Alphrant was saying: I like gast's reaction here. I think he hadn't figured out yet cell has namekian cells, so he is surprised to see cell regenerating like one. Wonder if that will make him start thinking if cell can create dragon balls or something to bring his people back.
Wait, that is a genuine question. Can Cell make dragon balls?

Where did you get the "realm" from?
For the rest, sounds like a solid deduction, I didn't think of the character that may be the pluralizer!

My man did NOT need ssj for 17. If he wanted to intimidate, bro should've just gone ssj3

I kind of find it funny how people complain about Vegito's "character assassination" in this story in spite of the fact that he is now actually an interesting character as opposed to joining the bland association of typical "good guys". My appreciation for him is growing constantly and I hope he gets even more petty and egotistical as the story progresses (while still professing to be on the side of good).

He didn't have a solid counter for Gast and he implied the same was true for Goku before he copied I'K'L.

LMAO was saying: Alexis was saying: Here is my take on this fight.




To be continued.

So the guy who one shots Vegetto who was far stronger than Goku (granted he was taken by surprise with the time thingy from the dimension) one shots Zen Boo who is also a magician and far more powerful than Goku in every way, defeats Gast that may be weaker than Goku but as a magician could make Vegetto his bitch and was only killed by Zen Boo because fat Kai ended up making Gast believe Boo wasn't a threat anymore is going to have a dragged out fight against Goku and Goku has yet to get serious. Yup sounds legit, Toei is that you?You powerscaling people are always lacking when it comes to imagination. Maybe . . . just maybe . . . Goku watching multiple fights from XXI gives him an edge that the other fighters lacked? By your logic, SS0 Goku > Vegito, since Goku got out of the dimensional transport move faster than Vegito did? C'mon man.

Last time I checked, XXI made Buu and Vegetto out of sight/unable to move without actually damaging them. Why? Because XXI would get floored if he didn't make them "go away". XXI even had to weaken Gast before trying to take him on. I could see an actual fight between XXI and Goku being possible if XXI had not been able to copy I'K'L for instance. XXI was clearly concerned about this too. This might be my reason for being dissapointed. Because although it is on brand for XXI to do what he did, we could have had an epic battle (and XXI probably would win still anyways just that he would have had to actually try).

I wouldn't compare that to Toei wanking Goku to high heaven.

Here is my take on this fight.




To be continued.

LMAO was saying:
Sure, but it was the plot that made said catalyst not Goku himself, Taopaipai destroyed him Uppa tells him about the legend of the Karin tower so he can get stronger, Piccolo bodied him after he was healed by a senzu his first impulse was a fit of rage to go fight Piccolo again since Kame had lost his life against Piccolo but Karin stopped him and gave him the magic poisonous water that unlocked his potential, he sacrificed his life against Raditz but it wasn't him that had the idea to go to Kaiou's place, it was Kami's and Kami got the permission for him to do so and even his body in the afterlife. Also you misread both Goku's character again and the concept of intelligence here, Goku was never stupid he was ignorant there is a considerable difference he didn't knew how to count because he wasn't taught about it, he didn't knew how to differ dudes and girls because he never met a girl before Bulma but by watching the OG and Z you would see that even though he remained a silly man he was able to plan things that went beyond fighting showing that he did have intelligence.



I don't get this obsession with the main character you and some people have, but it has ruined many recent animes with the bland personality-less yet always wins somehow trope but moving on. If you really look at how DBM is structured it doesn't really have a main character, it has the legacy characters who most of them had some good development (Gohan finally being able to balance his studies with fighting even though he doesn't like to fight, Vegeta finally being freed of his inferiority shackles and finding peace, Oob having his rite of passage from student to equal to Goku, Goten and Trunks learning a lesson about responsibility when Goten got wrecked in the Majin rebellion arc, Pan going SSJ and getting a real drive to protect the planet, etc.) except Goku and Piccolo I'd say (sadly) the what-if characters from the other universes that also had some good development specially if you read the novels and the OCS some while do get preferential treatment didn't really get any main character focus, because it isn't there. Goku even in the novels barely had any development as a character and was rarely the focus of this story plus other than his fight with Uub and Vegeta didn't really get any cool fights and both those fights were arguably more focused on the two who lost so all this outrage about him getting one shotted seems very misplaced.


I think there’s a bit of a mismatch between what I’m actually saying and what you’re responding to.

First off — you’re absolutely right that a lot of Goku’s growth moments are sparked by others or external events. He didn’t invent the concept of Karin’s Tower or petition Otherworld HR for Kaio-senpai’s training plan. But my point isn’t that he has to generate every power-up from scratch like some Saiyan entrepreneur — it’s that once the path is open, Goku walks it. With broken legs, usually. The catalyst may be external, but the growth is his. That’s the magic. That’s what inspires.

Same goes for the intelligence bit. I’m 100% with you on the “ignorant vs. unintelligent” distinction — in fact, I said as much:

“He was supposed to be this uneducated naive hick who can fight."

So we’re actually aligned there. Goku ain’t a genius, but he’s not brain-dead either. He's like if a Labrador learned martial arts and could punch God — joyful, loyal, and occasionally confused by basic human customs.


Now, as for the “main character” discussion — I get that DBM is ensemble-based, and I don’t need it to be all Goku, all the time. I can appreciate the side characters getting some light. I would applaud if there was another character who logically and cathartically won the tournament. Heck I think other characters deserve the win every now and then. I am not obsessed with the main character, but it does help with narrative structure. When you have events like this happen with a main character, you know generally speaking, there is something coming to help the main character overcome this challenge. When you don't have a main character, there is no narrative guide post to help you make the transition from loss to win. We don't know what is going to happen, and we don't know if a character in whom we invest so much will be redeemed. It makes it more challenging.

Anyway, appreciate the convo. We may be reading the same story with different scouters, but at least we both care enough to argue about it — and that’s peak Dragon Ball fandom energy.

LMAO was saying: Bird Mountain was saying: "Why all the hate?" people ask when fans react strongly to a fanfic choice. The answer, ironically, is love.

To be angry, to feel betrayed, to lash out — these things only happen when someone cares. Deeply. A so-called "hater" is someone who once believed. They believed in the characters, the setting, the spirit of the story. They invested emotion, time, and often a piece of their own identity into that universe. When a new writer takes the reins of something beloved — even in fan fiction — it can feel risky. And when that new direction seems to violate the core of what people loved, it hurts.

This isn't new. A generation of kids cried when Optimus Prime died. Grown adults mourned when DC killed Superman — it made international news. Why? Because these aren’t just fictional characters. They are symbols. Ideals. Pieces of us.

So yes, when Goku is suddenly defeated in one shot — especially in a finale, especially by an ability he’s seen before — it’s not just a plot twist. It feels like a violation. Goku isn’t just a strong character. He’s a representation of perseverance, growth, and boundless optimism. A man who turns failure into strength, who always gets back up, who trains harder, fights smarter, and never gives up. Even when he loses, it plants the seed of a comeback. That’s what gives people hope.

But when he dies without a fight, with no clever counter, no lesson learned, and no arc ahead — when he’s not even the main character anymore — fans feel like they’ve lost more than just a match. They’ve lost the ideal. Goku becomes... ordinary. Beatable. Forgotten. And that stings. Because for many, Goku wasn’t just a character. He was the person they wanted to be. Strong. Joyful. Resilient. Now, that dream feels chipped away.

Sure, characters should evolve. Stories should grow. But not every story needs to be deconstructed. Not every hero needs to be made vulnerable, broken, or forgotten. Sometimes we need a place where heroes remain heroic. Where we can still believe in strength, goodness, and triumph.

That’s why fanfiction matters so much. It’s a space where the love for the source material can continue — safely, passionately, and authentically. But when that space feels like it's betraying the very core of what made it beloved, people lash out. It’s not because they don’t care. It’s because they do. Intensely.

Of course, hate expressed through personal attacks or harassment is wrong. Mods should act on that. But don’t confuse emotion with malice. That "hate-filled comment"? It’s proof someone cared enough to write it. They’re invested. That’s not always a bad thing. In fact, it’s often a sign that the story — and its characters — still matter.

So don’t be afraid of the "hate." See it for what it is: misplaced love, grief for a lost ideal, a desperate wish to feel inspired again.

Very inspired, you're mostly correct.

You are very wrong about your description of Goku though. Re-watch/read Dragon Ball up until the end of Z and you will see that Goku was never about being a invincible hero, he was about overcoming his limitations and growing with his failures and that sometimes he would get easily overpowered and would not look cool like this mythification of Goku you are imagining, when Goku fought Piccolo for the first time as a kid he was absolutely destroyed without much effort, when he fought Freeza if Freeza wasn't fooling around he would have died with a little more than a one hit KO but Freeza didn't take him seriously up until it was too late (SSJ), and with Cell if Cell wasn't interested in having fun with fights he would have bodied Goku extremely quick he even told Goku to eat a senzu so he could play with his food a bit more.

If you want to see a invincible version of Goku that never looks bad in battle I recommend for you Dragon Ball GT, Dragon Ball Super and Super Dragon Ball Heroes. He will however act like a ret...mentally challenged person in the last two options.


"A man who turns failure into strength, who always gets back up, who trains harder, fights smarter, and never gives up. Even when he loses, it plants the seed of a comeback. That’s what gives people hope."

My point was never that Goku was invincible or never loses, but it was that Goku even when being served an L with extra beatdown sauce by Raditz or Piccolo or TaoPaiPai, it had meaning and was a catalyst for future growth. He was the main character, but now it isn't so clear. We can't just trust that Goku will figure this one out. KaiOh-Sama is not going to train the time-stop weakness out of him.

Who exactly is the main character? Son Bra? Vegetto? Goku? Who is going to become better from having lost this tournament? Or do you think we are headed to a technical or clever victory over XXI? Something akin to using the Dragon Balls to wish for a Deus Ex Machina or a we hit the reset button so everyone goes home and travel is locked? Or worst of all, a reset so that the tournament never happened? This makes Goku's defeat a little more emotional and harder to take under these circumstances.

Yes, Goku did get hit over the head with the stupid stick like a Gatlin Gun, but he was always a bit stupid. His low intelligence has always been part of his character, even in Dragon Ball OG. He didn't know his age. He can't count. He could not tell men from women. He was supposed to be this uneducated naive hick who can fight. Bulma was the brains and beauty. Goku was the heart and muscle — and latent fighting genius. Yamcha was fodder to prove how strong the enemies Goku faced were. Goku was never a man of even average intelligence when it came to normal metrics of intelligence. The lack of intelligence has nothing to do with the sequel series nor is it a product of the sequel series. They may Flanderize it a little more, but it was always part of the character from even OG Dragon Ball.

"Why all the hate?" people ask when fans react strongly to a fanfic choice. The answer, ironically, is love.

To be angry, to feel betrayed, to lash out — these things only happen when someone cares. Deeply. A so-called "hater" is someone who once believed. They believed in the characters, the setting, the spirit of the story. They invested emotion, time, and often a piece of their own identity into that universe. When a new writer takes the reins of something beloved — even in fan fiction — it can feel risky. And when that new direction seems to violate the core of what people loved, it hurts.

This isn't new. A generation of kids cried when Optimus Prime died. Grown adults mourned when DC killed Superman — it made international news. Why? Because these aren’t just fictional characters. They are symbols. Ideals. Pieces of us.

So yes, when Goku is suddenly defeated in one shot — especially in a finale, especially by an ability he’s seen before — it’s not just a plot twist. It feels like a violation. Goku isn’t just a strong character. He’s a representation of perseverance, growth, and boundless optimism. A man who turns failure into strength, who always gets back up, who trains harder, fights smarter, and never gives up. Even when he loses, it plants the seed of a comeback. That’s what gives people hope.

But when he dies without a fight, with no clever counter, no lesson learned, and no arc ahead — when he’s not even the main character anymore — fans feel like they’ve lost more than just a match. They’ve lost the ideal. Goku becomes... ordinary. Beatable. Forgotten. And that stings. Because for many, Goku wasn’t just a character. He was the person they wanted to be. Strong. Joyful. Resilient. Now, that dream feels chipped away.

Sure, characters should evolve. Stories should grow. But not every story needs to be deconstructed. Not every hero needs to be made vulnerable, broken, or forgotten. Sometimes we need a place where heroes remain heroic. Where we can still believe in strength, goodness, and triumph.

That’s why fanfiction matters so much. It’s a space where the love for the source material can continue — safely, passionately, and authentically. But when that space feels like it's betraying the very core of what made it beloved, people lash out. It’s not because they don’t care. It’s because they do. Intensely.

Of course, hate expressed through personal attacks or harassment is wrong. Mods should act on that. But don’t confuse emotion with malice. That "hate-filled comment"? It’s proof someone cared enough to write it. They’re invested. That’s not always a bad thing. In fact, it’s often a sign that the story — and its characters — still matter.

So don’t be afraid of the "hate." See it for what it is: misplaced love, grief for a lost ideal, a desperate wish to feel inspired again.