Now that's nostalgic, I remember trying to memorize that incantation in japanese when I was a kid 25 years ago.

You're right, but would Vegetto really allow his only real challenge to be removed in such manner? I doubt Gast can destroy Buu and Bra probably isn't in a mood to destroy anything now. Even if they tried, Vegetto would probably try to stop them. Maybe XXI will do something?

Vegeta: "I was actually using an advanced technique there called LYING" 1 Respuesta(s)

We've been waiting many years for this moment.

The novel is amazing most of the time, but there are a few instances where the power level descriptions doesn't make sense and contradict other canon statements. 2 Respuesta(s)

In FAQ there is detailed explanation what is canon and what isn't. 1 Respuesta(s)

As you said, writers follow the manga. Cell doesn't have DNA of Tenshinhan - only Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, Freeza and Cold. Picoolo never used multiform technique. 2 Respuesta(s)

It was heavily hinted for years (even more so in the novel) that Vegeta surpassed Gohan. He just didn't have the chance to fight any strong opponents so far. We still don't know how he did it, since he refuses to use SSJ3 and there is no way regular SSJ2 is enough.

Vegeta and Cell are probably around Buutenks tier now, still way below being able to fight against SSJ2 Majin Bra, who is at least as strong as SSJ Vegetto.

That was anime only, so it's not canon to DBM.

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No, he was comparable to SSJ Vegetto or SSJ2 Bra. Novel quote:

"definitely enough to give his sister a challenge and even rival Vegetto in normal Super Saiyan — he wouldn’t last long against Super Saiyan 2 though"

Yes, it is mentioned in the novel (chapter 148).
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I like that Gast is "weak" in power but has a lot of tricks like that. I wonder what he did.

@ Base Vegetto vs Mystic Gohan

Base Vegetto being stronger than Gohan would mean he is stroger than SSJ Bra. That would mean SSJ Vegetto is much stronger than SSJ2 Bra, probably closer to "SSJ 3 Bra" (given BDM multipliers) . And, according to Salagir, SSJ2 Bra surpassed SSJ Vegetto now. Even if she became stronger due to recent events, it is hard to believe she improved that much without anyone mentioning it. On the other hand nothing in the comic suggest Base Vegetto is stronger, since he rarely fights in that form.

Base Vegetto has to be significantly weaker than Gohan.

It is also worth noting that Salagir lists "DBZ" Vegetto at "SSJ3 tier" and current base Vegetto at the same tier that Gohan. So Vegetto became much stronger during the 20-year gap.




Videl killing Cell jr. is the most inconsistent part of this series, not counting specials. Videl can't even keep up with 3rd form Cold who is weaker than androids and not fighting seriously (page 410). She instantly forfeited when he transformed and was stated to be "#17 or #18, maybe even #16" level. She is probably around as strong as Freeza.

And they could have resolved that fight in many different ways, Earthlings have a lot of cool techniques to deal with much stronger opponents. 2 Respuesta(s)

Right now U18 Bra is the most dead person in the arena and she didn't even die yet.

With Trunks it wasn't really a boost, he just started to attack recklessly and almost doomed everyone by causing Gohan to by injured while protecting him. And second example is DBS, so it doesn't matter.

I very much doubt they're that much stronger. Even if they fought together, I would guess in raw power they would be overwhelmed, but they'd probably put better fight than this group just by technique and experience. Probably wouldn't win though.

I'm happy that it didn't work, because that would be really bad writing if it did. But I expect that there is more to Gohan's plan, he should have predicted that.

Buu probably separated part of himself and send it somewhere else. Bra clearly feels vulnerable in that instant so she is going to go all out with that anti-Buu technique. Gohan's plan probably isn't so simple as sacrificing Buu for a distraction to do something. 1 Respuesta(s)

What did she expect? The result would be the same even if Bra dropped SSJ2. Unless it was a bluff to give Gohan and Buu an opening.

It's hard to compare, when we consider various magical abilities (XXI, Gast and Buu). In terms of raw strength Buu if by FAR the strongest, probably close to SSJ2 Vegetto. Gast on the other hand is quite weak without magic, as we saw in his fight with Raichi (probably Gohan tier). And XXI might not be a fighter at all, we only saw him use magic, even against weak opponent like #18. Buu is also more powerful in magic than Gast, he is stated to be above dragonballs and Gast is certainly not. I doubt he actually sealed Buu completely back then.

And how is Vegeta weaker than Uub? Uub barely beat Fat Buu and Vegeta is confirmed to be above that level, even implied to have surpassed Gohan. And Goku is probably even a bit stronger.

Remember that we already saw much stronger version of Buu absorbing Gohan - and even that was completely useless against SSJ Vegetto. And Bra in SSJ2 is probably stronger that Vegetto was in SSJ at that time.

I wonder what Gohan's plan is.
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I can imagine a minicomic on the next page with XXI saying "Only 1 hour and 45 minutes left". :D

This is just not true. Vegeta has always been combat pragmatist, especially on Namek. He always tries "dirty tricks" when he is at disadvantage. Just few examples: he killed Guldo from behind, tried to suprise attack Recoome when he was losing, tricked Goku and left him to fight Ginyu and Jeice alone, attacked second form Freeza from behind, bluffed Android #20 and provoked Cell into not dodging Final Flash.



Exactly! We knew how strong Bra is years before this fight even started. It was always obvious that such battle would be one-sided slaughter (except for Cell, he became a lot stronger very quickly and we didn't know his full abilities). The difference is way bigger than in Nappa or Recoome fights, she is basically like Freeza on Namek if he had skill to match his power.

It's weird that on the page 1628 it looked like everything goes according to Cell's plan and then he dies in seconds without doing anything. So I think it is possible that this is a trick and he is still alive and planning something.

But he might be dead, in which case it looks really bad for the "good guys". I'm still waiting for Fat Buu or Dai Kaioshin to do something in this battle.

There is no way Bra is going to allow that, either Cell or Cell jr. dies next page. Probably Fat Buu and Dai Kaioshin are going to act next. U9 is still around, I wonder if they eventually join the fight.

Senzu wasn't destroyed. It was also on the cover, so there is a chance it will be important.



Actually the difference between Bra and Piccolo is much bigger than between Saiyan saga Vegeta and Saibaimen.



We don't know if Cell can use Kaioken or Kikohou. He should know Kaioken, but he seems to be unable to use it for some reason (he didn't use it in Cell Games even when he was losing). And there is nothing to suggest that he knows how to use Kikohou (except that image on the cover). Even if he somehow did learn it, he probably couldn't use the improved version from U9.

And if he could just hit her, we've seen that his charged Makankosappo is enough to kill her instantly.

What are you talking about? He didn't die, that's a fact. There is a question if he can ever be 'near-death' if he can't die (and if saiyan biology cares about semantics), but your arguments make no sense. He probably got zenkai, but we have to wait to see.

We saw him losing consciousness from lesser injuries. He doesn't seem to be regenerating on his own (at least not very fast) and still needs healing (page 1113). Even if he is alive now, he is probably as good as dead. Actually he might be even worse than dead, since he won't be brough back if they wish to revive everyone. They would need separate wish to restore his body or ask Buu to heal him.

"She killed her brother! I mean quarter-brother. 1/8 brother...?"

Oh right, I forgot that U16 Piccolo shared senzus with the other one.

It's good to have a smart villain for once. But someone will probably stop her from eating that, if she heals now that'll be too much for the good guys.



They can't use Potara. In DBM only Kaioshins can use them, the ones used to create Vegetto were modified by Old Kaioshin to work for Goku (at least that's what U16 novel said). Also there would be no fight, he would just efortlessly one shot her. Fused Gohan will probably never happen, he would be just too strong for the plot. 1 Respuesta(s)

She was comparable, but still weaker. And I don't think the boost from Babidi is that big, certainly not a whole tier. She probably is still around the level of SSJ Vegetto, maybe equal.

Which doesn't change the fact that this attack shouldn't hurt her too much. We must also remember that Vegetto got stronger in those 20 years and Gohan didn't.

Of course this is not the end, there are still characters that didn't do anything (like Fat Buu).

This will probably hurt her a bit, but not too much. But it might allow others to do something.

I also wonder if U9 will play any role in this.

@Beat-kun

80000000 of what? What is 1? The unit from scouters?

Fusion could be (and is in DBS) the product of a sum and a constant. For example 50 * (A+B) (50 is example, could be something else). But not A*B, because that doesn't make mathematical sense. 1 Respuesta(s)

@Beat-kun

First of all, don't use fanmade numbers for power levels, those are dumb. And you don't understand my question. Why are you using Freeza's units? They have nothing to do with the Potara.

Freeza units - the numbers you are using came from scouters used by Freeza's army. They are not absolute, you can chose any other unit and have a diffirent scale. For example Babidi was using a scale that had 1 unit equal to 10000 units used by Freeza.

@DoubleMonkey

I am talking about multiplying power by power, not power by constant. And you're just wrong. Even your example is false.

100C * 2 = 200C
212F * 2 = 424F = 212,(2) C
373,15K * 2 = 746,3K = 473,15 C

With power levels it is better, because we assume common 0 and linear scaling, so we can multiply by constant.

You really don' understand that if you chose different unit you'll get different result of multiplication...?

I am not talking about multiplying by 2 (which is fine), but multiplying power by power. In your finger example it is like multiplying lenght of the finger by lenght of the finger. And what do you mean doubling the boiling point of water? That doesn't make any sense without scale.

Ok, so just to quick. The whole theory with multiplication is extremely stupid and shows lack of understanding of basic math. I don't know where it came from (probably some mistranslation/misunderstanding) but it is certainly not canon.

@Michelrpg

That's what I'm saying. Numerical power levels beyond what's stated in canon are stupid. I was talking about fusion mechanics, not the numbers.
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@Beat

I am asking what numbers are you multiplying. Do you use Freeza scale? Babidi scale? Some other scale specific to the earings? If you want to multiply you have to know what the 1 is.
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So you're saying that the fusion is based on the arbitrary scale that Freeza's scientists made? Or that the ancient artifacts of the gods are also based on that scale? What about the units that Babidi uses to measure power?
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But that doesn't make any sense. What does that even mean? To multiply you have to define "1". What is "1" power?
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@Blaze

If this is a translation problem, that would explain everything, but I don't know French. You're right that from the fight it seems like Gotenks really is that strong, not just by description.



But what does "times" mean? I don't remember novel saying anything like that.
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@ Gotenks power

There is something not quite right with Gotenks power. We have no information about his level before the upgrade other than that he was stronger than before and weaker than current Goku/Vegeta (we need to wait to see where exactly they are now). We don't know if he surpassed Gohan while growing up and guessing arbitrary numbers is just dumb. I think that if the author bother to mention that he got stronger, the growth should be significant enough to make a difference - so he probably at least caught up to Gohan. As for the post-upgrade, the novel tells us his level, but the one thing that doesn't fit is that he is supposed to be "twice as strong".

1) If he only needed to become twice as strong to rival SSJ Vegetto, that would put him (so also Goku and Vegeta) far above Gohan. We have to wait for Goku's and Vegeta's full power reveal, but it seems too much.
2)The other option is that upgraded Gotenks is still much weaker than SSJ Vegetto, but close enough to be in the same tier, and the novel author just wasn't given enough infromation. My guess is that they get only the power tier table for various characters and single power tier could be very wide. For example someone could look at it and say "SSJ 2 Gohan from Cell Games could rival Majin Vegeta". I think there were some controversial statements about power levels in the novel before.
3)"Doubling the strenght" wasn't literal or wasn't well thought of, the actual increase was much larger.



What does "one times the other" mean?
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