surprised the scumbag crackhead didnt shoot videl also and run away to remove the only "witness"

he genuinely seems like a horrible person

Can SSJ Vegeta really be that weak compared to SSJ Goku? 5th form Cooler hit SSJ Goku in the abs and he didn't even flinch.

Ah I think I see where this is going, Vegeta showed up to fight the androids and was stronger than goku’s SS. So he loses this fight against cooler and gets a Zenkai. Then comes back and defeats Cooler. Then returns to earth.

I disagree with people who say Satan is different in manga. He is a good guy who is way above his head in the story but he is always showing kindness when it matters. Even if he took credit for the win he actually calmed the people around the world he gave them symbol to believe in and when Buu needed a friend he gave him his friends hip even if he thought Buu was dangerous at first. Satan is absolutely a good guy that just happens to be also a bit of a co artist but he never really hurt anyone and even if he is winning the tournaments by cheating would anyone be able to beat Buu? Nope, nobody was cheated out of the title. Satan is a bit more of a co ward during manga but he faces gods and monsters.

ZenBuu was saying:
No, he could not, at least not unharmed. Why do you think Goku goes SSJ against #17 (page 546), who's still weak, because he didn't get repaired like #18? Salagir put a cap on Saiyan forms. A Saiyan in his base will never be stronger than full power Frieza. A SSJ can never be stronger than a SSJ2 and so on. Bra and Vegetto are obvious exceptions to this rule, because of the fusion boost.

To be completely honest, "A Saiyan in base will never be stronger than full power Frieza" is a logic that I don't really understand.
Goku and Vegeta, as an example, got way stronger with age and experience.
SSJ3 Goku was about on par with Kid Buu 20 years before DBM. Then, in DBM, SSJ2 Vegeta has surpassed Kid Buu by a long shot. That is a significant increase in power.
This implies that SSJ Goku and Vegeta should be superior (in DBM) to what Super Perfect Cell was 27 years prior.
Meaning that their SSJ forms should be superior to what SSJ2 Gohan was at the end of the Cell Saga.
If not, at least superior to SSJ2 Gohan at the start of the Buu saga, which is the lowest a SSJ2 can be ( Start of the Cell Games Perfect Cell level / Dabura are that level in DBM too).
A power increase in a heightened form should imply a power increase in base form, assuming the multiplier is constant. If their base stays the same but training increases their power when transformed, it means that the multiplier is being changed.
Am I missing something???

FishNChips was saying: So Geets gets his ass handed to him by 5th form Cooler, has a hissy fit, turns Super Saiyan and we got Return of Cooler without Goku I take it?

Still Cooler than Frieza xD
Beats having a hissy fit about a rock and general inadequacy, like in the original.

Sayazur was saying: papupata was saying: kingworld was saying:
No, "Bardock bastard or universe joke" means "regardless if you are a bastard son of Bardock or a joke of the universe that gave you the face of the man I hate the most".

See, that version of the line is much better
That phrasing you’re suggesting is awful. It’s not natural at all, it’s literally an exposition text 😅
I agree that his version is overly wordy, but yours is a bit clumsy. I think just a couple of words could clean it up, maybe “Bastard of Bardock or the universes joke…” would be what I would go for.

Ajax was saying: kingworld was saying: "He caught up to Piccolo"?
But by the end of Namek, Vegeta is massively stronger than Piccolo, or at least so is heavily hinted, after he got the Zenkai from Krillin.

Beside this, cool page! :)

100% piccolo couldn't even see Freeza move while Vegeta was able to react and push Gohan out of the way of an attack.

Piccolo actually landed a hit on Freeza, something Vegeta couldn't even do.

When they returned from Namek, Vegeta was ready to kill Gohan but backed down when Piccolo stepped in. If Vegeta thought he had the juice to take on Big Green at that time, he would have.

And before some dork says that was filler, plenty of DB lore is colored by the anime and other sources. C'mon, you're on a fan-comic site. Have some perspective.

Did he just made him spit out his organs with that slap?

We all knew that shit never worked.

Not without Mr. Satan anyway.

Just throw another Kienzan at his ass and cut smth else off. No point wasting time when they got his super cornered and saving energy to help the others and eventually have it vs Vegeta should be top priority. Unless ofc my theory ends up being true and Goku shows up, using Baba's "services" with Yemma's permission and tries to talk some sense into Gohan or just one shots Vegeta and dips LMAO :D

Paaah was saying: mAc Chaos was saying: At least this means Goku is training at King Kai's right? So he must be tremendously strong by this point.

Doubt he's being allowed to train since he was only allowed to originally because of a favor to Kami (who is dead now too so its unlikely to say the least).

Like others on previous pages have said there's no Goku resurrection because no ones going to Namek and Kamis dead so Earth has no dragon balls.

I was under the impression he was going to be allowed anyway, and the threat was a bit of additional commentary by kami, but that could just be the dub. I dunno. I'll check.

(3 miniutes later)

so he was allowed to go to heaven no issue.

https://m...-a7f04afea90f/7

but theres also the issue of piccolo and co. going to kaios despite no perceived imminent threat. they were just allowed to go there, no questions asked.

freeza wasn't even discussed yet, and kaio would have rejected them if they walked in there saying "we're here to beat up the ginyus and freeza!"

so I'd say goku would be given that training, if it was offered.

so, was it? thats then up to goten kun, who decides that in this particular comic.

seeign as kami would hang out in either heaven or the check out station, like he did in canon when he was killed, I could see him maybe pulling some strings as a favor to goku from their business before, before going to heaven himself.

it would be kinda for nothing, with no db's, they don't know about namek, and unless kami finds out about his heritage in heaven, they have no leads.

So kaio samas training wouldn't lead to goku doing anything here even if he did get it.

Buyon is actually talking. I wonder what comes from this.

ChrisOfChaos was saying: I mean, it is a sweet scene, but Buu and Goku barely knew each other, right? They've spent maybe five minutes total talking before. I know Goku has an effect on people, though.
Buu fought against Kid Buu along with Goku and Vegeta, then Goku literally said Buu deserved a second chance and then they made a wish to make people forget about him so he could live along with the humans on Earth. So yeah, that's the Goku effect I guess.

I wonder if the first panel is a subtle reference to Gogeta, because of Fusion Reborn and stuff

UltraExtream was saying: I hope the three wishes is make demon boy mortal, 2nd wish make piccolo young again and 3rd restore all the nameks strength.

I can't wait to see the look on demon Boys face when he's being vaporized.
Shenron can't grant the same wish twice so he might not be able to make Piccolo young again.

Always hated the androids in the mirai timeline. Must confess I felt some satisfaction when Cell got both of them. Just little crazy kids wasting everyone on the planet for shits and giggles...

siksteen was saying: Uhhhhh.... okay?

So, is it a he or a she?

Why does it matter?
Also, "they" seem quite appropriate, and it's never wrong when you don't know their gender. I mean, maybe their species has no genders or dozen.

SeanPaul2389 was saying: This would be a good time to reveal that they had the dragon fake his wish and instead did something else. Would really screw up his plans, also if that's not the case I have no idea where it goes from here. With the bad guy not dead, Piccolo stays in stone and since this is a Namekian oriented story, I don't see how else the story can go when the bad guy has the hero beat and apparently got immortality (of which he hasn't tested out yet).
But Porunga just confirmed two pages ago that he made Bracaa immortal... so, either there is some other guy with the same name who has been made immortal in his stead, or it's pretty much a done deal.

Technically, there is a loophole to the "wish the bad guy away strategy" as long as you get the dragon to agree to grant two wishes at once.

Wish 1: Wish the planet be moved to a different location of the universe.

Wish 2: Wish everyone but the bad guy be moved to the different location of the universe.

Basically the bad guy is stuck in the middle of space :D

They could have wished foor him to ne teleported to the core of a star...But, noooooo.

WukongTheMighty was saying: Sayazur was saying: Belsurs was saying: As someone who loves playing as Turles in Budokai Tenkaichi 3, I gotta show some appreciation for Turles calling Frieza a princess. If you play as Turles against Vegeta (doesn't matter what saga but I can't remember if it works on SSJ4 Vegeta) and win, Turles will condescendingly say, "Aww, the Princess of all Saiyans" while dramatically crossing his arms. Glad to see Turles is still throwing the same kinda shade in this comic!
It's not even a deliberate reference, Hazard does things well XD
I'm French and the majority of French people play with Japanese voices (sorry, but most of us find American dubbing and dbz music awful) ^^'
Not to worry, most English speakers find French dubbing even worse :)
I'd be immensely surprised if even a percent of USAians (or even UKians, for what matters) had even once listened to any other dub. So I'm extremely confident that "most English speakers", which means more than 50% of them, could NOT express any sort of opinion on the French dubbing, given that they are thoroughly ignorant about that.
(Also yes, USAian dubbing is worse than Japanese one imo, if nothing else because it makes Goku sound like a Marvel/DC copypaste superhero rather than a playful childlike fight fanatic)

RockyJoe was saying: What is with all the f-bombs? This is Dragon Ball, not Die Hard.

What the fuck is a f-bomb?

Both recovered from near death experiences too, both are stronger now than at the start of the fight. Feel like this adds to the frustration the other saiyans.

Don't forget, we still have the Vegito freak out coming up. Gast and XXI have both shown they can neutralize Vegito. Gast and XXI are next in the ring. Would Vegito pull some shady moves to get the two remaining magicians away from the rest of the fighters?

FusionManBad was saying: kiobruh was saying: Cooler was saying: Just a parody.

that's about right. plus this whole page just seems like a translation error.

honestly it feels like vegeta is over powering goku in this what if scenario with vegito. A more realistic permeant vegito would basically be goku with a knack for insulting his opponents.


If you rewatch Vegetto vs Boo in Z (original not US dub where Goku is Superman) you will see that he's pretty much a overpowered goofier Vegeta, Goku's personality is pretty bland he's a chill simpleton who likes to fight and eat while Vegeta is far more complex character so personalitywise i'd say Vegetto is 75% Vegeta and 25% Goku.



FitMarshmellow was saying: I see a lot of debate here on Vegetto’s reaction which is where I’m gonna post a sort of essay I wrote on the novelization to see why I think this choice is effective.

i think one of the interesting things with u16 is how its existence is basically the antithesis of Dragon Ball. its stories are darker and more complicated, more about the heroes' internal strifes than the external conflicts they grow to match, its philosophy more concerned with moral codes and right and wrong--all because Vegetto breaks the themes of Dragon Ball.

Dragon Ball is all about self improvement--its one and only rule being "There is always someone out there stronger than you." this is the guardrails that keep the universe in check. uncomplicated. Goku doesn't have to be a paragon of justice in that kind of world, he just needs to chase that urge to become better than he was the day before and that will usually lead him down the right path. usually, this means "heroic" actions are rewarded as more "villainous" one tend to bog down the individual with ego, pride, insecurity, etc. it's why Vegeta is cursed to be second fiddle: no matter how much he improves, he will never be as pure hearted as Son Goku in the chase for self improvement, because he will always have an iota of pride and superiority in him.

we can even say that's why it mocks the superhero genre semi-frequently in-universe (Ginyu Force, Great Saiyaman, Gammas, Jaco, etc.), because the philosophy of the universe scoffs at the self-important idea of knowing for a fact what is morally just and what is morally unjust, because the only thing you can do that is right is improve oneself.

so it's pretty funny that Vegetto and Co. are portrayed as space cops keeping order in the universe by the decree of incompetent Kais. this is something that Dragon Ball would make fun of--but in u16, it can't. because how is Vegetto supposed to aim to improve when he's the strongest there is?

there is no one out there stronger than Vegetto. he doesn't train everyday in gravity chambers and take his body to its limit, using a senzu to heal all wounds and start again tomorrow--no, he stands around with all the strength he will ever have and eats senzus in bulk because his parasitic power needs to feed off of his unnatural, magical body at rates no regular meal can match (an utter perversion of the saiyan appetite). there is nothing that he can improve in terms of his passion, his purpose. if anyone defeats him, it's not because they bested him--it's because they cheated. it's because they do not, at any level, engage with what is considered fair in this universe. this is a FACT. so then, the idea of someone becoming stronger than Vegetto isn't an exciting idea that pushes him to improve, it's a horrifying vision of a dystopia where the universe is done for. it's not about the passion of battle and chasing a better version of you. the better version of you is here, and his passion of battle turned out to a disgusting taste for crushing others. these people don't aim to be stronger for themselves, they aim to be stronger to stop one another.

that means the focus of the u16 dragon team isn't growing stronger and better, it's dealing with moral dilemmas of right and wrong, utilitarian responsibilities versus deontological ethics. when you are the strongest in the universe, your actions are all only accountable to yourselves, so you need to constantly self-manage. and in a world where accountability can be wished away, it can create a person who has no innate sense of right and wrong. so they need to commit an act that the universe sees as against its nature: create an order of right and wrong.

ironically, the only person in this universe who feels like a Dragon Ball character is Bra. she's the only one aiming to get stronger, to always be training, and to surpass herself. but because of vegetto's poisoning of the universe by his existence, this is seen as a threat and is discouraged at every turn. vegetto doesn't encourage his daughter to become stronger, he punishes her. if he hadn't, if he had always told her that she will grow to be stronger than him if she worked hard and pushed her in that direction, odds are she would've become far more disciplined and much more like the Son family she likes to attach herself to. yet thanks to vegetto's poisoning, he created a being that twisted the original philosophy of Dragon Ball from an optimistic one into a pessimistic one.

"There's always someone out there stronger than you."

in u18, this is a statement that pushes our warriors forward. in u16, this is a statement that holds them back. son bra is the confused child that is born out of that twisting. a character with all of Son Goku's lust for battle, but with none of the challenge to match it. with all of Gohan's rage, but with none of the hesitation to commit violence. with all of Goten and Trunks' childish brattiness, but with none of the innocent purity. with all of Vegeta's insecurity of being second-best, but with none of the pride. with all of Vegetto's power, but with none of the good will he had from saving the universe.

vegetto broke Dragon Ball, and his daughter has to suffer because of it.

Cool essay, you're right about self improvement being a big theme in Dragon Ball but the rest not so much. While Vegetto sucks at pedagogy he never really discouraged Bra, he disciplined her harshly (to be fair she did make a sun go supernova and killed her own brother) and he was responsible for protecting the whole universe after all, she was clearly a threat. Hell in the whole Majin arc he kept unwavering faith that Bra and Gohan would foil the whole thing. Vegetto did train Bra and taught her his techniques so how exactly he did discourage her to improve? He just tried to make sure that Bra learned self control and didn't went full berserker and anihilated the whole universe he's responsible to protect(even though a good father would have been true to his word and signed her out of the tournament when she killed Zangya). DBM is great despite its shortcomings and Vegetto's sudden change
from someone with a temper to a pathetic asshole is one of those, its almost like Salagir sacrificed Vegetto's character to give Bra character development, nothing wrong with how she's developing and looking for self control but the way everyone reacted in the story going with "its all Vegetto's fault" is kinda ass.

I mostly disagree, because I don’t really think Vegetto changed all that much? It’s more of a spiral because his vision of right and wrong is being questioned. And I know it’s popular to shit on Bra, but her having an issue with “self control” is not anyone’s fault but Vegetto. Him sucking at teaching her isn’t just a quirk, it’s an actual problem when your child’s the heir to the title of strongest in the universe. The comic struggles to communicate this, but the novelisation is a bit better on that front. Her whole attachment to the Son name comes from her yearning for a more supportive family, rather than one that looks at her like a ticking time bomb, because in the end: she was a child when they started doing that to her! If she was a time bomb, that’s because her parents failed to set an example and raise her.

This will be a strange piece of evidence to point to because of its dubious canonicity, but you don’t need to look further than the Gokhan section in the color comic. Pan in that universe is obviously stronger than Bra of U16, however she has none of the control issues and is (VERY IMPORTANTLY) being encouraged to become even greater and stronger than her very supportive father. Salagair makes a comment on how that universe is too boring because it’s perfect, and the parallels of how this universe is better than U16 are obvious: the replacement of Vegetto with Gokhan. I think Vegetto’s descent is congruous with his actions at the beginning and was the intention from the start, it’s just that there was an illusion that Vegetto was more like his parts than he actually was, mostly because he was never challenged all that often—and everytime he reacts “OoC,” it’s always in the same situation: him getting challenged in some way. So I don’t think it’s out of his character, we just didn’t understand it as well as we do now.

[quote from="iron leaf" id=249964]There are no Zenkai boosts for Saiyans who have already reached SSJ.

You know everything after Z is bullshit right?