Darius was saying: Tulot_Trouble was saying: newhinhin was saying: Shouldn't this King Picolo be strong enough to one hit all of them with ease?

Yes, but he's savoring their fear. He's the demon king after all.




Zeromus was saying: This is not our Raditz.We don't know if he can create artificial moon or not.We know that he will lose anyway. But if he transform we may got an actual fight.

It would not be an actual fight. This fusion should be at least nail's level at 42,000. A max power oozaru raditz would be 15,000, but he would not be at max power as making a power ball weakens the user.


Jubjub was saying: Hanky was saying: I do agree Oozaru Radditz would be more of a challenge for Piccolo, but in the same way that 2nd Form Freeza would be more of a challenge for Trunks than 1st Form Freeza. It's still a wash to the point of not being worth showing.

Someone finally gets it. I really don't understand why people expect raditz to stand even the tiniest bit of a chance, oozaru or not. Saiyan bias I guess.


Well shouldn't this Piccolo be stronger then freeza right now? nail stated if he fused with kami he could have handled freeza on his own without any problems.

Vash was saying: Kakata was saying: Silly Saiyans, there's nowhere to run, the best you could do is to go Kamikaze and destroy Earth with a KI Blast or something and hope that Piccolo dies in the process or something.

These low level Saiyans can’t destroy the earth even if they want to. The first confirmed planet-busting power level was Vegeta’s 18k.
Raditiz and the kids are way too low level

yeah im going to say bs on that one. roshi is 180 if memory serves and he was able to kill our moon. that is roughly 1/3 of the diameter of our planet. it doesn't take 18k to kill the earth. it wouldn't take nearly as much power.
1/4 actually, but same difference, pretty much. Yeah, Goku in the Piccolo Junior Saga could've destroyed the planet, or at least shaved off most of it. they've been planet busters, for a while.

Zeromus was saying: Kid Gohan had power level of 1300 and he wounded Raditz with single attack. Piccolo's second Makankosappo with power level of 1480 killed him in one hit. There is no way that he had power level of 1500. Daizenshuu has many bullshit power levels like Kid Goku with pw 10 (a little more than normal human) when he was already bullet proof and was able to lift a car.

Right on. Both manga and anime said Raditz was at 1,200.
Not sure where the 1,500 came from.
Also at that point, Raditiz was unable to hide his power level. So he was always at max.

ChiKleR was saying: Jubjub was saying: It's kind of crazy to think that Piccolo is as strong as he is. It REALLY is an instance of Vegito/Cell/Gotenks where the whole is worth so much more than the sum of its parts.

Dude literally went from Popo fodder to around first form Freeza.

Well, no. At most he went up to Neiru.

the Nameless Namekian is infinitely stronger than nail

What did he mean by "Oh, eight-in-one"?

J.I.L was saying: BeGabi was saying: Idk how strong is the nameless namekian because Guru said that it could've beat Vegeta and Nappa when they came to earth.
To fuse just for Raditz seems like overkill.
What is this new information you present to us, now? Is it true?

Tulot_Trouble was saying: عمار was saying: Zefarg was saying: Yes and no tho. You can't really count Kami + Piccolo as a normal Namekian fusion, since they are merely becoming the Nameless Namekian once again. No lucky involved in it, at least from their side. Raditz and the crew on the other hand... :D
Isn't the Nameless Namekian consider to be so strong though? I believe even Guru was shocked to hear that he was killed by a saiyan, and thought the saiyan that killed him was a super saiyan.

At the very least the nameless namekian should be able to slap nail silly who sits at a very respectable (at the time) power level of 42,000. Nail is far above literally every base form saiyan on vegeta except that traveling brocoli guy.

In my opinion it wouldn't be a stretch to say they're about the same as first form frieza's 500ish thousand.

Felbuod was saying: "That's right Mr. Popo. Call Spike the Devil Man"

Unironically yes.
That seems stupid. The nameless namekian is just kami before he expelled out DKP from his body. I'd put this fused full power warrior at no stronger then Nappa. So if piccolo fuses with Kami, inluding getting his youth back. His power-level at max I believe should be around sayain saga vegeta level. And by the time of DBM tounnament, he's as powerful as android saga fused piccolo because of training through the decades.

Guru believes only a Super Saiyan could have killed Kami pre-DPK expulsion, so you'd have to take it up with Toriyama and his ridiculous power creep.

Mr Quill was saying: DrewSaga was saying: Pretty sure Kami's power level is low 300s. Goku and Piccolo Jr are below 400 during the 23rd Martial Arts tournament, they only surpassed 400 after a few years of training. Mr. Popo is most likely in the upper 200s (like 275 or higher but under 300) while Goku (Ultra Divine Water) is around 260 and King Piccolo prime is around 235. These are most likely the numbers or number range we are dealing with. Yeah the guides are BS, Mr Popo is nowhere near 1030 and Ox King sure as hell nowhere near 900 (more like 90).

Also dang, Kami went straight for Reep after Cherrio was obliterated (If I was him I would have killed Reep first lol). I wonder how strong Reep is. For him to trash talk Raditz I am surprised he isn't on the same level as Raditz and instead is getting his ass handed to him by Kami. Guess Reep is about as powerful as King Piccolo probably.


Goku and Piccolo Jr are definitely below 400 during the 23rd Martial Arts Tournament, that's kinda obvious. They're like in the mid 200s at best. The reason people say Mr. Popo's powerlevel is high is because he trained Goku, therefore by logical reason he should be somewhat stronger, maybe not 1030, 500 makes more sense. The point is to give the teacher stronger until the student is able to surpass him, I think realistically though Mr. Popo is like 300.

Kami is definitely in the low 300s to high 200s, it would make sense considering his counterpart Demon King was only approx 180. But everyone likes to think him higher for fanservice reasons.

Popo being around 300 seems reasonable given how easily he can overpower Goku when Goku first met him. But I am pretty sure Goku (Ultra Divine Water) is mid-200s so how can Goku and Piccolo Jr be mid-200s? I would put Goku at 340-360 (no weights), Piccolo Jr at 310-330 and Kami is around 300-310.

You got the numbers a bit low I think given that King Piccolo was pretty much once considered a monster of epic proportions and was considered flat-out unbeatable until Goku drank the water and by the 23rd Tournament even Tien and Krillin is stronger than King Piccolo was. Tien effortlessly beat a buffed up Tao and held his own against a weighted Goku and Krillin held his own against a weighted Piccolo though I am not sure now because Krillin was only at 204 in early DBz, did he get weaker? Clearly there has been a large power creep there, much like how Tien, Krillin, Yamcha and Piccolo after a year of training in the Saiyan Saga could probably match if not beat Raditz.

King Piccolo was around upper 100s in his old body before he became young again but he was already more than a match for Tien and Roshi (who are likely mid-100s) and his henchmen Tambourine killed Krillin (low-100s?). Dragon Ball is also known for having students surpass the master. Like Krillin, Tien, Yamcha and Chaotzu surpassing Roshi's level and Korin's level (I doubt Chaotzu surpassed Korin though given how easy he lost to Cyborg Tao) so I am pretty sure Goku is stronger than Kami and Popo at the time of the 23rd Martial Arts Tournament and Piccolo Jr is also stronger. That reminds me I wonder where would Korin fit in all of this, surely he isn't stronger than King Piccolo even when Piccolo was "old and weak".

Good thinking for him to smite one of them before they have a chance to hang up on him.

Just how strong IS Kami, anyway? He should be no more powerful than Picollo at the 23rd tournament, could he do this too?

Piccolo with Nail could fight 2nd Form Freeza, who may have only had 2000 to 3500 PL if a namekian can do that under 10x gravity for 6 days and Nail at what 42.000? went to 10 million, so maybe he will be at 1st form Freeza maybe? or at least a 100.000 or a couple? still stronger then a non super sayain who is not Bardock and Brolly at this point.

Not sure how to feel about that. Visually, absolutely stunning. Setup, writing-wise? What even is this? "Kaioken maximum, but more!" Like, what?

Durra was saying: If Toriyama had actually kept numerical power levels after Frieza, it would in fact likely reduce these types of occurrences, not make them worse. Toriyama does not think hard about logical power differences, so when he writes stuff like Kid Buu vs Vegeta, he's almost certainly going "well, I'd be badass if Vegeta, even in base, keeps going despite Kid Buu beating him down. If, however, he had numbers written down (whether in the story or just his personal notes), he might go something like (made up numbers, not trying to argue these are what they were) "huh, Base Vegeta is at 20 million and Kid Buu is at 5 billion. That doesn't really make any sense, maybe I should do something else instead".

Keeping the numbers were too limiting and were discarded to keep things fluid rather that constrained...

Also Vegeta didn't do anything in base, after he was revived he tried to fight in base & just got beat up (as if being revived didn't restore his energy). The anime just did a weird thing with Vegeta being really resilient and that would've happened regardless of Toriyama keeping the numbers...because the anime always does stuff like this.

Kiggor was saying:
Füchsin was saying: Powerlevel numbers and multipliers were one of the worst things that ever happend to Dragonball. Toriyama was wise to abandon them and Salagir was wise to keep it that way.

i personally disagree. it helped keep things more consistent and have some way to actually scale things out.

I think it actually had the opposite effect. Just look at the thousands of meaningless powerlevel discussions where people throw ridiculously bloated numbers around and try to make them consistent with the story. And it's not like we were ever shown feats in the story that would correlate to those numbers and multipliers. For example, It never feels that ssj3 Goku is 400 times stronger than him in base judging only from what is shown. Or how does it make sense that base Vegeta can take a punch from a more than 400 times stronger Kidbuu without him getting turned to red dust in a single blow? It all does not add up in the end.

You always knew roughly how strong the characters were in relation to each other from what was shown in the story anyway, so imo they were unnecessary.

Durra was saying: Mister Doctor was saying: Dr Raichi was saying: Mr Quill was saying: Yeah who didn't see this coming, but the question is how did Gast knock Vegetto out of SS3? It certainly wasn't cause his power was higher, it had've to been some of the Namekian Powers he still was able to hold on to. I mean, right?



Dr Raichi was saying: Alright, so Ghast can block transformations.

Which means when he fights Bra he can force her to fight in base.

I don't care how good her techniques are, if Ghast is ssj3 level then Bra is toast.

So, next question, does she know the kaioken? Logicly she shouldn't, she was a ssj at age 6.
If Bra can win in BASE against a ssj3 level oponent, when Cold was stated to be stronger than her, and he was around perfect cell before suicide. Then I call bullshit.

But of course she's going to win somehow. She's going to win the entire tournament, after all.
Can't wait to see how Salagir writes her out of this.

And before people call me a Bra hater, do you serieusly believe she's going to lose to Ghast? Of course not. She'll win and face XXI in the 4th round. And then all hell will break loose.

So how is Bra going to defeat Ghast? Assuming he doesn't hold back and blocks her ssj transformations?

"against a ssj3 level opponent"

You do realize, SSJ3 is not a specific level, you could have for example Bardock from before he died to Frieza, being able to use ssj3, but he'd be NOWHERE near the strength of Frieza's 100% Power.

SS3 is merely a multiplier

It's not a specific level. Again, Goku SS3 u18, is nowhere near SS3 u16 Vegetto.

You can't say "an ss3 level fighter" that says absolutely nothing.

1 Bardock can't be a ssj3, he's not even strong enough to be a ssj2.
2 Vegito is a fusion, so is Bra,(a natural born one) You are comparing a normal saiyan to a fused one. False equivalency.
3 Yes it is a multiplier, but since your body needs to be strong enough to handle the transformation,"levels" exist. In DBM, except for fusions, a ssj2 is never going to be defeated by a ssj1. The power gap is just too big.
4 Long ago Salagir said his multipliers where x50 x500 x5000.

5 Bra is weaker than Cold, Cold is perfect cell level before suicide, so slightly stronger than fpssj. Bra base=fpssj. Gast traded blows with ssj3 Vegita. So Bra can't do shit to Ghast in base form.

Unless you think Goku from cell games would win against buu saga Goku.



I think you're missing his point. Bardock being able to transform into a SSJ3 wasn't his point(we know he's not capable of that), he was just using Bardock as an EXAMPLE, a word he even used, to show just because you're SSJ3 level doesn't necessarily mean you're stronger than someone at the SSJ2 level. Bra even at SSJ2 could be able to handle a "SSJ3 Level" Gast, because her power is that much greater.
No, you're missing the point. The fandom in general uses "SSJ3 level" to refer to characters around as strong as SSJ3 Goku in the Buu saga, just like they use "SSJ2 level" to refer to characters around as strong as SSJ2 Gohan in the Cell saga. It's a specific label, not a description claiming everyone at a certain SSJ stage is the same strength.

SSJ3 Vegito is not SSJ3 level, and nor would SSJ3 Bardock be. In comparison, Gast IS SSJ3 level since he was fighting roughly on par with SSJ3 Vegeta, who we have no reason to believe is a big outlier because he just recently achieved the form and isn't anything abnormal like a fusion.


I'm not missing anyone's point lol Not sure how you came to that conclusion. It's obvious I dont believe everyone at the SSJ level is the same strength. I was simply stating that just because Bardock can't go SSJ3, it doesn't disprove that guys point, since he was just using Bardock as an example.

Really not sure what you're on about... Also I think you're wrong anyways, because SSJ3 level should mean just that. It doesn't mean you're around "SSJ3 Goku's level". It simply means you are at the SSJ3 level. Makes no sense to say that anyone at SSJ3 level means they're at around SSJ3 Goku's level.

Dr Raichi was saying: Mr Quill was saying: Yeah who didn't see this coming, but the question is how did Gast knock Vegetto out of SS3? It certainly wasn't cause his power was higher, it had've to been some of the Namekian Powers he still was able to hold on to. I mean, right?



Dr Raichi was saying: Alright, so Ghast can block transformations.

Which means when he fights Bra he can force her to fight in base.

I don't care how good her techniques are, if Ghast is ssj3 level then Bra is toast.

So, next question, does she know the kaioken? Logicly she shouldn't, she was a ssj at age 6.
If Bra can win in BASE against a ssj3 level oponent, when Cold was stated to be stronger than her, and he was around perfect cell before suicide. Then I call bullshit.

But of course she's going to win somehow. She's going to win the entire tournament, after all.
Can't wait to see how Salagir writes her out of this.

And before people call me a Bra hater, do you serieusly believe she's going to lose to Ghast? Of course not. She'll win and face XXI in the 4th round. And then all hell will break loose.

So how is Bra going to defeat Ghast? Assuming he doesn't hold back and blocks her ssj transformations?

"against a ssj3 level opponent"

You do realize, SSJ3 is not a specific level, you could have for example Bardock from before he died to Frieza, being able to use ssj3, but he'd be NOWHERE near the strength of Frieza's 100% Power.

SS3 is merely a multiplier

It's not a specific level. Again, Goku SS3 u18, is nowhere near SS3 u16 Vegetto.

You can't say "an ss3 level fighter" that says absolutely nothing.

1 Bardock can't be a ssj3, he's not even strong enough to be a ssj2.
2 Vegito is a fusion, so is Bra,(a natural born one) You are comparing a normal saiyan to a fused one. False equivalency.
3 Yes it is a multiplier, but since your body needs to be strong enough to handle the transformation,"levels" exist. In DBM, except for fusions, a ssj2 is never going to be defeated by a ssj1. The power gap is just too big.
4 Long ago Salagir said his multipliers where x50 x500 x5000.

5 Bra is weaker than Cold, Cold is perfect cell level before suicide, so slightly stronger than fpssj. Bra base=fpssj. Gast traded blows with ssj3 Vegita. So Bra can't do shit to Ghast in base form.

Unless you think Goku from cell games would win against buu saga Goku.



I think you're missing his point. Bardock being able to transform into a SSJ3 wasn't his point(we know he's not capable of that), he was just using Bardock as an EXAMPLE, a word he even used, to show just because you're SSJ3 level doesn't necessarily mean you're stronger than someone at the SSJ2 level. Bra even at SSJ2 could be able to handle a "SSJ3 Level" Gast, because her power is that much greater.

Gohan salutes the kamehameha wave. Ironically he is not as impressed as the other two (but I think that's a given). I wonder if Vegeta somehow dodged that or if Goku nailed him.

i still don't get it. stronger than us he said.
but vegeta should be stronger than all the minions right? correct me if i'm wrong, but the goku we see in the lord slug movie is saiyan arc goku right? the one with 8k power level? who one shots the minions? and right now slug is old and weak?
and also how strong is kakarrot right now?