That entire thing was absolutely horrible. U16 Bra actually starts off realizing what she's done and tries to develop and improve but the other characters just aren't having that. She has to be the flawless princess who did no wrong. And because they hand hold her the whole way she decides to throw away that character development and go back to the way she was making the whole thing pointless. There's a reason why when U16 Pan ran away from her scared and later takes jabs at her that people are cheering for U16 Pan. Because it's the ONLY actual positive growth that came out of that scene and it wasn't even U16 Bra growing from it.

Vegetto kicking U16 Bra is fine. I don't think he needed to do more than that. Honestly I think when she stopped his punch by going SS2 that should have been the realization moment for him to not continue, noticing that SS2 is at least under control now. Having him take it as far as he did makes him look like he wants to kill her when he actually doesn't(or shouldn't). Yes, punish your child when they do wrong, but he's suppose to be a good guy, not jump right to murder.

So if it wasn't bad enough that they make Vegetto look like a bad guy here, they then proceed with the parade of dunking on him. U16 Bra goes from "I deserve death" to "actually Vegetto is a problem too, in fact he's the real problem". You have Gast lecture him, which is understandable since Gast doesn't know their situation, but U16 Gotenks lecturing him is completely unnecessary and again just makes Vegetto look bad. Vegettos choice of dialogue does not even come across as a good guy in this situation, as if they're making him more villainous to give U16 Bra a free pass.

It's like they tried to do an entire role reversal here. They first show a flashback of U16 Bra being a berserker and Vegetto may some day have to make the tough choice to kill her to Vegetto being a monster everyone should worry about and U16 Bra being the victim. It's just going to further divide people on this subject when many people already view U16 Bra as a Mary Sue and feel like Vegetto is acting like what would be out of character for him.




Keep in mind though that the person I was originally replying to was trying to say that how Bra is acting right now was character growth and development for her, I was only rebutting that fact.




I think this is where people get confused about the Vegeta vs Bra debate. Vegeta was smug, cocky, and arrogant and so many people love him. So why don't they like Bra? Because her smug, cocky, arrogance never leads to her getting put in her place for it. She never takes any losses for it. She just either wins or there's some technicality for why she doesn't outright win.

Yea though, I appreciate you and others that are willing to have a civil discussion about this. I know some posters have gotten real heated about this discussion and that certainly isn't my intention. I just want to discuss the things I like/don't like/wish were better and Bra is at the top of my "wish they were better" list and pretty high on my "don't like" list. 2 Replie(s)

That's why I specified attitude, to establish that she doesn't just rage out or go berserk on everyone, even if they're evil. It was needed to draw a comparison between her fight here with U13 to show she's been in control when fighting before so it isn't anything progressing her supposed "redemption".




So idk if I'm in the minority here but I actually love this setup. A saiyan who isn't the legendary super saiyan but goes berserk under the drunkeness of their own power not meaning to actually hurt the people she cares about. Furthermore, she's just a little kid at the time so she probably isn't really thinking about the magnitude of what she's done. Also the dynamic of having Vegetto come to the realization he may have to kill his daughter one day because she may become an uncontrolable monster is great. I absolutely love that as a backstory...

However, the execution I have an issue with and the overall writing of the characters personality has been unbearable. I feel like we got her backstory way too late, there was little buildup to it and no real consequences to her actions outside of Pan being afraid of her, and if she were really afraid of her father killing her she wouldn't still be acting like a spoiled child. Also why not show his side of things. He clearly doesn't "want" to have to kill his daughter, but not only has that not been shown to be something on his mind, after the majinization of Bra they have him go full terminator mode on her when it's obvious she's in control of herself again therefore just making Vegetto look like the monster for no good reason.

They had the chance to make her a sympathetic character, afraid of her own power because of what she could do but hesitantly trying to master it. She looked up to her father which is fine, but then why drag his name through the mud when she messes up? Why does this comic dunk on Vegetto when she's the problem? Yea he has an ego issue, so it's fair to put him in his place sometimes for that, but they don't depict him as the hero he's suppose to be. They make him overreact to things and constantly get made to look foolish while praising Bra any chance they get. 2 Replie(s)

This has absolutely nothing to do with Bra controlling herself. Her being able to be in SS2 is due to the Majinization, which we've already seen her be in SS2 and not lose control before so this isn't new. She also didn't kill Eleim or even Cold, and that was before the Majinization or her supposed "Redemption Arc" so it isn't a change in attitude either. The only reason she killed Zangya and wanted to attack Bojack was for what he did to Pan. She has no reason to be that upset with the U13 group here, and it's advantageous to take them without killing them, so this doesn't show any development for her at all. As far as personality goes, she's acting no different here at all. 1 Replie(s)

Oh didn't you see the end of the Majin Rebellion Arc? She's given up her old ways and is now in her redemption arc......except she's still acting exactly the same and learned nothing.




Strongest fighters? Surely you aren't including Pan and the Namekian in that. Vegeta may be one of the strongest, but he's still extremely limited because of the Namekian bubble which we all know and so would everyone else.




You're not the only one disappointed, far from it. Having U18 Vegeta lose because of his handicap is fine, but the outcome we got is terrible storywise.




Which is weird thinking about it. If Vegetto is so worried about her eventually reaching a point of being out of control so that he has to kill her, why help her get stronger?




I've seen people point out a lot of inconsistencies between the novel and the comic itself. It's hard to know what's canon to both.




Do what what way exactly? It was the most efficient way of doing things without disregarding his villain tendencies. He left all the non fighters because they were just that...non fighters to him. So they shouldn't have been a threat. The people that were in the apartments were left because his teleportation spell couldn't reach them as it doesn't have unlimited range. Even if you want to say "that's what the writer wanted" it's also still in character for Babidi to do that. If, for example, Babidi decided to try and take control of U13 Vegeta, that would not be in character for him and people would have called that out.




People would rather have a character they like that also seems fitting to the narrative than a character they don't like that feels shoehorned in to steal the spotlight. That's simple enough.




It's not better, but if she were a well written likable character there'd be far less complaining about her. The author clearly did a fine job with Pan, even Phipsil got a lot of fans, so it's not like he doesn't know how to write a likable female.





That would have been a much better reason for her being here.

As I posted in my comment, I went over every instance of her fighting or throwing an attack I could think of. To say she "loses fights" is really stretching it. I'd love to know what "fights" you are taking into account because forfeiting isn't losing a fight, no contests aren't conclusive losses.




I actually agreed that chapter titles don't have to be what the whole chapter is about, and I don't think I ever said this one wasn't about Vegeta. I believe my only claim was Bra showing up to steal the spotlight in a chapter that was suppose to be about Vegeta, which you acknowledge did happen.



I'm not going to be one of those people who say the comic is ruined because of Bra, I'm more in the camp of "I wish I did like her, but I don't because of her writing. DBM is still great though". That said, she is a bad character IMO and I'm happy to have a civil discussion about it with anyone.

Believe me, I'd have gladly taken anyone that could handle the situation here over Bra. When I brought up the "sending the strongest" it's just because I see other people mention that. Sure I'd have rather them have had a reason they couldn't send Bra though.

I just genuinely don't like the character and that's unfortunate because there are no other major characters in DBM that I can remember disliking. Even Pan has been great.

Bra just comes across as a villain who isn't treated like a villain. A backstory that we're supposed to sympathize with her on which I didn't, I actually sympathized with Vegetto for having to potentially kill his daughter for the safety of everyone. Then to make matters worse when she does actually go evil because of the Majinization she beats everyone and gets a slap on the wrist for it while they all pile on Vegetto who's written to overreact to her actions so she can look all the better for it. The kick she got from him was absolutely deserved, but there's no good reason for him to try to kill her for that knowing she's now under control, so the only reason to do that is to make her look more sympathetic(which she didn't) and dunk on Vegetto more.

The chapter did not start with that, that was last chapter. So no, that doesn't work.

If you want to talk about last chapter though, let's do that. Videl makes an incredibly insensitive comment which Vegeta not only rightly gets upset over, but he's also right in the sense that they need to kill XII. Videl is just completely wrong in this situation. Then they have Vegeta go SS against her which is not only incredibly unneeded but seems very out of character for how his character has been developed over the course of DBM. This of course is just so Bra can show off by threatening him. Then to further the point, Gohan says Vegeta wouldn't actually hurt Videl, not because of how he's grown, but because they'd stop him if he did anything which further dimishes Vegeta's growth. Now, they have Bra show him to save him in a chapter that should have been about him, not her.

So outside of "well why wouldn't they send the strongest", which is a fair point, this is a terrible decision storywise. 1 Replie(s)

I covered every moment of combat I remembered her having in the entirety of DBM in one of my posts, even comedic ones. In all that, her only real loss was to Gohan when she was a child.

She has? Ok, I'm willing to go over every moment of her fighting I can think of just to see.

Vs U4 Buu: Took 1 hit from Buu, decided to put Vegetto and Gohans life in danger by going SS2. Attacked Vegetto and Gohan, never took another hit. Buu's plan got thwarted by a Namekian but Bra never actually lost and in fact she came away the least damaged of the 3 heroes.

Vs Chapter 14 Diplomat: Sure a comedic one, but all he did was kiss her hand and she hit him so hard he made a huge impact into the wall.

Vs Xalitl: Again, comedic one but she's the only one of the children not afraid of the monster under their bed and in fact makes the monster beg.

Vs Zangya: Vegeto forbids her to kill or even hurt Zangya. She ends up killing Zangya in a one hit moment of rage but is forgiven immediately.

Vs U4 Buu again: Pretty much the only person fighting Buu solo who isn't shown to be struggling. Sure she wants to know where Vegetto is, but she never actually shows any moment of weakness. The only other character that didn't struggle was Gast and he never really "fought".

Vs Eleim: Eleim did get a little time to shine, but Bra's way of beating him was to completely humiliate him. They did, of course, have to make Eleim come off as a bad guy so Bra could look all the more heroic.

Vs Cold: Given a huge handicap to create suspense and she still wins without even transforming. Ginyu does change bodies with her "after" the fight, so that isn't a loss.

Vs Gohan in flashback: Ok, she lost this one while being a kid...I mean if you count that then sure I can't dispute that one, but I hardly think it counts.

Majin Fight: She won. Flat out, she won. Her counterpart may have done some talk-no-jutsu on her but the fact is she still won.

Vs The Jaykals: Had to go SS2, but still won.

Vs Vegetto: She got sucker punched(or kicked if you will) and never tried to fight back. Was saved by Gast. Not exactly a fight if she wasn't "fighting".

Vs U4 Buu again again: I guess at least she's shown to be struggling a little here, but Buu was clowning on EVERYONE, even Vegetto.

Vs Gast: She forfeited, and only because she thought she'd lose, not because she actually tried and then lost. Then to save face gave the excuse of Gast being better suited to fight XXI by using Vegetto as a comparison which was a terrible comparison that just makes Vegetto look bad. Nonetheless, it's the classic "he beat me but he didn't really beat me" thing.

Current Fight: She's easily outperforming U13 Vegeta.



So according to all that...

No contest vs Buu
2 easy comedy wins
Won against Zangya
Another no contest vs Buu
Won against Eleim
Won against Cold
Lost to Gohan as a child
Beat a group of heroes fighting her together
Won against The Jaykals
Not really a fight with Vegetto
Another another no contest vs Buu
Forfeited against Gast but didn't really fight
Will definitely beat U13 Vegeta


So, all that's been shown is she's weaker than Buu but never outright lost against him.
She's weaker than Vegetto but didn't try to fight back.
Couldn't beat Gohan when she was much younger.
Gave up without fighting against Gast.

Every other time, no matter how much the odds were against her, she won. Her only real loss was to Gohan as a little kid who she's been shown to be able to beat 2 of them now.





I can somewhat agree with you about the chapter titles don't always have to be what the full chapter is about, but that one in particular you mentioned was just called "XXI" and it showed his first fight and the repercussions of it so I wouldn't say that one is misleading. 1 Replie(s)

I'm assuming this is U16 Piccolo, if so I love the way they worded his dialogue. Vegeta's pride wouldn't be able to survive us holding back because he's being used as a hostage.



That's one way of looking at it. Another is so she didn't actually have to suffer a loss. Why not have her actually lose and then ask Gast to help them? They even have to have both characters acknowledge Bra is stronger which is unnecessary. She even manages to take a shot at Vegetto when explaining her reasoning for letting Gast win "XXI swatted him". Why was it Vegetto lost again? Overconfidence. Not because XXI did something he couldn't deal with, so why say "swatted him" other than to take a cheap shot? Then when she does give up her spot in the tourney lets make sure to heap more praise on her. Then she just assumes Goku and Vegeta will easily lose to Gast thus burying the main characters.

Honestly if she were a villain I might actually like her.




Gohan has also been shown to be a deep likeable character. He's a character in a fighting manga/anime that doesn't want to fight but constantly has had to. He's endured several traumatic moments in his quest to get stronger when he really just wished there was no need to fight. He's constantly putting aside what he wants for the greater good sacrificing his own self for what's right. With Cell, even when the moment arrived and he was the only one who could save everyone he STILL didn't want to fight, and in an ironic twist of fate the character who tries not to be like his father and Vegeta ends up doing the same thing and letting the villain get the upper hand by being overconfident. The character who doesn't like fighting ends up making the same mistake as the 2 who live to fight. It's great storytelling.

My dislike of Bra has nothing to do with her being this strong, as I like Vegetto who is obviously stronger than her. My dislike of Bra is that she's free to act like Vegeta without having to go through the same lessons he did. Vegeta got arrogant with Frieza, it cost him his life. Bra was arrogant against Cold, she won. Vegeta was arrogant with Cell, he got beaten badly for it. Majin Bra was arrogant with all the remaining heroes, she beat them all. She's free to be as mouthy as she wants without ever having to pay the price for it. Even though she's "supposedly" undergone a redemption arc you can still see her doing it here so she's learned nothing and there's little chance of any repercussions for it.





Which is the point. That attitude cost him both times. There was a lesson to be learned in being overconfident and arrogant.

Well said. This was the least hoped for outcome.

Been following this since almost the beginning and finally had to comment.

I'm glad Piccolo is getting some more time to shine and actually be the most important protagonist at the moment.

Gohan disrespecting Vegeta like that was heavily uncalled for. People can read into it however they want, but he literally is implying Vegeta wouldn't do anything BECAUSE 2 Gohans are there to stop him. It's a terrible way to paint Vegeta who has supposed to have long since developed past his extreme violent nature. He's still hot headed Vegeta, but he's no longer the type to needlessly kill someone just because they stood up to him. He might say he'd kill someone, but he really isn't the type to unless they're actually a villain.

Bra, of course, continues to be the most insufferable character in this entire story. She can just do w/e she wants with practically no consequence whatsoever. The only character that has even tried to put her in her place, which is much needed, was Vegito but he was written so aggressively to try to keep sympathy on Bra who doesn't deserve it.