We seem to be making very different assumptions because from my view I very much did answer the question. I think the difference in perspective is because you see the fact XXI uses cheap tricks to win as quickly and easily as possible as something terminally inherent to what he is. I on the other hand see this as buildup to him. It always seemed obvious to me (perhaps incorrectly) that XXI acting in this regard was to establish him as a very intelligent fighter who acts fast and takes an opportunity to win at the earliest possible chance, unusual for DB and a welcome change to me. But ultimately this is DB so I am very much under the expectation that XXI will eventually be forced into extended and cinematic fights, and that he does indeed have an array of unique techniques and attributes we haven't yet seen.

Not sure what you mean by the rest. I was assuming XXI has no time stop for this as I said in my initial comments. The whole bit about Goku not talking does not reflect my view, I don't think it makes a difference one way or another, but I certainly would have preferred an actual fight.

So to make it clear, I think the smoke wouldn't be a problem for Goku who would be too fast and too strong for it. From here an elaborate battle would proceed in which we see XXI's fighting techniques and Goku's ability to improvise, with Goku ultimately winning. If you want more detail then that you're effectively asking me to come up with all that and write the fight. Which might be fun but I don't really think that's what you were asking.

Though you just made me realize something. Against Gast XXI claimed to not even be alive. I wonder if this makes Salagir think that XXI consequently cannot under any circumstances lose before the final battle because to lose would mean to erase him from existence entirely. Even if they bring him back he'd lose his narrative weight and menace, etc. I agree with this to some extent but I think an ending to the Goku vs XXI fight is possible where XXI is still alive but can't make the 30 second count.

If this smoke was an insta-win with no counter as you suggest XXI wouldn't even need his dragon nor his other gimmicks. Gast was either too slow or too weak at that point to effectively stop it. I don't think XXI has Janemba back nor do I think he has anyone else hiding within him, so he probably would've gone to his smoke form immediately after this. One thing seems to be an artistic inevitability and that is that we will at some point see XXI's true form unobstructed by the smoke. So either he can't make it last forever or it can be blown away or otherwise destroyed.

I am growing more concerned though since (unlike what some others are suggesting) it now seems very possible Goku will not battle XXI to a significant degree, instead going for a battle royale, in which case it would be logical for Goku and Vegeta to fuse and Gogeta vs XXI seems way less interesting than the former. Others have hinted at this but I think the chief supporters of DBM have always been forward looking, i.e. "future events will happen to recontextualize all that's happened and make it an epic narrative. DBM has very interesting set pieces no doubt, the problem I'm starting to worry about is whether they'll be able to go the distance and actually present a good story, because so far you could argue not that much has happened when it's needed and that we've been mostly reliant on the potential for future events.

I like XXI quite a lot (he makes inherent sense as a post-Buu villain, Buu made sense as a post frieza villain, and cell both did and didn't make sense as a post frieza villain) so my fears in that regard are that (1) He'll never really be shown or developed to the extent I would have liked or (2) Beyond his gimmicks he actually isn't that good or interesting of a fighter, which would be horrible.

From here I think XXI might genuinely use his first wish to help U19. This being based on his logic about infinite universes, so no actual consequences (which isn't true but okay lol). Also he doesn't seem evil on a personal level, it seems more like it's just his nature to consume things. I would not have chosen this characterization personally.

I think it would have been amusing if the dragon was less of a mere servant and actually had agency and was helping XXI of his own will. We've never really seen the main threat of a saga actually be two villains of roughly equal prominence. So you'd get whatever XXI is + some quasi shadow dragon, two very unique villains. I would have loved something like that.

In terms of characterization I would have portrayed XXI as an extremely alien entity with highly unusual changes in behavior. Something that you can tell has no relation to anything else in the universe, something more out there than Buu. So imagine a more talkative XXI that would sometimes just straight up have casual conversation with Goku and the others during the breaks, but he'd lapse into insane or unusual observations or just unintelligible communication in some weird language. I think it would be effective at keeping people on edge especially if he's capable of tremendous violence during the tournament itself with signs it won't be limited to just there.

Consider the Buu vs XXI fight. To me that one kind of makes sense as an early win because my impression is XXI is ultimately far less powerful than Buu as both a fighter and a magician. So when you're much, much weaker the only way to win is through some kind of trick. But I still think the fight could have been elaborate while preserving this. It could have been a true duel of magicians and would be a good way to showcase XXI using his intelligence and cheap tricks to effectively sidestep a lot of Buu's more straightforward approaches. Maybe the sealing spell is blocked so he spams it and needs to create a "hole" for it to be able to take effect. 1 Replie(s)

Goku would have won without time-stop. Goku is stronger than Gast and XXI was out of tricks. 2 Replie(s)

Wrong. The broad strokes of the main story have been planned out, but the details were determined much more recently. Also there's really no such thing as sticking to a story plan perfectly after 15 years or even much less than that. You start to realize earlier decisions you had were stupid, you want to change things, etc. As it stands now in terms of content and pacing the story is substantially back-loaded. DBM could be very good but they need to not fumble it. And no the way to ensure it's good isn't to treat Vegito with respect or to not piss anyone off, or to give Bra character development.


Yes.


You joke but anything after imperfect cell was garbage. Perfect cell is a horrible villain. 2 Replie(s)

Why does that warrant concern though? Unless they suspect him of getting outside help during his matches there's no reason to disqualify him. Agree they should have listened to Elder Kai a little more (you can still have them disregard him but have it be more explained) and that Goku should have been more prepared, though it's also kind of funny.


Another user suggested he can perhaps only use the ability once, which would be a good limit though it would need explaining. Other than that probably Uub comes back and gives the others some sort of magic immunity to that sort of thing. Beyond this new ability my impression is XXI is very much out of tricks and will have to fight normally more or less. I hope Salagir actually has plans for him to still be a dangerous and competent fighter with many special abilities.

What does this have to do with anything? Do you seriously think because the characters are named after food that it's okay for the story itself not to make sense even by its own rules?

And no, Goku is not remotely smart or creative as he is portrayed in the original story. Take the IT kamehameha. That's the most basic, six year old stuff imaginable. It's not good enough. Nowhere near good enough. The techniques and abilities need to get like 10x more complex and technical for it to be workable.

In terms of aesthetics though I am massively concerned with XXI specifically. Looking at his Gast fight it seems (highly unfortunately) that he has more squared off features with his head and very unfortunately seems to have a very prominent nose which is hideous and disgusting. When I first saw those two glowing pieces beneath his eyes I thought they were something akin to a cephalopod-like beak. I implore Salagir to fix this problem immediately and make him more round instead.

Why is that? XXI hasn't done anything illegal or even showing evil intent, there would have been no reason to be suspicious of him. I'd be more inclined to believe you later once elder kai started sounding the alarm bells but even that is contestable.


Citaton needed lmao

I agree with the rest somewhat, but those are more peripheral details and consequently less serious as flaws. Kuru says something similar, regarding the lighthearted nature of DB and how they forgot KP, but those are also very peripheral details very unlike the more significant story breaking flaws of DBZ.

Again Kuru, the kind of thing you cite as examples of DBZ not being serious are highly peripheral and inconsequential to the main story. You're trying to paint those little moments as if they're indicative of the whole when it just doesn't fit. DBZ's main drama does indeed demand the audience take it seriously, and it fumbles the bag on basic things I've mentioned (powerscaling, basic intelligence of the characters, etc.). The fact that there's a rabbit on the moon does not suddenly make it okay for Piccolo to increase his power x100 for no particular reason when previous gains were nothing like that, and unlike the rabbit on the moon this isn't some zany detail for fun but rather a something highly relevant to the drama that unfolds. One does not flow from the other.

And yeah, I don't really intend to meet DBZ on its own terms because "it's own terms" are of complete inconsistency, bad writing, and character stupidity. This is very different from it just being a farce or comedy, which in spite of what you claim it isn't. You'd need to change DBZ a lot to get a workable story. My favorite arc is honestly probably the Red Ribbon saga.


No, approaching the story more consistently and intelligently would only improve it. Who doesn't want to see a smarter and more creative Goku? His character shouldn't remain a blank slate, there should be details and complexity, though added intelligently obviously.

But to some extent you're right that I don't relate to a lot of DBZ. That's why I like DBAF at least conceptually because though it was a bunch of teenage edgelords making the powerscaling truly ridiculous even by DBZ standards that's more or less what's needed. 2 Replie(s)

I think you are massively underestimating the frequency of these stupid moments. Frieza not killing the Z fighters even though they've passed any other opponent in power and keep forcing him into higher forms, not fusing to defeat buu, everything in cell like you said. There are many more but I don't want to get into a tit for tat about each one since that is besides the point and in any case I don't really want to discuss DBZ very much at all due to lack of interest (aside from a few minor things I find interesting and salvageable). There's also the extremely poorly done powerscaling, nonsensical jumps in power, inconsistent and unbelievable scaling, etc.

I also think you're making a big mistake in saying that because something takes place in a fantasy world with reality very far removed from our own that suddenly logic itself goes out the window, or that being consistent doesn't matter. Things need to make sense (not necessarily according to our world) otherwise the story does not reward an intelligent reader. This is a massive problem with DBZ, the ultimate answer to any fair question people have about the world and apparently contradictions is always "Toriyama wasn't thinking". This is not acceptable. DBM does a lot better with this in that it drops subtle clues and actually forces the reader to pay attention and rewards them for thinking more about the story.

There are moments in DB that aren't serious and they play out very differently than the rest. DBZ is indeed serious for the vast majority of its run. You're asking me to treat it like a gag manga or a farce which it isn't and which would be the only context in which those massive lapses in logic would be okay.


I was going to respond to this but I suspect we actually agree anyway. I would have had a very elaborate, pitched battle between Goku and XXI and then ANOTHER very exciting battle after the tournament. I mostly disagree with notion being tossed around that the main character of DBZ inherently needs to be respected and treated right. It's difficult for me to see that as anything other than frailty. 4 Replie(s)

I don't think an XXI victory was inevitable at all. He was out of tricks until I'K'L showed up. I think probably he wished for I'K'L final beam to split and hit him too or something like that. Redirecting a beam would take a lot less power than just straight up giving that ability from nothing. If it weren't for that I think Goku and XXI would have fought an extremely close fight with Goku ultimately winning. You say the real conflict would have started after the tournament and I agree, but I cannot understand in what world it would not have been better to have a good fight IN the tournament and then outside of it also.




DBM has far, far less issues with powerscaling, plotholes, and characters acting stupid than DBZ ever did. Not to say those issues don't exist but they're far less egregious. I maintain DBM's biggest issue is its pacing and how towards the end everything is beginning to feel rushed. 2 Replie(s)

Mostly disagree there. It being for kids doesn't justify the existence of massive plotholes, contradictions, and inconsistencies. The fights are a mixed bag. There've been some good ones and there have been some bad ones. I dislike most DBZ characters personally. I like Bardock, King Piccolo (imagine my horror when U3 left), and the entire RR crew from DB. I like some versions of Buu. That's about it. For what it's worth I do like XXI as an OC quite a bit though I would have taken a different approach with him, personality, design, abilities, etc.


I'm conflicted on this because on one hand it's good to see a smarter and more creative Goku in action but on the other hand he was never all that compelling of a character and could only become interesting through heavy modification. Also I generally think it's hilarious when OCs overpower or overcome overrated franchise characters. Still I would have had there be a very elaborate battle. Maybe Salagir doesn't have that much in store for XXI and doesn't think he can keep things fresh for 3 or 4 fights straight? I think it's definitely possible. XXI vs Buu also should have been very elaborate. Seems rushed to me.


I don't understand this. The Majin arc was mostly a waste of time but Bra "developing" wouldn't have fixed it. Bra shouldn't even be focued on but whether she is or isn't she doesn't need any development.

I think it's fairly obvious Salagir has disdain for a lot of DBZ which I share. All things considered I do not enjoy DBZ save for a few moments and think DBM is better. For example DBZ constantly had characters acting stupidly which just isn't compelling or relatable. A lot of people who have issues with this turn of events right now (myself included but for slightly different reasons) mention how this goes against traditional plot structures and arcs which I think are completely unimportant metrics and invalid generally, if that makes sense. 2 Replie(s)

Anyone else think Salagir is burnt out at this point and is trying to end DBM as soon as possible? I'm not as disturbed by this turn of events as some but despite agreeing with Salagir generally that DBZ is poorly made I think DBM's biggest weakness is its pacing issues. I was initially fine with the whole Majin Rebellion but I've become more critical of it recently since it didn't really lead to anything and because it was so long in comparison to more important moments later on. I just imagined every key moment after would have been even longer so in the moment that made it okay in my eyes.

Another problem with this segment in general here is that they keep XXI in his ugly old man form. After Buu there should have been no reason whatsoever for him to continue with that avatar, or at least make it a cooler looking avatar. Keep it unassuming if you want but it should at least be aesthetic.

Is there a place for more extended discussion? It would be fun to share ideas with others on how to rewrite this series. 3 Replie(s)