Whether or not Bra is "morally gray" is not an issue. The fact the comic WANTS the audience to see her character one way but we somehow see it another (and this seems
somewhat universal now) is the mark of failure.

However, it has now gone from "what if such and such fought" to "universe 16 is the cool universe people"
This is the fourth chapter in a row with Bra as the main focus, and we can add a double special about Bra to that too. So 6 chapters were Bra is the focus.

UMW was saying:
XisBack listed tons of stuff he admitted doesn't nearly compare to what Bra did here to construct some inconsistency in Vegetto's character while ignoring the biggest foreshadow of his reaction again and again.

It doesn't, indeed.
Here Vegeth should have outright killed her, for what she did and because she is a clear menace to the existence of, like, everyone.
But that's not the point of this page.
He is not shown angered for that, now. He is shown angered from her resistance and disrespect. Like an abusive dad would. Oh, poor Bra, you look really more sympathetic now.

Francamente non so come si possa empatizzare per Bra a questo punto... voglio dire, è talmente Mery Sue che dopo aver fatto una strage monopolizzando un'intero arco narrativo a discapito di personaggi "originali" di DB l'autore le ha pure concesso una redenzione "al volo".

No, non può cavarsela in questo modo e SI, se c'è una cosa che desiderlo vedere a questo punto è qualcuno che la corca male di mazzate, senza pietà.

If Xisback did do that first, then I honestly apologize. I must have missed his comment. I was in the wrong here, and I'm sorry.

@XisBack

You stopped crying and reread Vegettos reaction after his defeat yet? Or are you still too mad for that? You still seem mighty salty.

pointing out you are making stuff up and are getting mad to the point of insulting the creator of this manga is still not crying or salt.

XisBack used the word crying first, and please tell me how this:

>For sure wasting a canon character to create a freudian excuse for a creator's pet is not beneath us, here ad DBM

is somehow an argument to be adressed and not mad salt. It's also pretty rude I would say, if you are honestly concerned with that.

@XisBack
>Is that false? No.
>So you don't come crying when a simple truth is stated

Flat out making stuff up to make a point because a character triggers you so much is not truth, pointing that out is not crying. Your tantrum looks pretty much like crying tho.

>One wonders why he didn't beat the shit out of her for calling him a loser (altogether with Gotenks) when the fake Broly appeared.
>One wonders why he didn't react like that when she hit him in space (sure, she helped him, but he is an abusive father easily angered, remember?)
>One wonders why he didn't react like that when she disobeyed him about Zangya, welcoming her with a nice "How you dared to fail me, you little shit?" and >beating her, and instead complimented her.
>One wonders why he kept smiling when Bra didn't thank him for saving her from Ginyu, instead of beating the shit out of the ungrateful brat.

Because that compares in any way to what Bra did here? come on...

>Probably there are more things one might wonder about (like, where the hell this trait should come for, according to the author).

Maybe reread the manga...

>For sure wasting a canon character to create a freudian excuse for a creator's pet is not beneath us, here ad DBM

Man, so much salt.

Ashanark was saying: Consider: we still have not seen U16 Pan's reaction to U16 Gohan being bisected by Bra. Why? Because if Pan actually asked Bra why she did that, or even reacted to it, that would make Bra look bad. There is no reason not to see this scene, yet instead, we've skipped over it. Why?

Why? Because U16 Pan is dead. wtf are you on about?

oH noOo!!1!11! Ke kAtTivo veGeT, è ProPRio un pEsSimo paDre!!1!1!1!

Ultimamente con ogni pagina in cui fanno di tutto nel disperato tentativo di convincerci che Bra è la vittima in tutto questo, mi sembra di sentire Salagir che mi urla nell'orecchio "Allora?? Vi dispiace per Bra?? State empatizzando finalmente?? Eh?? Eh?? Empatizza! Perché non empatizzi??"

e addirittura anzichè correre fra le braccia del padre sconvolta, dopo che le è sparito per tutto il tempo senza nemmeno sapere che fine avesse fatto, e per quanto ne sapeva poteva essere pure morto, non ha una MINIMA REAZIONE? E anzi, come se non bastasse parla pure come una super donna con in mano la situazione "abbiamo vinto" ("abbiamo...?) Madonna, che ca*ata. Devo dire che detesto quando non si approfondiscono certi dettagli, ma qui è stato proprio un ribaltamento inguardabile e tremendamente fastidioso. Altra cosa, Pan che piange senza nemmeno accertarsi che il padre sia morto (!) poi il fatto di non mostrare la reazione dell'altra Pan dopo che le hanno sbattuto avanti agli occhi la fine cruenta del padre, che manco in un horror...boh...non so dove vogliono andare a parare ma mi rimane sempre quella sensazione di trascuratezza

XisBack was saying: MUI was saying: Why do people keep comparing Bra to Vegeta? Thats just Ridicilous. Vegeta was raised with a terrible life. His race including his father were killed in a genocide when he was a kid. He was a slave of a evil emperor. He was abused, was forced to take over planets. He was punished for his actions. He was humiliated by Goku, Gohan, Krillin, Zarbon, Recoome and Android 18. He was killed by Frieza. He was humiliated when he let Cell absorb android 18. He killed some innocent people when he got majined, but he sacrificed himself in the end just to try to kill Buu.

Even though he had a terrible life, Vegeta redeemed and became a good guy.

Bra on the other had good people around her, she never witnissed how evil villians attacked the earth and her friends. She was never abused. She had never money problems since her mom is one of the richest people of the world. She had a fusion dad of Goku and Vegeta around her, she was trained and raised by Gohan. Goten and Trunks were there for her. Pan was there for her. And she was STILL evil. Vegeta had atleast a reason to be in his past.

Even after all of this she is a terrible person. Vegeta was atleast puninshed multiply times for his actions in his past. What punishment did Bra ever receive for her evil actions? She was never punished. So really stop to compare her with Vegeta.

Now that people see a crying teenager girl they say Vegetto is terrible for hurting her. People that say that are really crazy. Did they just forget how she mass murdered innocent people? How she sliced her own half brother in half? How she let Piccolo explode until nothing of him was left besides some pieces? How she was enjoying doing all of this?

She deserves to not only get that kick. She deserves to die for her actions. And dont say "she was controlled by Babidi". She already destroyed billions of innocent people when she was 12 even though she was not controlled. She is evil and she needs a punishment for her actions.

And amen to this, as well.

Yes. Probably another reason Bra tickles a lot of people (me being in the first row) in the wrong way it is because she is written as the epitome of "First world problems complaining alpha bitch".
Specially when compared to canon DB characters.
She is, personality-wise, way worse than Frieza: she has the same inner desires and tendencies; she was raised having everything she could hope for, being it riches or power; but Frieza was educated to be a tyrant in a race of tyrants, where she was educated to be good and with love by people who were good and loving. Yet here we are.

(And yet Salagir insists to make her look the victim, which is even more annoying).

It's like watching a conversation where the alpha bitch blames the world for being a terrible place because she got a new Porche when she wanted a new Ferrari, and when people who worked hard everyday point out there are and were some persons waaay unluckier than her, someone (the author) stands by her side. Ugh!

Amen. I agree with everything you have said as well as I agree with everything Ashanark said. But be careful, you never know Salagir will come out ready to play the card "But Vegeta is worse than Bra and you love him. Why do you love Vegeta and not Bra? Obviously I don't want you to love Bra, I didn't do it for that but I complain if she is not loved like Vegeta :D "

Why do people keep comparing Bra to Vegeta? Thats just Ridicilous. Vegeta was raised with a terrible life. His race including his father were killed in a genocide when he was a kid. He was a slave of a evil emperor. He was abused, was forced to take over planets. He was punished for his actions. He was humiliated by Goku, Gohan, Krillin, Zarbon, Recoome and Android 18. He was killed by Frieza. He was humiliated when he let Cell absorb android 18. He killed some innocent people when he got majined, but he sacrificed himself in the end just to try to kill Buu.

Even though he had a terrible life, Vegeta redeemed and became a good guy.

Bra on the other had good people around her, she never witnissed how evil villians attacked the earth and her friends. She was never abused. She had never money problems since her mom is one of the richest people of the world. She had a fusion dad of Goku and Vegeta around her, she was trained and raised by Gohan. Goten and Trunks were there for her. Pan was there for her. And she was STILL evil. Vegeta had atleast a reason to be in his past.

Even after all of this she is a terrible person. Vegeta was atleast puninshed multiply times for his actions in his past. What punishment did Bra ever receive for her evil actions? She was never punished. So really stop to compare her with Vegeta.

Now that people see a crying teenager girl they say Vegetto is terrible for hurting her. People that say that are really crazy. Did they just forget how she mass murdered innocent people? How she sliced her own half brother in half? How she let Piccolo explode until nothing of him was left besides some pieces? How she was enjoying doing all of this?

She deserves to not only get that kick. She deserves to die for her actions. And dont say "she was controlled by Babidi". She already destroyed billions of innocent people when she was 12 even though she was not controlled. She is evil and she needs a punishment for her actions.

It seems pretty in character to me honestly. Vegito's lack of self control has been dangled in front of us as early as XXI. We also know that he's been paranoid about his daughter endangering the universe he promised to the Kaioshins that he would protect for years. Finding out that she was brainwashed into trigger happy slaughter would easily send him over the edge.

Do it for her Vegetto

Consider: we still have not seen U16 Pan's reaction to U16 Gohan being bisected by Bra. Why? Because if Pan actually asked Bra why she did that, or even reacted to it, that would make Bra look bad. There is no reason not to see this scene, yet instead, we've skipped over it. Why?

Instead, we have jumped straight to Vegito--as in-character as it is for him--kicking Bra. It's the exact same shindig as the flashback: an adult authority figure on both feet contrasted with a crying young girl on the ground and defenseless. (Note the goshdarn panel of her big, innocent, teary eyes!) Except now he's physically hurting her.

Vegito is not being portrayed as in the right here, or even justified in his anger.

If Vegito isn't in the right, then Bra is undeserving of this treatment, and therefore she is in the right.

Bra murdered all these people and she is in the right.

This is literally the exact worst possible outcome of this rebellion: Bra turns evil, kills everyone, breaks the seal by herself, apologizes, then immediately has Vegito not only not accept her apology, but physically abuse her so we feel sorry for her. Sigh.

>So Gohan can hit Bra who' stronger than buuhan, logic follows he can also hit buuhan. Which doesn't really make sense since Buuhan has his own Gohan, but following your logic this is the conclusion we arrive at.
Gohan, on his own, would not be able to handle Buuhan at all. He might be able to survive for a bit, but the fight would basically follow the Buutenks vs Gohan fight. Do I think Gohan would be able to hit a distracted, unsuspecting Buuhan level fighter with what is functionally an instant ki punch? Yes.

From a logical standpoint, obviously the one who drugged the other person.
If you're feeling so unwell that you can't drive properly anymore, you're not always gonna think rationally. Especially if you think it's just a fever/cold while you're actually passing out.

You could put it like this, regardless of the actions of the drugged driver, would the accident have taken place had that person not been drugged? No. Ergo, it's the fault of the one who drugged them.

>Xisback

Mhh...no non penso andrebbe così.
Bra 18 ha comunque assistito ad alcune malefatte di Bra 16,ed è chiaro che non può non parlarne.Lei è una di quelle che dicono ciò che pensano.
E poi quando riporteranno in vita Gohan 16 non credo che egli dirà che è colpa di Cell,perché in questo caso è quasi innocente,e io non ce lo vedo Gohan 16 a fare il bugiardo.

a me non convince per niente come teoria. Come potrebbero giustificare tutti quei morti con bra16 dalla loro parte? Non avrebbe senso

How is this still a question? Her Majin mark disappeared because she broke the spell. Her mind is no longer affected by Babidi's magic. Vegeta never broke the spell, he was just using his willpower to focus on his own goals and ignore Babidi's orders.

TBH, I'm just tired of U16. I don't really like Vegito OR Bra, and I think the story would've greatly improved without them.

Vegito on the other hand, is responsible. He's strong enough to physically endure Bra's tantrums, and he is Goku and Vegeta combined, so in theory he should have 2X the experience with dealing with saiyan kids. Plus, unlike Bulma, Vegito understands ki control and saiyan instincts and all that, which is a big part of what Bra needs to control. Parent wise, Bulma literally cannot do anything to tame Bra or she will die. Vegito is the only person who can (He even admitted so at the end of the U16 special).

And someone made a good point earlier about the brain not being fully developed until age 25. Vegito is responsible for everything Bra did pre-torunament. And Vegito's way of fixing problems was:

— At Bra's birth, Vegito treated her world-shattering a power as a joke, and said "oh yay I beat Broly lol!"

— When Bra almost destroyed the planet, Vegito tried to teach her a meaningful lesson, but got frustrated and walked away literally hours later the same day. (let that one sink in for a second. Your kid almost blows up the planet, and you give up trying to help her like 3 hours later)

— After Gohan patches up the situation, Vegito turns the learning experience into "Oh hey go have a joke match against Gotenks, all fixed lol!"

— Sends a ~13 year old Bra to fight space mobsters who play dirty.

— Vegito threatened to kill a 13 year old, to her face.

Vegito is responsible parent-wise, and has made bad parental choices long before the tournament even began. I would give more merit to arguments that say she's responsible for her tournament actions, since she's probably an adult now (My guess is she used the Room of Spirit and Time, so her current age is 18+ now anyways). But either way, the damage was done a long time ago by Vegito; The signs were there and he could have prevented it, but he gave up almost instantly : (

Edit: Wait! I just realized something!
Bra was born with power that drives her mad, people in the story are constantly giving her underserved praise, and fans are always trying to excuse every bad actions she does.
She's an UCHIHA!

XisBack was saying: At this point I don't remember anymore what was the reason for Babidi to start this revolt.

He had everything to lose (he didn't respect the rules, so now the other people can't be blamed if they don't respect the rules either and kill him definitely, freeing his universe from his dictatorship) and nothing to gain.

1 Ego. In his own universe, he killed the last of the kais, here they are telling him what to do. Him. The great wizard Babidi. He couldn't let that slide.

2 He did have to gain, quite a lot actually. He was surrounded by the most powerfull beings in existence, and many of them had an impure heart. I'd imagine having powerfull followers like that would be a breath of fresh air after having to deal with majin Buu's antics for 20 years. Who knows? If he was really lucky (Cell) he could rid himself of majin buu and have some better top enforcer enforcing his will.

3 He's a sadist. Causing pain and destructtion and spreading fear is his way of jerking off.

@Gridlock
The Bulma thing bugs me, too. She's Bra's mother, the person who would've been the biggest presence in Bra's earliest years. Yet despite all the time spent on Bra, we've never once seen the two even talk to each other. Bulma may as well not exist--if she'd died giving birth to Bra, there'd be no difference in the impact she's had in her daughter's life. There's an awful lot of potential with U16 Bulma which sadly has gone unused so far.

I mean, ultra instinct is supposed to be a state anyone can reach. It's not a transformation, it's a mindset. Albeit a very very very very very difficult one to reach. When Beerus uses ultra instinct, nothing changes in him. Don't give me the "he hasn't perfected it crap" even if he perfects it he'll stay the same.

But of course Saiyans hair just HAS to change.

I find it endelssly ironic that Frieza chose to mock ssj by intentionally turning his new form golden, only to discover that Goku and Vegeta's hair can also turn red, blue, bluer, purple and white.

It's ridiculous.

Not to mention future trunks hair suddenly becoming blue, even in flashbacks when he was a kid, yet instead of rectonning his hair, his present self retains his purple hair.

They aren't even trying anymore. People will eat it all up anyway.


Hell Vegeta even acknowledges the ridiculousness to Caba when he turns blue "this is the latest form", like, I'm sure our hair will change a bunch of times after this, but right now, blue hair is where the cool kids are seated.

Only to then make his hair bluer when "cooler kid" Goku goes to the white hair table.

This whole conversation reminds me of a parody by Skar where Yamcha was "trained" by letting Goku beat the shit out of him for 3 Years to prepare for the Androids and apparently Goku unlocked SSJ3 by then and Yamcha was also at that level and said he could take care of the Androids himself, as well as Cell, Dabura and Buu. It was a nod to DBS's absurdity of how Frieza and Tagoma got so strong because Frieza spent his time beating the shit out of Tagoma for 4 months and somehow they are crazy strong compared to where they were. It was really a big plot device to keep Frieza a relevant villain (honestly overrated really, he was a standard intergalactic tyrant with crazy power, a bit cliched really even though his saga was the highlight of Dragon Ball as a whole despite that and some awesome fight scenes came of it) otherwise Piccolo would have easily pulverized him (like in Salagir's mini-comic).

I also recall them using the db's to make them sort of like saiyans, but not quite to get the zenkai boost. They only didn't go full saiyan because they didn't want the rage of ssj despite that being shown in canon to be dropped in fpssj.

Then theres the point of certain things the author refuses to accept that were canon like yamcha being a cheater, which was stated in manga, and by toriyama as being the case, and while I don't like it myself it is the truth.

It was so long ago, I don't recall the specifics, but I don't mind a kaioken going to 40x or even beyond. It was other ridiculous things like yamcha being a weirdly over done training fanatic compared to his canon counterpart who gave up fighting, and it does get weird after a bit.

I'd have prefered it just made yamcha take on minor threats that the likes of earth would find tough like the vampire dude, and have him cake walk through it and find iner peace along the way. Now he's involved in stuff that involve the kaioshin, buu and whatever like he's important in THAT regard.

XisBack was saying: Dr Raichi was saying:
Ok, I've found a quite complete page, about its characters.
https://t...uMainCharacters

Fun fact: I made that page :D
If you want to add stuff go right ahead, I'm too busy these days.

An Earth Without Goku: https://t...arthWithoutGoku

But back to my original question, why do you think DBZ Elswhere jumped the shark?

So her back story is "famous dad. Mentally unstable."

So yeah, not really all that in depth.

The difference in bra vs all the other db villains is "quality writing" and thats subjective.

Personally, I like the content enough to the point I have no room to complain for the most part. Thats why I'm here.

DB elsewhere was cool at first then it jumped the shark and I noped outta there. It got dumb and I lost interest.

XisBack was saying:
Again people seem to think that liking Zen Buu, or Vegeta, means wanting them as best buddy, while it means mostly liking their role in the story.

The same is true for Bra though. I like her role in the story thus far, and not because I want to be her best buddy.

She's extremely powerful and wildly unbalanced, making her crazy dangerous. I wonder how Goku and friends are going to deal with her, especially after this outburst. Violence and punishment? Compassion and mentorship? Trickery? I have no idea. And that helps makes the story interesting to me.

Mister Doctor was saying: I gotta say, it is funny how much people like Zen Buu, despite how many people he's killed. I guess that goes to show it doesn't matter how many people a character kills, they just need to have a good/likeable personality and then it's all good.

"This just in, people like well written characters, with interesting backstory and personality, even if they're villians. And now, onto the weather."

Like, there's a reason, why Joker exists for almost 80 years now, and people still want to see more stories with him. Because he's a fascinating character. Bra managed to get tiresome and boring after less than 5.

L'utente Ashanark che è un mod sia qui sia sul forum se non sbaglio, è partito in quarta e sta mettendo a nudo tutti i giochetti per tentare di far apprezzare Bra al lettore.
Han tirato fuori la copertina, con Vegeth "cattivo" e Goku che dovrebbe fare da garante per Bra, inducendoci a scusarla, ha tirato fuori quel che hai postato, il tentativo di disegnarla come un povero cucciolo indifeso con gli occhi che tra un po gli escono dai lineamenti del viso. Mi pare avesse anche lui tirato fuori la storia del Vegeth disegnato come figura intimidatoria, nei confronti di lei,disegnata piccola e per terra, sempre per scusarla (lo avevamo notato in tanti)

Letta e la trovo oro colato. Comunque ho letto ogni tuo intervento nella sezione inglese, li condivido tutti per affinità di pensiero in merito come quelli di Ashanark

Well, that's that. I'm glad U4 Buu is so consistently great.

So, per Word of God as recent as last page, we are not supposed to like Bra. With that in mind I still can't get over how hilariously over-the-top DBM went with making Bra look innocent last page. Her eyes are like 20x bigger XD

Imagine if Toriyama had handled redemptions the same way DBM did…

Well, that's that. I'm glad U4 Buu is so consistently great.

So, per Word of God as recent as last page, we are not supposed to like Bra. With that in mind I still can't get over how hilariously over-the-top DBM went with making Bra look innocent last page. Her eyes are like 20x bigger XD

Imagine if Toriyama had handled redemptions the same way DBM did…

This is your world and you're the only one who can decide where it goes.

Ma perché nessuno si ricorda che se sei sotto l'effetto del Majin non sei in grado di controllarti?

Solo Vegeta e Cell ci sono riusciti ma sono di tutto un altro spessore mi pare ovvio...
Bra non sa controllarsi. Non è una Mary Sue, come dite, perché ha dei difetti (pure troppi), è scritta per essere odiosa e ci siamo pure cascati tutti

Quindi secondo il mio umile parere Bra ha colpe fino ad un certo punto, la sua colpa è quella di non aver cancellato la malvagità dal suo cuore e di non rendersi conto di avere un problema serio: il non sapersi controllare appunto.

seanpiece was saying: I love reading comment after comment about how Bra can never be forgiven because she's a murderer, written by people who undoubtedly love Vegeta.
Yuuup.

Turbocharger
A potential alternative is that she did want to kill them but then immediately regretted it later... Which, definitely wouldn't be my favorite way to go about it, and would probably cause her to lose the sympathy I do have for her (and as I stated in an earlier comment, I don't even think she's that sympathetic at the moment) but is theoretically possible.

Especially cell. Cell never changed and continued to be be a killer. Why he has fan boys is beyond me.

Come to think of it, even Goku killed his adopted grandfather..

XisBack was saying: Thatboi was saying:
People forgave Vegeta because not only were the people he killed were not important(he also didn’t know them)Vegeta also blew himself up fighting buu thinking he wouldn’t be able to come to life

Exactly, specially the last point: he was a perfect case of "Death equals redemption".

So, Bra, here you go: find yourself a noble cause, die an irreversible death knowing you'll go to hell and your soul will be "washed up", go out with a smile knowing you're doing, for once, a selfless act, and you'll be remembered like the villainous bitch who redeemed herself.

Possibly do that in a spin-off or off page, so we won't see another couple of chapters about you. kthx.

The difference is that everything that Vegeta did was his choice. He wasn't brainwashed, or unable to control his power, and he wasn't even always forced to do the stuff that he did because he went to Namek and Earth on his own accord. Even his actions as Majin Vegeta were a result of him deliberately accepting Babidi's help, and then immediately telling Babidi to screw off the moment Babidi told him to fight someone not named Goku. Vegeta's reasoning for accepting Babidi's help was also fundamentally hypocritical, basically throwing away his pride while somehow thinking that he was regaining it, and somehow deluding himself into thinking that beating Goku with a power up would prove anything.

Not hating on Vegeta btw, he's an excellent character, but he is far worse than Bra for the majority of DBZ.

If it turns out that Bra being mind controlled or unable to control her power is just an elaborate act, then she's worse than Vegeta. Until that hypothetical plot twist comes, everything she's done that's punishable by death was not an incident that she was (completely) responsible for, therefore dying just to redeem herself is too extreme (although it would certainly do the trick for sure).

And honestly, if Vegeta's acts were against his will, he wouldn't have "needed" to die either.

The issue with Bra is that forgiving her disrespects the people she's killed, while punishing her disregards her lack of free will do during these moments. It's like sentencing Goku to death for killing Grandpa Gohan in a form he has no control over or even knowledge of at the time it happened.

Really the safest judgement to make would probably be to blame the events of the recent Majin Bra massacre on Babidi while criticising Bra for giving into her darker instincts and pointing out that her weakness caused all of this to happen.

People forgave Vegeta because not only were the people he killed were not important(he also didn’t know them)Vegeta also blew himself up fighting buu thinking he wouldn’t be able to come to life

Hmmm... After the longest break between main chapters ever in DBM history, we get a sobbing Bra front-and-center, sympathetic Goku, and angry Vegito...

Yep, a blank check forgiveness is coming.

Because really, if Vegito goes off on Bra, who are we meant to side with: the sobbing, bleeding girl, or the larger, stronger, abusive adult authority figure? If Goku feels pity for Bra, doesn't that mean we, the readers, should feel pity for Bra? Are we guessing that if Goku is sympathetic to Bra and Vegito isn't, that we're really supposed to take Vegito's side over Goku's?

Whatever punishment Bra receives (if any) will be portrayed as unnecessary and too harsh, deflecting any blame to Vegito. Salagir will also probably get it over with quickly, since this whole arc was filler. (We can see from Asura's Twitch channel that everyone gets resurrected.) One angry dad and we'll all forget Bra just gleefully murdered a bunch of innocent people, because It's Not Bra's Fault, Really--Trust Me On This. If anything, it's the good guys' fault for being too worthless to stop her!

Man, I'm tired of U16.

Hey, at least the next two tournament fights are U18!

GOTEN è ANCORA VIVO?!?
Che Vegeth non fosse il padre dell'anno lo sapevamo tutti (d'altronde è la fusione di Goku e Vegeta, come poteva esserlo?), ma questo non può giustificare il comportamento di Bra che per me al momento resta un personaggio fortemente negativo. Dalle sue prime reazioni (può darsi che dopo verrò smentito ma per ora è così) sembra che più che essersi pentita si sia resa conto che quando Vegeth arriverà si incazzerà parecchio e forse la ucciderà. E aggiungo una provocazione: avrebbe effettivamente torto? sarebbe giusto risparmiare quello che di fatto è un villain solo perché è la figlia, quando praticamente tutti i villain nella storia di Dragon Ball vengono uccisi? Non sarebbe come se un padre poliziotto coprisse il figlio serial killer? è vero Bra era controllata da Babidy, ma abbiamo visto ormai diverse volte come non sia poi così difficile resistere alla volontà del mago, Vegeta e Cell ne sono fulgidi esempi...

Beh insomma dopo tutto quello che è successo,ciò che ha fatto e in una maniera così anticlimatica no non fa provare tutta questa pietà.

XisBack was saying: This forum needs a like button.

DBM used to have a like button system in the past, but it was removed because users kept abusing the function, as far as I can remember.

Alright, fine. Imagine Vegeta fires that blast at Gohan again, Gohan easily blocks it, then murders Vegeta. What then? Hmm? You think Bulma, Trunks, and Bra are going to treat that like "shit happens? Let's just get the Dragon Balls, oh wait, Vegeta's already been brought back, let's go to Namek! Hey namekians, my son just murdered vegeta, can you bring him back to life?

Or do we leave him dead? Well, I'm sure family gatherings won't be awkward from here on out, Bulma, Trunks and Bra will totally understand Gohan killing their father/husband. Videl will totally understand too, that her husband just murdered someone. And Pan, you just saw her having flashbacks from her interactions with Vegeta huh? Looks like they have a good relationship, I'm sure her father killing Vegeta in front of her won't traumatize her. And what a wonderfull leson to teach your 4 year old daughter, It's okay to kill people sweetie, Daddy was very angry, so it's all good!

And for those who don't get it, I understand Gohan is angry, I understand him having words with Vegeta, but saying he'll kill him is over the line and out of character for Gohan.

XisBack was saying: But, even if he wanted to be extra prudent, I think that, knowing Vegeta, he could wait a better moment, for example when they were alone to say that.

Sounds like you don't know Vegeta at all but hey, thanks for playing.

A couple of years ago, I would agree with you. And it also sounds like a preferable concept. Nonetheless, the comic itself continues to prove it worng, or at least doesn't agree with this idea.

And I guess if uub is there and there still at ssj3 (even though goku is rocking the long belt like in super) then this after the epilogue episode and could still be a side story before gt. After the tourney the bird men wish everyone home and to forget the insanity that took place
Mystic / Ultimate Gohan in DBZ is a whole tier stronger than SSJ3 (either Goku and Gotenks). I think you must confuse details when expecting something else. After Elder Kaioshin's ritual was completed, Gohan achieved the power of his full potential like a videogame cheat-code. DBM developed that thought further. Bothe Gohans in DBM are identical in power despite U16 occasionally joining Vegetto and Son Bra with their training or missions, while U18 does nothing in this regard. Sorry to be the one to break it to all the people wishing Mystic in DBM would have been the same as in GT or DBS, but it isn't. Unless some major plottwist with XXI, the U1 Kaioshins or Zen Buu come along, DBM Gohan has always/permantent the power he possessed in the fight against Super Buu, regardless of whether he tries to improve or slacks off.
(In the DBM continuity, Mystic Gohan has the same power in the Buu Arc, EoZ, the U16/U18 specials, and the DBM tournament)

È stato riportato un quote di Salagir, qualche pagina fa, nella sezione inglese, risalente forse a un milione di anni fa, dove diceva chiaramente che Gohan era insuperabile per Goku e Vegeta: era il bambino prodigio, era al massimo e anche se Goku e Vegeta raggiungono il loro massimo, resteranno inferiori al massimo di Gohan.

Anche lui sosteneva l'idea che il rituale non ti faccia arrivare al massimo disponibile in quel momento dal tuo corpo, ma ad una specie di massimo perfetto che tiene conto di come sarebbe il tuo corpo se ti fossi allenato in maniera perfetta, che ha tutti i problemi che ho spiegato sopra, ma è lui il creatore, quindi è così.

A meno che non abbia cambiato idea come su molte altre cose.

Io da Salagir ho capito questo

— Nel romanzo di Vegeth, la fusione chiede a Gohan di trasformarsi. Gohan gli spiega che lui non può farlo, in quanto in realtà già starebbe usando il suo Ssj3, espressa nella forma magica del Mystic

— il Ssj3 nel databook viene definito come la forma che fa emergere tutto il potenziale Saiyan. Se prendiamo i numeri per corretti, 400 volte la loro base è il loro limite massimo

— Il mystic ti fa raggiungere il tuo limite e OLTRE. Potrebbe essere, teorizzando nella logica di DBM,che l'oltre Ssj3 sia dato dal fatto che il ki massiccio per mantenere la forma viene convertito in ki ad uso personale. Tradotto. Mystic Gohan è un Ssj3 FP di natura magica.

— Scoprire la maestria del Ssj, ovvero imparare a ridurre quanto la base il consumo di ki, rende la forma di gran lunga superiore al normale Ssj. Di parecchio. Il 50% di Goku Ssj FP risulta superiore ai Dai Ni e San apparsi fin ora. Un ipotetico Ssj3 FP, ovvero dove la grossa perdita di ki viene tappata e usata dal guerriero, sarebbe di parecchio più potente di un Ssj3 basico. Da li si spiega Mystic Gohan superiore al tier del Ssj3 basico

Detto questo praticamente la forma lo tiene probabilmente ad un Ssj3 FP al momento del rituale eseguito e non scema ma non può incrementare perché già avrebbe raggiunto il massimo che un Saiyan può ambire

Goku e Vegeta finché non apprendono il Ssj3 in linea naturale e non magica, per Salatino, probabilmente non possono ancora superarlo. Questo cercando di capire il suo ragionamento

Comunque torno a ripetere: non è detto che in questo special Goku è più debole di Gohan.

Noto confusione nel potenziamento del vecchio kaioshin, il kaioshin non porta Gohan al limite del suo potenziale, MA OLTRE IL LIMITE, ne consegue che se il limite di Gohan è 100, con il rito arriva a 120

La logica di salagir è che Gohan in qualsiasi momento della storia, non ha bisogno di allenamenti fisici ne spirituali, in quanto il potere di gohan è sempre al massimo grazie al rito

Questo livello non cambia con l'allenamento, perché il rituale lo "sovrascrive": portandomi al massimo del potenziale è come se, istantaneamente e retroattivamente, io già mi fossi allenato fino ad ottenere il massimo delle mie capacità.

Mentre invece ci sta che il livello cambi con l'età, raggiungendo prima o poi l'apice e poi scendendo un po' con la vecchiaia. Ma proprio per la natura magica del tutto secondo me dire "se non si allena lo perde" non ha senso, perché il potenziale non cambia con l'allenamento, allenandosi cambia il livello effettivo non quello massimo raggiungibile.

Esattamente come Goku non ha mai superato il livello ottenuto con l'acqua del dio maestoso, o come Gohan e Crilin non hanno superato il livello ottenuto con il potenziamento dell'anziano saggio, o come Vegeta non ha mai superato il livello ottenuto con il potenziamento Majin o come Gohan (in Super) non ha mai superato il livello ottenuto tramite il rituale del sommo.
In Dragon Ball non esiste un livello massimo.

Che poi che Goku in più di 10 anni non abbia imparato ad usare il ssj3 a dovere lo considero ridicolo.

Matrixkid was saying: That ain't Goku. Idc what anyone says, that, is not Goku.
"


Arcticka said so in the french page. In his mind, and it is pretty backed up by the manga, Goku is much more eager to give up if he thinks or knows he is beaten than Vegeta. He also expects the same from his opponents. For Goku, a fight that is decided is a fight that is over. It can be seen in the fights against Vegeta (where Goku accepted death), Recoom, Freezer, Cell... For Vegeta, even if it makes him take severe injuries, he will never back down. Seen in the Freeza fight, where he continues taunting and fighting, against Cell and Recoom too.

@Mister Jiaozi

collegato al canone multiverse? comunque dove lo trovo? mi interessa come dovrebbe interessare a tutti i fan di multiverse

Comunque è meraviglioso.
Faticano a mettersi in piedi ma nello stato SS2 potrebbero demolire un palazzo solo starnutendo.

Sinceramente non trovo molto senso nell'usare attacchi energetici a tradimento durante una sfida come questa: per misurare la loro forza dovrebbero affrontarsi solo fisicamente o al massimo usare attacchi di ki contemporaneamente per farli scontrare e misurare... altrimenti diventa solo una sfida a chi è più rapido e mette prima ko l'altro (e così pensando, è come dire che Majin Vegeta battè Goku perché lo fece svenire...), cosa che può essere coerente quando si affronta un nemico che minaccia la Terra, ma non tra due guerrieri che si affrontano per confrontare i frutti dei loro allenamenti e per migliorarsi allo stesso tempo l'un l'altro :/

No, posso confermare che uno Special sull'Universo 9 è già in lavorazione (o è già finito naturalmente) ed a disegnarlo è Veguito, uno di quelli che ha disegnato il primo Special su tale Universo.
Anche Salagir l'aveva già preannunciato nell'annuncio del primo Special, dicendo: "Per quanto riguarda il seguito, potete stare tranquilli, sarà Veguito a realizzare molte, molte pagine!" ;).

Universo 9: Questo è uno dei pochi Universi in cui manca ancora tantissimo, dato che c'è quasi tutto da mostrare.

XisBack ha detto: Se non hanno retconnato pure quello, uno dei "trucchi" acquisiti da Goku è il SSJ3 istantaneo (che nella storia principale usa per bloccare Bardack quando Cold lo scaglia contro di lui... un overkill, ma fatto apposta per far vedere quella capacità).

Quindi sì, dovrebbe avere una padronanza del SSJ3 in grado di farlo passare in un istante dal 2 al 3 e farlo tornare subito dal 3 al 2, senza tutto il rrrrraaaAAAHHH di power up a cui siamo abituati.

Però lo fa già contro Butenks.

XisBack ha detto: Se non hanno retconnato pure quello, uno dei "trucchi" acquisiti da Goku è il SSJ3 istantaneo (che nella storia principale usa per bloccare Bardack quando Cold lo scaglia contro di lui... un overkill, ma fatto apposta per far vedere quella capacità).

Quindi sì, dovrebbe avere una padronanza del SSJ3 in grado di farlo passare in un istante dal 2 al 3 e farlo tornare subito dal 3 al 2, senza tutto il rrrrraaaAAAHHH di power up a cui siamo abituati.

Probabilmente nel canone di DBM sarebbe il modo migliore per usare il Ssj3. Partendo dal Ssj2 lo usi a scopo offensivo o difensivo per brevi momenti per rilasciarne l'enorme potere di colpo. Anche se ricordo che può mantenerlo consecutivamente per 20 minuti attualmente che se ci pensi non sono affatto pochi se quel lasso di tempo può usarne i pieni poteri

Ammetto che tutt'ora non apprezzo questo nerf del Ssj3 in quanto il discorso di Salagir di base non regge. I morti che mantengono il proprio corpo hanno una stamina elevatissima rispetto al normale ma non è infinita. E li Goku non ha mai realizzato il consumo energetico del Ssj3 in quanto lo ha scoperto da deceduto, con la stamina aggiuntiva. Quindi tecnicamente più stamina hai e più il Ssj3 dura maggiormente. Se Goku diventa più forte lo è in ogni suo attributo, quindi logicamente ne aumenterebbe la durata come già disse Salagir. Ma più sei forte secondo lui e meno dura

Cosa che si contraddice con Gotenks Ssj3. Stando a Salagir i 5 minuti di uso sono dovuti alla forma e non le conseguenze che ha sulla fusione. Tant'è che Gotenks Adulto Ssj3 dura meno del se bambino in quanto più forte. Tuttavia Goku, che ha superato la potenza di quel Gotenks e il se stesso della Saga di Bu, è riuscito a diventare più forte E aumentare il lasso di tempo della forma

Insomma, si dovrebbe chiedere a Salagir cosa ne pensa attualmente in merito visto che il discorso del Ssj3 che più sei forte e meno dura risale alle prime fasi di DBM. Potrebbe persino aver cambiato idea in merito. Disse che il Ssj3 di Vegeth durava si e no una decina di secondi da quanta potenza produceva, eppure contro l'illusione non sembra abbia combattuto per così poco o che sia sembrato affaticato dal suo uso quando ha dato quella legnata a Bra. Tu cosa ne pensi? Sarei curioso del tuo saggio parere

Un Altro special?!
Serieamete?!
SONO PASSATI TRE MESI DALLA STORIA PRINCIPALE VI PREGO NON UN ALTRO SPECIAL.
Vi pago in....


Pizze.
Vi va?

Fun, not her level: all that can't be taken into account. She isn't master of herself and half a minute ago, they were above her level.

Defending time.
#TeamAgainstPiccolo

Piccolo suggested Buu to go kill all earthlings.
In order to gain a few minutes (hours?), he actually suggested him to go on a death rampage on all humanity. Kami-sama-Piccolo.
Luckily for our earthlings, Buu killed them so fast, they didn't suffer and maybe even didn't understand they died. What Piccolo was suggesting would have been a far more traumatizing event.

Yes, in Dragon Ball, the, well, Dragon Balls are used as what they are: the ultimate magical deus-ex-machina "no consequences" item.
Goten was unconscious when he died. The people of this planet didn't have time to suffer either.
So of course, what Bra did is very bad.
But it is of almost no consequences.

XisBack was saying: and totally uninterested to revive them
says who? The fact she just assumes that's how things work and doesn't comment on the obvious "this can be dragon ball fixed" doesn't mean she didn't thought about it.

XisBack was saying: where DBalls are, destroying them too, by the way, so no excuses about "I could fix things later!"). WTF? Why am I like this?"
First, I would say the "why am I like this" is her main trouble on life right now and we've been shown that permantently, so I don't know what you want. You want her to think that as a 4yo? I bet you were almos a nobel as a 4yo too.

Second, where dragon balls are? Namek? They literally have a dragon ball making machine maker there. If you want to assume everyone is brainless on DB, I'm not gonna complain, they are on DBZ and they are on DBS, but just cause in DBM they actually make sense and know dragon balls do things I wouldn't blame them...

XisBack was saying: Leaving aside that MAIN point for a moment, there is a minor side point: if I soak you in piss for my own amusement or to vent my rage, because I'm stronger than you and then dismiss it because "Hey, you can fix it by just washing yourself, we have water in this world!" that's called sadism, plain and simple. And a sadist with such power is a terrible danger for the whole universe.
Sure. But would you call a kid that does that a psycho genocider?

Salagir was saying: Nobody's perfect (Except Cell of course ;p)


XisBack was saying: Where else could I read people using puberty as justification for remorseless fraticide and genocide?
Puberty AND dragon balls. I don't understand why you all keep ignoring the fact that whatevercide with dragon balls at hand is nothingcide if you plan to use them to undo it. XD

XisBack ha detto: Riporto questa pagina dai commenti in inglese
Salagir ha detto: Hello!
All these comments in this page are awesome!
There are great debates there of great quality and even very respectful. It was a pleasure and an honor to read them.

Should we open a #TeamVegetto and #TeamBra? :) Actually in this case, it's mostly to determine the worst person, so the opposite...

Your arguments are almost all legit and very justified. I did portrait both Vegetto and Bra with very big flaws and also redeeming qualities. That's on purpose. Nobody's perfect (Except Cell of course ;p) and these two have a long way to go!

EDIT: Jaykal's names are being decided. Coming soon.

Si possono capire due cose: loro sono contenti del numero di commenti (visite al sito) infischiandosene della coerenza o meno della storia, nel caro vecchio stile trolling di Salagir.

E pensano che più o meno Vegeth e Bra in questo capitolo siano alla pari come colpe.

Quindi sì, per quanto strano, aveva ragione chi diceva che queste ultime pagine non erano fatte tanto (o almeno non solo) per mostrare che Bra è una piagnona che non ha ancora capito cosa ha fatto, ma (anche) per mostrare che in fondo è una povera bimba e il padre è stato troppo severo con lei.

Io non ce la posso fare. :D

Edit: Anzi, si può capire anche una terza cosa: che avremo un lungo redemption arc (these two have a long way to go)

Guardando il commento di Ashanark, ho capito pure una quarta cosa. Nonostante la verità dei fatti mostri inequivocabilmente l'irresponsabilità di Bra, per nulla preoccupata o pentita di aver sterminato un fratello e con esso miliardi di innocenti, costruendo in maniera furba le scene, giocando con luci ed ombre, sembra apparire lei la vittima.
Con quello che ha scritto, Salagir sembra porsi al di sopra delle parti, ma entrando nel dettaglio tecnico si vede bene la parzialità degli autori verso questo personaggio. Se un genocida impenitente può passare per vittima, costruendo ad arte le immagini, figuriamoci come si può distorcere la verità nella vita reale.....

> Lady Maria

Sì, direi che come teoria ci sta.

> Superfogg

Sono d'accordo con quello che dici.

>le sfere del drago potessero essere usate per nascondere la terra a qualunque invasore alieno

Non ci avevo mai pensato, ma questa cosa è geniale!

PLUS PUBERTY!

these two have a long way to go!