DB Multiverse
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bralin11
13 Decembro 2020
Zefarg was saying:
I am starting to develop a theory for how the story will continue and how we'll get to the point of Vegito holding Gohan and threathening everyone... They will be observing the situation and what's left for 1-2 more pages and try to piece things together, then Bra herself will propably tell Vegito what she has done and accept that she is going to have to be killed, Vegito will get furious and will try to kill her, as he has promised, plus he kinda has to. But Goku and mainly Vegeta and maybe some of the others will object and demand a better, more detailed explanation, plus they forgave Majin Vegeta in like 2 minutes, so they will propably not even be that mad at Bra and certainly won't wish for her to be killed. After the objection is raised, Vegito gets even more mad and loses it and Goku and Vegeta will throw hands with him :)
I can see this happening.
bralin11
18 Outubro 2020
PinkFloyd0729 was saying:
I know this is hard for the power level nerds to understand, but Bra's overwhelming strength is not being presented as a positive trait and it never has been. She has always been presented as a character who is burdened by the power that she was born with.
It makes me think of the 12 Labours of Heracles. At the start of that story, Heracles becomes drunk and without meaning to, kills his family. But Bra hasn't had the luxury of simple labour to redeem herself, in this moment instead of reaching out to his clearly troubled child, Vegetto just states "Do this again and I'll kill you."
As a parent, Vegetto combines the worst aspects of Goku and Vegeta. He's aloof and detached like Goku, but violent and irrational like Vegeta.
It's no small wonder that Bra turned out the way she did when the only yardstick to compare herself to was an ego maniac with no peer in the universe. And the only way she could ever hope to get his attention is to have a worthwhile power level.
I almost wish that we got to see Battle of Gods as it would take place in this universe. With Beerus giving both Vegetto and Bra a nice big slice of humble pie.
It makes me think of the 12 Labours of Heracles. At the start of that story, Heracles becomes drunk and without meaning to, kills his family. But Bra hasn't had the luxury of simple labour to redeem herself, in this moment instead of reaching out to his clearly troubled child, Vegetto just states "Do this again and I'll kill you."
As a parent, Vegetto combines the worst aspects of Goku and Vegeta. He's aloof and detached like Goku, but violent and irrational like Vegeta.
It's no small wonder that Bra turned out the way she did when the only yardstick to compare herself to was an ego maniac with no peer in the universe. And the only way she could ever hope to get his attention is to have a worthwhile power level.
I almost wish that we got to see Battle of Gods as it would take place in this universe. With Beerus giving both Vegetto and Bra a nice big slice of humble pie.
From what I can gather from the Beerus scene in the Tournament, I think work on Dragon Ball Multiverse started before Battle of Gods was ever released. I do agree, there should definitely be something like this in the future. How would Beerus and Whis react to U16 basically considering Vegito a divine being in and of himself?
I just can't get over that bit. I'm sure it was originally intended as a joke but let's seriously think about the psychological impact of "my dad is an invincible, indestructible being of absolute power who I have witnessed with my own eyes to be capable of causing an entire active warzone and every participating, bloodthirsty warrior in said warzone to fall to their hands and knees to beg him for mercy. I indirectly killed a solar system by making its star go supernova. My dad could probably blow up a sizeable chunk of the galaxy, maybe even the whole thing, without any middleman whatsoever."
Also, your comment is beautiful, you seem to have a great understanding of both Bra and Vegito. While I am definitely of the opinion that if Vegito hadn't stepped in, Bra might've been too lost in her own frenzy to notice the supernova (let's just guesstimate and say the planet is of a similar distance from the sun as earth so eight minutes till impact I believe), I completely agree with the rest of your evaluation as this experience was obviously traumatic for her.
By the way, always nice to see a connection to ancient mythology. Never would have thought to compare Bra to the ancient Greeks but suddenly I'm seeing a lot of similarities. If I remember correctly, Achilles was a reckless little jerk who had problems with authority and Bellerophon thought he could challenge the gods and never stopped to think that they might have a problem with that.
Speaking of which, Vegito and Bra in these past few panels have really been getting the "stand before God on Judgment Day" feel, no? It reminds me of a quote from tumblr, "one day you will face your creator and you will have to justify all of the oxygen you have wasted." That's definitely the vibe I was getting here. 1 Replie(s)
bralin11
18 Outubro 2020
Some thoughts I had today.
I'm calling it now, when the tournament starts wrapping up, everyone is going to start arguing.
Bra is going to start realizing how horrible of a person she's been (she's going to realize she killed Gohan, quite literally the only person who actually raised her properly and formed a healthy connection with her) so that's going to really give her a reality check.
Babidi's fricken dead so eventually Vegito is going to make his way back to the arena and he is going to Flip. Out. Everything he has been saying about Bra being a danger has finally come true. The firstborn son who not only saved the world but indirectly led to his father's birth (try swallowing that pill) is in two seperate halves. Thousands of innocent bystanders have been slaughtered. And to top it all off, the Tournament is basically cancelled since the Vargas were butchered and the arena is falling apart.
The final battle is going to be everyone versus Vegito (this was foreshadowed by Bardock) and U16 Bra is going be a hero for once in her life and I'm calling it now, everyone is going to hate her for it because no one thought that maybe she was supposed to be a Mary Sue the whole time.
Bra is irresponsible, does not think about the consequences of her actions, rash, and arrogant. The reason I'm stating the obvious is because I grew up with a mom who was mentally ill who was irresponsible, did not think about the consequences of her actions, rash, and arrogant. She also had a mean streak. I lived with my mom until I moved to college at 19. Today, I am proud to say I have a fantastic relationship with her because she has opened up to me and gone through the effort to better herself on top of raising me.
My mom was a follower of Alcoholics Anonymous, and the first step of that is "Admitting you have a problem." And it's ckear to us, the audience, that she does not take that step until U18 Bra pushes her over the edge. By that time, of course, it is far too late. Not only for the comic, but I feel also, for us as the readers.
From what I can tell, most of us don't like Bra. I get that, she is a very iwannasmackemintheface-able character. But I think that is the point. She is supposed to be frustrating because she's supposed to be real. How would a real person act if they were born with unimaginable power? I very much doubt it would be all fighting crime and saving cats from trees.
Obe thing my mom said to me stands out. Due to certain traumatic experiences, it is exceedingly difficult for her to "grow up" or mature as a person. Basically, at the time of the trauma, her brain ceased maturing in the sense of determining things like the consequences of her actions, responsibilities, societal norms, and even right from wrong. She could still have a vague understanding of these things but she could never truly internalize them unless a major effort was made, most often through psychological therapy and time spent at home.
All of this can definitely be seen here with Bra. While Vegito is absolutely in the right with his actions here, he still in some way traumatizes Bra, likely through the very real possibility that he is fully capable of killing her at any given moment. Vegito has a reputation of being invincible and is looked up to as a divine being throughout U16. Bra is fully aware of this reputation and how little of it is fiction. I've given the active warzone example a few times and while that might seem comedic at first, after this, Bra might look back on that moment with abject horror. Most every child has seen their parent get angry with them, however I don't think any child can liken a moment when their parent got angry with them to facing the wrath of God and not have it be hyperbole. While Vegito was in the right to do what he did, negative consequences were achieved. This is a very real scenario that many people, including parents whose anger most certainly cannot be compared to the Old Testament God with frightening levels of accuracy, go through everyday. Even something as simple as ignoring a child when they believe they have important information to share can have serious negative impacts on their growth; and people wonder why phones are so important being pocketsized supercomputers full of information.
The end all be all of all this is this. Bra is not meant to be forgiven right away. Whether she is by the characters within the story is one thing, but whether she is by the audience is another. This is a nice change of pace too. One of the biggest issues of the Dragon Ball series are the Dragon Balls and their ability to whoosh any problem away. But with Bra and the scenario that everyone is in currently, Salagir is forcing us, the audience, to ask ourselves whether or not we can truly forgive genocidal monsters as we have in the past with Vegeta, Buu, and now even Cell who decided to join forces with the good guys; keypoint: before Majin Bra was revealed, so not only had Cell grown at least in part out of his overconfidence, but was now legitimately working alongside others for a common goal. It was likely for his own desires (maybe just the Dragon Balls but maybe too the hope that the tournament would continue if they saved everyone), but he still knew when to stop being outwardly selfish and play ball with everyone else. The question Salagir is asking us is whether or not that makes up for all the people he's killed.
By continually presenting a character as a good guy while simultaneously showing us how they are not, Bra is almost a direct call out to every time the Dragon Balls were relied upon to fix a problem the heroes could not solve themselves. It's tragic how despite everyone calling her a Mary Sue, and very much being one though that's literally the point of her character, she needs the Dragon Balls or really any kind of support more than anyone. Bra is incredibly weak of mind if we compare her Majin form to that of Vegeta's, who wanted Babidi to take control of his mind and still broke free from it. Meanwhile Bra kills the closest person she had to a genuine friend like it's nothing as well as several of her other friends and family, only escaping when she's called out on how actually pathetic she is. Keyword being "actually," because while Bra might be a Mary Sue on the outside, on the inside, she's the kind of pathetic that even Frieza would find too worthless to laugh at.
I think that's why I adore her character so much. She's just so easy to pity if you look at it from the perspective of an adult who never grew up given way too much responsibility than she knows how to handle and being expected to do the "adult" thing and deal with it with the consequence for failure being death. Imagine if a country's only line of defense were nuclear armaments and that their supreme ruler was a child who would be brutally murdered if the country were to ever fall into another nation's hands. Now imagine it is the cold war and everyone is trying to pull that child in their direction to make a quick, easy, and most importantly, profitable ally.
That is Bra. The psycho. The Mary Sue. The child.
DB Multiverse page 1796
I'm calling it now, when the tournament starts wrapping up, everyone is going to start arguing.
Bra is going to start realizing how horrible of a person she's been (she's going to realize she killed Gohan, quite literally the only person who actually raised her properly and formed a healthy connection with her) so that's going to really give her a reality check.
Babidi's fricken dead so eventually Vegito is going to make his way back to the arena and he is going to Flip. Out. Everything he has been saying about Bra being a danger has finally come true. The firstborn son who not only saved the world but indirectly led to his father's birth (try swallowing that pill) is in two seperate halves. Thousands of innocent bystanders have been slaughtered. And to top it all off, the Tournament is basically cancelled since the Vargas were butchered and the arena is falling apart.
The final battle is going to be everyone versus Vegito (this was foreshadowed by Bardock) and U16 Bra is going be a hero for once in her life and I'm calling it now, everyone is going to hate her for it because no one thought that maybe she was supposed to be a Mary Sue the whole time.
Bra is irresponsible, does not think about the consequences of her actions, rash, and arrogant. The reason I'm stating the obvious is because I grew up with a mom who was mentally ill who was irresponsible, did not think about the consequences of her actions, rash, and arrogant. She also had a mean streak. I lived with my mom until I moved to college at 19. Today, I am proud to say I have a fantastic relationship with her because she has opened up to me and gone through the effort to better herself on top of raising me.
My mom was a follower of Alcoholics Anonymous, and the first step of that is "Admitting you have a problem." And it's ckear to us, the audience, that she does not take that step until U18 Bra pushes her over the edge. By that time, of course, it is far too late. Not only for the comic, but I feel also, for us as the readers.
From what I can tell, most of us don't like Bra. I get that, she is a very iwannasmackemintheface-able character. But I think that is the point. She is supposed to be frustrating because she's supposed to be real. How would a real person act if they were born with unimaginable power? I very much doubt it would be all fighting crime and saving cats from trees.
Obe thing my mom said to me stands out. Due to certain traumatic experiences, it is exceedingly difficult for her to "grow up" or mature as a person. Basically, at the time of the trauma, her brain ceased maturing in the sense of determining things like the consequences of her actions, responsibilities, societal norms, and even right from wrong. She could still have a vague understanding of these things but she could never truly internalize them unless a major effort was made, most often through psychological therapy and time spent at home.
All of this can definitely be seen here with Bra. While Vegito is absolutely in the right with his actions here, he still in some way traumatizes Bra, likely through the very real possibility that he is fully capable of killing her at any given moment. Vegito has a reputation of being invincible and is looked up to as a divine being throughout U16. Bra is fully aware of this reputation and how little of it is fiction. I've given the active warzone example a few times and while that might seem comedic at first, after this, Bra might look back on that moment with abject horror. Most every child has seen their parent get angry with them, however I don't think any child can liken a moment when their parent got angry with them to facing the wrath of God and not have it be hyperbole. While Vegito was in the right to do what he did, negative consequences were achieved. This is a very real scenario that many people, including parents whose anger most certainly cannot be compared to the Old Testament God with frightening levels of accuracy, go through everyday. Even something as simple as ignoring a child when they believe they have important information to share can have serious negative impacts on their growth; and people wonder why phones are so important being pocketsized supercomputers full of information.
The end all be all of all this is this. Bra is not meant to be forgiven right away. Whether she is by the characters within the story is one thing, but whether she is by the audience is another. This is a nice change of pace too. One of the biggest issues of the Dragon Ball series are the Dragon Balls and their ability to whoosh any problem away. But with Bra and the scenario that everyone is in currently, Salagir is forcing us, the audience, to ask ourselves whether or not we can truly forgive genocidal monsters as we have in the past with Vegeta, Buu, and now even Cell who decided to join forces with the good guys; keypoint: before Majin Bra was revealed, so not only had Cell grown at least in part out of his overconfidence, but was now legitimately working alongside others for a common goal. It was likely for his own desires (maybe just the Dragon Balls but maybe too the hope that the tournament would continue if they saved everyone), but he still knew when to stop being outwardly selfish and play ball with everyone else. The question Salagir is asking us is whether or not that makes up for all the people he's killed.
By continually presenting a character as a good guy while simultaneously showing us how they are not, Bra is almost a direct call out to every time the Dragon Balls were relied upon to fix a problem the heroes could not solve themselves. It's tragic how despite everyone calling her a Mary Sue, and very much being one though that's literally the point of her character, she needs the Dragon Balls or really any kind of support more than anyone. Bra is incredibly weak of mind if we compare her Majin form to that of Vegeta's, who wanted Babidi to take control of his mind and still broke free from it. Meanwhile Bra kills the closest person she had to a genuine friend like it's nothing as well as several of her other friends and family, only escaping when she's called out on how actually pathetic she is. Keyword being "actually," because while Bra might be a Mary Sue on the outside, on the inside, she's the kind of pathetic that even Frieza would find too worthless to laugh at.
I think that's why I adore her character so much. She's just so easy to pity if you look at it from the perspective of an adult who never grew up given way too much responsibility than she knows how to handle and being expected to do the "adult" thing and deal with it with the consequence for failure being death. Imagine if a country's only line of defense were nuclear armaments and that their supreme ruler was a child who would be brutally murdered if the country were to ever fall into another nation's hands. Now imagine it is the cold war and everyone is trying to pull that child in their direction to make a quick, easy, and most importantly, profitable ally.
That is Bra. The psycho. The Mary Sue. The child.
bralin11
17 Outubro 2020
Turbocharger was saying:
Ashanark was saying: I don't know about you, but when I was raised, if I made a mess, my parents expected me to clean it up. Were they to clean up my messes for me, I would not be as motivated to not make them. The consequence of "Oh, now I can't have fun, because I was too careless and now I have to fix it" taught me to not make messes. If I chose to sass off my mom interrupting her busy schedule to pick me up from school, then I had to accept the consequence of walking home myself.
This is Dragon Ball. Bra just did a very bad thing much worse than any child her age would be capable of in real life, but there is also a way of fixing it that doesn't exist in real life. I find Vegito 100% in the right here; if he's at all at fault, it's allow Bra to train and become stronger (an act of stupidity necessitated by this scene being a retcon.) Note that Bra is crying here not because she killed billions (or at least, her brother), but because she is now facing consequences herself. The story is asking us to have pity for someone who feels none herself. That...doesn't work.
@XisBlack
Just want you to know, your last post last page was great. In particular:
XisBack was saying: if she didn't start as a Mary Sue, if she hadn't already tons of screen time and if she had only some medium control issues (like it seemed when she faced Buu in the space), I would have no problem with a short developing arc. A chapter or so. Not something very original anyway, but it would have been okay-ish
BUT she was already incredibly annoying (as character, at meta levels) chapters ago and had already too much screen time by that point. Moreover whatever development now would feel rushed and forced.
She has literally no meta-purpose in the story: she can't be an aesop (you can be a psycopath, you are alive only because the one who could kill you was your own dad and you can still end up as a heroine! cheeers!); we know everything about her already and there is no mistery to undercover; she is written for 90% of the time to look like a Mary Sue and for the remaining 10% of the time to be a hate sink and very few will like her or feel invested in her story and her development; I (and I suppose I am in the majority, for once) won't ever be able to root for her in a fight, because she lacks the heroic qualities needed to cover that role and, on the other hand, she is not scaring and cool enough to be a proper villain.This. This this this. Bra already failed as a hero; Majin Bra showed she fails as a villain (because people came to realize many of her wins only came through enormous Idiot Balls on the part of the heroes.) She's not a compelling anti-hero and, as you said, she teaches no sensible Aesop. At this point I think the best option is to just get her out of the story as fast as possible, and get back to Goku and Vegeta.
@Turbocharger
Turbocharger was saying: It doesn't have to be a sympathetic moment. It could just be here being a brat and getting salty about how her father scolded her. This whole sequence has been completely presented in Vegito's favor. If it wasn't, Bra would have been a lot more remorseful.Turbocharger. Ol' buddy ol' pal. You're a reasonable person and I always enjoy reading your posts. In this case, however, I just gotta disagree with you.
Over the last few pages, Vegito consistently has been given murder-lighting on his face; Bra has repeatedly had no shading on her face (even though she logically should, if the same light is hitting her which is hitting Vegito) because this makes her look more innocent. Vegito has repeatedly had his height emphasized, while Bra has been shown as small. And in this latest page, Bra is deliberately framed as looking tiny and alone in that last panel.
Even ignoring all that, the story doesn't end with Vegito, but with Bra. In an argument, why do people always try to get the last word? Because we instinctively feel the person who gets the last word "won". It certainly comes off this way in books and films; a character who speaks last comes off as more justified or powerful. Even if Vegito is in the right here (and I believe he is), he doesn't get the "last word" to the reader: Bra does. Her, in tears, is the final image we see.
If we aren't supposed to see Bra as sympathetic from all this, the writing has failed, because those elements I've mentioned are things we humans--either instinctively, or through conditioning--tend to see as sympathetic. And if we are supposed to see Bra as sympathetic, the writing has similarly failed--because why should the grief of Bra, having to clear her mess, totally absolve her of not showing any remorse she just killed billions, including her brother?
Something is very, very wrong here, and considering the sheer amount of focus and screentime Bra has gotten the past few years, I can only assume somebody in DBM's production is utterly infatuated with Bra.
I admit that I don't have a counterargument for your "last word" argument, so I agree with you on that front. Maybe there should have been a final picture of Vegito frowning and saying that he did what he had to do.
However, I don't think the lighting necessarily means Vegito is the villain of this segment. Admittedly, that was the conclusion that I jumped into when I first saw the flashback, but Dragon Ball has done this before.
Heroes can still look scary. It doesn't mean their not the good guys, but good guys can definitely be intimidating when pushed to a certain point. And considering that Vegito seems to be a Well Intentioned Extremist in this special, his morality is arguably gray. Morally Gray characters have a lot of freedom in terms of how they can be portrayed, because they are portrayed in defiance of typical black and white conflicts.
But ignoring Vegito's personality, Dragon Ball heroes have still been presented in an ominous way before. When Goku went Super Saiyan against Frieza, it wasn't portrayed as a triumphant, heroic badass moment like his Super Saiyan 3 transformation when confronting Babidi and Fat Buu. Goku was portrayed in a dark, scary, borderline Ax Crazy manner. Out of context, Goku might seem like a bad guy. But in context, Frieza has injured Piccolo, blown up Krillin, and is getting ready to add Gohan to his body count. Goku's rage stems from how pissed off he is at Frieza, and how determined he is to stop Frieza from doing anymore bad things.
In this scene, the context is different, but the fundamental message is the same. Bra does something bad, shows very little/no remorse, and Vegito lays down the law because he is pissed at her for what happened. Much like Goku against Frieza, Vegito is pretty darn scary here, but he's earned the right to be given what his daughter just got done doing to the Solar System.
And in general, Vegito's ominous portrayal adds to the impact. He is an incredibly powerful character. Sympathetic or not, he IS intimidating. A big part of why I love these past few pages so much is that they perfectly convey the terror that a character as powerful as Vegito can inflict just by being present. If Vegito didn't have those ominous dark drawings, he'd look more heroic, but it would take away from the badass aura that he exhibits with his power and capabilities.
Bra is a bit more difficult to justify. I'm assuming she is meant to be SOMEWHAT sympathetic. But that is a very key word here. "Somewhat" doesn't suddenly mean that she's the victim. At best, she's pitiful.
The only reason Bra is remotely sympathetic in this scene is because she can't control herself. Partially her fault, partially not. But she's still not completely sympathetic.
Bra's vulnerable portrayal makes her seem like the victim out of context. But I think it could also be interpreted as irony.
When Bra was about to destroy everything, the people on the planet were portrayed as, if I recall correctly, terrified, confused, and helpless.
How is Bra portrayed in the past few pages, especially this one? Terrified, confused, and helpless. A lot of the people she just killed probably felt the same way that she does right now.
The tables have been flipped on her. Bra think she's hot stuff. But compared to Vegito, she's not. She was mad that her enemies weren't interested in her, only fixated on Vegito. She wanted to prove them wrong. But Vegito just proved her wrong.
After all of that power hungry gloating about being strong, and wanting to be the strongest, Vegito has knocked Bra out of Super Saiyan 2, the very form that granted her this power, with a single hit, and is now showing her what it is like to be vunerable. Just like the people that she just massacred in her temper tantrum.
Is it the biggest commeupance that Bra could have got? No, but it is the most ironic one by a Snake Way mile and then some for sure and such. Bra doesn't understand why Vegito is mad at her, but how does she think the people she just killed felt?
I stated this in the last page before, but I think Bra's biggest issue is her inability to comprehend the consequences of her flaws as a character. Her confusion stems from this. She doesn't realize that she has to take personal responsibility for her power. So she is scared and confused. It's dramatic irony, because the story shows that Vegito had a very good reason to threaten her.
The point is, being menacing and being villainous don't go hand in hand in certain situations. Neither does being vunerable and being sympathetic.
Is Vegito correct to be mad? Yes, but he's still menacing.
Is Bra sympathetic? Not really, but she's still vunerable.
This is Dragon Ball. Bra just did a very bad thing much worse than any child her age would be capable of in real life, but there is also a way of fixing it that doesn't exist in real life. I find Vegito 100% in the right here; if he's at all at fault, it's allow Bra to train and become stronger (an act of stupidity necessitated by this scene being a retcon.) Note that Bra is crying here not because she killed billions (or at least, her brother), but because she is now facing consequences herself. The story is asking us to have pity for someone who feels none herself. That...doesn't work.
@XisBlack
Just want you to know, your last post last page was great. In particular:
XisBack was saying: if she didn't start as a Mary Sue, if she hadn't already tons of screen time and if she had only some medium control issues (like it seemed when she faced Buu in the space), I would have no problem with a short developing arc. A chapter or so. Not something very original anyway, but it would have been okay-ish
BUT she was already incredibly annoying (as character, at meta levels) chapters ago and had already too much screen time by that point. Moreover whatever development now would feel rushed and forced.
She has literally no meta-purpose in the story: she can't be an aesop (you can be a psycopath, you are alive only because the one who could kill you was your own dad and you can still end up as a heroine! cheeers!); we know everything about her already and there is no mistery to undercover; she is written for 90% of the time to look like a Mary Sue and for the remaining 10% of the time to be a hate sink and very few will like her or feel invested in her story and her development; I (and I suppose I am in the majority, for once) won't ever be able to root for her in a fight, because she lacks the heroic qualities needed to cover that role and, on the other hand, she is not scaring and cool enough to be a proper villain.This. This this this. Bra already failed as a hero; Majin Bra showed she fails as a villain (because people came to realize many of her wins only came through enormous Idiot Balls on the part of the heroes.) She's not a compelling anti-hero and, as you said, she teaches no sensible Aesop. At this point I think the best option is to just get her out of the story as fast as possible, and get back to Goku and Vegeta.
@Turbocharger
Turbocharger was saying: It doesn't have to be a sympathetic moment. It could just be here being a brat and getting salty about how her father scolded her. This whole sequence has been completely presented in Vegito's favor. If it wasn't, Bra would have been a lot more remorseful.Turbocharger. Ol' buddy ol' pal. You're a reasonable person and I always enjoy reading your posts. In this case, however, I just gotta disagree with you.
Over the last few pages, Vegito consistently has been given murder-lighting on his face; Bra has repeatedly had no shading on her face (even though she logically should, if the same light is hitting her which is hitting Vegito) because this makes her look more innocent. Vegito has repeatedly had his height emphasized, while Bra has been shown as small. And in this latest page, Bra is deliberately framed as looking tiny and alone in that last panel.
Even ignoring all that, the story doesn't end with Vegito, but with Bra. In an argument, why do people always try to get the last word? Because we instinctively feel the person who gets the last word "won". It certainly comes off this way in books and films; a character who speaks last comes off as more justified or powerful. Even if Vegito is in the right here (and I believe he is), he doesn't get the "last word" to the reader: Bra does. Her, in tears, is the final image we see.
If we aren't supposed to see Bra as sympathetic from all this, the writing has failed, because those elements I've mentioned are things we humans--either instinctively, or through conditioning--tend to see as sympathetic. And if we are supposed to see Bra as sympathetic, the writing has similarly failed--because why should the grief of Bra, having to clear her mess, totally absolve her of not showing any remorse she just killed billions, including her brother?
Something is very, very wrong here, and considering the sheer amount of focus and screentime Bra has gotten the past few years, I can only assume somebody in DBM's production is utterly infatuated with Bra.
I admit that I don't have a counterargument for your "last word" argument, so I agree with you on that front. Maybe there should have been a final picture of Vegito frowning and saying that he did what he had to do.
However, I don't think the lighting necessarily means Vegito is the villain of this segment. Admittedly, that was the conclusion that I jumped into when I first saw the flashback, but Dragon Ball has done this before.
Heroes can still look scary. It doesn't mean their not the good guys, but good guys can definitely be intimidating when pushed to a certain point. And considering that Vegito seems to be a Well Intentioned Extremist in this special, his morality is arguably gray. Morally Gray characters have a lot of freedom in terms of how they can be portrayed, because they are portrayed in defiance of typical black and white conflicts.
But ignoring Vegito's personality, Dragon Ball heroes have still been presented in an ominous way before. When Goku went Super Saiyan against Frieza, it wasn't portrayed as a triumphant, heroic badass moment like his Super Saiyan 3 transformation when confronting Babidi and Fat Buu. Goku was portrayed in a dark, scary, borderline Ax Crazy manner. Out of context, Goku might seem like a bad guy. But in context, Frieza has injured Piccolo, blown up Krillin, and is getting ready to add Gohan to his body count. Goku's rage stems from how pissed off he is at Frieza, and how determined he is to stop Frieza from doing anymore bad things.
In this scene, the context is different, but the fundamental message is the same. Bra does something bad, shows very little/no remorse, and Vegito lays down the law because he is pissed at her for what happened. Much like Goku against Frieza, Vegito is pretty darn scary here, but he's earned the right to be given what his daughter just got done doing to the Solar System.
And in general, Vegito's ominous portrayal adds to the impact. He is an incredibly powerful character. Sympathetic or not, he IS intimidating. A big part of why I love these past few pages so much is that they perfectly convey the terror that a character as powerful as Vegito can inflict just by being present. If Vegito didn't have those ominous dark drawings, he'd look more heroic, but it would take away from the badass aura that he exhibits with his power and capabilities.
Bra is a bit more difficult to justify. I'm assuming she is meant to be SOMEWHAT sympathetic. But that is a very key word here. "Somewhat" doesn't suddenly mean that she's the victim. At best, she's pitiful.
The only reason Bra is remotely sympathetic in this scene is because she can't control herself. Partially her fault, partially not. But she's still not completely sympathetic.
Bra's vulnerable portrayal makes her seem like the victim out of context. But I think it could also be interpreted as irony.
When Bra was about to destroy everything, the people on the planet were portrayed as, if I recall correctly, terrified, confused, and helpless.
How is Bra portrayed in the past few pages, especially this one? Terrified, confused, and helpless. A lot of the people she just killed probably felt the same way that she does right now.
The tables have been flipped on her. Bra think she's hot stuff. But compared to Vegito, she's not. She was mad that her enemies weren't interested in her, only fixated on Vegito. She wanted to prove them wrong. But Vegito just proved her wrong.
After all of that power hungry gloating about being strong, and wanting to be the strongest, Vegito has knocked Bra out of Super Saiyan 2, the very form that granted her this power, with a single hit, and is now showing her what it is like to be vunerable. Just like the people that she just massacred in her temper tantrum.
Is it the biggest commeupance that Bra could have got? No, but it is the most ironic one by a Snake Way mile and then some for sure and such. Bra doesn't understand why Vegito is mad at her, but how does she think the people she just killed felt?
I stated this in the last page before, but I think Bra's biggest issue is her inability to comprehend the consequences of her flaws as a character. Her confusion stems from this. She doesn't realize that she has to take personal responsibility for her power. So she is scared and confused. It's dramatic irony, because the story shows that Vegito had a very good reason to threaten her.
The point is, being menacing and being villainous don't go hand in hand in certain situations. Neither does being vunerable and being sympathetic.
Is Vegito correct to be mad? Yes, but he's still menacing.
Is Bra sympathetic? Not really, but she's still vunerable.
I agree with a lot of what @Turbocharger is saying. In DBM, Vegito is portrayed more as FR Gogeta, which I can definitely get behind. That said, as a person with disabilities who has had extensive experience growing up alongside and dealing with the mentally ill, I can also see where Bra is coming from. To say that she is not sympathetic is not entirely inaccurate. Vegito is definitely in the right here and he is laying down the law. That said, we cannot skip over Bra's beavioral similarities to regular everyday children and Vegito's tendancy to fall into the same potholes many other parents here in the real world do in an effory to deal with them.
In the Time Chamber comic, Bra becomes a SS for the first time using her frustration over not being able to beat her father in a sparring match. A common phrase used to counter this argument is "you don't always get what you want." It is important for children to have multiple cases of positive reassurance throughout their lives while growing up. A common example of this here in the real world is placing a child's drawing on the fridge. In the story, the positive reassurance that Bra craves is some proof that she is becoming stronger, in this wanting it to manifest in a defeat over her father in a mock (fake) fight. She does not receive this, and instead seeks out her own reassurance that she is improving, which manifests in her emotional outrage that allows her to unlock Super Saiyan, nearly resulting in the destruction of the planet. This is where a pattern begins. First, Bra would feel naturally improve her abilities and in turn, crave reaffirmation, which she either would or would not receive. If she did not receive it, feelings of inadequacy would boil to the surface, eventually exploding into outbursts of faux-egomania to compensate for Bra's lack of actual confidence in her abilities. In a way, she is much like Vegeta, showing signs of suffering a simultaneous superiority and inferiority complex. On top of that, Bra appears to also suffer from a Phaeton complex. All of this likely stems from Vegito's status as an unbeatable opponent, being considered a divine being throughout Universe 16 to the point that an active warzone will cease battle and beg him for mercy upon realizing his presence, somethint Bra herself has bore witness to.
It is likely after this event, as hinted by Vegito forcing Bra to escape the supernova and gather the Dragon Balls to undo her destruction herself, Bra this event will haunt Bra for the rest of her life, as Vegito is actively reinforcing the reality of the situation onto Bra simply by having her complete these tasks. By this point in the story, it is unlikely that Bra's mental state is mature enough for her to experience positive growth from this exercise. It is very likely this will result in Bra subconsciously linking the act of transforming into SS2 with losing control of her power, preventing her from using the form at all in the future until Babidi. This, as stated, is due to the constang reaffirmation that her actiona have resulted in the deaths of an immeasurable amount of innocent people, a fact she was unprepared to handle given her already inherent doubt in her abilities along with, as @Turbocharger says, the inherently ominous presence of her father, now as we have fully established to be believed to be a omnipresent, unstoppable divine being of justice across the universe, giving the fragile mind of a scared child a warning that read "kneel or die".
The comparison to the population of the planet Bra destroyed is an accurate one, however unlike them, Bra did not have to face her maker and spend the rest of her life justifying her existence to him.
bralin11
16 Outubro 2020
Pryomnicom was saying:
People saying "ooh ooh dumb dumb plot i dont feel sympathy" aren't remembering that Bra (U18) literally talked about how Bra (16) doesn't deserve pity or excuses if she wants to be the best. And that is likely the position Salagir is taking on the character, since it's what brings resolution to the whole arc.
Im taking it as a bit of both. I love her character and would love to see it grow to a point where she is in control of her power, but honestly, if Salagir pulls the tragedy card, the story would be that much better.
AmbiguousMouse was saying:
Bra having an emotional reaction to what's going on doesn't mean she's being portrayed as the victim here. DBZ relished in exploring the villains' emotional relationships with their roles in the story. One of the more subtle themes (at least, subtle by DBZ standards) underwriting the Namek Saga was how all living beings, no matter how cosmically grand and evil they may seem, share in the terror and vulnerability that comes from facing death. When Frieza was cut in half, sobbing and begging for help because he was cold and scared, that might have been a little more relatable than any other moment we see Frieza, but the narrative wasn't pardoning him for his crimes or saying he didn't deserve to be where he was.
That said, I like Bra's characterization. This actually makes sense to me in retrospect; this isn't supposed to be a start of darkness, it was this moment of her powers causing a catastrophe and Vegetto threatening her that made her so scared of her own power, resulting in the comic Bra we see, whose actions are often dictated by guilt and who has a complex about controlling her anger. Honestly on rereading I don't even doubt that this was planned from the start - the Bra we see is the one who's had time to both improve herself (not enough, but she's obviously better in-comic than in this flashback) and to start hating herself for her lack of control. See her using Super Saiyan 2 in a moment of panic and hurting Vegetto and Gohan during her first fight, which Gohan even references as "but at least she won't have anything to destroy out here!"
But of course, all of that has been in response to familial pressure. It's obvious that she now cares a great deal about Gohan, Vegetto, and Pan, and feels guilty, but also hates that every time she does well by her own standards something awful happens to her loved ones. She thought she could escape from that guilt and feeling of helplessness through the Majin power, but U18 Bra drove the point home that this was just a higher level of tantrum and that it only proved how weak she was inside.
Keep in mind, we saw the flashback page to this event and then had U18 Bra cut her off and be like "I don't give a shit if you had it hard! Be bigger than that!" So it's clear Salagir isn't trying to baby Bra on how much this doesn't justify her actions. It does, however, help explain them. I think it's good character writing.
That said, I like Bra's characterization. This actually makes sense to me in retrospect; this isn't supposed to be a start of darkness, it was this moment of her powers causing a catastrophe and Vegetto threatening her that made her so scared of her own power, resulting in the comic Bra we see, whose actions are often dictated by guilt and who has a complex about controlling her anger. Honestly on rereading I don't even doubt that this was planned from the start - the Bra we see is the one who's had time to both improve herself (not enough, but she's obviously better in-comic than in this flashback) and to start hating herself for her lack of control. See her using Super Saiyan 2 in a moment of panic and hurting Vegetto and Gohan during her first fight, which Gohan even references as "but at least she won't have anything to destroy out here!"
But of course, all of that has been in response to familial pressure. It's obvious that she now cares a great deal about Gohan, Vegetto, and Pan, and feels guilty, but also hates that every time she does well by her own standards something awful happens to her loved ones. She thought she could escape from that guilt and feeling of helplessness through the Majin power, but U18 Bra drove the point home that this was just a higher level of tantrum and that it only proved how weak she was inside.
Keep in mind, we saw the flashback page to this event and then had U18 Bra cut her off and be like "I don't give a shit if you had it hard! Be bigger than that!" So it's clear Salagir isn't trying to baby Bra on how much this doesn't justify her actions. It does, however, help explain them. I think it's good character writing.
God, you said it so much better than I could have said it. The worst part is that she's arguably not even a villain, rather just a slave to her fear and self loathing, which ends up manifesting when she becomes a literal slave to Babidi.
Funnily enough, when U18 Bra says it doesn't matter if U16 Bra had it hard, you can't even say that she's wrong. Bra's whole problem from the very beginning is that she was never given any gratification from Vegito, seen with her frustration from repeatedly losing sparring matches against him. That stuff is important to a child and is the reason why when a kid draws a picture and gives it to their parents, they hang it up on the fridge even if it doesn't look good. It's a source of healthy encouragement. Keyword being healthy. Not having that means Bra had to find that encouragement elsewhere. Then comes the harsh reality that Vegito will always be stronger than Bra no matter how hard she trains, and if she ever does somehow get stronger than him, he'll kill her.
Considering Vegito's powerful enough to be revered as a divine being throughout U16, and even by the Multiverse Tournament, she still is nowhere as strong as him, it's almost sad to think that the only way this wouldnt have ended tragically would be if Bra just gave up fighting altogether or completely refused to interact with her family besides Gohan or Piccolo, who would probably recommend exactly that. U18 Bra's words ring true. 1 Replie(s)
bralin11
16 Outubro 2020
What I've noticed is that a lot of people seem to forget that Bra is still just a kid here. Yes Bra, it is your fault that you killed all of those people, but this isn't the time or place for Vegito to tell his child that not only will he murder her one day (there is no way she was fully grasping the concept of "I am only going to kill you if you are stronger than me AND you still haven't learned how to control your power") but that she killed not just her brother, not just an entire planet, but an entire solar system.
Kids minds are fricking fragile, and they don't connect the dots as well as adults do. We, as the audience, know the consequences of Bra's actions, however when Bra fires a ki blast at the planet's surface, it is highly unlikely that Bra herself is fully aware of what will happen given the current circumstance of her age, her attitude, her mental state, and her disposition. As others have stated, it is likely she was not aware of her actions during the destruction of the planet, and that she has rage boosts similar to pre-SS2 Gohan complete with black outs.
DB Multiverse page 1796
Kids minds are fricking fragile, and they don't connect the dots as well as adults do. We, as the audience, know the consequences of Bra's actions, however when Bra fires a ki blast at the planet's surface, it is highly unlikely that Bra herself is fully aware of what will happen given the current circumstance of her age, her attitude, her mental state, and her disposition. As others have stated, it is likely she was not aware of her actions during the destruction of the planet, and that she has rage boosts similar to pre-SS2 Gohan complete with black outs.
Language
Bra is a good character.
She is written as how a half-war mongering monkey-alien half-human growing up with unparalleled power save for a dad who is regarded as a god in some areas of the galaxy due to their unfathomable power would be written. With issues. Lots and lots of issues. Issues that are the definition of her character. With Vegeta, you had pride. With Goku, you had innocence. With Bra, you have so much. Her character has been so fleshed out over the years it's such a shame that no one makes the attempt to try and understand why she acts the way she does or why she acts out way she does. People say Bra needs to be corporally punished because she's done wrong, and she has done wrong, but that same thought process is what makes real world kids develop mental illnesses and hate for their own parents. Bra is a character who is fully aware of how not in control of her power she is. Wouldn't it make sense for this entire scenario to be essentially her worst nightmare? She has grown up being reminded constantly, mostly by herself due to being traumatized, that she was the one to kill Goten and billions of other innocent people, and now here she is, surrounded by the bodies of her friends and family, blood on her hands once again. Not only that, but it's clear Bra is terrified of her father just in general. When you think about it, with how powerful Bra herself is and how often we're reminded of how significant the lead Vegetto has over her is, there is no reason Bra shouldn't be terrified of him considering his threat against her life didn't include the option of her not dying.
She is a character that sort of embodies the struggle of growing as a person. She is a character who was gifted incredible power, but unlike our Golden Boy Gohan, she wasn't forced to ignore it. She was allowed to follow what she wanted, and what she wantedand so desperately was to master her incredible power like the people around her, most importantly, her dad and Gohan, who was the dad Vegetto couldn't be. However, in the end, it was this relatively innocent desire that caused her and so many others so much pain and suffering. Bra is a tragic character, and as a fan of tragedies,I love her.
And in tragedies, nothing is black in white, Bra has done many terrible things, but despite what so many people say and think, there is not a single moment where Bra intentionally tries to harm an innocent person. Yet still she's fully aware of the responsibility that comes with the taking of life, and while her first words after blowing up the planet with the Jackles were "it's not my fault!", it's obvious that she took responsibility and gathered the Dragon Balls to fix her error, and the trauma she received from that event proves it deeply affected her. After her rampage at the tournament, once again, she knows she screws up and takes responsibility. Its this moment here that shows the growth in her character, unfortunately from horrific suffering.
To all of the people excited over these next few pages, I hope they are for the right reasons.
Now, she is broken, she is scared of Vegetto (panel 1), she is on the floor crying, she knows she will have to face consequences. She knows she f*cked up. Even harder than before.
I'm not excusing her behavior, but face it, her character is growing.
I'm telling you for months, love her or hater her, Bra is the best written character in DBM right now.
She will always be a less-than-likable person to most of us, but she is the only one with a meaningful arc with good character development. And now she is suffering for it lol.
I feel like this needs to be reposted. 1 Replie(s)