought numerous times and is powerless against every time, whose caused him more grief and trauma than anyone before him has. What do you even want from Trunks in Super, if not to feel the weight of his world that he's struggling to keep from slowly dying before his eyes in ways that pale in comparison to the Cybrogs?
DBS had a lot of criticisms but 90% of them were just straight-up shortsighted or were exaggerations. Gohan is a prime example of this; He retires so he can help his pregnant wife and later his newborn child, then when Frieza shows up in the DBS anime, he's tortured and riddled with holes by Frieza, who'd achieved a level of power none of Earth's defenders besides Goku and Vegeta could hope to match even combined. Despite receiving devastating injuries, he stands up and pushes his body to near death just so he could give his father a proper signal to lock onto and save everybody. After Frieza's second death, Gohan decides he needs to retrain himself and not only regains his Ultimate form, but surpasses it and becomes everything Gohan fans want him to be. And yet, even though Gohan did all that selflessness like a strong warrior and overcame his former strength and weaknesses, DBS critics and haters would still call Gohan pathetic, say how writers butchered him and act like nothing aforementioned ever happened. It's one of the reasons why I kept defending DBS, because most of the things I kept seeing people say just fell too short or flat, they didn't work or make sense.

Nice colorful emphasis on the shocked reactions of Universe 9. I'd be shocked too if I was singled out by a lunatic Saiyan like that. It's really interesting to see these unexpected dynamics between a universe dominated by Saiyans and one by humans.

It makes me think about Raditz and how much he's been impacted by U9 with his power up and the negotiations conducted. I wouldn't mind seeing him changed a bit. Not a good guy, per se, but someone 'different'. Kinda sounds like Bardock in Raichi's universe. I doubt Raditz would appreciate being compared to his father though.

Damian Qualshy was saying: Okay so it's a real Future-ish Zamasu. God damn what took him so long?

TheOG was saying: I never did understand the zero mortals plan. Didn't it START with them killing a Kai? Didn't they say they were going to kill the gods too...?
Wasn't it specified in the show and Manga? Zamasu despises how gods operate and how they're not doing anything about mortalsthat's why he planned to be the only one, and kill everyone because he saw Barbarians in U10.
The entire "kill everyone plan" is stupid (as genocide usually is) because why exactly would he want to be the only entity left in the entire multiverse? Killing the other gods I get, or just all mortals, but both?
Nah it makes sense. I mean real life religion has it. Noah's Flood, for example.

Maybe Zamasu would start over with a clean slate of mortals who deserve to live. Or he just leaves them gone since they were a failed experiment.

I never did understand the zero mortals plan. Didn't it START with them killing a Kai? Didn't they say they were going to kill the gods too...?

King Kindred was saying: Damian Qualshy was saying: The art took a massive hit on this page, what happened to their faces? And heads?


Hit is crazy. I completely disagree. The art looks a lot better here.

first panel is amazing, the rest of the page is also very good, i have no idea where at all the art is bad on this page...

Damian Qualshy was saying: The art took a massive hit on this page, what happened to their faces? And heads?

Ayashi was saying: Honetly i dont see how this story makes any sense anymore...
It's just a fight? What sense do you want it to make.



They are " bonus " page I have draw this year, they are not in the original version ! ( i draw the original fanmanga in 2019 )

Damian Qualshy was saying: To everyone thinking it's Goku: how in the hell would he even get here without a Time Ring? And where would he get the clothes and Potara? And why? And Black killed him anyway??

The fact that this Zamasu has two Potara earrings is concerning though. It seems this timeline Black worked alone and never went to Future Zamasu. But then.. He never killed the Supreme Kais of all universes?

By my own admission, my suspicion is less so here with his outfit.

I personally no longer think its goku with this page and some hind sight.

its probably just zamasu, but I wonder if hes immortal or just regular zamasu. I also assume he merges with trunks here.

Honetly i dont see how this story makes any sense anymore...

Damian Qualshy was saying: Oh he's gonna STAB him, my god where the hell is Whis when you need him?
Even if Whis was here, he would do nothing, don't u remember? Angels are forbidden to involve themselves in fights, they can only dodge or train.

You know, I also never considered Goku in Zamasus body. Like, we know from their sparing match that they were very close in power. And it's not like Goku forgot martial arts, idk why he went out the way he did. It's not like Zamasu Ginyu'd himself beforehand. I feel like at the moment of the wish, Goku would have been able to survive long enough to go get help, instead of just being like, what? My body? x.x. I mean he can mimic and use techniques that he sees once or twice, he's already been body swapped before he should have realized and adapted sooner. Edit, just looked it up, he went back to like the "first" episode of super, pre-BoG, so nvm.

brolyhater was saying: nisutaro was saying: IMHO for what I saw, it seems that something may have have changed everything, aside for Vegeta who may have kept 18.000 like the original counterpart.

Evil team
— Vegeta: 18.000
— Nappa: 4.500 (I don't think he was much stronger than original counterpart. He was the second in charge but a mid elite who already trained himself without too many opportunities to grow more)
— Raditz: 1.950 (he bear the title of weakling but maybe in this universe was much stronger compared to his original power level, potentially have been even trained poorly with Gohan and co.)
— Gohan: 3.500 (max 8.500 when enraged and at his peak)

Good guys
— Tien: 3.100 (he even trained with base Goku who in original canon was 5.000, so in these years without any so special training this was a good level, surpassing his 1.830).
— Krillin: 2.880 (in the original version he was around 1.770 and until Bop's saga he was always below Tien and I doubt that Goku trained him)
— Yamcha: 2.450 (much stronger compared to Raditz and in these years and compared to his original 1.480)
— Jaozi: 1.700 (slightly less stronger than Krillin on original version but training with Tien has paid his fruits)

You’re low balling Gohan way too much. Tien isn’t even in his ballpark, he admitted earlier that if Chiatzou hadn’t saved him from Gohan’s attack he would’ve died. Being trained under an experienced instructor like Nappa, including a ten year time skip, I’m surprised Gohan hasn’t surpassed Vegeta at this point. Either way, I think Gohan, especially when enraged, will be able to match Vegeta.

But there are two facts that cannot put him above 10.000:

— Was this Gohan able to surpass his original counterpart unlocked by the Namekkian Guru? Think no.
— In any case Gohan was satisfied to battle against him, which means that in terms of power Tien for sure reached 3.000 which was not so bad. Clearly Gohan with an enraged status is much higher but not constantly.

Damian Qualshy was saying: Now everyone has Ikari? I'm not sure about giving it to Shallot, since he never uses anything of the sorts in Legends. Just goes straight to Super Saiyan.

I remember him having a rage power up during the early story of Legends. His eyes turned red and an the image of an Ozaru appeared behind him. Pretty much Ikari imo.

JetMalakai was saying: Oh, that's a bad sign. Ki spam never works, whether its distance or close up.
That’s Vegeta’s technique!

Damian Qualshy was saying: Teleported_Bread was saying: kcheeb was saying: Oh everything "would be fine" if trunk simply annihilated black while using true form back in p. 24 instead ofntoying
He tried that in DBS and failed, and the og Goku Black never used his full power or received the damage this one had. That wouldn't have worked here. And stop calling it toying and stuff, Trunks never did that here.

The OG Black was as strong as this one is, and he was ALWAYS in Rose as well. Trunks was outclassed by the Canon one while this should be a walk in the park if he for obvious reasons didn't have Rose. And yes it was "toying and stuff" because Trunks wouldn't have needed SSRage if this Black wasn't that strong (because he shouldn't be).
It wasn't toying. it couldn't be more obvious it wasn't toying.
Also Goku Black probably was this strong but never felt the need to use his full power out of arrogance and ego. He was never so wounded before, either. Trunks unleashed his full power after mastering SSJ Rage on Goku Black and failed to obliterate him. This Goku Black is probably a little weaker cause Trunks managed to push him this far and draw blood, but not weak enough for Trunks to kill him on the spot. The Kaioken closed off that chance by dangerously wounding Trunks with a boost of power to a Supreme Kai talented in battle inhabiting the body of the most talented and powerful Saiyan in history.

kcheeb was saying: Oh everything "would be fine" if trunk simply annihilated black while using true form back in p. 24 instead ofntoying
He tried that in DBS and failed, and the og Goku Black never used his full power or received the damage this one had. That wouldn't have worked here. And stop calling it toying and stuff, Trunks never did that here.

RetroOVER9000 was saying: I'm sorry, but Super Trunks really really sucks. I miss DBZ Trunks so much. He'd have actually trained and not just been outright cocky like this. I mean, what does he expect? He's going after a guy he barely beat before without the help of two people leagues above himself. Only way Trunks wins here is by Plot Armor.
did he? he rushed to fight the androids in his own timeline and got dumpstered, then cell clowned him. hes serious but hes naive and inexperienced which still makes him get over his head, not realizing whats really going on

Monster was saying: brolyhater was saying: SoyBear was saying: Rey Vegeta was saying: Piccolo trained Gohan in the original timeline and earned Gohan's respect. Nappa trained Gohan in this timeline, no wonder why Gohan respects him

Also; Piccolo trained Gohan in the original and died defending him.

Nappa Trained Nasu in this timeline and died defending him (though more unintentionally)

Gohan is really good at bringing out the best in mass murderers.

Piccolo ain't a mass murderer bro he only ever killed to defend the planet

You forget that Piccolo is Piccolo Daimo. He is a mass murderer.

He's really not. He's his son with his life essence and will imparted onto him, but Piccolo Jr is his own person, otherwise he wouldn't have turned good. He also wouldn't have accepted his defeat at the tournament at the end of Dragon Ball.

Interesting, Bulma is too Smart to just try and shoot him, she knows first hand it didn't even work against Kid Goku before he started training for real so maybe this bullet is special somehow or she actually shooting some healing bullet at Trunks (like she created artificial Senzu or something). Also my question is why hasn't she created a space ship and journey to new namek yet. She can easly create a dragon radar that will show her where the planet is and space ship is a child's play at this point. Also also worse case just go back in time borrow the dragon balls, or Dende and fix the world ????

I get wanting to differentiate Giblet, but wasnt it Zahha who gave him the coat? Makes sense he would be corrupted, he has dark ki in Legends.

King Kindred was saying: Teleported_Bread was saying: I wanna make a baseball pitch joke but I don't know what to say so I'm just gonna leave it like this.

Damian Qualshy was saying: CornBreadtm was saying: Since Trunks can learn any move he sees, similar to Tienshinhan... he knows the instant transmission right? Right?
Oh god are you talking about Mafuba? I want to forget it ever happened
Why was that a problem? Roshi learned the move once after seeing it from his master, too. It was established in Dragon Ball that seeing the Mafuba once gives you the means to learn or master it. Otherwise, it's not unheard of for someone besides Goku to be able to mimic a (usually simple) move after seeing it once, that concept just happens to be some sort of aspect for the Mafuba. I'm also sure Trunks seeing it through a smartphone recording was just a Toriyama gag, which aren't always known for being logically implemented in the story.

Yeah, I don't get why that's a problem either when that's also an inherent Saiyan trait since Goku copying the Kamehameha after seeing it once despite it taking 50 years for Roshi to create and master it.
I don't think it's an inherent Saiyan trait to copy basic moves like the Afterimage or the Kamehameha. It's just something a few people like Goku can do, who happens to be a Saiyan, due to innate talent that's usually in martial arts. These aspects of this copying capability and more also show why Goku mimicking the Hakai in the DBS manga just doesn't work, not to mention the Hakai is obviously not a simple move even putting Destruction Energy aside.

Since Trunks can learn any move he sees, similar to Tienshinhan... he knows the instant transmission right? Right?

YellNinja1600 was saying: Maybe nappa had a thing for taking care of younger generations like a bodyguard. He might have been training saiyans back before he became prince Vegeta follower.

TFS Nappa, yes. But the real Nappa is too brash and inpatient to be a mentor. He likes to flex on the weak and loses his composure when a strong opponent shows up. I don't think he has the qualities of a mentor.

But here, he is the only one suitable to train Gohan, because Vegeta thinks too highly of himself and would never spend time training a child. He would leave that task to Nappa and Raditz. But Raditz is likely too weak to train Gohan (he sweated when Gohan's power level shot up during the fight with Goku and Piccolo), so Nappa is the only option.

Damian Qualshy was saying: IchigoMait was saying: Damian Qualshy was saying: Hey, that's not a Saiyan thing.. Yamoshi just launched a Cero! What a guy!
It's like Nappa doesn't exist for you.

Also all of this:
Variations
Not my problem that he creates the sphere with his mouth. You have a problem that he is doing it slightly differently than other DB characters.

And I know very well what a Cero is, if you can see the avatar.

Damian Qualshy was saying: Hey, that's not a Saiyan thing.. Yamoshi just launched a Cero! What a guy!
It's like Nappa doesn't exist for you.

Also all of this:
Variations

N'cha Cannon - Arale Norimaki's secret weapon.
Combined N'cha Cannon - A team attack version where Arale and Obotchaman fire their N'cha Cannon in tandem.
Super N'cha Cannon - A stronger version of N'cha Cannon used by Arale, Arale 18, Towale, and EX-Fusion Tekka as one of their learnable Special Moves in Dragon Ball Fusions.
100x N'cha Cannon - A version of the N'cha Cannon mentioned by Arale in Dragon Ball Super which is apparently 100x stronger than the standard version.
Chou Makouhou - Chou Makouhou (超魔口砲 lit. "Demon's Super Mouth Gun") is the generic name for the Mouth Energy Wave in the Budokai Tenkaichi series. It is a common Blast 2 energy wave, firing in a straight line and then can clash with other similar Blast 2 attacks. Great Ape Bardock's version is called Super Rebellion Cannon (超リベリオンキャノン Chō Riberion Kyanon, lit. "Super Rebellion Gun") and is depicted as a fiery blue energy wave in Dragon Ball Heroes.
Super Dark Rebellion Cannon (超ダークリベリオンキャノン) - A dark variation of Super Rebellion Cannon used by the Great Ape Masked Saiyan in Dragon Ball Heroes.
Chou Makouhou Barrage - A rapid-fire version of Chou Makouhou.
Chou Makousen - A mouth blast that sweeps from left to right as being fired.
Super Gigantic Cannon - An Eraser Cannon in the form of a Chou Makouhou.
Great Ape Beam - A sweeping mouth blast used by Great Apes in Dragon Ball Xenoverse as a Super Skill.
Super Great Ape Beam - A ultimate skill variation where the Great Ape jumps into the air then fires a super powerful mouth blast. Used by Great Apes as an Ultimate Skill in Xenoverse.
Super Flame Cannon (超火炎砲) - A flame-based variation used by Great Apes in Dokkan Battle and Golden Great Ape Goku in World Mission where they charge up and unleash a ki-based fireball from their mouth.
Super Dark Flame Cannon (超暗黒火炎砲) - A dark variation of Super Flame Cannon used by Brainwashed Great Ape Gohan in Dragon Ball Heroes.
Giga Meteor Storm - Great Ape Bardock's Ultimate Blast in the Budokai Tenkaichi series.
Angry Launcher (アングリーランチャー) - Borgos' version.
Explosive Breath Cannon - Piccolo's rushing attack that ends with a mouth blast.
Super Demon Cannon - A variation used by Giant King Piccolo and Giant Piccolo Jr.
Super Galick Blaster - Great Ape Vegeta's variation of the Mouth Energy Wave.
Super King Blaster (超キングズブラスター) - Great Ape King Vegeta's variation.
Valiant Breath - A multi-colored version used by Xeno Cell-X in Dragon Ball Heroes and World Mission.
Energy Cannon - Dodoria's variation.
Recoome Eraser Gun - Recoome's version.
Darkness Blaster - Great Namekian Lord Slug's ultimate technique. This devastating mouth blast technique is similar to Piccolo's "Kuchikara kaikōsen" (口から怪光線 lit. "Mystery Beam From the Mouth").
Evil Quasar - Angila's version.
Break Cannon - Nappa's version.
Ill Flash - Super Buu's version
Revenge Cannon - Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks' version.
Cataclysmic Orb - Beerus' version.
Hell Gate - Janemba's version.
Crimson Scream - Luud's version.
Metal Breath - A version used by General Rilldo.
Mouth Cannon - An energy sphere version of the Mouth Energy Wave used by Great Namekians in Xenoverse 2.
Gigantic Breath - Broly's version.
Gigantic Roar - A stronger version of Gigantic Breath used by Broly.

Teleported_Bread was saying: You mean exactly what Goku Black did do? He did slash up Trunks.I mean in terms of story telling. Despite the power up, Trunks is barely scratched from the numerous "slashes". I think I see like two actual cuts on Trunks. Why wouldn't a slash attack cut through him unless trunks was massively more powerful? Visually, it feels weak and kind of a lame cop out.

It's like a tailed beast chakra arm from Naruto

Nasu doesn't need his tail on this page. It will grow back conveniently when it's needed to defeat Vegeta.

Damian Qualshy was saying: kcheeb was saying: Andy was saying: Ammar was saying: Andy was saying: This is the first time Vegeta feels out of character to me. He usually never threatens his opponents like this.
Huh?! That's literally his character in 3/4 of Z.

He is usually calm and collected before battle, even if he intimidates his enemies. He would only outburst if his opponents give him an incentive to.
Just like Goku did when he beat him up with 3x Kaioken or Perfect Cell taunting him.

He fighting long time comapanion here though

Situation similar to goku svs main vegeta

Not really because the relationship isn't there. This would be more like Vegeta vs Cui.

Cui was his personal enemy though

Nasu is not

]
kcheeb was saying: Damian Qualshy was saying: kcheeb was saying: Andy was saying: Ammar was saying: Andy was saying: This is the first time Vegeta feels out of character to me. He usually never threatens his opponents like this.
Huh?! That's literally his character in 3/4 of Z.

He is usually calm and collected before battle, even if he intimidates his enemies. He would only outburst if his opponents give him an incentive to.
Just like Goku did when he beat him up with 3x Kaioken or Perfect Cell taunting him.

He fighting long time comapanion here though

Situation similar to goku svs main vegeta

Not really because the relationship isn't there. This would be more like Vegeta vs Cui.

Cui was his personal enemy though

Nasu is not

Yeah this is crazy people are saying this is out of character for vegeta. Vegeta is pissed because he made a squad that he believed he had the potential to one day take out Frieza with but gohan completely ruined it with weakness. It is in character for him to be pissed and go on a rant his years of work are ruined and now he only has himself. He needs to vent at the whelp who ruined everything. A whelp you might be far mightier then him.

Andy was saying: Ammar was saying: Andy was saying: This is the first time Vegeta feels out of character to me. He usually never threatens his opponents like this.
Huh?! That's literally his character in 3/4 of Z.

He is usually calm and collected before battle, even if he intimidates his enemies. He would only outburst if his opponents give him an incentive to.
Just like Goku did when he beat him up with 3x Kaioken or Perfect Cell taunting him.

He fighting long time comapanion here though

Situation similar to goku svs main vegeta

Damian Qualshy was saying: Andy was saying: Damian Qualshy was saying: What the hell is Vegeta planning now? Does he WANT to become the last of the Saiyans?

Andy was saying: I wonder what some people expected here. They should be slightly stronger than in the saiyan saga so how should Gohan be able to go Super Saiyan?
Why would the power matter for him to be able to transform?

Because if emotions would be the only way, Kid Goku should have been able to go Super Saiyan against Tambourine or adult Goku against Nappa.

None of these were as bad for Goku as Namek, so it wasn't as much of an emotional trigger as you'd think.
Also, Super Saiyan wasn't conceptualized there, so there's that.
Also also, S-Cells.

I read somewhere base power of 100,000 was prerequisite for ssj

R3KT was saying: Today was saying:

Super is a bunch of callbacks repackaged as a new story and merch-friendly new "forms."

Fr though:
A being from space arrives and shows there is a whole new level of power to be reached, Frieza arrives on Earth and attacks the Z-Fighters after his men fail to do so - and threatens to blow up the planet in the process, a tournament takes place to decide the fate of the Earth, Trunks returns from the future looking for help, a new form granted to a half-Saiyan through rage while fighting the arc's main villain, a fusion is performed to try and stop a universal threat, a Father-Son Galick Gun, and even a callback to the Father-Son Kamehameha after watching Goku once again go "further beyond". Let's not forget to mention the Spirit Bomb made by gathering the energy of Goku's allies to try and defeat a big-bad, but that's pushing it ("omg he used a Kamehameha in DBZ too!").

I'm sure there's a few parts and mirrored plot points I'm sure I missed, but I think we get the gist.
You're thinking of the manga. The anime feels more original, where they feel more like homages, and doesn't have nearly as many callbacks. They feel more shameless and heavy-handed in the manga.

Stevethebarbarian was saying: I still think Sal’s version of kaioken multipliers is far superior to the original to be honest. Not everything has to be numbers and math, and neither Toriyama nor the writers of Super seem to have a clear grasp on what figures like “x50 power” or “x20 power” actually mean. Making it woobly is an improvement, and it makes sense to measure one’s use of kaioken based on what their body can take anyway. That said, Black being a god, in a body experienced with the kaioken, I’m sure his power increases very explosively with the kaioken.

This whole situation just makes me increasingly down on the plot decision here to have Trunks willingly show Black his power and let him power up. It’s total nonsense, nothing like Trunks in any way.I agree. There is a good reason why Toriyama himself removed numerical power levels after Namek. The scouters and the precise calculation of a person's strength made the story flat. It was only about whether someone could increase their number with a power-up burst. If you can calculate every outcome with math, it all quickly becomes very boring.

We no longer have statements like, “He is exactly 34 times stronger than the other.” Instead, we simply say, “He is stronger than the other.”

That's why it's a good idea to keep the exact numbers vague. This also applies to the Kaioken. And the new multiplier system introduced in DBM. The inexorable distortion seems to have adopted the DBM system. There are Kaioken Level 1, Level 2, Maximum, and Transcended. (Maybe others that I've forgotten). We easily understand what each Kaioken means in the context of the story. However, at the same time, it prevents us from using math to calculate whether someone is actually stronger with a specific Kaioken or not.

Damian Qualshy was saying: What the hell is Vegeta planning now? Does he WANT to become the last of the Saiyans?

Andy was saying: I wonder what some people expected here. They should be slightly stronger than in the saiyan saga so how should Gohan be able to go Super Saiyan?
Why would the power matter for him to be able to transform?

Because if emotions would be the only way, Kid Goku should have been able to go Super Saiyan against Tambourine or adult Goku against Nappa.

I wonder what some people expected here. They should be slightly stronger than in the saiyan saga so how should Gohan be able to go Super Saiyan?

Damian Qualshy was saying: There is no "maximum" Kaio-ken, this is just Salagir's fantasy. It's multipliers and always has been multipliers.

But hey, now the hair going straight up works at least. Nice bulky muscles too.
And I'm so happy that Trunks eyes in SS Rage are still completely white, no pupils. This is great.
"Maximum" is still a multiplier, it's just obscured so we don't have to go "oh, well, if he's now stronger than Goku and more profficient with the Kaioken, can he use a Kaioken x22? Oh man, is he gonna pull out a x23?' (Except in reality, Goku only actually started to use Kx20 in a serious setting while fighting in the ToP, and comparing that specific version of Goku to this variant of Black could be a headache... Maybe he should be using Kaioken times 17!)

DhangerShanger was saying: Damian Qualshy was saying: There is no "maximum" Kaio-ken, this is just Salagir's fantasy. It's multipliers and always has been multipliers.

But hey, now the hair going straight up works at least. Nice bulky muscles too.
And I'm so happy that Trunks eyes in SS Rage are still completely white, no pupils. This is great.
"Maximum" is still a multiplier, it's just obscured so we don't have to go "oh, well, if he's now stronger than Goku and more profficient with the Kaioken, can he use a Kaioken x22? Oh man, is he gonna pull out a x23?' (Except in reality, Goku only actually started to use Kx20 in a serious setting while fighting in the ToP, and comparing that specific version of Goku to this variant of Black could be a headache... Maybe he should be using Kaioken times 17!)
I'd say 'maximum' means the Kaioken's multiplied as high as the user can handle it.
It's also the only correct translation, if my source is proper. There is an English version of the story already.

Jolly711 was saying: If this idiots body doesn't break down within 2 chapters I'll be surprised
I can imagine being a Shinjin in soul makes the Kaioken easier for someone like Zamasu to use, who always already had a talent for combat and in ki.

The way a lot of fans feel about DBM's U16 Bra is how I feel about this inconceivably broken Gary Stu. I actually see Bra as a character beyond just her power and abilities. She had to deal with a lot with Vegito as her father.

But this fanfic version of Goku Black just doesn't make any sense to me.

Shyamcha was saying: Really hope Gohan survives in this universe…although it’s worrying that he didn’t show up with Gast in tournament. He probably would’ve been recruited.
Nah. If peace returns to Earth, he'd either become a scholar or Earth's protector, and in either of those cases he'd sit it out.

Damian Qualshy was saying: Teleported_Bread was saying: That's a sick shot

kcheeb was saying: Why ssj2 hairstyle
It isn't. It's from the flair-up of the Kaioken's aura. SSJ2 hair has less bangs, and the stand-up of the hair is more intense
Yeah but you know Goku never got that treatment in DBS, or even in DBZ filler, hence the confusion.
I'm not exactly fond of this, maybe it would work better on a different pose, for example Goku's SSJ rage on Namek when Freeza was talking about Krillin - his hair goes all the way up exactly like here. But this pose is too.. simple? At least for the hair to work like that. I don't know how to say that the pose "lacks energy", if anyone understands what I mean.
actually i take it back, he has it a few times in namek, like vs ginyu

https://s...=20220814231104

the aura doesnt match though

That's a sick shot

kcheeb was saying: Why ssj2 hairstyle
It isn't. It's from the flair-up of the Kaioken's aura. SSJ2 hair has less bangs, and the stand-up of the hair is more intense

YellNinja1600 was saying: I guess this zamasu is much smarter than orignal to go to the lengths of learning goku abilities from king Kai just from watching his fight with Hit. I guess if Gowasu wasn’t able to sense zamasu evil intent King Kai wouldn’t either.

In super nowhere it was mentioned zamasu trained with U7 king Kai, or thay goku black could use any of gokus techniques (kamehameha, kaioken)

This Manga is just pure fanfic. At least art is good...

Art 10/10
Consistency with Canon 0/10 (like trunks is character who would never hold back...)

In the anime I believe it was less zenkai and moreso him adapting to Goku's body to get the full use of his power and transformations. At least that's what Vegeta's speech as he's pummeling him implies.

I can see black overloading his body.

to my knowledge, ssjb had the "perfect ki control" needed to control kaioken, and I assume ssjR also has that.

then theres goku practicing the move, and hadn't perfected it yet, and he really messed up his body by going x10.

I assume somehow black doesn't have the muscle memory goku has, seeing as his body still gets zenkais and whatever, though that was mostly a manga thing.

So if black goes all out and goes x10, he might over do it.

Damian Qualshy was saying: CornBreadtm was saying: Damian Qualshy was saying:
I hope this isn't another thing I forgot, but was it though? ToP wasn't confirmed at that point yet. And we don't know if it even went the same. Remember, this Goku and Vegeta wouldn't go through Future Saga so there was no additional zenkais. Goku who got his body stolen was chilling on the farm with Goten, which isn't what we see him do in DBS Broly nor DBS Super Hero (which Goten and Trunks are finally taller in btw).
If it was Goku after ToP then at least it somewhat explains why Black is stronger in base than SS2 Goku, though...

It's timey whimey. Goku Black in Trunks's timeline is the Goku Black created when Beerus made Whis reverse time after he killed Gawasu. Since Beerus didn't kill Zamasu twice, once after he killed Gawasu and once before, it created a time ring and Goku Black. Technically; Goku, Beerus and whis left his universe and went to the new one with time travel. He didn't have a Goku, Beerus and Whis at that point logically.

Meaning it's a closed paradox. Goku, Whis and Beerus somehow return to his specific version of the universe created by the time ring. When Black tried to go to the original timeline and fought Goku, he was literally ejected since at that point he existed there twice since the exact same Zamasu was in U10 chilling. So time pretty much tries to correct itself.

Every timeline likely has the ToP at the same time since it was pre-planned to cull the low moral level universes. The whole Trunks saga doesn't effect the ToP since C17 just needs to win it for the good ending and that's basically a "canon event." Every timeline with the U6 tournament has the ToP most likely.
Wrong. I think..
ToP is done because of Goku, GP and Zenos (two of them, mind you) wanted to use a tournament for the purpose you mentioned, but it didn't happen because it was a cover up to see if the winner makes a selfless wish to bring them back. However, without Goku asking for ToP (and reminding Zeno about it) they were supposed to do it just like that, without a tournament. Clean start for most of the universes.

As for the time travel thingy, everything about it in the Future Saga sucks and nothing makes sense at all. Goku Black isn't from the timeline where Whis didn't rewind time, this doesn't create new timelines as far as I'm aware, but Trunks going to the past DID make the split happen. The was the sole reason anyone even went to see Zamasu and Gowasu in the first place. Without Trunks, everything goes naturally and Goku has no idea whose body he's in, before being immediately murdered. Because he never saw Zamasu and he doesn't suspect anything. AND if this was truly the timeline where Whis doesn't rewind time, why wouldn't they intervene immediately after Zamasu kills Gowasu, but instead they go back to Earth and Goku is chilling on his farm? If they disappeared from the timeline how would Zamasu switch bodies with Goku who shouldn't exist here now?
Black was thrown back into the future by the Time Ring because he took the Time Ring of said future timeline. And he took way too long being outside of it, so it took him back, I think? But that doesn't make any sense either. As I said, nothing does in this arc.

Everything you said is right except for the reason the time ring took him back. It took him back because you're not supposed to use time rings to travel to the past(most likely as a deterrent from changing the past and making new timelines) and are only meant to go to the future to observe.

But yeah. If this Goku Black is from a timeline where he decided to train(which goes against what Whis told Trunks) the reasoning behind his insane power would make sense, but only if this was stated when he was bragging in the beginning.

Damian Qualshy was saying:
I hope this isn't another thing I forgot, but was it though? ToP wasn't confirmed at that point yet. And we don't know if it even went the same. Remember, this Goku and Vegeta wouldn't go through Future Saga so there was no additional zenkais. Goku who got his body stolen was chilling on the farm with Goten, which isn't what we see him do in DBS Broly nor DBS Super Hero (which Goten and Trunks are finally taller in btw).
If it was Goku after ToP then at least it somewhat explains why Black is stronger in base than SS2 Goku, though...

It's timey whimey. Goku Black in Trunks's timeline is the Goku Black created when Beerus made Whis reverse time after he killed Gawasu. Since Beerus didn't kill Zamasu twice, once after he killed Gawasu and once before, it created a time ring and Goku Black. Technically; Goku, Beerus and whis left his universe and went to the new one with time travel. He didn't have a Goku, Beerus and Whis at that point logically.

Meaning it's a closed paradox. Goku, Whis and Beerus somehow return to his specific version of the universe created by the time ring. When Black tried to go to the original timeline and fought Goku, he was literally ejected since at that point he existed there twice since the exact same Zamasu was in U10 chilling. So time pretty much tries to correct itself.

Every timeline likely has the ToP at the same time since it was pre-planned to cull the low moral level universes. The whole Trunks saga doesn't effect the ToP since C17 just needs to win it for the good ending and that's basically a "canon event." Every timeline with the U6 tournament has the ToP most likely.

Damian Qualshy was saying: Teleported_Bread was saying: Damian Qualshy was saying: I mean it's quite a funky idea to make Zamasu train specifically under King Kai, but why?? They have their own universes. The reason why Zamasu trained with Kibito was because they're both the same rank and Supreme Kais can travel between universes. But regular Kais? Especially since in Canon we've got only one in the form of King Kai? The idea of four Kais in U7 was from a filler and then the movie. Heck, apparently only that universe also had five Supreme Kais (or it's simply another thing that Toriyama forgot).

Also, giving him Kaio-ken like that is.. Well, it really unnecessarily complicates things. Did Zamasu train with Roshi too and that's how he knows Kamehameha, or he met Yardratians and that's how he found out about Instant Transmission? Also, the "I mastered the technique without drawbacks lol".. like dude.. Just why?

Artiel was saying: papupata was saying: That's interesting that a Kaioshin would train under a mere normie Kai
Zamasu was once the North Kaio of his own universe. His planet was equally small and he had a pet pig as his attendant. I wonder if he had to do a sort of "farewell tour" with his peers before escalating to the next stage of his training. It would definitely be a good way to keep promoted Kaioshin humble.
Source??? First time I'm hearing anything of the sorts.
Yeah ditto cause the only thing i know in all that is how Zamasu was originally a Kai but his power was go great that it was decided he should be trained to become a Supreme Kai.

Shabby was saying: Trunks "beating" Fused Zamasu was already an absurd feat, I don't understand the point of making Black stronger.

But I do love the art!
Fused Zamasu was already weakening from his body falling apart, since only half of the fusion was immortal, so I think it makes sense his power would decline to Trunks's level by then. This is also after he caused it to increase in size, so it's possible that made the decay of his body worsen. The only thing that many consider problematic is how he pulled off that Spirit Sword. My best guess has always been that Goku taught or tried to teach Trunks how to do a Spirit Bomb off-screen for any number of reasons, and he wound up doing it and channeled it into his sword.
Zamasu wasn't getting weaker, no one in the show states that. Also, this didn't even happen in the Manga, it was wild over there.
Also also, there was never a time for Trunks to learn anything from Goku. BUT there is a short window where THEORETICALLY Trunks could've learnt that from King Kai himself - when Perfecter Cell shot him.
I never mentioned anyone getting weaker, just the idea that this Goku Black is simply probably a little weaker than his counterpart from Trunks's original timeline who fused with his future self.
As for Goku and Trunks, I suggested he taught him the Spirit Bomb off-screen.

Also people tend to forget that the body Zamasu took was Goku after the ToP. He had to wait a year because the balls were used for "some reason." So he could whip out Ultra Instinct. Kaioken is nothing.

Damian Qualshy was saying:
Source??? First time I'm hearing anything of the sorts.
It is the first time I heard of it too, so I looked it up. It was a panel in the manga, when Gowasu was recruiting Zamasu. He's wearing North Kai clothes, is seen on a King Kai type planet, and has a winged pig like Bubbles is a winged monkey.

https://w...pt4823aiva1.png

I like that this brought that tiny bit of lore into the story. It's still unexpected that he trained under the North Kai of another universe, but considering that Zamasu is also a North Kai and also that he can travel between universes with Gowasu, it at least isn't impossible that he'd get referred there for training.

The real question is, how is Trunks going to get out of this.

Damian Qualshy was saying: I mean it's quite a funky idea to make Zamasu train specifically under King Kai, but why?? They have their own universes. The reason why Zamasu trained with Kibito was because they're both the same rank and Supreme Kais can travel between universes. But regular Kais? Especially since in Canon we've got only one in the form of King Kai? The idea of four Kais in U7 was from a filler and then the movie. Heck, apparently only that universe also had five Supreme Kais (or it's simply another thing that Toriyama forgot).

Also, giving him Kaio-ken like that is.. Well, it really unnecessarily complicates things. Did Zamasu train with Roshi too and that's how he knows Kamehameha, or he met Yardratians and that's how he found out about Instant Transmission? Also, the "I mastered the technique without drawbacks lol".. like dude.. Just why?

Artiel was saying: papupata was saying: That's interesting that a Kaioshin would train under a mere normie Kai
Zamasu was once the North Kaio of his own universe. His planet was equally small and he had a pet pig as his attendant. I wonder if he had to do a sort of "farewell tour" with his peers before escalating to the next stage of his training. It would definitely be a good way to keep promoted Kaioshin humble.
Source??? First time I'm hearing anything of the sorts.
Yeah ditto cause the only thing i know in all that is how Zamasu was originally a Kai but his power was go great that it was decided he should be trained to become a Supreme Kai.

Shabby was saying: Trunks "beating" Fused Zamasu was already an absurd feat, I don't understand the point of making Black stronger.

But I do love the art!
Fused Zamasu was already weakening from his body falling apart, since only half of the fusion was immortal, so I think it makes sense his power would decline to Trunks's level by then. This is also after he caused it to increase in size, so it's possible that made the decay of his body worsen. The only thing that many consider problematic is how he pulled off that Spirit Sword. My best guess has always been that Goku taught or tried to teach Trunks how to do a Spirit Bomb off-screen for any number of reasons, and he wound up doing it and channeled it into his sword.

papupata was saying: That's interesting that a Kaioshin would train under a mere normie Kai
Zamasu was once the North Kaio of his own universe. His planet was equally small and he had a pet pig as his attendant. I wonder if he had to do a sort of "farewell tour" with his peers before escalating to the next stage of his training. It would definitely be a good way to keep promoted Kaioshin humble.

King Kindred was saying: ZGrssd was saying: If it is the Spirit bomb, it probably won't work.
Not a lot of life left.

I doubt Goku Black could even pull off a Spirit Bomb since he's pure evil. It'd destroy him before it'd help him.

It's definitely Kaioken, but I call cap cause that's King Kai's technique and Zamasu/Goku Black never showed signs of knowing or using it. Why is this version of Goku Black so broken? It doesn't make any sense. What is going on in the timeline Whis sent Trunks to?

Just to let you know, he's not pure evil. He's divine in his justice. He truly believes what he's doing is right. So the spirit bomb would work in theory. Evil and good are concepts based on God. The commandments are written in a divinity state, meaning mortals obtaining infected power to a god amongst mortals, stands trial to what mortals are supposed to be capable of.

Damian Qualshy was saying: Rey Vegeta was saying: Gohan/Nasu had several reasons to kill Raditz. Do not forget page 20

To be fair Raditz might be the only reason Gohan survived.

Maybe I'm looking too much into it, but there's something off about Vegeta's reaction. Like he's more shocked than angry..?

This is a Vegeta who would kill his comrades as well if they're losing badly (like Nappa). If Nasu/Gohan really wanted I bet he could pass this off as killing the weakest of their group and Vegeta would be okay.

Gohan/Nasu had several reasons to kill Raditz. Do not forget page 20

Damian Qualshy was saying: Fordo4 was saying: Is that the pose Goku once did in that art with him as an Angel with wings and halo?
Oh yeah! Now that you mention it, yes it is. Great callback.
The one from the first Legacy of Goku game on GBA that showed up when you died?

Is that the pose Goku once did in that art with him as an Angel with wings and halo?

Damian Qualshy was saying:
I never said you implied his writing is bad.
Oh.. I was under the impression you thought I was saying that Salagir's writing's bad :< No I didn't, but yeah we may have Goten ;) confused with my joke. It's just a lot of twists - Bardock's visions for instance, the battles with XXI (altho by now it's no longer surprise he one-shots opponents)

Regardless, I wouldn't be surprised if Nasu went back to Gohan. Kakarotto was conditioned to be a monster before hitting his head and becoming Goku, plus he was purebred Saiyan, a barbarian. But Gohan is a hybrid, his humane side may come up despite the years spent with his adopted 'uncles'.

Also, we had a glimpse of what it's like to be an evil version of one's self and go on planetary conquests, serving Frieza - with U13 in the main storyline, so this could be an interesting twist!

Good Lord, never claimed what I meant by Salagir-Nite (as in Carbo-nite) is 'poor' writing, just a lot of plot twists when you least expect them.

I'm baffled (and horrified) where some of the commenting people got the idea that I may have suggested Sala's writing is bad in any way from.

The situation suggests Gohan turned good back when he heard Chi-Chi, so he attacked Raditz to protect his mother and others, but the reason may be totally different and there's the twist.

I absolutely love Salagir's writing.

The question is - what is the question??

But seriously - did Nasu zero' Raditz because Gohan awoken in him, or .. was it just to punish Raditz for being Weak, akin to Vegeta sending Nappa to the next dimension.

I'm inclined to believe the former, but I dunno how much Salagir-nite is in Goten-Kun and wether he's trying to build a false sense of security here and then shell the plot with twists xDDD

jonathan_vik was saying: Wait, this is just Porunga. Wouldn't it be cooler is the Dragonballs of U1 had a special dragon?Damian Qualshy was saying: Not even a different design to show that this one is supposed to be multiversally powerful?In DBM:
Multiverse = infinite number of parallel universes.

The point is that all universes behave the same. Unless the divergence was so long ago that things could have developed completely differently.

In U1 we know that the divergence was caused by the Vargas discoveries. The discovery of multiverse travel only 1 year before the tournament could not possibly have caused U1 Porunga to look different than usual.