I'm sorry Thorn, but I find that hard to believe. Icarion (Thorn's home planet) was presented more like a fantasy world in the sense of Lord of the Rings. Just from my first impression, I had the feeling that Alcmenians don't use technology much, but gather and pass on their knowledge traditionally. But they do have spaceships, so it is fine, I guess ... But that said, I find Thorn walks a fine line between competence and plot integrity. An OC who exceeds in the areas of established canon characters? Bulma is great at tech stuff and inventions, but Thorn is even better. Naw, you have to be careful not to overshadow the canon character too much. Nobody likes Gary Stus.

To the other point. Videl is superbly involved in the plot without putting her in danger. Brilliant idea with the helmet. Hopefully we'll see more of her in the future.

obserwator was saying: That's great they didn't leave her.
I thought last time. Description of comic says it's about first SSayian God, but there are no even SSJ1 yet. We'll get a big timeskip, or comic is long? :)
I don't think Super Saiyan is a prerequisite to the Super Saiyan God ritual, it just needs 5 righteous saiyans to channel their power into another
I could be wrong there of course, if someone wants to fact check me on that. I remember they ended up transforming into Super Saiyans anyway for the ritual, although I figured that was just to channel more power into it and not an actual restriction

I really hope this isn't the end of it. I was looking forward to this match the most since it was two people who should have been close in strength and they kept hyping up Vegeta's new power only for it to end up being just SSJ3 and then he cheap shots Cell for the finish. Guess I only have myself to blame for getting excited if this really is the end.

LeonKaiba was saying: See Bra? This is what a real Saiyan does! They share the magic healing beans even if it has the chance of costing them the win and their lives!
Well so much for your honorable praising there buddy. So we got Vegeta sucker punching Cell before he gets a bean AND lying about lacking SSJ3. Honorable means Honesty.

Xizor was saying: Vegeta: "I was actually using an advanced technique there called LYING"
Ah, a Technoblade reference under a new DBM page... Noice :D

Aren't beans illegal in the arena? Shouldn't he have asked first.

So, Cell is the only one that gets zenkais here. This could be a repeat of Vegeta vs Imperfect Cell, lmao.

lmao what if he just says "I give up." Only 4 more pages of this chapter... Asura doing finale :DD

For those who dont read the FREE Dbm Manga.

Vegeta ssj2 is at ssj3 levels. As he beat his ssj3 self at ssj2 with his power going even higher then his ssj3 counter part while being just a ssj2.


Vegeta hints also that he surpassed gohan already and thats why he isnt worried about cell.

LeonKaiba was saying: None of that negates what I’ve said, just because Vegeta and Goku can’t beat Kid Buu with only SSJ2, doesn’t mean they aren’t much closer to his power at this point with said forms. Could be close enough where they could give him a great fight but lose and thus would need more to take him down, like new techniques. That ‘power chart’ was made years ago, doesn’t necessarily still apply to this day, and only you said he was the same power wise as he was years ago.
If SSJ2 can't beat a SSJ3 then it's no where close of beating Kid Buu, because SSJ3 wasn't enough to kill him too. So, actually, it does negates what you said.

LeonKaiba was saying: Also I do agree he’s written himself into a corner with a lot of what he’s said, which really sucks cause DBM is so good and to really limit himself with such things is truly a big mistake, saiyans are not meant to have limits and should always be able to make great strides in power, not reach a point where any gains they could get is minimum especially after 20 years. Not to mention if he really plans to have no plan for new transformations for the saiyans as someone said, even though that’s kinda been proven wrong with Super Saiyan great ape as that is technically a new form, then Vegeta really shouldn’t stand a chance cause he should get speed blitzed easily if his SSJ2 is still so much weaker than Mystic Gohan. If that’s the case then the fight should be boringly one sided, Vegeta’s intellect and experience meaning nothing to such difference in power like with everyone vs Bra or he’s gonna have to basically say fuck it to some of what he’s said before and retcon it all, only way for Vegeta win then.
I really hope it doesn't come to this. It worth to note that this fight was written years ago, before Goku vs Uub even.

Salagir also was asked about Vegeta's "hidden power" or what ever & he said this:

Q. Why isn't Vegeta using his overly foreshadowed new form when problems arise?

Salagir: Ahh! Why indeed. This is okay! We got this under control. (3:37:48 min)

So, form this answer, it seems that Salagir found a way for Vegeta to match Cell's power using only SSJ2.

LeonKaiba was saying: That doesn’t really prove much since it’s a SSJ3 of a saiyan that rivals him in base and the other SSJ forms, and as you pointed out, 8 years ago with it having been the last time they fought if I’m not mistaken, so bad example of trying to say a SSJ2 can never beat SSJ3.


عمار was saying: The novel? the same novel that showed that Uub can use magic to heal his arm? The same novel that stated that "Kakarotto was shock to be alive" even though he's immortal? And didn't I showed you a link to Salagir's answer about all these things? Like seriously, it was in the previous page.



Fine. I'll repeat what I wrote in the previous page. Pay attention all of you this time.

Base Goku's today can't beat Freeza without SSJ:

He talked about it in one of his Twitch streams, he was asked if base Raditz could beat Freeza & he said no. He explained to reach Freeza's level, you must have SSJ. Here's the timestamp of when he answered the question: link

Vegeta's SSJ2 is the same power 20 years ago & A lower level super Saiyan transformation can't beat any higher level transformation

This is Salagir's comment from page 278



And Salagir were asked about if Goku & Vegeta colud beat Kid Buu using only SSJ2:

Q. Does Vegeta(u18) and Goku (u18) capable to defeat Kid Buu only using SS2?

Salagir: No. (3:20:34 min)

Look, I don't agree with this. I think Salagir wrote himself into a corner when he stated these conditions & rules. Because for what I see, there's no way for Vegeta to win without Salagir going against his rules.

Korota was saying: Yeesh, that seems really flawed. Shouldn't he have the system be based off base power? Given all that Super Saiyan really is, is a multiplier.
Not to Salagir. To him SSJ is...well, a transformation. A "cheat" way for the saiyans to reach Gods-levels of power. It's his way of putting limits of how much power a saiyan (or a human) can reach. The for a saiyan to grow stronger is to unlock SSJ, then SSJ2 & finally SSJ3, which is apparently the limit of how much a saiyan can go. For humans, to get stronger, they've to use kaioken I guess.

Shabby was saying: I think this idea is based on it being said that DBM base form Goku could not beat final form Frieza which also means that Buu Saga Base form Goku couldn't beat Frieza-saga SS1 Goku, although in true canon he very very likely could but power levels are too inconsistent to say for certain.

So, theoretically, when SS2 Goku was sparring with SS2 Vegeta in the HTBC, only Vegeta was getting stronger, as Goku had already unlocked SS3.

The problem with that theory is that that locks Goku to SS3's limitations unless he's unlocked something new--which isn't likely.
It's not that he "got stronger" as much as he only got the upper hand this time. Also, you remined me of something:



This fight happened in year 786, which is 12 years after Buu's death & 8 years before the Multiverse tournament. Some may think that Vegeta improved in 12 years & yet...



He's still a lot weaker than SSJ3.

SSJ2Videl was saying: The fact that Vegeta's able to keep up with a Mystic Gohan-tier Perfect-er Cell without immediately getting swatted away puts into perspective how much stronger Vegeta (and by extension, Goku) have gotten in base since the Buu saga.

I think Vegeta's powerup has been foreshadowed already by the chapter title (The Return of Super Vegeta VS Cell or something like that) and it's just some sort of SSJ2 Grade 2/3. I'd much rather it be that then Mystic Vegeta, because the SSJ forms in DBM have a lot more nuance and dynamics to them compared to Ultimate, which is just kind of never explained.

Also I'm not the only one who thinks that Cell looks a bit funky in the 2nd and 4th panels, right? He looks great in the 6th, though. SSJ2 Vegeta looks awesome in the new author's style.

Though yes, Vegeta is still most certainly at a disadvantage here until we see something concrete to show where he stands relative everyone else. Assuming that Cell is now Super Buu+ level, it's not too hard to imagine that Vegeta got to (or maybe even exceeded) that level of strength in the 20 years between the Buu saga and DBM.
...For the last time: In DBM, there's no such thing to increase your base power after a saiyan unlock SSJ. A SSJ can never beat a SSJ2, & SSJ2 can't never beat SSJ3. Vegeta in SSJ2 is at the same power from 20 years ago. And Cell is holding back..... But I'm certain that Vegeta (somehow) is going to win. I just don't know how.

عمار was saying: BobCros was saying: Do people forget that Vegeta Super Sayain 2 isn't the level it was at the Buu sage??
He's stronger and apparently has something up his sleeve it gets annoying people saying he's weaker than Gohan cause of transformation If the person trains the normal means of power for each transformation goes up ... Someone who Mastered Super Sayain 2 can beat someone who is Just a Super Sayain 3
...I feel like I'm repeating myself:

عمار was saying: There you go:



This comment is on page 278.

And also, Salagir were asked about if Goku & Vegeta colud beat Kid Buu using only SSJ2:

Q. Does Vegeta(u18) and Goku (u18) capable to defeat Kid Buu only using SS2

Salagir: No. (3:20:34 min)

I feel like such an old comment wouldn't neccesarily hold up today, Goku was overpowering Kid Buu in ssj3 during the Buu Saga but still lost because of Kid Buu's immense stamina, that doesn't mean they aren't around him power-wise also.

But either way, Vegeta will NOT be able to put down Cell using ONLY super saiyan 2, unless he has come up with a technique that negates his regeneration.
Let's say, Vegeta is a little bit weaker than ssj3 Goku during the buu saga he is still quite a bit weaker than Mystic Gohan...

Here's my powerscale for the Buu Saga.

ssj1 gotenks = ssj3 goku (goku didn't know he could use ssj3, and anticipated he could beat fat buu with just super saiyan)

ssj3 gotenks is 8x stronger than ssj3 goku, and he is relative in power to mystic gohan and super buu himself w/o absorbing anyone.

During the fights of the tournament involving Gotenks, he has been mentioned to be stronger than he was as a kid due to having an adult body. But only during his fight against Buu when he got double the power from before is he explicitly stated by Goku to have surpassed him and Vegeta.

We will not be able to know unless it is stated how much stronger they have got, but let's say ssj2 vegeta is relative to kid buu in terms of raw strength he's still ~8x weaker than mystic gohan.

If ssj3 goku is around 4x stronger than vegeta here, he's still only half as strong as mystic gohan is. (which is more than enough to beat kid buu and a pretty major increase in strength compared to him in the buu saga, he'd probably be able to beat super buu with his final explosion if current Goku was fighting buu in the U4 special)

Considering how in dragon ball, techniques can amplify one's strength several times over I think Vegeta will be able to fight Cell in super saiyan 2 for a short period of time but Cell will actively hold back to get Vegeta to draw out his "full power."

Dante was saying: Super Gojita 3 was saying: Dante was saying: عمار was saying:
...It seems you're new here, Dante. One of DBM "rules": a saiyan could never beat Freeza without SSJ. Goku's today can't beat Freeza without SSJ. So, no matter what: A SSJ2 will always be weaker than a SSJ3



I have one thing to say to that rule: Bejitto.
If you think that "fusions and off springs of fusions are exceptions", Mystic Gohan.

P.S. I'd like to see that rule, please. Also, i've been here since Bejitto stopped Bra from demolishing Bojack after killing Pan, around page 130, so I'm not new here.
P.P.S. If you say that "ssj2 in the same person is weaker than ssj3 in the same person" , then obviously yes.
Otherwise, SSJ Bejitto > SSJ3 Goku. I just want to clarify that because if in your original statement "ssj2 is nothing to ssj3" (paraphrasing) you meant in the same person, then i agree. If you say ssj2 X is weaker than SSJ3 Y, then see my above statement. SSJ Bejitto vs SSJ3 Goku.

And with this i think we're done :D we both are right, depending on what you referred to originally.

so we would have to dig for the answer, but salagir did cite the typical ssj1 would never surpass a ssj2 with the exception of fusions.

basically, ssj2 is 10x greater than ssj1 in dbm and the x2 increase is not used in dbm that was cited in the guide books.

basically goku and vegetas base forms had nearly maxed out and will never be 10x greater than the other. they can still get stronger, but lets say gokus at 1000 and he trains he can become 1001. but he'll never reach 10,000.

goku in the buu saga for example was stronger than his cell saga self, but he wasn't much stronger than gohan. he did surpass cell saga gohan, but it wasn't a huge jump from that and it took 7 years with masters in other world training him and a ghost body.

so this formula works for all full blooded saiyans and half saiyans like gohan. cell dousn't count as he's not really a normal creature. saiyans can't breed with nameks, or the freeza race for example.

then theres fusions who would be beyond that 10,000 mark and then some.

if anyone has access to that comment by salagir that'd be great.

So you wanna say SSJ Goku end of Buu saga is weaker than SSJ2 Gohan Cell saga? Because i still believe:

If goku PL = 10 Cell saga
If goku PL = 100 Buu saga
you multiply that by 50 for SSJ those are two different people.
But yeah, i understand now why people say we should take these conversations to the forum or something like that, we cannot get anywhere as PL lost value after freeza saga and nothing matters anymore. I just want you to know that i believe PL never reaches the top, or that there is no top. Goku can become in base form as strong as he was SSJ Freeza Saga, or maybe even more if he lives to 100/150.
Now if there is a law that says that SSJ can never beat Freeza and characters have tops in DBM, then alrighty, we abide by it <3
Finally i found some people who can carry out a casual decent debate without going monke (at least without a moon). Thanks guys!

goku improved sure, but it might not be 10x from then and with salagirs cap on strength goku hasn't doubled his power since the buu saga. it'd be more like goku was a 6 and now hes a 10 in the buu saga, and has ssj2 and 3.

so with dbs and gt using crazy escalating power levels it sounds crazy to think a ssj1 can't ever overcome a ssj2, but thats how it is in dbm.

the buu saga was where goku mostly peaked, with modest improvement since then. so at that point a ssj1 can't overcome a ssj2 (outside of fusions).

then theres also power ups outside of simple multipliers.

I believe sal also said ssj is a power up that increases ones power to eclipse freeza on namek regardless of base strength.

so bardock with 10k base power going ssj would stomp freezas 4th form at 100% as ridiculous as that sounds, but he wouldn't be able to go ssj without magic or some shit most likely.

I forget where he said that part but hey...




foo was saying: Dante was saying: عمار was saying:
...It seems you're new here, Dante. One of DBM "rules": a saiyan could never beat Freeza without SSJ. Goku's today can't beat Freeza without SSJ. So, no matter what: A SSJ2 will always be weaker than a SSJ3



I have one thing to say to that rule: Bejitto.
If you think that "fusions and off springs of fusions are exceptions", Mystic Gohan.

P.S. I'd like to see that rule, please. Also, i've been here since Bejitto stopped Bra from demolishing Bojack after killing Pan, around page 130, so I'm not new here.
P.P.S. If you say that "ssj2 in the same person is weaker than ssj3 in the same person" , then obviously yes.
Otherwise, SSJ Bejitto > SSJ3 Goku. I just want to clarify that because if in your original statement "ssj2 is nothing to ssj3" (paraphrasing) you meant in the same person, then i agree. If you say ssj2 X is weaker than SSJ3 Y, then see my above statement. SSJ Bejitto vs SSJ3 Goku.

And with this i think we're done :D we both are right, depending on what you referred to originally.
This is one of the quotes where it is explained.

"Trunks does not even have to transform to beat him.
I like to think SSJ are so powerful power-ups that mere training can't reach them. For this reason too I think humans can't go to SSJ levels.
For example, Goku with 20x Kaiohken was weaker than 50% Freeza. SSJ Goku is stronger than 100% Freeza. That tells me SSJ is some 50x Kaiohken, without the problems (like, destroying your body ^^). That's big.
I also think that SSJ1 can't be stronger than SSJ2. If you're that strong, you go SSJ2 (kinda). This of course does not count for fusions.
To conclude, I think our Saiyans friends need to get SSJ for any fight that is above Freeza's level.
For this reason I hate most of Toei's film showing the heroes waiting a lot to turn SSJ, and then just being a little stronger.
All this is only my opinion."

Salagir also says don't trust my old quotes but I wouldn't think this was something that he would have changed his mind on. The reason for that is because the goku vs freeza in dbm more or less proves this to be the case. U18 goku, along with vegeta are likely the strongest of all non-fusion saiyans at their base form and yet goku immediately went super to fight freeza. What rational reason could there be for him to do so if he could possibly beat him in his base? It's hard to think of anything more out of character for him to do.

thanks for the quote!

"Is that supposed to scare me?"

Considering Gohan can kill you with a single hit, yes, it should.

Anyway, what's the deal with the senzu, a bad translation? why would Vegeta hide a senzu?