@MrPerson0

Yes, Goku and Vegeta should have put their input on the Bra situation over Gotenks. In case you forgot, U18 Trunks is within Gotenks at the moment, so Goku and Vegeta could have just as valid points to make here.

This is universe 16 Gotenks speaking. He literally refers to Vegetto as "our father" not two pages ago. My memory is fine here. So no, this literally would have made no sense to have Goku or Vegeta randomly butt in on the dialogue that is happening. After they're all talking, sure. I'd welcome it. But during the actual talk? That would be absurd given neither of them is directly involved in the gast-vegetto-bra-gotenks talk happening here.


Fact of the matter is, the writing doesn't even make sense at the moment, such as everyone trying to blame Vegito for what Bra did (unless it turns out an outside force is manipulating the others to make Vegito go crazy).

"the writing doesn't make sense". How often do I see this being said anywhere. It doesn't make sense to us, the readers, because we have information available that the others do not. We have seen past events, past dialogue, past thoughts, that they do not. And nobody is trying to "blame" Vegito, they're trying to tell him that he's just as vulnerable as Bra is, just as human. That he too is a potential danger. And yes, Gotenks is rightfully pointing out that Vegito's Vegeta side purposely sought OUT power from Babidi. Unlike U18, U16 never saw Vegeta actually being "redeemed". For all they know he died in self-sacrifice but still somewhat of a villain (I mean he DID murder a couple hundred spectators for no reason).

Yes, we, the readers, know what his reasoning is. But they dont. And what did Bra witness in the past? Her father outright telling her he will straight up murder her. What do Gast and Gotenks and the others see? Corpses, the result of a massacre, caused by Babidi who put Bra under a spell. And subsequently they see Vegito, the assumed STRONGEST FIGHTER AROUND go full SSJ3 in an attempt to kill his daughter, who was possessed. We dont know if it was voluntary or not, and neither do they. They only have 3 people there who ever escaped that mindcontrol; Vegito, Vegeta, and Cell, and we know of both Vegito and Vegeta that they WANTED that powerup and probably defended themselves mentally from the enslavement. And then there's Cell who as we already know, was looking for all sorts of ways to increase his power (on top of having Vegetas cells), and we dont know what his deal was for certain either.

Assuming Babidi managed to take over Bra in a vulnerable moment, then Vegito is about as much to blame for the massacre as Bra was, which is to say; not at all. If she DID have herself be taken over voluntarily, thats a whole different perspective and she caused this willingly. But we dont know precisely yet.



This might have taken only three chapters, but the fact that it took a year to complete it is pretty ridiculous, especially since it showed we had to focus on this for a while, which is why the pacing is terrible.

The pacing of the story is, again, fine. It just seems bad because you have to wait for pages, and not chapters. Try reading a single page of the likes of One Piece, Bleach, or even regular Dragonball once every 2 days, then come back to me to talk about pacing.



Just because people are doing something for free doesn't shield them from criticism. Why do you think people get criticism on Fanfiction, YouTube videos, etc.?

Indeed, it does not shield them from criticism. Of their actual content. You want to disagree with the story and bring up reasons why its bad, go for it. But you're criticising the release speed of free content, which is the most absurd self-entitled horsecrap Ive heard here so far. Again; real lives. Real social activities or families. Work. And you have ONE person working on the pages. There's a guy on youtube, TotallyNotMark, who once made a video where he and some others correct the notoriously bad DBS designs. With existing designs, it took each of them several hours to correct a work already in place. Asura does an entire page in 2 days or so from SCRATCH. When it's not even his actual job. Give that some time to sink in. I dont know what your free time looks like, but my free time wouldnt even allow me that sort of timespan to deliver 3 pages in a week, only for someone like you to complain that its released too slowly.

1. “Bra’s story is tragic,” the story insists. “She is a victim.”
Well, here’s Vegito: after all his efforts to take care of Goku and Vegeta’s kids, after all his efforts to protect his universe, after being willing to make the hard decisions for the greater good… he’s been utterly humiliated, totally discredited, and publicly outed by his family, all as he lays helpless with his butt in the air. No one has spoken for him; not a single one of his points is valid. If there’s a tragedy here, it’s not Bra, but Vegito. If everyone’s demonized him, are we really surprised he snaps in the future? “We wonder if it’s not against you we’ll need to protect the universe one day…” Self-fulling prophecy.

2. “If Son Bra managed today, it’s not thanks to you.” Fun fact #1: on pages 1198 and 1816, Salagir labeled Bra as “spoiled”. A far cry from being abused/neglected by Vegito, no?
Spoiler, click to showGotenks’ statement ignores how Vegito specifically took Bra out as a space cop to protect people, told her not to hit diplomats and not to kill people, worked with her on multiple occasions about her control issues, praised Bra for saving him in space, made sure she didn’t torture Zangya, said she passed her test (when she actually failed it), rescued her from Ginyu, and announced (with this Gotenks’ components present) Bra could take care of Babidi, clearly indicating he didn’t think her Majinizable. Did Gotenks do any of these things? Vegito has obviously done the best he could, and he’s not afraid to get Gohan’s help (and Gotenks’--remember that one special?)
3. Trunks, Future Trunks, Goku, Gohan, and Goten never called out Vegeta like this post-Namek. Salagir’s brought this up as a complaint before. Now moron-until-the-plot-needs-him-not-to-be Gotenks is calmly doing to Vegito something neither of his components did against the much more evil, uninvolved, and worse track record Vegeta.

4. “I’ve got resentment and hatred in me. But… so do you, Dad!” Read: “The fact you have problems excuses my problems!” Fun fact #2: Bra has killed more people in her 16 years than Vegito in his 20.

5. If Bra wanted to be stronger than her dad, or valued power above all else, it certainly wasn’t because Vegito raised her that way. Vegito often emphasized restraint (and practiced what he preached pretty well), but I can’t recall a single time he told Bra strength was everything, or her worth was associated with her PL. Majin Bra’s rant about protecting “worthless” people? Didn’t get that from Vegito!

6. “I want to be stronger than her.” Man, if only these two actually had a canon interaction before the Majin Rebellion! Huh? Page 213, you say? Fun fact #3: never happened. The tournament pages before and after it are Vegito vs. Broly, and U18 Bra had already been evacuated to the audience seats on page 157. Salagir has never offered a replacement time for that interaction so for all we know it’s as “canon” as that one cover of Goku playing the guitar.

Dr Raichi was saying: Super Gojita 3 was saying: @vegeta not really beign punished last page raichi dbz fan

>The man died TWICE. If I told you you were going to die twice, but come back from it. Would you consider the fact that you died any less worse?

not in the db world. goku died twice and shrugged it off. for you and me, sure death is terrible but for the z warriors its like when M bison said to chun li "When bison invaded your village it was the most important day of your life. for me, it was tuesday"

> And you say it doesn't matter?

Nope. choutzu gets a free sundae next time he dies. He'll be revived immediately with no trauma from it whatsoever. nobody who dies in db ever does. Freeza died twice and it only made him so angry he mastered a form he wasn't even in.

>And Vegeta lived while Goku died? More power to him

you missed the point. "He felt bad". thats the only consequence. of that ordeal anyway.

>He can dress it up nicely all he wants, he basicly abandoned his family. And he wasn't coming back. Goku is the equivalent of going out for milk and not coming back again. And he does it AGAIN at the end of Z. Basicly LIVING WITH UUB. Instead of his wife.

hmm. I think he wanted to make it so bad guys like freeza and gero don't come back looking for him, but, why are you bringing up goku? This was about vegeta and his comeuppance which never really happened, nothing long term any way.

>Yes yes, he commited mass genocide and yes yes he used to be an assshole.

And thats what I like about him. I don't mind that he was never punished. in fact he killed yamcha (saibaman really) and then stole his girl. Where was that comeuppance again?

>But on a personal level, where family and relationships are involved, Vegeta, by the Buu Saga, is a far better person than Goku will ever be.
>Vegeta was arround. Goku didn't give a shit. Ot's a miracle Gohan didn't develop any issues with Goku as his father.

Goku ended up coming back. but father relations aside, thats not comeuppance. thats a seperate issue altogether.

>What you would consider "real punishment" would be Vegeta losing something permanently. Good luck with that though, they live in a universe where Freeza could be "glued back together" from 10 minutes in a healing tank, where magical beans exist, where Dragon Balls exist, where healing magic exists. Where an afterlife exists. And even if he lost something permanent, you would still say he hasn't attoned nearly enough for the millions of people he killed.

Correct. He has all those things. and even after killing 200 more people he came back from the dead because porunga said he was a good guy.

Like so far you haven't pointed out a proper punishment that stuck long term. killing him would have sufficed in the namek arc, but the wish brought him back. but not the village and children he killed. then he chilled on earth and dated the richest girl on earth.

Like, I could believe he was bummed about dying when it happened, but right after he was his usual self. having learned nothing and boasting about being the strongest as soon as goku dies on namek (he doesn't know he lives, but thats his thought process)

>You will never say he has "atoned" no matter what he does. Even if he lost all his limbs and lived as a plant for the rest of his life, you'd still say it isn't enough.

nah, that'd be pretty good. Good luck with that though.

>Bra has killed FAR MORE than Vegeta, the moment she blew up that solar system.

whoa pal. we don't know how many planets were part of that system that had life. But using bras bad behavior doesn't negate any of vegetas sins.

>And I don't buy the whole "she lost control of herself" that doesn't apply in real life and it doesn't apply in fiction either.

sure it does. characters like brolly exist, and she was even compared to him, but you keep changing the subject. I was talking about vegetas comeuppance, and so far you made 1 good suggestion I agreed would be a proper punishment for a genocidal killer. a killer who didn't lose control and was always in control of himself. Even if you don't like the berserker rage that bra used to have, its still a plot point for double saiyans and even regular saiyans. Gohan also went ape shit when he went ssj2. Salagir is using that principle but on steroids.

And thats the thing, it is the premise. that is the way the story went, its salagirs interpretation. Personally, I wouldn't have gone down that route, but it is what happened when she went ssj2 and never before. And it consistently happened each ssj2 transformation. even when ssj1 bra wanted to blow up earth, she was just a cunt, not a berserker.

>But no one gives him a pass.

do you mean movie 8 brolly, dbs brolly or the brolly who used to comment here?

I guess I could give dbs brolly a pass. lssj is unstable, and he is a nice guy when he's not hulking out. kale was too.

>The man was probably free and sane for mayby 1 hour in his adult life. Shall we send him to heaven? No, off to hell he goes. Everyone holds him accountable.

oh. movie 8 brolly. Nah, he was still evil when he was a normal ssj. most movie villains are just abhorrently evil.

What does this have to do with vegeta? A simple question of what comeuppance he had that you felt was appropriate is all I was asking.

>there is no difference between Brolly losing his mind in lssj, and Bra losing her mind in ssj2. Or even ssj1 in the beginning.

So, this is a bit more nuanced than you might realize, but I agree bra should have been better at the after math of when she went ssj2. Losing control was no excuse for how she handled the news of goten dying. Being berserk is a truth, it happened, but in her base form she was still an absolute jack ass. I'm not excusing her behavior or lack of concern for life.

>But please, keep giving Bra a pass.

strawman. I'm not giving her or vegeta a pass.

> But Vegeta faces consequences,

what consequences? he killed yamcha and stole his girl. he lost to freeza and died, only to be revived later that day not even upset he died or any ramifications of the dying process. he let cell become perfect, only for trunks and goku to die, and trunks was revived. he got beat up and zenkai'd.

He got his comeuppance by freeza not for what he did on earth or namek, just for defying freeza himself. that has nothing to do with earth or namek. and it was erased later via shenron. thats like a time out at best for db characters. If you and me died, we'd be traumatised upon ressurection, but these guys shrugged it off like gohan being kidnapped twice. trauma seems not to exist in the db world.

>while Bra doesn't.

I agree with this. And I have insisted she face consequences. I would say context exists, but not enough to exonerate her, so if a trial happened, and people knew what was going on, maybe manslaughter instead of murder 1. max penalty for it too.

@dbz fan

> If you don't think it was punishment enough I get that, but to say he wasn't punished at ALL?

an exagerration. Nothing was really all that severe.

>(unless you count when he cried, after his torture of course, then was killed by Frieza).

a short lived punishement. Thats what I'm getting at. death is usually the ultimate punishment, but here he gets a free ice cream upon his next death. A tfs joke, but I digress. there don't seem to be any lastign punishment for vegeta. And I think he redeemed himself later because of this, which is usually how things don't and shouldn't work.

>Also Frieza torturing Vegeta did not last for a minute. It lasted for years through servitude.

ok, hear me out. he didn't have to do any of that. he had space ships that can travel faster than light. he could have escaped. goku as a baby did, and vegeta could have done that too. he even went to earth, but instead of asking nicely for the db's, waiting a year even and explaining himself about freeza, he decided to kill everyone. granted a story like that would be more boring than what we got, but he didn't do the smart thing and decided to be an ass hole about it.

and forget just going to earth. space is vast. he could have gone anywhere. so I guess he did it because he liked the work and plotted to over throw freeza later? clearly the "torture" was his own decision at that point.

And his torture by freeza was his comeuppance for defying freeza, not for what he did on earth or namek, so thats still unfulfilled. if you kill a man in australia and kill a man in new jersey, because you served jail in 1 place, it doesn't count towards the jail time in the other.

>but it's hell. A place of eternal suffering and damnation.

I don't think 2 days would be that much. And I think he was in enmas domain the whole time preparing for buu. Was he even in hell? not like movie 12, but the manga? I don't even remember and this migraine is affecting my memory.

> A place of eternal suffering and damnation. I sure would never want to go there if it was real, or I was in the DBZ universe, or I was in any universe where hell/purgatory existed, for even 2 minutes.


>So because he had good things happen to him that completely wipes away the bad things he went through. Man I truly wish that's how life worked.

I'd say the bad was completely out weighed by the good. Not erased. Its like if hitler given a 2 year prison sentence and then given his own personal mansion and a lot of money...because bulma sure had those.

>But to say he was never punished or didn't have to suffer AT ALL..

I was perhaps exagerating, but sure, he didn't suffer any where near as much as the people he killed.

>What isn't pointless, and is completely correct to say, is that Bra has never had to go through anything even close to what Vegeta did

I can agree with that. vegeta got a slap on the wrist. bra got a free sundae.


Look man, that Vegeta gets brought back by accident on Namek is not his fault. When he woke up the first thing he thought was that he was in hell.
By all rights he had no expectations of coming back.

Same with Buu. Vegeta was suprised he was brought back to life, the wish was to bring back the "good people" Vegeta had no intention of asking to be brought back himself. Sure, Bulma would have probably tried to wish him back but again, not Vegeta's fault.

Freeza spent 13 years hanging in a tree, unable to move, surrounded by everything he hates. King Yema said he should have reincarnated by now, but hadn't because he STILL refused to repent. Anyway 13 years like that would drive a man in real life insane. You and I would definitely be screwed up after all that.

Something similar was going to happen to Vegeta, twice, and both times, he had no expectation of coming back. Sure he didn't face long term consequences, but he did what he did expecting he wouldn't come back. That he was brought back is, again, not his fault.

Regarding Goku, look man, his first priority should have been to be there for his pregnant wife and teenage son. Who gives a shit about random strangers or "the planet" Nameless strangers. The man abandoned his family for people who don't know he exists.

Secondly, how does him being dead protect anyone? Buu came to earth while Goku was dead. So clearly that didn't work out.

Thirdly he came back to life. And in the 20 years since then, no new threat has emerged. So he was dead for 7 years for nothing. Buu would have come regardless of whetehr he lived or died, and no other threat has appeared.

Fourthly, and Toriyama says this himself, Goku is very selfish, he's a guy who loves fighting and just "happens" to save the world while he does it. He's not fighting to save the world, he saves the world because he loves fighting and he can solve the problem with his fists.

"berserker" states don't exist. That's just an excuse for people who have no impulse control. Bra is responsible for the lives she took when she was 12. Don't tell me she was a child. Gohan saved the world from cell when he was 11.


Whether they are long lasting consequences or not, they still are consequences. Sure, you can say he gets fixed afterwards, but I don't know man, Vegeta's had some BRUTAL beatings. He got a hole in his chest, twice, he got both arms broken, he got beaten within an inch of his life multiple times, that still really really hurts. Bra by contrast, has cruised through life, got overpowered ONCE and immediately became a ssj2.

The earthlings sans Bulma actively resented Vegeta for a long time. Only Goku and Bulma were buddy buddy with him. Goku's whole shtick is him forgiving everybody and Bulma wanted the D, so yeah.

Vegeta "stole Yamcha's girl" yes, blame that one on Bulma, she's the one who dumped Yamcha. From Vegeta's perspective it was basicly a one night stand in the beginning with a woman he didn't really care about. And he and Yamcha aren't exactly friends.

The narrative never excuses Vegeta's behavior. And Toriyama dislikes Vegeta,

And let's be honest. No one cares about millions of "nameless people" Vegeta killed. We, the audience, care only about the ones we see happening.
Vegeta didn't kill anyone on earth. Hell I can go to extremes.

Yamcha died because he got cocky, and a saibaman self destructed on him. Not Vegeta's fault.
Chiaotzu blew himself up. He killed himself. Not Vegeta's fault.
Tien did a pointless revenge attack against Nappa, then collapsed and died on the spot. Not Vegeta's fault.
Piccolo ran into a fucking attack and died because of it, instead of yknow, grabbing Gohan, he for some reason, shields him. But well. Not Vegeta's fault.

Vegeta did not kill anyone on Earth. Had Vegeta not being there, but Nappa was, they would still have died to Nappa.

So who DID he kill? Well there's that whole village of Namekinas, those are on screen kills, he should make up for that, yes. There were also these random people he killed while fighting android 18 and there was that time he blew up a stadium. Those are his confirmed kills.

Now compare that to Bra, who has killed Goten, and an entire civilization, plus any neighboring life in that galaxy, attempted to blow up the earth, and killed Gohan, Piccolo and others while majinized.

Wanna know why Bra comes off as worse here? Because Bra kills people we care about. We, the audience, react much heavier to Bra killing Gohan than Vegeta killing random people at a tournament. As a result, she comes off worse. Especially when you consider Vegeta wanted to avenge Gohan when he was majinized.

But let's be real. The real reason Vegeta is better received than Bra is because Vegeta is better written. That's all there is to it. Salagir says he's perplexed people apply a double standard, and there are certainly some people who do this. But the vast majority simply likes Vegeta because he's well written (arguably the best in all of Dragon Ball) and Bra is not.


>Look man, that Vegeta gets brought back by accident on Namek is not his fault. When he woke up the first thing he thought was that he was in hell.
By all rights he had no expectations of coming back.


>does that make any real difference than intent? imagine being sentenced to jail and then you get broken out of it within the hour. You weren't punished, not much really. you got the metaphorical "get out of jail free" card. the punishment should have been eternal but was not.

>Same with Buu. Vegeta was suprised he was brought back to life, the wish was to bring back the "good people" Vegeta had no intention of asking to be brought back himself. Sure, Bulma would have probably tried to wish him back but again, not Vegeta's fault.

again, being broken out of jail within 2 days does not undermine the idea of eternal punishment cut short.

Not his fault?



>Anyway 13 years like that would drive a man in real life insane. You and I would definitely be screwed up after all that.

yeah, 13 years, not 1 hour or 2 days.

>That he was brought back is, again, not his fault.

you keep making excuses for him. So what if its not his fault? he still didn't get a proper comeuppance.

>Regarding Goku, look man, his first priority should have been to be there for his pregnant wife and teenage son.

didn't know she was pregnant, and gohan didn't need him so much as he was able to stand on his own, but I do agree that reviving goku and not staying dead would be best. the whole "attractign bad guys" was a flimsy excuse by AT and goku.

>Secondly, how does him being dead protect anyone? Buu came to earth while Goku was dead. So clearly that didn't work out.

yup. I agree.

>Thirdly he came back to life. And in the 20 years since then, no new threat has emerged. So he was dead for 7 years for nothing. Buu would have come regardless of whetehr he lived or died, and no other threat has appeared.

eh, well beerus did want to find the ssjg. and dbs happened because he was alive, so...maybe he was right to stay dead.

>Fourthly, and Toriyama says this himself, Goku is very selfish, he's a guy who loves fighting and just "happens" to save the world while he does it. He's not fighting to save the world, he saves the world because he loves fighting and he can solve the problem with his fists.

show don't tell. in dbz goku was quite selfless, and especially in db.

>"berserker" states don't exist.

sure they do. ina work of fiction you can write anything to be anything. The script and plot called for her to be like brolly and berserk. Thats it. Magic doesn't exist in real life, yet magic is a very real thing in db.

> Don't tell me she was a child. Gohan saved the world from cell when he was 11.

yeah, and his ssj2 also caused him to go mad. wanting to torture cell. granted he wasn't berserk, but the plot for double saiyans calls for her to be berserk.

Hey, I don't really like it, but thats his script, not mine.

>Whether they are long lasting consequences or not, they still are consequences

but were they enough? I don't think so. Its a slap on the wrist really.

>Vegeta's had some BRUTAL beatings. He got a hole in his chest, twice, he got both arms broken, he got beaten within an inch of his life multiple times,

and it only made him stronger! he literally wanted the hole in his chest for a zenaki! All of that was part of his plan! granted he got his arm broken, but he wasn't exactly crying about that, unlike with freeza.

all of that was pretty much a typical tuesday afternoon for him. he shrugged it off and thats about it. a broken arm for you and me would be horrifying, but for him it was tuesday. senzus healed him up pretty good.

>The earthlings sans Bulma actively resented Vegeta for a long time.

I wouldn't exactly call that a punishment.

>Vegeta "stole Yamcha's girl" yes, blame that one on Bulma, she's the one who dumped Yamcha. From Vegeta's perspective it was basicly a one night stand in the beginning with a woman he didn't really care about. And he and Yamcha aren't exactly friends.

acting like anyone cares about yamcha



>The narrative never excuses Vegeta's behavior. And Toriyama dislikes Vegeta,

again, not comeuppance.

>And let's be honest. No one cares about millions of "nameless people" Vegeta killed.

does nobody care about bras unseen kills? I do. and I care about vegetas unseen kills all the same. I put both in the same camp of "ass holes"

>And let's be honest. No one cares about millions of "nameless people" Vegeta killed.

I mean, he only killed the prior saibaman and said he'd kill the rest if they didn't perform. but sure. its not his fault at all. this was a planned death match after all.

>Chiaotzu blew himself up. He killed himself. Not Vegeta's fault.

I mean, he was only going to be killed if he didn't try to save everyone, but sure.

>Tien did a pointless revenge attack against Nappa, then collapsed and died on the spot. Not Vegeta's fault.

I mean, he was only going to be killed if he didn't try to save everyone or try to avenge choutzu. nappa was going to leave him alone I'm sure, and vegeta would be cool with that.

>Piccolo ran into a fucking attack and died because of it, instead of yknow, grabbing Gohan, he for some reason, shields him. But well. Not Vegeta's fault.

are...are you insinuating the anime cinematic time has to do with the mangas quick paced movement? and was nappa not going to kill gohan? whos fault is it that vegeta ordered nappa to kill people?

>vegeta killed a namekian village. and relished at the idea of murdering them. Again. not vegetas fault

Aw come on!

>egeta did not kill anyone on Earth. Had Vegeta not being there, but Nappa was, they would still have died to Nappa.

oh, I get it. he only ORDERED their deaths. That makes all the difference. kind of like how hitler only ordered the deaths of all his victims. hitler, the sympathestic ruler. yeah now I get it.

>Now compare that to Bra, who has killed Goten, and an entire civilization, plus any neighboring life in that galaxy,

wait a second! those neighboring lives were all off screen! they don't count! either they do, and all of vegetas off screen planets he wrecked count or none of either persons off screen kills count! which is it?

>Wanna know why Bra comes off as worse here? Because Bra kills people we care about.

ah. so killing people is ok, and the feeling of death and fear of dying is ok when its someone you don't know. Gotcha. does that apply in real life too?

you didn't care about piccolo being killed or rather that gohan was about to be killed by nappa who was ordered to by vegeta? harsh.


>But let's be real. The real reason Vegeta is better received than Bra is because Vegeta is better written.

wow. no kidding.

so on that note, nothing is vegetas fault, its ok he killed people we don't care about, his off screen kills don't count, and its awful that yamcha doesn't like him.

@vegeta not really beign punished last page raichi dbz fan

>The man died TWICE. If I told you you were going to die twice, but come back from it. Would you consider the fact that you died any less worse?

not in the db world. goku died twice and shrugged it off. for you and me, sure death is terrible but for the z warriors its like when M bison said to chun li "When bison invaded your village it was the most important day of your life. for me, it was tuesday"

> And you say it doesn't matter?

Nope. choutzu gets a free sundae next time he dies. He'll be revived immediately with no trauma from it whatsoever. nobody who dies in db ever does. Freeza died twice and it only made him so angry he mastered a form he wasn't even in.

>And Vegeta lived while Goku died? More power to him

you missed the point. "He felt bad". thats the only consequence. of that ordeal anyway.

>He can dress it up nicely all he wants, he basicly abandoned his family. And he wasn't coming back. Goku is the equivalent of going out for milk and not coming back again. And he does it AGAIN at the end of Z. Basicly LIVING WITH UUB. Instead of his wife.

hmm. I think he wanted to make it so bad guys like freeza and gero don't come back looking for him, but, why are you bringing up goku? This was about vegeta and his comeuppance which never really happened, nothing long term any way.

>Yes yes, he commited mass genocide and yes yes he used to be an assshole.

And thats what I like about him. I don't mind that he was never punished. in fact he killed yamcha (saibaman really) and then stole his girl. Where was that comeuppance again?

>But on a personal level, where family and relationships are involved, Vegeta, by the Buu Saga, is a far better person than Goku will ever be.
>Vegeta was arround. Goku didn't give a shit. Ot's a miracle Gohan didn't develop any issues with Goku as his father.

Goku ended up coming back. but father relations aside, thats not comeuppance. thats a seperate issue altogether.

>What you would consider "real punishment" would be Vegeta losing something permanently. Good luck with that though, they live in a universe where Freeza could be "glued back together" from 10 minutes in a healing tank, where magical beans exist, where Dragon Balls exist, where healing magic exists. Where an afterlife exists. And even if he lost something permanent, you would still say he hasn't attoned nearly enough for the millions of people he killed.

Correct. He has all those things. and even after killing 200 more people he came back from the dead because porunga said he was a good guy.

Like so far you haven't pointed out a proper punishment that stuck long term. killing him would have sufficed in the namek arc, but the wish brought him back. but not the village and children he killed. then he chilled on earth and dated the richest girl on earth.

Like, I could believe he was bummed about dying when it happened, but right after he was his usual self. having learned nothing and boasting about being the strongest as soon as goku dies on namek (he doesn't know he lives, but thats his thought process)

>You will never say he has "atoned" no matter what he does. Even if he lost all his limbs and lived as a plant for the rest of his life, you'd still say it isn't enough.

nah, that'd be pretty good. Good luck with that though.

>Bra has killed FAR MORE than Vegeta, the moment she blew up that solar system.

whoa pal. we don't know how many planets were part of that system that had life. But using bras bad behavior doesn't negate any of vegetas sins.

>And I don't buy the whole "she lost control of herself" that doesn't apply in real life and it doesn't apply in fiction either.

sure it does. characters like brolly exist, and she was even compared to him, but you keep changing the subject. I was talking about vegetas comeuppance, and so far you made 1 good suggestion I agreed would be a proper punishment for a genocidal killer. a killer who didn't lose control and was always in control of himself. Even if you don't like the berserker rage that bra used to have, its still a plot point for double saiyans and even regular saiyans. Gohan also went ape shit when he went ssj2. Salagir is using that principle but on steroids.

And thats the thing, it is the premise. that is the way the story went, its salagirs interpretation. Personally, I wouldn't have gone down that route, but it is what happened when she went ssj2 and never before. And it consistently happened each ssj2 transformation. even when ssj1 bra wanted to blow up earth, she was just a cunt, not a berserker.

>But no one gives him a pass.

do you mean movie 8 brolly, dbs brolly or the brolly who used to comment here?

I guess I could give dbs brolly a pass. lssj is unstable, and he is a nice guy when he's not hulking out. kale was too.

>The man was probably free and sane for mayby 1 hour in his adult life. Shall we send him to heaven? No, off to hell he goes. Everyone holds him accountable.

oh. movie 8 brolly. Nah, he was still evil when he was a normal ssj. most movie villains are just abhorrently evil.

What does this have to do with vegeta? A simple question of what comeuppance he had that you felt was appropriate is all I was asking.

>there is no difference between Brolly losing his mind in lssj, and Bra losing her mind in ssj2. Or even ssj1 in the beginning.

So, this is a bit more nuanced than you might realize, but I agree bra should have been better at the after math of when she went ssj2. Losing control was no excuse for how she handled the news of goten dying. Being berserk is a truth, it happened, but in her base form she was still an absolute jack ass. I'm not excusing her behavior or lack of concern for life.

>But please, keep giving Bra a pass.

strawman. I'm not giving her or vegeta a pass.

> But Vegeta faces consequences,

what consequences? he killed yamcha and stole his girl. he lost to freeza and died, only to be revived later that day not even upset he died or any ramifications of the dying process. he let cell become perfect, only for trunks and goku to die, and trunks was revived. he got beat up and zenkai'd.

He got his comeuppance by freeza not for what he did on earth or namek, just for defying freeza himself. that has nothing to do with earth or namek. and it was erased later via shenron. thats like a time out at best for db characters. If you and me died, we'd be traumatised upon ressurection, but these guys shrugged it off like gohan being kidnapped twice. trauma seems not to exist in the db world.

>while Bra doesn't.

I agree with this. And I have insisted she face consequences. I would say context exists, but not enough to exonerate her, so if a trial happened, and people knew what was going on, maybe manslaughter instead of murder 1. max penalty for it too.

@dbz fan

> If you don't think it was punishment enough I get that, but to say he wasn't punished at ALL?

an exagerration. Nothing was really all that severe.

>(unless you count when he cried, after his torture of course, then was killed by Frieza).

a short lived punishement. Thats what I'm getting at. death is usually the ultimate punishment, but here he gets a free ice cream upon his next death. A tfs joke, but I digress. there don't seem to be any lastign punishment for vegeta. And I think he redeemed himself later because of this, which is usually how things don't and shouldn't work.

>Also Frieza torturing Vegeta did not last for a minute. It lasted for years through servitude.

ok, hear me out. he didn't have to do any of that. he had space ships that can travel faster than light. he could have escaped. goku as a baby did, and vegeta could have done that too. he even went to earth, but instead of asking nicely for the db's, waiting a year even and explaining himself about freeza, he decided to kill everyone. granted a story like that would be more boring than what we got, but he didn't do the smart thing and decided to be an ass hole about it.

and forget just going to earth. space is vast. he could have gone anywhere. so I guess he did it because he liked the work and plotted to over throw freeza later? clearly the "torture" was his own decision at that point.

And his torture by freeza was his comeuppance for defying freeza, not for what he did on earth or namek, so thats still unfulfilled. if you kill a man in australia and kill a man in new jersey, because you served jail in 1 place, it doesn't count towards the jail time in the other.

>but it's hell. A place of eternal suffering and damnation.

I don't think 2 days would be that much. And I think he was in enmas domain the whole time preparing for buu. Was he even in hell? not like movie 12, but the manga? I don't even remember and this migraine is affecting my memory.

> A place of eternal suffering and damnation. I sure would never want to go there if it was real, or I was in the DBZ universe, or I was in any universe where hell/purgatory existed, for even 2 minutes.



>So because he had good things happen to him that completely wipes away the bad things he went through. Man I truly wish that's how life worked.

I'd say the bad was completely out weighed by the good. Not erased. Its like if hitler given a 2 year prison sentence and then given his own personal mansion and a lot of money...because bulma sure had those.

>But to say he was never punished or didn't have to suffer AT ALL..

I was perhaps exagerating, but sure, he didn't suffer any where near as much as the people he killed.

>What isn't pointless, and is completely correct to say, is that Bra has never had to go through anything even close to what Vegeta did

I can agree with that. vegeta got a slap on the wrist. bra got a free sundae.

Dr Raichi was saying: Great. Mission accomplished. We can all go home now.
Now please continue with the tournament.

And Bra is in no position to give Vegito crap. She has 2 dead Gohans lying around her.
Tone deaf. Again.
She was friggin' being mind controlled! Wth!? There are so many people who are just digging for reasons to shit on Son Bra. My tolerance is a running a little thin

Someone said here that Salagir doesn't talk with his team about Dragon Ball Multiverse. Especially Son Bra.
Well, that's not true. As a member of the team ( i work with Articka on the novel), i can tell that we have many debates with Salagir about the story, the characters. He's not close-minded. But DBM's story will never be dictated by the readers.
https://w...-76.html#h_read: Like he said here, he will keep frustrating the readers.

Memati was saying: Bird Mountain was saying: Memati was saying: Bird Mountain was saying: You know, we can sympathize with a character, and still believe that it is better for society/the rest of the universe if they are removed from the community to prevent further damage to the community.

"Berserker", "out of control", "insane", "mental illness", etc can make you feel sympathy for a person, but it is not an answer as to what the rest of the society should do in response to the actions of this person.

If there was a person who had the strength of a superhuman but had the mental age of a 3 year old, you may feel extremely sympathetic towards them, but after they accidentally kill a person due to not understanding the consequences of their actions, should we just allow this person to walk around? Oops, sorry for the person who is dead, but this superhuman is not responsible. No, this is not what we do today. Crimes of passion, crimes committed by the insane, and crimes committed by the disabled, still meet a response from the institutions of society.

However, since we are talking about superhumans, normal responses are not going to be enough to limit the impact of the superhuman. Superman could break out of any prison; similarly, immature Bra can teleport, has the second largest powerlevel, and can break out of any prison. There is no way to limit the damage that she may cause in her "out of control"/"berserker" state. She can literally kill anyone except for Vegito. If we were to try to confine Bra, force her into therapy, or just able to prevent her from being able to kill innocent people in any state, we don't have any options. Vegito can be handcuffed to her, but even that option has a time limit. If she becomes stronger than Vegito, then there is literally no one who can stop Bra from destroying the ENTIRE universe in a fit.

I am sure there will still be people who will say that Bra is not responsible for her actions. She is a good girl, even as her kill count reaches the quadrillions. But most of the universe will be cursing the idoits in charge who just let this happen because she's really a good girl when she is not out of control. Yeah, who cares if she is technically responsible when she is about to kill everyone you know. Sure, Vegito coulda, shoulda, woulda but in the current state of affairs, there is only one safe choice for the universe to ensure that an irresponsible (perhaps not morally responsible for the her actions) superhuman does not wipe out the universe.

You can excuse her actions now, but I am pretty sure that you will wish Vegito had taken care of her when he could the moment you see her charging her attack on the planet. Maybe we should not have trusted a girl who has multiple times gone out of control not to go out of control again... That's everyone's bad.

So, Bra being "morally" responsible for her actions is a very limited element of the calculus of what to do with her. Is it heroic to let a superhuman with the powers of Superman but the mental age of a 3 year old continue to murder people accidentally? Or should heroes do something to prevent that accidental loss of life?

Yeah, I know several of you will sieze on the Babidi factor, but that's a not a thing that actually counters my point. In fact, it still supports my position. If the superhuman can be controlled by evil people, it is just a risk that is far too great for us to not have any safeguards. Bra, if she surpasses Vegito, will have no checks. She or anyone who controls her can destroy the universe or rule it without opposition.

Vegito has not murdered people randomly, nor has he been shown to be susceptible to being controlled. Yeah, he is a threat as well, but he is less of a threat than Bra at the moment.


So, while I appreciate the conversation regarding whether she is responsible or not, it misses the point that Vegito has literally no other choice if he wants to save the universe from an out of control Bra. How many times is it going to take for people to say that perhaps Bra has used up all her chances to get control over herself?

Right... Just one more. Then one more chance. One more chance after that. I know the story is structured so that Bra will control herself after this incident, but the characters should not know they are in a story. So, while we all know that Bra is good from now on, Vegito and U16 do not.

Sorry, Vegito is making a good decision. Is it the optimal decision? I do not know, but it is not a bad decision. He is not murdering her; he is defending the universe. Save the daughter; endanger the universe. Save the universe;kill the daughter. To me, it is an impossible choice. Can you save both? Maybe, but if you are wrong choosing to save the daughter, you just killed a lot of people. If you are wrong in saving the universe, you just kill one person. Seems pretty cut and dry to me. Remember, don't judge knowing story structure because the characters don't.

We all know that Bra is under control now. We all know that she is going to be the hero now. We know the formula and the author's intent. So knowing this is a story, saving Bra is the right thing to do. But, if you didn't, Vegito is clearly making the most logical (and difficult) choice.
>Sorry, Vegito is making a good decision. Is it the optimal decision? I do not know, but it is not a bad decision. He is not murdering her; he is defending the universe.

That would've been the case if he killed her back when she went berserk as a kid. Sparing her then but killing her now over going majin makes no sense. Bra was mind controlled and is no danger any more. If she were still a majin or had she gone berserk again I'd side with Vegito and admit he is right to do so, since there is no stopping her otherwise. But killing her under the current circumstances? He didn't even try to make it quick, no. He was gonna beat her to death to let out his anger. Sorry, but he clearly lost it.

Bird Mountain was saying: Memati was saying: Bird Mountain was saying: You know, we can sympathize with a character, and still believe that it is better for society/the rest of the universe if they are removed from the community to prevent further damage to the community.

"Berserker", "out of control", "insane", "mental illness", etc can make you feel sympathy for a person, but it is not an answer as to what the rest of the society should do in response to the actions of this person.

If there was a person who had the strength of a superhuman but had the mental age of a 3 year old, you may feel extremely sympathetic towards them, but after they accidentally kill a person due to not understanding the consequences of their actions, should we just allow this person to walk around? Oops, sorry for the person who is dead, but this superhuman is not responsible. No, this is not what we do today. Crimes of passion, crimes committed by the insane, and crimes committed by the disabled, still meet a response from the institutions of society.

However, since we are talking about superhumans, normal responses are not going to be enough to limit the impact of the superhuman. Superman could break out of any prison; similarly, immature Bra can teleport, has the second largest powerlevel, and can break out of any prison. There is no way to limit the damage that she may cause in her "out of control"/"berserker" state. She can literally kill anyone except for Vegito. If we were to try to confine Bra, force her into therapy, or just able to prevent her from being able to kill innocent people in any state, we don't have any options. Vegito can be handcuffed to her, but even that option has a time limit. If she becomes stronger than Vegito, then there is literally no one who can stop Bra from destroying the ENTIRE universe in a fit.

I am sure there will still be people who will say that Bra is not responsible for her actions. She is a good girl, even as her kill count reaches the quadrillions. But most of the universe will be cursing the idoits in charge who just let this happen because she's really a good girl when she is not out of control. Yeah, who cares if she is technically responsible when she is about to kill everyone you know. Sure, Vegito coulda, shoulda, woulda but in the current state of affairs, there is only one safe choice for the universe to ensure that an irresponsible (perhaps not morally responsible for the her actions) superhuman does not wipe out the universe.

You can excuse her actions now, but I am pretty sure that you will wish Vegito had taken care of her when he could the moment you see her charging her attack on the planet. Maybe we should not have trusted a girl who has multiple times gone out of control not to go out of control again... That's everyone's bad.

So, Bra being "morally" responsible for her actions is a very limited element of the calculus of what to do with her. Is it heroic to let a superhuman with the powers of Superman but the mental age of a 3 year old continue to murder people accidentally? Or should heroes do something to prevent that accidental loss of life?

Yeah, I know several of you will sieze on the Babidi factor, but that's a not a thing that actually counters my point. In fact, it still supports my position. If the superhuman can be controlled by evil people, it is just a risk that is far too great for us to not have any safeguards. Bra, if she surpasses Vegito, will have no checks. She or anyone who controls her can destroy the universe or rule it without opposition.

Vegito has not murdered people randomly, nor has he been shown to be susceptible to being controlled. Yeah, he is a threat as well, but he is less of a threat than Bra at the moment.


So, while I appreciate the conversation regarding whether she is responsible or not, it misses the point that Vegito has literally no other choice if he wants to save the universe from an out of control Bra. How many times is it going to take for people to say that perhaps Bra has used up all her chances to get control over herself?

Right... Just one more. Then one more chance. One more chance after that. I know the story is structured so that Bra will control herself after this incident, but the characters should not know they are in a story. So, while we all know that Bra is good from now on, Vegito and U16 do not.

Sorry, Vegito is making a good decision. Is it the optimal decision? I do not know, but it is not a bad decision. He is not murdering her; he is defending the universe. Save the daughter; endanger the universe. Save the universe;kill the daughter. To me, it is an impossible choice. Can you save both? Maybe, but if you are wrong choosing to save the daughter, you just killed a lot of people. If you are wrong in saving the universe, you just kill one person. Seems pretty cut and dry to me. Remember, don't judge knowing story structure because the characters don't.

We all know that Bra is under control now. We all know that she is going to be the hero now. We know the formula and the author's intent. So knowing this is a story, saving Bra is the right thing to do. But, if you didn't, Vegito is clearly making the most logical (and difficult) choice.
>Sorry, Vegito is making a good decision. Is it the optimal decision? I do not know, but it is not a bad decision. He is not murdering her; he is defending the universe.

That would've been the case if he killed her back when she went berserk as a kid. Sparing her then but killing her now over going majin makes no sense. Bra was mind controlled and is no danger any more. If she were still a majin or had she gone berserk again I'd side with Vegito and admit he is right to do so, since there is no stopping her otherwise. But killing her under the current circumstances? He didn't even try to make it quick, no. He was gonna beat her to death to let out his anger. Sorry, but he clearly lost it.


So, justice delayed is justice denied?
Vegito was justified earlier, but now that she has once again killed a bunch of innocent people, it isn't relevant again?

Your position still is looking at her responsibility to justify letting her off now, but the issue is that Bra is a dangerous weapon that has killed innocent people - multiple times. It is not whether Bra is at the wheel that is the issue which deserves a response. Not being at the wheel does not change the fact that the car has once again run over people.

Yeah, maybe after the second incident, it was the best time, but better late than never. I am not sure about you, but after three incidents, even if one was not technically her fault, I think it is high time to do something.

You actually agree with me based on your comment, but you don't like that this incident triggered the response that Vegito should have done last time. I will give him a break that he did not want to kill his daughter, but after seeing his son bisected, maybe he was a little bit more willing to do what he should have done last time.

I forgot... Have they removed the bodies from the arena yet? Is Gohan still laying there cut in two? Naw, that is not traumatic. That doesn't bring the consequences of letting Bra loose into the universe to mind... At least it would not for me. I would only be concerned about how much the girl who previously murdered her brother and was willing to destroy her entire family was actually present in this one act...

Context:

She nearly blew up Earth.
She killed billions and her brother.

I see her dead brother and a bunch of other victims, and I am supposed to think, "Hey, this one wasn't her fault." Instead of, "Hey, she is too dangerous to be left alive." Makes sense to me.

Hey, I hope if I ever murder someone, you are on my jury.

>So, justice delayed is justice denied? Vegito was justified earlier, but now that she has once again killed a bunch of innocent people, it isn't relevant again?

The point is, she killed these "innocent people" as a weapon, a tool. She wasn't herself nor did she lose her mind like she did as a kid. The culprit here is babidi. Bra is in no way a danger anymore as of now and she did show no traits of losing her mind over going ssj2 in this tournament at all. It was one instance as a kid and he forgave her that one time with a warning to kill her next time. Claiming this is that next time he warned her for, when she had little to no control over the situation is a bit extreme, no?

>Hey, I hope if I ever murder someone, you are on my jury

So if you were to be controlled by a evil magician to murder someone, you'd like to be given the death sentence despite having no control over the situation and everyone including the jury knowing the true culprit?

Oh you mean that it should not matter that I avoided an attempted murder charge and multiple murder charges (involuntary manslaughter at minimum) because I am politically connected with the prosecutor? Yeah, evil wizard and all, but label me a danger to society? How dare you, good sir or madam! How dare you form an illogical opinion... Of... Me? Wait a minute... I suppose if that label doesn't apply, then the label has no meaning. It is all about the current incident. The trend is inconsequential.

Whenever Bra is around, innocent people die (and lots of them). Sometimes she does it, but every once in a while, someone makes her do it. Would she have done it on her own when others made her? Not enough evidence to say that she wouldn't have. Who knows if she would have killed them if she lost control fighting Cell or someone... The point is that you have to take a holistic approach in assessing what to do with Bra.

And yes, I would agree that I am too dangerous to be left alive if this were me. I can't control myself, and I can be controlled because I cannot control myself. I nearly killed everyone I know at one time or another. Perhaps ending me is the best choice, but I am not a narcissist. I think about how my actions affect others not just how they affect me and others perceptions of me.

Whether she is a weapon this time one time, does not change the calculation that if you are around Bra, she may kill you.

Personally, I would rather hang out with DB Super Broly, who is also a berserker, than Bra.

My point is that Bra is too volatile with too much destructive power. It is irresponsible to let her continue to put EVERYTHING and EVERYONE in danger because this one time she killed innocent people, it is not technically her fault - even it not being her fault is not exactly clear. She has had the mens rea and the actus rea in previous incidents. If the past is the best predictor for the future, well, it does not look too good for Gohan and Goten and Trunks - and anyone else for that matter.

Would you like to live with Bra? I mean she has only gone off those few times. I am sure that she won't kill her family or destroy the planet again... Unless she is being controlled or is really pissed.
You are saying he should kill her for something that happened many years ago under the assumption it might happen again, despite choosing to forgive her these many years ago and already taking that risk for many years? He spared her back then when everything was 100% on her, but killing her now when everything she did was heavily influenced by a third party is the right thing to do? That makes just no sense to me, especially since Vegito is still stronger than Bra by a great deal and could kill her the moment she loses her mind again while actually beeing right to do so.

And her losing her mind again is quite doubtful with her controlling ssj2 now or even way earlier, when she couldn't control it but still immediately transformed back upon realizing she hit her dad and brother in space vs Buu. She showed no traits of completely going berserk again ever since these instances when she was a kid.

>Would you like to live with Bra? I mean she has only gone off those few times. I am sure that she won't kill her family or destroy the planet again... Unless she is being controlled or is really pissed.

If I were Goten or Gohan? Why not? I'd know better than to blame my sister for my death when she was put under a magicians control against her will and much rather pity her, hoping she comes to her senses or if not, meets a quick end. And everything implies against her ever losing her mind again at this point. If it were still to happen, that'd be the right point for Vegetto to go all out to kill her.

If Vegito had killed her back then it'd be one thing, but sparing her only to kill her years later for something that she was completely forced to do is not heroic in the slighest.

And whats worse is he didn't even try to make it quick but completely lost it with the intent to beat her to death, despite having more than enough overpowered techniques to kill her in one shot.

I see. It seems you are stuck on this one issue, and do not want to see Bra as a person while using the story formula to justify inaction regarding this incident because of the specifics of this incident not that it is a furtherance of the issue that Bra is not strong enough to not kill innocent people around her, which endangers everything and everyone in the universe.

The characters have no idea if Bra will lose control again. They can't know that since Bra has not given any evidence for them to make that kind of judgment. U18 Bra can't know. Her reassurance is as valuable in assessing U18 Bra's ability to control herself as a mirage is to a person dying of thirst. In other words, not at all...

If Vegito one-shotted Bra, Gast could not have saved her. This is the act of the author more than the character. Yes, I know that I am using story formula, but this is the reason that Vegito did it this way. If she is dead that would go against what the author wants for the story.

In story, yeah, Vegito is probably pissed. You know the dead people around him... Again. And he views Babidi's control as being something that is easily dismissed. The strongest in the universe might need to be resistant to be controlled.

Vegito himself said that Bra may surpass him. And then what? Let's hope no one ever figures out how to replicate Babidi's spell.

If you were Goten, how many times does she have to kill you for you to not to want to invite her over for dinner? What if she accidentally killed your cat or dog? Do you think it would be no big deal if your dog ran away from people after getting resurrected by the dragon balls? If everyone remembers dying, does that include pets?

If my dog bit her, I probably wouldn't be too upset at the dog... I mean she did kill him once. Oops, the third time she killed your dog, it was because someone was controlling her. Yeah, I would not fault anyone who says that Bra is a danger to everything and everyone around her, and maybe... Just maybe... Needs to be removed for the safety of everyone around her. I don't think it is really that much of a mitigation that Babidi amplified the evil in her and controlled her.

She is dangerous, and I think it is naive to brush this incident off as no big deal.

But, you do you, boo.

Hey, do you think the Kais can do the powerup dance for her? Maybe she can even surpass Vegito.

Hey, did you ever have a little sibling pull your hair out? They are young, and your hair grows back. I hope you would not stop them just because it hurts. Get over yourself. Pain is irrelevant since there is no lasting damage.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: DBZFan92 was saying: Super Gojita 3 was saying: Fionordequester was saying: chstar was saying: Albeit it's unnecessary given Bra's sins are nowhere near as bad as Vegeta's. The point you keep missing.

Vegeta paid for his crimes; Bra didn't. The point you keep missing.

dude was saying: Wouldn't her sins be worse because she was supposed to be good from the start? While Vegeta was just being a bad guy because that's just how he came up?

Exactly. This is part of why you can't argue hypocrisy on the part of folks who like Vegeta, but hate Bra.

DarkClaw was saying: 1. That entire chapter is about how Bra didn't have control of SS1 at the time...

SSJ1 doesn't do anything but make you more "restless". Vegeta, Gohan, Goten, & Kid Trunks? No difference whatsoever. Namek!Goku changed very briefly when his best friend was murdered... Then he spared the murderer anyway. Even Broly was still sane when he went regular SSJ...



U18 Pan didn't act any differently either, during her first transformation:



Child Bra did not have a "murderous rampage" problem in her SSJ forms. Child Bra had a "murderous rampage" problem, period. SSJ2 and Majinization only made more obvious.

Current!Bra is a little better... But not enough to break the Majinization after slaying both Piccolos & Gohans.



>Vegeta paid for his crimes; Bra didn't. The point you keep missing.

personally I disagree with this. Unless the definition of retribution or amount is what we are referring to.


vegeta was spared on earth, despite getting his ass kicked, but this only made him stronger.

got his ass kicked on namek by zarbon, made him stronger and stole freezas db's.

got his ass kicked by recoome, made him stronger.

was given the chance to work with goku because according to goku his zenkai would make short work of jeice, but he betrayed his allies which would be a recurring theme across the sagas.

was killed by freeza and was revived within the day, sent to earth and lived in CC with bulma, lived in peace for like a year. trained for the androids.

got his ass kicked by 18 but surpassed that jazz with the assj form.

betrays his allies again, got his ass kicked, but he got to train more, and despite not killing cell he helped gohan kill him. was praised by piccolo.

7 years pass, goes majin and betrays his allies...again, kills a stadium of people. dies and is revived 2 days later.

I'm sure I left out a lot of context, but most of his punishments just made him stronger and he barely changed until the end.

Personally, I think vegeta was at his best on namek, but I would not say he was "punished" except perhaps in the narrative sense. He wasn't the strongest or the best. he outlasted freeza and goku by simply not dying, not because he killed them. he won "by default".

He pretty much killed bulmas boy friend, and later had a child with bulma. his seed created a ssj progeny who went on to save the future...until super.

Vegeta practically got rewarded for his bad behavior and only changed at the very end.

I don't know. I don't see much in terms of punishment, unless you count his poor W/L record. Some of this is satire. Disregard unless you want to have a legit conversation.


Well I don't know which parts of your post were supposed to be satire so I'm just going to respond without knowing. So, in your eyes, everything Vegeta went through isn't punishment whatsoever? At all? Throughout the entirety of Dragonball Z he was beat down and embarrassed (the occasions you stated). He was tortured and slaughtered by Frieza. He went to suffer in hell when he sacrificed himself (not the anime hell where they keep their body and seem to just hangout). He was beat down by Kid Buu while risking his entire existence being erased.

Vegeta had to "go to hell and back" throughout Dragonball Z, literally. There was a LOT of pain he had to go through. Much more than most people ever have to go through in their lifetime (even by DBZ standards). Pain is not fun.

I don't even like the comparison. It's apples and oranges. Bra hasn't gone through anything even close to what Vegeta went through (numerous times). Vegeta was a slave to Frieza while Bra was raised rich, raised with a brilliant mother, and has never had to face a threat that was stronger than her (unless you count the people she fought when she went SS2 in that special, but she still was stronger and killed them). She has never been humbled... until perhaps now... but considering every character seems to be absurdly excusing everything she did I doubt her behavior will change at all.

I don't know man, to each their own, but if you don't think all the pain, suffering, and embarrassment Vegeta had to go through is ANY kind of punishment... that's just crazy to me. I understand what you're getting at, yes he came out better because of it, he was lucky in the end, but that doesn't magically take away everything he went through. Trauma is a hell of a thing.

Thats kind of what I'm getting at. he basically got a slap on the wrist. then he got to live with the richest girl in the world.

He also got to train in the best training facilities too. any "punishment" he got was off set by the luxeries he had. He's really not the best person to look at as far as havign to pay for anything.

so he got beat up. a lot. I guess thats a start, but for a warrior race, and the idea of a zenkai boost, thats not much of a punishment. his torture by freeza lasted like a few minutes, then he died and was ressurected the same day.

He got, barely any real punishment. He also lived while goku died from cell. I mean, if feelign bad for what happened is a punishment, then bra suffered the same thing here.

anything he suffered was undone almost immediately.


Well I'm sorry, I don't mean to sound insulting, but in my opinion that's just asinine. If you don't think it was punishment enough I get that, but to say he wasn't punished at ALL? That was the whole point of the narrative with Vegeta. If I'm remembering correctly Toriyama stated that he took the worst traits a person can have (in his opinion) and put them together to make Vegeta. A person who is foolish, arrogant, boasting with pride, violent, mean, will have bad things happen to them. The narrative didn't try to excuse Vegeta's behavior such as it is with Bra here. It didn't pretend Vegeta was some misunderstood victim (unless you count when he cried, after his torture of course, then was killed by Frieza). Sure Goku let him live too, but that's Goku, who was a Saiyan that did foolish things to get a challenge.

The man literally went to hell. It was for what, like a week? Sure that's not very long... but it's hell. A place of eternal suffering and damnation. I sure would never want to go there if it was real, or I was in the DBZ universe, or I was in any universe where hell/purgatory existed.

So because he had good things happen to him that completely wipes away the bad things he went through. Man I truly wish that's how life worked.

Look, like I said before, I get where you're coming from (to a point) because he did get lucky in a lot of ways. You don't think he was punished accordingly for the sins he committed? Hell he probably wasn't. The good things that happened to him probably outweighed the bad. But to say he was never punished or didn't have to suffer AT ALL.... or that the good things that happened magically erase the bad... that just goes against the whole point of Vegeta's redemption. Part of his redemption and realization that he could be a better person came because of all his past trauma.

This is all pointless anyway, I doubt we'll change each other minds concerning Vegeta specifically. What isn't pointless, and is completely correct to say, is that Bra has never had to go through anything even close to what Vegeta did (it seems to me at least). As I also said before, personally, I don't think you can even compare them.

Harenghead was saying: Grash was saying: Both of you guys need to look up french gun laws and you will see what I mean. French culture is infused into this comic.
I wished you'd realize on your own that overgeneralizing an entire country to support an argument(based on what seems to be very limited knowledge to boot) might be a bad idea. Instead, you're doubling down, so that's just great.

Stricter gun laws, on top of really not being specific to France, can be cultural just like they can be logical, as more generalized access to tools of death promotes instability. At the same time, having a weapon makes one feel safer, I do get the reasoning, and that debate has no place here regardless; what I'm saying is, this is a poorly justified stretch. As for this comic being "pacifist", do we really need a death count? Or an exploding heads one?

You should probably drop this. Whether you're right or wrong, this is a bad argument to make in more ways than one. That's where I'll stop regardless, you all have a good one.

I will triple down on my comments. Look how the author is portraying a serial killer/mass murderer as a sympathetic character. If that is not pacifist I don't now what is. Just like how the pacifist "tolerance" aspect of french culture has led to numerous foreign invasions and terrorism. If salagir had protrayed bra getting her comeuppence then I would agree that this is not pacifist comic but as it stands if smiling while you kill your own brother in cold gets excused then the moral of the story is "no one is really evil."

DBZFan92 was saying: Super Gojita 3 was saying: Fionordequester was saying: chstar was saying: Albeit it's unnecessary given Bra's sins are nowhere near as bad as Vegeta's. The point you keep missing.

Vegeta paid for his crimes; Bra didn't. The point you keep missing.

dude was saying: Wouldn't her sins be worse because she was supposed to be good from the start? While Vegeta was just being a bad guy because that's just how he came up?

Exactly. This is part of why you can't argue hypocrisy on the part of folks who like Vegeta, but hate Bra.

DarkClaw was saying: 1. That entire chapter is about how Bra didn't have control of SS1 at the time...

SSJ1 doesn't do anything but make you more "restless". Vegeta, Gohan, Goten, & Kid Trunks? No difference whatsoever. Namek!Goku changed very briefly when his best friend was murdered... Then he spared the murderer anyway. Even Broly was still sane when he went regular SSJ...



U18 Pan didn't act any differently either, during her first transformation:



Child Bra did not have a "murderous rampage" problem in her SSJ forms. Child Bra had a "murderous rampage" problem, period. SSJ2 and Majinization only made more obvious.

Current!Bra is a little better... But not enough to break the Majinization after slaying both Piccolos & Gohans.



>Vegeta paid for his crimes; Bra didn't. The point you keep missing.

personally I disagree with this. Unless the definition of retribution or amount is what we are referring to.


vegeta was spared on earth, despite getting his ass kicked, but this only made him stronger.

got his ass kicked on namek by zarbon, made him stronger and stole freezas db's.

got his ass kicked by recoome, made him stronger.

was given the chance to work with goku because according to goku his zenkai would make short work of jeice, but he betrayed his allies which would be a recurring theme across the sagas.

was killed by freeza and was revived within the day, sent to earth and lived in CC with bulma, lived in peace for like a year. trained for the androids.

got his ass kicked by 18 but surpassed that jazz with the assj form.

betrays his allies again, got his ass kicked, but he got to train more, and despite not killing cell he helped gohan kill him. was praised by piccolo.

7 years pass, goes majin and betrays his allies...again, kills a stadium of people. dies and is revived 2 days later.

I'm sure I left out a lot of context, but most of his punishments just made him stronger and he barely changed until the end.

Personally, I think vegeta was at his best on namek, but I would not say he was "punished" except perhaps in the narrative sense. He wasn't the strongest or the best. he outlasted freeza and goku by simply not dying, not because he killed them. he won "by default".

He pretty much killed bulmas boy friend, and later had a child with bulma. his seed created a ssj progeny who went on to save the future...until super.

Vegeta practically got rewarded for his bad behavior and only changed at the very end.

I don't know. I don't see much in terms of punishment, unless you count his poor W/L record. Some of this is satire. Disregard unless you want to have a legit conversation.


Well I don't know which parts of your post were supposed to be satire so I'm just going to respond without knowing. So, in your eyes, everything Vegeta went through isn't punishment whatsoever? At all? Throughout the entirety of Dragonball Z he was beat down and embarrassed (the occasions you stated). He was tortured and slaughtered by Frieza. He went to suffer in hell when he sacrificed himself (not the anime hell where they keep their body and seem to just hangout). He was beat down by Kid Buu while risking his entire existence being erased.

Vegeta had to "go to hell and back" throughout Dragonball Z, literally. There was a LOT of pain he had to go through. Much more than most people ever have to go through in their lifetime (even by DBZ standards). Pain is not fun.

I don't even like the comparison. It's apples and oranges. Bra hasn't gone through anything even close to what Vegeta went through (numerous times). Vegeta was a slave to Frieza while Bra was raised rich, raised with a brilliant mother, and has never had to face a threat that was stronger than her (unless you count the people she fought when she went SS2 in that special, but she still was stronger and killed them). She has never been humbled... until perhaps now... but considering every character seems to be absurdly excusing everything she did I doubt her behavior will change at all.

I don't know man, to each their own, but if you don't think all the pain, suffering, and embarrassment Vegeta had to go through is ANY kind of punishment... that's just crazy to me. I understand what you're getting at, yes he came out better because of it, he was lucky in the end, but that doesn't magically take away everything he went through. Trauma is a hell of a thing.

Thats kind of what I'm getting at. he basically got a slap on the wrist. then he got to live with the richest girl in the world.

He also got to train in the best training facilities too. any "punishment" he got was off set by the luxeries he had. He's really not the best person to look at as far as havign to pay for anything.

so he got beat up. a lot. I guess thats a start, but for a warrior race, and the idea of a zenkai boost, thats not much of a punishment. his torture by freeza lasted like a few minutes, then he died and was ressurected the same day.

He got, barely any real punishment. He also lived while goku died from cell. I mean, if feelign bad for what happened is a punishment, then bra suffered the same thing here.

anything he suffered was undone almost immediately.

Turbocharger was saying: Majin Vegeta is different. We don't KNOW if Babidi unlocked SSJ2 for him. It's one of the most popular debates in the fandom. Even if he did, unlocking a transformation and mastering control of it are different.

Boscha196 was saying: Man people sure seem to be forgetful of the specifics of Majin Vegeta.

1. He gained control of SS2 after Majin wore off. He must likely did not have it at all before but he definitely noticed Goku had more power/control in the form. After he could use it no problem.

Wait - people are still debating this? It's very clear in the manga that Vegeta had SS2 prior to being Majin. Vegeta states several times that he's stronger than Gohan was when he fought Cell - there's no way a SSJ1 could be that powerful.

(sorry for the bad quality)




Notis was saying:

1:It doesn't have to do with majination but being released from it. Releasing herself from it is a similar process to controlling her ssj2 form. Therefore, by freeing herself, she took control of her power.Kakarot never broke free so he never took control of himself. Though, even if he did, I doubt he'd be sane as it's a slightly different issue than going berserk at ssj2.

Yea, this is how I understood it too. Or maybe that the thing holding her back from controlling SS2 was the very thing that Babidi latched on to to control her - and thus the very thing she had to overcome to free herself. I think that thing is something like "pride" (read as arrogance, superiority, etc.) or maybe "fear".

Duzzpartner was saying: So many people saying 'no consequences', when Bra has to live her entire life with Vegetto, Gohan, Pan, everyone, knowing she killed her brother, Piccolo, and thousands of innocents. But sure. She only gets rewarded for this.

The lot of you think the only punishment fitting is a permanent death, so you can satisfy your desire to see a 16-year old girl die.

Vampyrr was saying: Duzzpartner was saying: So many people saying 'no consequences', when Bra has to live her entire life with Vegetto, Gohan, Pan, everyone, knowing she killed her brother, Piccolo, and thousands of innocents. But sure. She only gets rewarded for this.

The lot of you think the only punishment fitting is a permanent death, so you can satisfy your desire to see a 16-year old girl die.

Dude replace her with any male and no one would care or defend them. The only reason she gets a pass is shes a pretty girl who people try to waifu. She gets the pretty girl sympathy free pass card. Didnt see anyone sticking up for any of the other majined characters like this.

This exactly how I see most of the comments. I think there are legitimate criticisms of the story and characters, but many (if not most) commenters don't seem to have rational reasons for hating Bra - they hate her just cause. That's why i used the term Bra-phobe - not because I think Bra is infallible, but rather because many fans hate her for no reason. I have my own criticisms of her too, but I'm not a Bra-phobe.

I wrote 19 comments and have been keeping up with the manga for 11 years by now. Just think about my ration of comments/ pages read.

To me, it's beyond question that some of you should -- I'd estimate this a 40-to-60% of commenters -- consider dropping the comic and moving to other outlets to pass your time more constructively.

Judging from the last 10 pages are so, the impression I have is that a handful of commenters here, especially, log in motived by the sole purpose to vent their frustrations in the comments section; rehashing the exact same bullet points, with an in-your-face attitude that would already be very off-putting if you were to pay for what you had just read; all the more for a "free-almost-made-for-fun" fanmade comic. You're not even getting mad over a Dragon Ball comic or videogame you paid for The very, very little semi-constructive criticism falls a good chunk of the time into CinemaSins territory, putting one page under microscopic. I understand this is somewhat natural, the release format lends itself to that, but... Jesus.

Allow me to add the point of view of someone's who has barely been involved with the comment section subculture. A more casual reader, if you may. You're hardly adding anything of value. You're definitely not changing the author's point of view (thankfully; as readers should stay the heck out of the creative process). The only thing you're achieving is, probably, making all the more "neutral" readers -- thousands, I suppose? Not sure about the daily visits, seems like the staff surpassed the 10k mark a decade ago -- like me glance at your daily comment filled with snark and roll their eyes.

I won't even start with the self-evident partisanship over every plot development, lack of nuance, the constant rush to judge the equivalent of a 10-second scene, and taking everything that happens in the comic personally -- as if this was a challenge between who can one up one another: the author, via the comic's developments, or the readers via the comments; which to me is crazy enough. The best way to describe most of you that I can think of is "smarks". These are pro-wrestling fans who deem themselves well-informed and and desiring to discuss the inner workings of the craft from a well-balanced, out-of-universe perspective ("smart"), but eventually use this only as a pretense to be "marks" (the ones who treat wrestling as real; say, that Hulk Hogan really ate all his vitamins before bed, quite sparse in this day and age). In other words, to viscerally "fanboy over" or "hate" what they instinctively like/ don't like, using pseudo-smart reasoning and critiques to rationalize what is just a visceral feeling they fall pray to.

Do something better with your time. You'll thank yourself, and maybe a lot of passersby will thank you too by not having to see your semi-weekly, rehashed meltdown packaged with a comic they may be interested in seeing develop.

UMW was saying: CaptainKashup was saying: You know what ?
I'm just going to enjoy this page and not look at the comments in the English section. I don't want gray hair.


That's the spirit! No honestly, this is the attitude I hope for most users. I hope everyone can both enjoy and/or loathe (aspects of) this comic freely.

DarkClaw was saying: Lol this page is for the bra-phobes

Like this. There's no need for this. The people who feel the need to defend this nonsense are just being insecure and obnoxious. Like what you like.

@Turbocharger

>"If only I was able to do that. I guess I just find debates like this to be too tempting. XD"

Well, I mean at least you're cool about it. There's nothing wrong with debate or discussing opposite ideas. But you're also not making up false shit for the sake of defending the comic and then hypocritically demonizing everyone who doesn't.

@slushie

Are you confusing SSJ 2 with Full Powered/Mastered SSJ 1?

@Duzzpartner

Lol you just named a list of people, sans Vegito, who can't do SHIT to Bra, including Gohan (who's dead rn, but will probably forgive her too.) And you're completely ignoring the fact that if she wasn't eventually forgiven by say Vegito, Pan etc she's being defended by everyone else there.

So... What consequences?

EDIT: also, a lot of generalizing there. The whole dramatic "you just want to see a 16 year old die!!!"

@Eddboy

>"1. I think it's pretty much established that the abilities you gain from Majinization stay after you've broken free. Ex: Vegeta retaining the ability to go SSJ2. "

I'm not saying you're wrong but to play devil's advocate... Someone raised a good point about the circumstances of becoming Majinized and the level of difficulty that must be overcame to resist it.

The consensus was " Vegeta was just one example and not enough to go by. He could have been the exception." In fairness, the same benefit of the doubt (or lack thereof) should apply here. We don't know, and what Bra seems to have gained is unprecedented and vastly different than what Vegeta may have gained.

I'm trying to take a neutral stance for this particular page. I spent a lot of time defending Vegito AND Bra, and although I'm still enjoying the chapter, I don't want one to be demonized just to redeem the other. A big part of why I love Vegito and Bra's toxic dynamic so much is because it was more nuanced than that. The second half of the U16 special was practically dedicated to stating Vegito's case, but it still showed how traumatized Bra was and didn't demonize her just to prop up Vegito on the moral scale.

Preferably, I would want this chapter to do the exact same thing for Bra too. Show the other side of the story from a different perspective... Without writing off the other.

So far it doesn't seem to be doing that. Gast and Gotenks are just trying to reason with him. But if it escalates into "Vegito sucks!" and disregards how much of a sympathetic character he's been so far, it hurts Bra as a character just as much as it does Vegito.


An gentleman was saying: Just wondering, since Babidi is still alive and Vegetto is getting angrier, could Babidi try to control him if Buu let him go?
I mean, Vegetto could probably break free easily, but would he be considered "pure of heart" in his current state?

I don't think Vegito's ever been pure, but it's especially possible now.

But Babidi didn't even take his chances with the version of Vegeta who was blatantly evil, so it would have to be a last resort.

Of course, Cell proves that even purely villainous characters can resist Babidi if they are just that damn awesome.

Grash was saying: IIRC Salagir is french. French culture is extremely pacifist. They don't believe you have the right to use deadly force even in a life-or-death defense situation. This is why salagir called eliminating Bra "murder." In truth, killing Bra is more than justified but consider the background of the writer.

Also In my OPINION: Bra is a projection of some high school unrequited love that Salagir had. Notice how she is flawless and even when she is wrong the narrative twists to make her "right." Here are many examples

Flaw: She is a disrespectful bitch
Justification: Her daddy was a meanie


Flaw: She is selfish and doesn't want to protect others
Justification: She is too powerful to need to care

Flaw: She went on a mass murdering spree
Justification: A wizard did it.


See how she is never written to be in the wrong even when she became a school shooter! She is meant to be unattainable just like a high school girl who is out of your league. No matter how evil she is towards you, you just make excuses for her. Just like what Salagir does to Bra.

I never thought of that. I don't know much about foreign culture but the differences in values and beliefs often does have an effect on how a story is written and how people respond to it.

I wish I spoke French. I wonder what the French DBM community thinks of Vegito and Bra.


J.I.L was saying: Alright, i'm starting to see the wisdom of the out cry my comrades were making in the few pages prior. Their troubling foresight of the events to come seems to have a lot of merits.

For now, i'll just wait a few more pages to see if this author really is going to write a partisan and bias story trying to preach his "Morality" on the readers.

At the moment Vegito hasn't been demonized just YET. Fingers crossed that the story remains at the "We're trying to reason with your right now Vegito!" Phase and doesn't actually jump on over to the "SCREW YOU VEGITO EVERYTHING IS YOUR FAULT AMD TOU SUCK ASS!" phase.

As both a sympathizer of Bra and a huge fan of Vegito, I personally do not think that would quite be the best way to approach this.


Dr Raichi was saying: U18 Gohan is dead right?
So u18 Bra is SMILING at the person she saw KILL her Gohan 2 minutes ago.
And is defending her.

And even if you argue "mind control" she's SMILING.
You don't SMILE at the person who killed Gohan 30 seconds ago.

This is the most tone deaf page in this entire comic.

Cover suggests that he is alive.

Of course, no one in the story knows that right now.

I'm fine with U18 Bra defending her counterpart, especially since she gave her the dressing down needed to break free. But having her actually be happy is... Mood whiplash?

I can't believe the amount of reaching some do just to justify hating on Bra and every character that stands up for her xD

And what is up with the dozens of comments overly criticizing the translation? Could you guys be any more nitpicky?

Everyone who read dbz should be more or less capable of telling that Gotenks saying "you wanted his control" is referring to Vegeta wanting the majin seal for the power boost... Don't take everything too literally, like cmon. Do you guys never use a less convenient wording in your conversations?

DarkClaw was saying: Lol this comment section is ridiculous. Whoever told me there aren't bra-phobic fans commenting anymore needs to look no further than this page's comments.
Right??? Right?! Bra just needs to breathe and everyone freaks out xD

Memati was saying: And what is up with the dozens of comments overly criticizing the translation? Could you guys be any more nitpicky?

Because it'd be better if Salagir listened to his own translators:

https://www.dragonball-multiverse.com/en/page-1257.html

Salagir was saying: @Meister Kleister : FYI, based on some of the other translations, what Vegetto said in the last panel might better be translated to something like: "Even my little Bra can't reach a tenth of my level. No one in any universe can."

This error it my full choice (it may not be a good one, but it's on purpose and not the fault of the english translators ^^).

Here is the discussion that happened between me and my proodreaders:
(Context: He changes "can" to "is" and I say no.)
npberryhill:
This sentence is incomplete. No one in any universe can... can what? That's why I changed it to "is" previously. But I think it can be fixed by changing the previous sentence slightly so it's a direct response the way I think you want. "Even my little Bra can't come close to a tenth of my level." That would make the second sentence work fine I think.
Salagir:
The french version contains the same "error".
The 2 sentences don't fit perfectly with each others: Yes. It's talk. He doesn't prepare his text in advance... It doesn't need to be all calculated and perfectly fitting.
He modify his "argumentation" over time. First, he says she is not strong enough. Then, he adds that well, no one can be that strong enough anyway.
npberryhill:
Okay, cool. I agree we should strive to be as close to the original as possible. Well, if I can, let me suggest we add one word to the end of the second sentence then? "No one in any universe can be." It's small, I don't think it changes meaning, only fixes.
(I still refused, cause i'm a troll)

> Dr Raichi
>And for gods sake, change that ridiculous "you wanted his control, that's why you never obeyed him" line already! Can't be that hard. Just change the dialoque! Do you need an english lanquage professor to tell you you're assaulting the english language with your grammar?

I imagine you'll be wanting me to forward my british passport as well as my translation degree certificates?
I'm also, heaven forbid, not the only translator on board, there's also Nyber who proof reads everything and 2-3 others who chime in here and there.

That you don't like the dialogue is fine, that you say you can do better is fine. That you become down right insulting is... well, insulting. And uncalled for.

P.S: Gast, no "h". But afterall, who am I to say anything right?

Dr Raichi was saying: DBFan was saying: chstar was saying: Duzzpartner was saying: Watch as this thread turns into "Mary Sue! Obvious favorite! No sympathy! Let her die!" and then people pretending ignoring that they're favorite Vegeta did much worse than Bra in his life and none of them want him dead. Hmmm, I wonder what the main difference between Vegeta and Bra is? Why would people excuse Vegeta but not Bra, the 16-year old teenage girl?

well said. I couldn't agree more. She deserves a second chance after Vegeta got...what? 5? The reason some are lashing out as Bra is not for the reasons they are stating...
I believe that Vegeta should have died years before he actually did. As such Bra should recive punishment as well. Side note the reason I can even tolerate Vegeta is cause he constantly gets his ass kick which is cathartic.
But now that I think about it Bra seems to be on a similar path to Vegeta. Does horrible things is forgiven (despite doing nothing to earn it) gets rewards.
Heck they even have weird defenders Bra Defenders Vegeta fanboys. The main difference and the reason this is better than the way Vegeta is treated is because people in story actually try to stop the monster instead of having the genocidal monster live in their home.


What do you mean "Die years before he actually did?" Vegeta died twice. The first time was against Frieza. That wasn't even after a year.
And the people who keep saying Vegeta that, Vegeta this...

Vegeta constantly got his ass kicked. We also saw him struggle and fight in life and death situations. Bra has NEVER gotten her ass kicked. NEVER.
If Vegeta would have Bra's character. I would have hated him just as much as I hate Bra. I like Vegeta because I can relate to him. He fights for his dreams and overcomes obstacle after obstacle... Bra is an overpowered teenager who walks around with senzu beans in her pocket.
Sorry what I mean is Vegeta should have stayed dead in the Freeza saga
On your last point though I agree with you if you're talking about Saiyan/Freeza saga Vegeta. Because I think that period of the character is his best version. However if you're talking about Cell/Buu Saga Vegeta I have to disagree with you. Because that era of Vegeta is a whiney man baby who screws everyone one over and gets no consequences for actions. Heck Majin Vegeta is the biggest case of this Vegeta gets a power up murders thousands and then gets no real consequences for those actions. But like I said the reason I can tolerate Vegeta more than Bra is because he gets his ass kicked because he is a massive asshole and deserves it. The main reason I can tolerate Vegeta more than Bra is cause Vegeta is actually a villan and not an in your own word overpowered teenager with senzu beans in her pocket and Vegeta can get taken down a peg.

chstar was saying: Duzzpartner was saying: Watch as this thread turns into "Mary Sue! Obvious favorite! No sympathy! Let her die!" and then people pretending ignoring that they're favorite Vegeta did much worse than Bra in his life and none of them want him dead. Hmmm, I wonder what the main difference between Vegeta and Bra is? Why would people excuse Vegeta but not Bra, the 16-year old teenage girl?

well said. I couldn't agree more. She deserves a second chance after Vegeta got...what? 5? The reason some are lashing out as Bra is not for the reasons they are stating...
I believe that Vegeta should have died years before he actually did. As such Bra should recive punishment as well. Side note the reason I can even tolerate Vegeta is cause he constantly gets his ass kick which is cathartic.
But now that I think about it Bra seems to be on a similar path to Vegeta. Does horrible things is forgiven (despite doing nothing to earn it) gets rewards.
Heck they even have weird defenders Bra Defenders Vegeta fanboys. The main difference and the reason this is better than the way Vegeta is treated is because people in story actually try to stop the monster instead of having the genocidal monster live in their home.

Yikes... my comrades from Camp 2 are not happy.

Guys.... relax. If there was someone who'd call BS on this whole Bra thingy, it would be me. And based on this page, nothing really is offensive. Gotenks saying "Bra's a victim" is just his little opinion. Nothing more. If the story writes itself out with gotenks ended up fortelling what the author thinks and plans to do with Bra - okay, that'll be bad. But for now, all we know is just that gotenks is giving his sperective as the child he is. Nothing more.
So no.... Bra is not established as DBM canon as being a "faultless victim".

TIme to hit the replies:



Ashanark was saying: 1. Why is this Gotenks, fused of U16 Goten/U18 Trunks, calling Vegito "father?" Are they that interchangeable? Why is the first time Gotenks has ever been serious ever... to defend Bra? Half of him doesn't know Bra! The other version of him was killed by Bra!

2. "Brainwashed by surprise?" Hmm... if only the story showed us that. Instead of just informing us of the circumstances of Bra's offscreen Majinization and using them as an excuse to completely victimize and forgive her.

3. People originally said Bra wasn't a Creator's Pet because she couldn't resist immediately like Vegeta did, showing her as worse... and now the story's praising Bra for not resisting immediately like Vegeta did, showing her as better. So Bra, who did far worse things as a Majin than Vegeta ever did (Vegeta didn't chop Bulma in half and ask for more), is now morally superior than the man who never killed his family as a Majin (and in fact, hugged them.) And then died to atone. Knowing he'd go to hell.

4. As the cherry on top, we get to see the complete assassination of Vegito's character.

Vegito, who when Bra nearly killed him in space, didn't say a word about it but instead praised her for saving his life. Vegito, who specifically went out of his way to stop Bra from torturing Zangya. Vegito, who specifically took Bra out as a space cop when she was younger to teach her to protect innocents (and specifically made sure she wasn't killing people.) Vegito, who taught Bra special techniques even after she killed billions. Who kept Bra "from lashing out for years." Who Bra damaged in the HTC, yet he didn't even scratch in return. Who Gohan and Piccolo relied upon to stop Bra when she got out of hand. (Note how this page retcons that into a bad thing?) Who never shot back when Bra insulted him. Whom Bra, when Vegito rescued her from Ginyu, was surprised that he hurt her, showing such behavior was unusual. Who Salagir labeled as a "perfect master" of his emotions. Who went out of his way to protect the Vargas at the tournament despite not being asked to. Who was always worried about his potential offspring being a threat to the universe. Vegito, who is faced with the tough choice of picking either the universe's safety or his daughter, and picked the universe...

...is in the wrong. Completely. And Bra is absolutely guiltless. And apparently no one in U16--not Bulma (whom the story's never cared about enough to give even a single scene with her daughter), or Gohan, or anyone--is in any way at fault. Just Vegito. How is that "morally grey?"
Spoiler, click to show(Note: The U1 Kais killed potential threats as babies to keep the universe safe, purely on the chance they would be a problem, and yet the Kais are still un-Majinizable and therefore pure good. Vegito tries to kill someone with two confirmed killing sprees and he's out-of-line?)This is the culmination of a months-long retcon, all for Bra's sake. It was clear back in June, and it's only gotten more blatant since. Complete with sympathetic angles, shading, and yes, even googly eyes, now combined with manipulating our instinctive response to seeing a young girl get hit by an adult male. (If Bra were a guy, this scenario would be very different.) We've seen a character with exactly one positive quality--that she shed a tear for Pan once--kill families and friends while laughing and boasting, and had the ability to break free but only did so when her strength was challenged... just receive a full-on pardon with no lasting consequences while her dad gets retconned into an abusive father and thrown under the bus.

...What?
1. Vegito is universe 16 goten's father. So it would make sense to call him "dad". U18 gotenks would call vegeta or Goku, dad. And bulma or Chi chi - Mom.
Nothing of a big deal.

2. He's not wrong. I doubt Bra was asking to get seduced by Babidi like Vegeta was, but she cave to the full enchantment rather easily and reveled in it.
And it's quite obvious. Bra went to sleep, then became magin. It's obvious Babidi attacked her without her wishes. Gotenks himself wouldn't know that, just hypothesiszing that it is the case.
Bra, in a sense, IS a victim. Majinization due rig your senses and desires - but they can only rig what is already there; so Bra is a vicim, but she's not faultless in the slightest. And who said anything about forgiving her. All gotenks is saying, let's make this decision as a family unit instead of vegetto acting as a autocratic king.

3. Just like @UMV , you two got to stop trying to intercept what the author is trying to tell in every page. Let the story play itself out. Every time some character says someonthign remotley sympathetic to bra, it's:
"OH MY GOSH! SALAGIR IS SPEAKING THROUGH THE CHARACTER TO CONFIRM BRA IS INNOCENT!"
Stop looking at these characters as like they are possed by the author to say what he wants, and not how in-universe it is believable how these characters would actually react to such a situation.
The story isn't saying Bra handled anything better then when vegetto was vegeta. All gotenks is doing is just pushing back on how vegetto is not innocent and foreign to be coerced by babidi.

4.Again, no one has said vegetto is in the wrong here: they are just telling... really pleading with vegetto, actually.... to HOLD ON and let's discuss as a family, first before any course of actions are made.
And there's no retcon from vegetto, here. Vegetto in the beggining of the tournament acting like Goku around bra, to vegito now being more like a vegeta at his most ruthless is no character assination nor character retconning. It's more just character REVELATIONS.
P.S - it's one of the reasons why Vegetto is my favorite character in Z and DBM. I have such a personality. Some may see it as bi-polar, but sometimes I can be very kind and amicable to others. Sometimes I can be stern and cold to others. SOmetimes I can be forgiving and merciful, sometimes I can be ruthless.
This is the way many people are IRL. And vegetto being son goku as well as vegeta who still hasn't completed 100% his character arc... and you could argue has now regressed due to having the total power of vegetto and no one to telling what to do.
I don't see any retcons or "character assasinations" of Vegito.


FieryJinx was saying: I like seeing a "dumb" character like Gotenks make a good point occasionally and showing that they're smarter in some ways than you would give them credit for, but... it's weird seeing Gotenks lecture so calmly and reasonably. It would make more sense for him to express himself through an outburst, even if he's still saying pretty much the same thing.
Agreed on the first part. Not on the 2nd part. Remember, gotenks is an adult. He isn't "kid gotenks", anymore.



Squirz was saying: Ashanark was saying: 1.
Spoiler, click to show(Note: The U1 Kais killed potential threats as babies to keep the universe safe, purely on the chance they would be a problem, and yet the Kais are still un-Majinizable and therefore pure good. Vegito tries to kill someone with two confirmed killing sprees and he's out-of-line?)

Yup, U1 Kais would have killed Bra right after her birth as soon as they find out about her. However, killing her would be cheap. Lock her powers like I suggested in forums. That way, she would know what is like to be a weakling and work for strength.



CaptainKashup was saying: HOT DAMN GOTENKS THE MVP
I love when mostly gag characters get serious like this. Gotenks is like, 30 something, it makes sense for him to be able to get serious.
Everything about that page is just.. so good.

Ashanark was saying: 1. This Gotenks is a fusion of U16 Goten and U18 Trunks. So why is he calling Vegito "father?" Are they that interchangeable?



Also, this is not U16 and U18 Trunks fusion.
Both are U16. We saw Trunks U18 tending to U18 Goten a few page before.
But I guess making false claims is one way to help your argument. (I'm not talking about your entire post.)

>HOT DAMN GOTENKS THE MVP
Neither Trunks or Goten of U16 where shown to be helpful with Bra situation. He is like SJW talking about all injustices in the world but actually doing nothing to improve situation offhand. Besides Vegetto only Gohan was shown to be somewhat trying to take care of Bra.






SSJ Your Nick was saying: He's right. Vegeta couldn't have known for sure if he could handle Babidis control, and only did it for a fairly small boost in power.

Bra never asked for it. She didn't fight it, but she wasn't possessed willingly.

Anyway, I'm guessing Vegetto will pick Gohan's body up by the neck and state he'll kill them all if he has to in a couple of pages.


Her Majinization cirmustances where never showed or explained. Gotenks here is making assumptions. Also we have Cell who was also possesed by element of surprise.


Turbocharger was saying:

Cell was a double agent so he might have seen it as an opportunity to plot against Babidi. The page where he tells U18 Bra about his nucleus also has him revealing to her that he knew all along that her counterpart was Majinized.


Cell was still possesed by element of surprise. Before he got Majinized he had no knowledge that Bra is or was going to be Majinized. Only thing you could actually argue is that Cell allowed himself to be Majin, so Gohan would fight him. Either way, before getting Majinized he could have no prior knowledge about Babidi's plans.
Idk what you mean by "cheap". Her being permantley executed would be satisfying for me. She gets disgraced in fashion, plus we don't ever get to see her again in the story as living. That sounds like a W-W to me.

"He is like SJW talking about all injustices in the world but actually doing nothing to improve situation offhand"

Hm.... I would love to indulge this comment but 1. It would be against the rules
2. Out of subject
3. Turn this comment section into a ceespool
And latter two I could give less then a dam about because i'd be enjoying myself, but I have to follow the rules of number 1. A shame we have rules of what topics we can bring up. Remember when the internet first was coming about, and how online comment forums used to be free anarchy? sighs... Good times. Make comment sections great again... oops: Was I suppose to say that? AHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

Agreed on the cell-Bra comment sections. Vegetto and camp 2 are correct, Bra's actions are UNACCETABLE and she's not a faultless victim like, naively, gotenks is making her out to be.



AllEyesOnMe was saying: Man if only Gast wasnt here to play Reddit Mod with his BS magical powers. For damn sake keep your self righteous monologue to yourself this is a family issue. Speaking if which the entire arena is filled with the stench of the scorched corpses of Bra’s episode and yet Gotenks is here personally reading to us his cherry picked arguments from the comment section of the last 5 chapers of DBM.
lol, like I said. Camp 2 is mad AF. Evidence of this comment.



Turbocharger was saying: Ashanark was saying: CaptainKashup was saying: The novelization isn't entirely canon.Salagir said on page 1701 that he reads and proofreads it... so why wouldn't it be "canon"? He may want to publicly say it's not, though, since the Bra vs. Cold fight lavishes praise upon Bra as awe-inspiring and a good person... completely contrary to Salagir saying she's not supposed to be likable or a good person. It also says Goten and Trunks have had many happy memories with Bra, which is contrary to Bra being portrayed as a traumatized, abused individual as we've "learned" this arc.

CaptainKashup was saying: Also, the heroes have been stuck there for longer then a Gotenks fusion can last.
The Trunks probably took turns with the one Goten.On page 1556, Android 16 says it's only been nine and a half minutes. If the fight against Bra took twice that (which is very, very generous)... they'd still be fused.

@Fionordequester
Good post. Short but sweet. Those minicomics are very telling.

But didn't Salagir also point out the novel isn't always accurate? I remember it was pointed out that Kakarot's immortality contradicted a statement made in the novel.
Yes, before I entered this DBM as a profile, I used to observe the comment section. I remember the ruckus of Kakarot's immortality. One speific commenter made a huge gripe about it. what was his name, again? whatever happened to that guy? I don't see him around, anymore.



DarrielOni was saying: So...
— Bra continues to be a Creator's Pet. Having the plot bend itself in all sorts of impossible shapes to make her look better.
— People defending Bra against non-existant Mary Sue accusations again???
— Salagir continues to have the story contradict what he stated in the comments

Nothing new here, I guess?

This single page managed to add FOUR whole entries to the list of retcons made to favor Bra. Most impressive!

— Gotenks is no longer a fusion of both universes. Now he is only U16 so that he can better stand up for Bra
— Some barely comprehensible line about Vegeta being able to defy Babidi because he let hismelf be taken over???
— Gotenks went from a gag fusion of two characters who barely bother to train or raise Bra (since apparently Vegetto did it all alone or something) to a serios character who is all about sharing responsibility.
— Being taken by surprise means you can't resist the Majin spell, even though Cell was caught by surprise and still broke free.

I have tried so hard to remain respectful in my criticism of Bra's awful arc, but with all of this favoritism it's honestly hard not to bring back the dreaded W-word that bothered Salagir enough to make a mini comic last time.

1. Wrong - gotenks is the fusion of universe 16 goten, and universe 18 trunks. And you can tell it's evident in the diolouge when gotenks, probably due to Trunks influence, referred to vegetto as being culpable for the actions of vegeta. In DBM's lore, universe 16 vegetto and vegeta are two differnt beings and entities.

2. It was a whack line, see @Riachi to get the real interpretation of what gotenks meant to say.

3. Gotenks is a person with personalities. Just because he's usally a clown does not mean he can't act serious when serious situation call for it. He's an adult you know?

4. Nothing is ever established like that. Gotenks is just giving his diatribe to defend his little sister. Don't take what he says as canon to how things ARE. Let the story itself showcase that first, before we jump to conclusions of author intentions.

So no retcons.
W-word?

Dr Raichi was saying: J.I.L was saying: JoshuaVv was saying: People are still picking sides over this? Why is that even a discussion? Is it not possible they're BOTH in the wrong while also BOTH being victims to unresolved issues? Isn't that kind of the fucking point of this arc? The arc is about how the pressures of being Vegito and Vegito's legacy can maybe not be all space adventures and cool fun fighting. Maybe there's some real toxicity in the saiyan way of raising children that Vegito has no idea of since he's been raised (twice over) to believe fighting and power is everything.

Vegito has it in his head that if ANYTHING is stronger than him, then it might be too dangerous to even exist. And he's also expected to be the protector of EVERYTHING, personally appointed by the gods to be the world's muscle. He can't cover it all, no matter how fast his instant transmission is. He relies on the implication of his strength to control everything he actively can't. So, if something defies him (like when Bra transformed and blocked his attack) he gets PISSED, because he's not in control anymore. His overwhelming power and fighting knowledge did absolutely nothing in preparing him for not only raising a kid, but raising a very DANGEROUS kid who is also meant to be his direct successor.

It's also really important to remember the kind of mindset Vegeta and Goku were when they fused. Vegeta regressed into the darkest part of himself and caused Buu to happen. Even sacrificing his life couldn't fix that. Goku became complacent and relied on his kids to protect themselves. He failed leading them to victory multiple times in the Buu arc. The kids learning fusion just got them absorbed, and him letting his guard down when they unfused inside of Buu caused Gohan to be absorbed right after. Not only were they not strong enough to fight Buu, but they couldn't trust their own judgement anymore.

So you got two saiyans that lost nearly all their self respect and confidence, and the only way they know how to fix it is: 1. Not be themselves and 2. Be stronger. That's where fusion comes in. It's a chance for both Vegeta and Goku to fix their mistakes and be someone else who is smarter (for Goku), more noble (for Vegeta), and STRONG AS FUCK! Vegito is each fusee's ideal self. And if that idea is shaken at all, then what was the point of giving EVERYTHING up to become him? Is he just back to square one? Isn't Vegito supposed to be the guy who's able to handle it? Take care of it? After all

"How did you beat Buu if you and Vegeta didn't fuse IN ORDER TO BECOME ME?" That is one of the first thing Vegito ever even says. It's important because it establishes that Vegito thinks himself as The Solution. His godcomplex was established on his first page, and they come from insecurities from the fusee's as well as the pressure of being this unstoppable hero he sees himself as. That's ALSO why he got so pissed when XXII teleported him out. His power was useless. He had no control. Being Vegito wasn't enough.

And all, ALL of that is reflected in how he treats Bra. He places all of the pressure he feels onto her. But she's a CHILD who hasn't experienced the hardships and understands the extent of her power like he does. She was told from a very young age "you're dangerous, but you need to learn how to use your power to protect everyone. So, become the Arm of God, but also be good or I'm gonna fucking kill you." That shit is SO confusing to Bra. She's gotta be strong and powerful, but everyone tells her to be afraid of it, to always hold back and NOT be herself. Her selfesteem and self confidence is in the shitter, because she's only ever told being herself is dangerous and she needs to be like someone else: like daddy.

They are BOTH fucked up people in a fucked up relationship. But NONE of it is malicious, it's just them not getting the proper guidance in how to handle who they are.
Yikes... dude. This is dragon ball, not some teenage soap opera. And these beings are SAYAJINS... not drama queens in high school. Vegetto's purpose is to keep the universe SAFE. Bra puts that at risk, and he has given her warnings but she has tried his patience and now he deems she is too dangerous to be kept alive because of her history of massive destruction. Therefore he wants her EXECUTED. Simple as that. There's nothing more relevant that meets the eye. If Bra behaved in a way that shows she can keep the universe safe, none of this wuld happen and she would be vegetto's heir.



Dr Raichi was saying: Captain Carbonite was saying: Dr Raichi was saying: Can someone give Ghast an actual personality?
All I've seen him do is give people lectures. What does he like to do in his free time?
What are his hobby's.

Like come on, I get it, he's "the enlightned all knowing Namek" but that gets boring after a while.
Well he is a mixture of every Namekian, Namekians dont exactly have the most exciting personalities as it is, and im sure most qualities cancel each other out.

Nonsense, you are only saying that because many nameks are just background characters who all look alike.
The nameks who were important to the story had very destinct personalities.

Kami, Demon king Piccolo, Nail, Guru, Dende they were all clearly different from each other and none of them were stoic.
The only stoic Namekian we have is Piccolo jr.

Gasts entire personality seems to be giving people speeches like he's budha and have magic powers as the plot wants it.
Give him a distinct personality would you.

That's the problem with original characters. They are supposed to be introduced properly to the audience. But because DBM has so many characters, Salagir can't do this properly without slowing down the story to a crawl.

So he has to do it in specials. We saw some of Ghasts personality in that one special. Where he seemed to have a ruthless side. And a humerous side.
I want more of that. I'm sick of "Let me give you deep mindblowing speeches despite knowing nothing about you" Ghast.

In fact, I want specials about all the interesting universes. And I don't give a shit about the uninteresting ones. (Broly's secund return, anything Bojack related, universe 16)

That's 17 universes to show.

I mean, look at u13. There's a LOT of material right there. I know there was an artist who said he wanted to do them. So Salagirs gotta have some specials of that lying around right?

Honestly I don't care about u9 anymore. Chewys has already established a damn good story about that universe. So why bother.
oh oh oh: Special request time? I have a ton of specials I'm interested in:
Universe 3:
Raichi/Sayain war

Universe 7:
Ghast vs cell and Buu
Fate of Vegeta
Fate of earth

Universe 9:
Battle against sayains, Cooler and babidi.

Universe 11:
Battle on earth against the Z fighters and androids.

Universe 13:
Battle on namek
spin-off Orginal adventure stories with vegeta as emporor

Universe 16:
Hirudagarn

Universe 17:
Cell vs. Bojack
spin-off Orginal adventure stories

Universe 20:
Broly's third coming

U9 just read chewys comic. We are at the saiyan saga. I"m taking that as canon.

Broly's 3d coming will just be Broly going legendary, killing everyone, then going on a rampage in the universe. Don't really need to see that.

U13 yeah, I'd love to see that. Also when Vegita becomes emperor he's gonna get challenged by everyone around him probably. For example, Paragus will surely know about Vegita's empire. So he's gonna come to Vegita for his revenge. Wonder how that went down. Also something caused Kakarotto to become a super saiyan and something caused Vegeta to go ssj2. So we'll be busy for a long time.

Universe 7: fun fact, Vegeta actually surpassed Goku and became a super saiyan before him here.

So Vegeta accomplishes his lifelong goal of surpassing Goku... In the one universe where he doesn't care. It's also the only universe where he was dissapointed after becoming a ssj. In every other universe his ego swells immensely. But here he despairs that he's still weaker.

Honestly his fate will depend on whether he thinks there is a level beyond super saiyan to reach for or not.
It will be interesting to see how Goku fares. Especially if Vegeta fufils his promise of returning to Earth to finish him off this time. All Goku's friends are dead (sans Krillin) So he only has his wife, son, best buddy and Bulma left.
"Chewy comic"? Mind you drop the link. I'd love to check it out. I'm in a mood to read/discuss dragon ball what-ifs!

But aren't you interested in the fight of a post buu-arc cast Vs. Broly? How was broly able to defeat ultimate gohan, gotenks, goku and vegeta? Did Goku and vegeta not fuse into gogeta? I just find it very perplexing how a post Buu-saga Z cast somehow lost to Broly of all people. Unless, U20 and U18 took differnt turns in the Buu saga. Maybe in U20, majin buu was never hatched. So goku stayed dead, goten and trunks never learned fusion and gohan never got his potential unlocked. Who knows? I want to find out.

Exactly. Though the cast seems to not know of Broly in universe 13. So maybe they never meet paragus.

Dam, universe 7 is dark for the earthlings. I believe they end up getting killed by the androids. Cell then aborbs the androids. Destroys earth then ventures out only to be defeated by Ghast. I wonder how Buu is hatched though.

Vegeta's ssj transformation was dumb. He achived ssj against the ginyu force? Lame. I wonder what becomes of him. He probably gets killed by ghast.



JoshuaVv was saying: J.I.L was saying:
Yikes... dude. This is dragon ball, not some teenage soap opera. And these beings are SAYAJINS... not drama queens in high school. Vegetto's purpose is to keep the universe SAFE. Bra puts that at risk, and he has given her warnings but she has tried his patience and now he deems she is too dangerous to be kept alive because of her history of massive destruction. Therefore he wants her EXECUTED. Simple as that. There's nothing more relevant that meets the eye. If Bra behaved in a way that shows she can keep the universe safe, none of this wuld happen and she would be vegetto's heir.

This is Dragon Ball, and yet we have pages of people arguing whether or not Vegito is a domestic abuser or if Bra is an insane psychopath. We've had Piccolo explode into gibblets right before our very eyes, Gohan cut in half, and a dad threaten his child and probably kick all her ribs to dust (forget why for now). Some pretty intense violence for even dragon ball.

This isn't Dragon Ball as written by Akira Toriyama. This is Dragon Ball as written by Asura and Salagir. It's going to be interpreted differently and they may want to look critically at some things that happen in the series that are normal and show how maybe normalizing all that shit has it's own problems.

Yes! They are Saiyans. And Saiyans have a pretty dark culture if you think about it realistically. It isn't Goku and Vegeta saving the world, it's people beating and killing each other just for fun. And before I go further with that: no I don't think that's a bad thing in the general sense. We can have our fun DBZ/DBS adventures of hype and victory while also maybe taking a different tone and thought to the world and characters in it. And trivializing some pretty prevalent and very real issues to "dramaqueen" status really downplays how damaging all of that can be. THAT is bad.

I really enjoy the writers exploring that side of Dragon Ball, since I think someone should. It's a critical look, but that doesn't mean it's bad, it's just a balance of the fun and the serious. I think it's damn cool they're going this route and really love what they're doing to my-favorite-all-time DB character: Vegito. I like they built his own personality and explored the issues he may have as a person, not just "SUPER SAIYAN HERO-MAN VEGITO! YOSHA!" I love that shit, but I also love thinking about how he'd be in his day-to-day life. Seeing how he's been in this series has helped that. That includes these dark moments where we wonder just how righteous our hero is.

Will he prevail, understand his own flaws, and use his new wisdom to help his daughter grow? Or will he succumb to his anger and fear of Bra putting the universe in danger and kill/neutralize her? I'm excited to find out!
Lame. I wouldn't be surprised if they take the story there, but I hope they do not. Self reflection? dumb AF. Bra is an insane murdereous maniac. There should not be any coombiyah in the future. Vegetto is right, she needs to be put down or in someway forever cursed.

JoshuaVv was saying: People are still picking sides over this? Why is that even a discussion? Is it not possible they're BOTH in the wrong while also BOTH being victims to unresolved issues? Isn't that kind of the fucking point of this arc? The arc is about how the pressures of being Vegito and Vegito's legacy can maybe not be all space adventures and cool fun fighting. Maybe there's some real toxicity in the saiyan way of raising children that Vegito has no idea of since he's been raised (twice over) to believe fighting and power is everything.

Vegito has it in his head that if ANYTHING is stronger than him, then it might be too dangerous to even exist. And he's also expected to be the protector of EVERYTHING, personally appointed by the gods to be the world's muscle. He can't cover it all, no matter how fast his instant transmission is. He relies on the implication of his strength to control everything he actively can't. So, if something defies him (like when Bra transformed and blocked his attack) he gets PISSED, because he's not in control anymore. His overwhelming power and fighting knowledge did absolutely nothing in preparing him for not only raising a kid, but raising a very DANGEROUS kid who is also meant to be his direct successor.

It's also really important to remember the kind of mindset Vegeta and Goku were when they fused. Vegeta regressed into the darkest part of himself and caused Buu to happen. Even sacrificing his life couldn't fix that. Goku became complacent and relied on his kids to protect themselves. He failed leading them to victory multiple times in the Buu arc. The kids learning fusion just got them absorbed, and him letting his guard down when they unfused inside of Buu caused Gohan to be absorbed right after. Not only were they not strong enough to fight Buu, but they couldn't trust their own judgement anymore.

So you got two saiyans that lost nearly all their self respect and confidence, and the only way they know how to fix it is: 1. Not be themselves and 2. Be stronger. That's where fusion comes in. It's a chance for both Vegeta and Goku to fix their mistakes and be someone else who is smarter (for Goku), more noble (for Vegeta), and STRONG AS FUCK! Vegito is each fusee's ideal self. And if that idea is shaken at all, then what was the point of giving EVERYTHING up to become him? Is he just back to square one? Isn't Vegito supposed to be the guy who's able to handle it? Take care of it? After all

"How did you beat Buu if you and Vegeta didn't fuse IN ORDER TO BECOME ME?" That is one of the first thing Vegito ever even says. It's important because it establishes that Vegito thinks himself as The Solution. His godcomplex was established on his first page, and they come from insecurities from the fusee's as well as the pressure of being this unstoppable hero he sees himself as. That's ALSO why he got so pissed when XXII teleported him out. His power was useless. He had no control. Being Vegito wasn't enough.

And all, ALL of that is reflected in how he treats Bra. He places all of the pressure he feels onto her. But she's a CHILD who hasn't experienced the hardships and understands the extent of her power like he does. She was told from a very young age "you're dangerous, but you need to learn how to use your power to protect everyone. So, become the Arm of God, but also be good or I'm gonna fucking kill you." That shit is SO confusing to Bra. She's gotta be strong and powerful, but everyone tells her to be afraid of it, to always hold back and NOT be herself. Her selfesteem and self confidence is in the shitter, because she's only ever told being herself is dangerous and she needs to be like someone else: like daddy.

They are BOTH fucked up people in a fucked up relationship. But NONE of it is malicious, it's just them not getting the proper guidance in how to handle who they are.
Yikes... dude. This is dragon ball, not some teenage soap opera. And these beings are SAYAJINS... not drama queens in high school. Vegetto's purpose is to keep the universe SAFE. Bra puts that at risk, and he has given her warnings but she has tried his patience and now he deems she is too dangerous to be kept alive because of her history of massive destruction. Therefore he wants her EXECUTED. Simple as that. There's nothing more relevant that meets the eye. If Bra behaved in a way that shows she can keep the universe safe, none of this wuld happen and she would be vegetto's heir.



Dr Raichi was saying: Captain Carbonite was saying: Dr Raichi was saying: Can someone give Ghast an actual personality?
All I've seen him do is give people lectures. What does he like to do in his free time?
What are his hobby's.

Like come on, I get it, he's "the enlightned all knowing Namek" but that gets boring after a while.
Well he is a mixture of every Namekian, Namekians dont exactly have the most exciting personalities as it is, and im sure most qualities cancel each other out.

Nonsense, you are only saying that because many nameks are just background characters who all look alike.
The nameks who were important to the story had very destinct personalities.

Kami, Demon king Piccolo, Nail, Guru, Dende they were all clearly different from each other and none of them were stoic.
The only stoic Namekian we have is Piccolo jr.

Gasts entire personality seems to be giving people speeches like he's budha and have magic powers as the plot wants it.
Give him a distinct personality would you.

That's the problem with original characters. They are supposed to be introduced properly to the audience. But because DBM has so many characters, Salagir can't do this properly without slowing down the story to a crawl.

So he has to do it in specials. We saw some of Ghasts personality in that one special. Where he seemed to have a ruthless side. And a humerous side.
I want more of that. I'm sick of "Let me give you deep mindblowing speeches despite knowing nothing about you" Ghast.

In fact, I want specials about all the interesting universes. And I don't give a shit about the uninteresting ones. (Broly's secund return, anything Bojack related, universe 16)

That's 17 universes to show.

I mean, look at u13. There's a LOT of material right there. I know there was an artist who said he wanted to do them. So Salagirs gotta have some specials of that lying around right?

Honestly I don't care about u9 anymore. Chewys has already established a damn good story about that universe. So why bother.
oh oh oh: Special request time? I have a ton of specials I'm interested in:
Universe 3:
Raichi/Sayain war

Universe 7:
Ghast vs cell and Buu
Fate of Vegeta
Fate of earth

Universe 9:
Battle against sayains, Cooler and babidi.

Universe 11:
Battle on earth against the Z fighters and androids.

Universe 13:
Battle on namek
spin-off Orginal adventure stories with vegeta as emporor

Universe 16:
Hirudagarn

Universe 17:
Cell vs. Bojack
spin-off Orginal adventure stories

Universe 20:
Broly's third coming

Dr Raichi was saying: Can someone give Ghast an actual personality?
All I've seen him do is give people lectures. What does he like to do in his free time?
What are his hobby's.

Like come on, I get it, he's "the enlightned all knowing Namek" but that gets boring after a while.
Well he is a mixture of every Namekian, Namekians dont exactly have the most exciting personalities as it is, and im sure most qualities cancel each other out.

Dr Raichi was saying: Darkstar was saying: I wish tfs TIEN was here to tell pan about dragon balls. And that too multiple sets of them lol


Also who is vegito kidding. Even he himself wasn't able to break free if babidi completely.
He had that maiin stamp till he died. Which means babidi still could enter his mind if he wanted.

While bra completely disintegrated the stamp.

Moreover vegito isn't the one to talk about LITTLE INCREASE IN STRENGTH.
He sold his sould to babidi for that exact reason and now he's bitching to bra about same.
Such a pathetic immoral bastard he is

Vegita ignored Babidi. Bra obeyed Babidi. See the difference?
What does it matter that the mark stayed on Vegeta? He could have killed Babidi and Babidi couldn't do shit about it.

You ignored my 2nd point.
Vegita let himself fall under spell for that same puny increase in strength and then killed thousands of humans at stadium and the city and now he's lecturing bra that why did she let herself fall under spell.
Hell he almost killed his own wife and half of z fighters by that stadium blast


pofehof was saying: Darkstar was saying: I wish tfs TIEN was here to tell pan about dragon balls. And that too multiple sets of them lol


Also who is vegito kidding. Even he himself wasn't able to break free if babidi completely.
He had that maiin stamp till he died. Which means babidi still could enter his mind if he wanted.

While bra completely disintegrated the stamp.

Doesn't matter if Vegeta had the stamp, he wasn't even fully under Babadi's control. He killed the spectators and chose to fight Goku on his own. Getting rid of the mark = breaking free of Babadi's control is a fan theory.

>He sold his soul to babidi for that exact reason and now he's bitching to bra about same.

Vegito is probably the most qualified to talk about this because he knows how dumb it is to do that. Parents don't want their kids to make the same mistakes they did.


Well I ain't against talking and sorting it out. As a matter of fact they should have talked freely years ago.
But beating her as ssj3 full power is madness

I wish tfs TIEN was here to tell pan about dragon balls. And that too multiple sets of them lol


Also who is vegito kidding. Even he himself wasn't able to break free if babidi completely.
He had that maiin stamp till he died. Which means babidi still could enter his mind if he wanted.

While bra completely disintegrated the stamp.

Moreover vegito isn't the one to talk about LITTLE INCREASE IN STRENGTH.
He sold his sould to babidi for that exact reason and now he's bitching to bra about same.
Such a pathetic immoral bastard he is

Dr Raichi was saying: frostyross was saying: DarrielOni was saying: @frostyross

You've said "Vageta" and claimed that everything is Vegetto's fault multiple times now.
Are you a Freaky alt? You even go on similar tangents.

@عمار

Well said, as always.
Seems my prediction earlier in the page was right, too.

KrispenWah was saying: DBZ fans and endless useless powerlevel discussions. Name a more iconic duo.

People who supposedly dislike power levels and thinking any sort of consistency = power levels

typical anti bras
of course it is his fault vegito is half vageta

shes staying in this manga and you guys cant do crap about it

The Vegita in Vegito already sacrificed himself, told Trunks he loved him and was willing to fuse forever with his rival, giving up his own identity, to save his family.

Honestly it makes no sense Vegito has so many issues. He's behaving like android saga Vegita. Instead of Buu saga Vegita.

then why did he go to hell after then

DarrielOni was saying: @frostyross

You've said "Vageta" and claimed that everything is Vegetto's fault multiple times now.
Are you a Freaky alt? You even go on similar tangents.

@عمار

Well said, as always.
Seems my prediction earlier in the page was right, too.

KrispenWah was saying: DBZ fans and endless useless powerlevel discussions. Name a more iconic duo.

People who supposedly dislike power levels and thinking any sort of consistency = power levels

typical anti bras
of course it is his fault vegito is half vageta

shes staying in this manga and you guys cant do crap about it

Dr Raichi was saying: Alright, so Ghast can block transformations.

Which means when he fights Bra he can force her to fight in base.

I don't care how good her techniques are, if Ghast is ssj3 level then Bra is toast.

So, next question, does she know the kaioken? Logicly she shouldn't, she was a ssj at age 6.
If Bra can win in BASE against a ssj3 level oponent, when Cold was stated to be stronger than her, and he was around perfect cell before suicide. Then I call bullshit.

But of course she's going to win somehow. She's going to win the entire tournament, after all.
Can't wait to see how Salagir writes her out of this.

And before people call me a Bra hater, do you serieusly believe she's going to lose to Ghast? Of course not. She'll win and face XXI in the 4th round. And then all hell will break loose.

So how is Bra going to defeat Ghast? Assuming he doesn't hold back and blocks her ssj transformations?

And we aren't going to see U16 Pans reaction to seeing her father cut in half by Bra huh? What's the matter Salagir? Afraid it will make Bra look bad?

Also merry christmas to everyone.
I don't think he really blocked his transformation, plus why would Ghast stop Vegetto if he saw the same thing that Zen Buu showed them and wanted to attack Bra. The only reasonable thing is that Ghast would try to be the rational one, thinking they can fix things with the dragon balls still(or Zen Buu can revive everyone). Plus what's all this about Bra winning anything, she's not even close. Zen Buu or some magic bullshit character is going to win, as we've seen the philosophy of Vegetto about power being the only thing you need is just wrong. Bra and Vegetto don't even use high-end techniques most of the time, at most Ki constructs and only Gotenks uses anything close to magic other than that gel she got on Cell.

Dr Raichi was saying: Mister Doctor was saying: Durra was saying: Mister Doctor was saying: Durra was saying: Mister Doctor was saying: Dr Raichi was saying: Mr Quill was saying: Yeah who didn't see this coming, but the question is how did Gast knock Vegetto out of SS3? It certainly wasn't cause his power was higher, it had've to been some of the Namekian Powers he still was able to hold on to. I mean, right?



Dr Raichi was saying: Alright, so Ghast can block transformations.

Which means when he fights Bra he can force her to fight in base.

I don't care how good her techniques are, if Ghast is ssj3 level then Bra is toast.

So, next question, does she know the kaioken? Logicly she shouldn't, she was a ssj at age 6.
If Bra can win in BASE against a ssj3 level oponent, when Cold was stated to be stronger than her, and he was around perfect cell before suicide. Then I call bullshit.

But of course she's going to win somehow. She's going to win the entire tournament, after all.
Can't wait to see how Salagir writes her out of this.

And before people call me a Bra hater, do you serieusly believe she's going to lose to Ghast? Of course not. She'll win and face XXI in the 4th round. And then all hell will break loose.

So how is Bra going to defeat Ghast? Assuming he doesn't hold back and blocks her ssj transformations?

"against a ssj3 level opponent"

You do realize, SSJ3 is not a specific level, you could have for example Bardock from before he died to Frieza, being able to use ssj3, but he'd be NOWHERE near the strength of Frieza's 100% Power.

SS3 is merely a multiplier

It's not a specific level. Again, Goku SS3 u18, is nowhere near SS3 u16 Vegetto.

You can't say "an ss3 level fighter" that says absolutely nothing.

1 Bardock can't be a ssj3, he's not even strong enough to be a ssj2.
2 Vegito is a fusion, so is Bra,(a natural born one) You are comparing a normal saiyan to a fused one. False equivalency.
3 Yes it is a multiplier, but since your body needs to be strong enough to handle the transformation,"levels" exist. In DBM, except for fusions, a ssj2 is never going to be defeated by a ssj1. The power gap is just too big.
4 Long ago Salagir said his multipliers where x50 x500 x5000.

5 Bra is weaker than Cold, Cold is perfect cell level before suicide, so slightly stronger than fpssj. Bra base=fpssj. Gast traded blows with ssj3 Vegita. So Bra can't do shit to Ghast in base form.

Unless you think Goku from cell games would win against buu saga Goku.



I think you're missing his point. Bardock being able to transform into a SSJ3 wasn't his point(we know he's not capable of that), he was just using Bardock as an EXAMPLE, a word he even used, to show just because you're SSJ3 level doesn't necessarily mean you're stronger than someone at the SSJ2 level. Bra even at SSJ2 could be able to handle a "SSJ3 Level" Gast, because her power is that much greater.
No, you're missing the point. The fandom in general uses "SSJ3 level" to refer to characters around as strong as SSJ3 Goku in the Buu saga, just like they use "SSJ2 level" to refer to characters around as strong as SSJ2 Gohan in the Cell saga. It's a specific label, not a description claiming everyone at a certain SSJ stage is the same strength.

SSJ3 Vegito is not SSJ3 level, and nor would SSJ3 Bardock be. In comparison, Gast IS SSJ3 level since he was fighting roughly on par with SSJ3 Vegeta, who we have no reason to believe is a big outlier because he just recently achieved the form and isn't anything abnormal like a fusion.


I'm not missing anyone's point lol Not sure how you came to that conclusion. It's obvious I dont believe everyone at the SSJ level is the same strength. I was simply stating that just because Bardock can't go SSJ3, it doesn't disprove that guys point, since he was just using Bardock as an example.

Really not sure what you're on about... Also I think you're wrong anyways, because SSJ3 level should mean just that. It doesn't mean you're around "SSJ3 Goku's level". It simply means you are at the SSJ3 level. Makes no sense to say that anyone at SSJ3 level means they're at around SSJ3 Goku's level.
The point you missed is that someone described at being at SSJ3 level IS always far stronger than someone described at SSJ2 level, because that's how the terms are used, so Bra and Bardock don't work as counterexamples. SSJ2 Bra is NOT as SSJ2 level, because she's far stronger than how the term is used, just as a theoretical SSJ3 Bardock would not be at SSJ3 level as used by the general fandom.

That's how the fandom in general uses that term; it doesn't have to make sense to you, because that's just how it is. It's a shorthand for "Buu Saga SSJ3 Goku level", not some description of SSJ3 itself.

The fandom does the same thing with SSJ level, SSJ2 level, SSJG level, SSJB level, etc, where each label represents the approximate power level of the person we first see achieve that form, not a description of that form in general (because the form itself isn't limited to a specific strength). It's used as an easy description so people can just say "Fat Buu is SSJ3 level" instead of "Fat Buu is in roughly the same ballpark of strength as SSJ3 Goku from the Buu saga".


Well I still disagree. But sure, if the fandom has decided "SSJ3 Level" means you're around SSJ3 Goku's level from the Buu saga, then I guess I can't change that.


But from my experience, and as you've said yourself, not everyone is the same strength no matter what SSJ level we're talking about. Anyways, Merry Christmas everyone.

Ah, I think I get what you mean.

You think we say everyone at ssj3 is as strong as each other.ù

What we mean is that there is a "power level tier" or "zone" where people who have reached ssj3 reside powerwise.

The gap between these tiers is very big. But, for example ssj 3 tier goes from ssj3 Vegeta in DBM or Goku at the end of Z, at the low end, all the way to Mystic Gohan at the high end.

Why mystic Gohan at the high end? Because Goku, Vegeta and Gohan aren't sure which of them is the strongest at this point. So a ssj3 can, with enough traiing and time, come close to Gohans power.

But of course, given that ssj3 Goku would have lost to kid buu and Gohan bitchslapped a stronger Buu. That's still a very large gap.

Likewise ssj2 tier. At the low end adult Gohan, who slacked off for 7 years... at the middle teen Gohan, (Vegeta mentioned Gohan had lost a LOT of power in 7 years) znd at the high level Goku and Vegeta at the end of Z. With Goku having just reached ssj3 and Vegeta having caught up due to becoming a majin.

Same with ssj1, there's a huge difference between Frieza saga super saiyan Goku and cell saga super saiyan Goku. But we still say they are both in the ssj1 tier.

So yes, not everyone is as strong, in fact there can be a huge difference in strength. But it's still the same tier. Under normal circumstances, a ssj1 isn't going to defeat someone in a higher tier. Goku can train his ssj all he wants, he's not going to defeat Kid Gohan in ssj1 when kid Gohan is ssj2. Of course, when he transforms to ssj2 himself he'll probably oneshot him at this point. But not at a lower level.

The only people this doesn't aply to, are fusions. Bra's base is around fpssj1, Vegito's base is around mystic Gohan. But they are the exceptions.

Given that Ghast could oneshot a ssj2 cell junior, but struggled with ssj3 Vegeta, we say he's ssj3 tier. He's much weaker that mystic Gohan, and probably Goku and Vegeta too. Since he described Gohans strength as "infinite" but he's still the same tier as them.

Did that clear it up? Or am I misunderstanding our communication problems?

For the most part we seem to be on the same page.

The only problem I see, is that you put Vegito's base at around Mystic Gohan's power level, when in fact Vegito's base should be much greater than Mystic Gohan. Vegito at base power was toying with Buuhan, who is many times more powerful than the Super Buu that Mystic Gohan fought. We know that Buuhan is more powerful than Buutenks, and Buutenks held the advantage against Mystic Gohan. Unless, of course, you can make an argument that Buuhan = Buutenks, but I really can't see that being the case.


Unless you're comparing base Vegito to current Mystic Gohan. In that case you might be right, but IIRC, current Gohan in DBM hasn't trained at all but he never weakened either. So he should still be around the same power as he was in the Buu saga, right? I'll be honest, I do forget things as the story goes on in DBM. lol

Durra was saying: Mister Doctor was saying: Durra was saying: Mister Doctor was saying: Dr Raichi was saying: Mr Quill was saying: Yeah who didn't see this coming, but the question is how did Gast knock Vegetto out of SS3? It certainly wasn't cause his power was higher, it had've to been some of the Namekian Powers he still was able to hold on to. I mean, right?



Dr Raichi was saying: Alright, so Ghast can block transformations.

Which means when he fights Bra he can force her to fight in base.

I don't care how good her techniques are, if Ghast is ssj3 level then Bra is toast.

So, next question, does she know the kaioken? Logicly she shouldn't, she was a ssj at age 6.
If Bra can win in BASE against a ssj3 level oponent, when Cold was stated to be stronger than her, and he was around perfect cell before suicide. Then I call bullshit.

But of course she's going to win somehow. She's going to win the entire tournament, after all.
Can't wait to see how Salagir writes her out of this.

And before people call me a Bra hater, do you serieusly believe she's going to lose to Ghast? Of course not. She'll win and face XXI in the 4th round. And then all hell will break loose.

So how is Bra going to defeat Ghast? Assuming he doesn't hold back and blocks her ssj transformations?

"against a ssj3 level opponent"

You do realize, SSJ3 is not a specific level, you could have for example Bardock from before he died to Frieza, being able to use ssj3, but he'd be NOWHERE near the strength of Frieza's 100% Power.

SS3 is merely a multiplier

It's not a specific level. Again, Goku SS3 u18, is nowhere near SS3 u16 Vegetto.

You can't say "an ss3 level fighter" that says absolutely nothing.

1 Bardock can't be a ssj3, he's not even strong enough to be a ssj2.
2 Vegito is a fusion, so is Bra,(a natural born one) You are comparing a normal saiyan to a fused one. False equivalency.
3 Yes it is a multiplier, but since your body needs to be strong enough to handle the transformation,"levels" exist. In DBM, except for fusions, a ssj2 is never going to be defeated by a ssj1. The power gap is just too big.
4 Long ago Salagir said his multipliers where x50 x500 x5000.

5 Bra is weaker than Cold, Cold is perfect cell level before suicide, so slightly stronger than fpssj. Bra base=fpssj. Gast traded blows with ssj3 Vegita. So Bra can't do shit to Ghast in base form.

Unless you think Goku from cell games would win against buu saga Goku.



I think you're missing his point. Bardock being able to transform into a SSJ3 wasn't his point(we know he's not capable of that), he was just using Bardock as an EXAMPLE, a word he even used, to show just because you're SSJ3 level doesn't necessarily mean you're stronger than someone at the SSJ2 level. Bra even at SSJ2 could be able to handle a "SSJ3 Level" Gast, because her power is that much greater.
No, you're missing the point. The fandom in general uses "SSJ3 level" to refer to characters around as strong as SSJ3 Goku in the Buu saga, just like they use "SSJ2 level" to refer to characters around as strong as SSJ2 Gohan in the Cell saga. It's a specific label, not a description claiming everyone at a certain SSJ stage is the same strength.

SSJ3 Vegito is not SSJ3 level, and nor would SSJ3 Bardock be. In comparison, Gast IS SSJ3 level since he was fighting roughly on par with SSJ3 Vegeta, who we have no reason to believe is a big outlier because he just recently achieved the form and isn't anything abnormal like a fusion.


I'm not missing anyone's point lol Not sure how you came to that conclusion. It's obvious I dont believe everyone at the SSJ level is the same strength. I was simply stating that just because Bardock can't go SSJ3, it doesn't disprove that guys point, since he was just using Bardock as an example.

Really not sure what you're on about... Also I think you're wrong anyways, because SSJ3 level should mean just that. It doesn't mean you're around "SSJ3 Goku's level". It simply means you are at the SSJ3 level. Makes no sense to say that anyone at SSJ3 level means they're at around SSJ3 Goku's level.
The point you missed is that someone described at being at SSJ3 level IS always far stronger than someone described at SSJ2 level, because that's how the terms are used, so Bra and Bardock don't work as counterexamples. SSJ2 Bra is NOT as SSJ2 level, because she's far stronger than how the term is used, just as a theoretical SSJ3 Bardock would not be at SSJ3 level as used by the general fandom.

That's how the fandom in general uses that term; it doesn't have to make sense to you, because that's just how it is. It's a shorthand for "Buu Saga SSJ3 Goku level", not some description of SSJ3 itself.

The fandom does the same thing with SSJ level, SSJ2 level, SSJG level, SSJB level, etc, where each label represents the approximate power level of the person we first see achieve that form, not a description of that form in general (because the form itself isn't limited to a specific strength). It's used as an easy description so people can just say "Fat Buu is SSJ3 level" instead of "Fat Buu is in roughly the same ballpark of strength as SSJ3 Goku from the Buu saga".


Well I still disagree. But sure, if the fandom has decided "SSJ3 Level" means you're around SSJ3 Goku's level from the Buu saga, then I guess I can't change that.


But from my experience, and as you've said yourself, not everyone is the same strength no matter what SSJ level we're talking about. Anyways, Merry Christmas everyone.

Durra was saying: Mister Doctor was saying: Dr Raichi was saying: Mr Quill was saying: Yeah who didn't see this coming, but the question is how did Gast knock Vegetto out of SS3? It certainly wasn't cause his power was higher, it had've to been some of the Namekian Powers he still was able to hold on to. I mean, right?



Dr Raichi was saying: Alright, so Ghast can block transformations.

Which means when he fights Bra he can force her to fight in base.

I don't care how good her techniques are, if Ghast is ssj3 level then Bra is toast.

So, next question, does she know the kaioken? Logicly she shouldn't, she was a ssj at age 6.
If Bra can win in BASE against a ssj3 level oponent, when Cold was stated to be stronger than her, and he was around perfect cell before suicide. Then I call bullshit.

But of course she's going to win somehow. She's going to win the entire tournament, after all.
Can't wait to see how Salagir writes her out of this.

And before people call me a Bra hater, do you serieusly believe she's going to lose to Ghast? Of course not. She'll win and face XXI in the 4th round. And then all hell will break loose.

So how is Bra going to defeat Ghast? Assuming he doesn't hold back and blocks her ssj transformations?

"against a ssj3 level opponent"

You do realize, SSJ3 is not a specific level, you could have for example Bardock from before he died to Frieza, being able to use ssj3, but he'd be NOWHERE near the strength of Frieza's 100% Power.

SS3 is merely a multiplier

It's not a specific level. Again, Goku SS3 u18, is nowhere near SS3 u16 Vegetto.

You can't say "an ss3 level fighter" that says absolutely nothing.

1 Bardock can't be a ssj3, he's not even strong enough to be a ssj2.
2 Vegito is a fusion, so is Bra,(a natural born one) You are comparing a normal saiyan to a fused one. False equivalency.
3 Yes it is a multiplier, but since your body needs to be strong enough to handle the transformation,"levels" exist. In DBM, except for fusions, a ssj2 is never going to be defeated by a ssj1. The power gap is just too big.
4 Long ago Salagir said his multipliers where x50 x500 x5000.

5 Bra is weaker than Cold, Cold is perfect cell level before suicide, so slightly stronger than fpssj. Bra base=fpssj. Gast traded blows with ssj3 Vegita. So Bra can't do shit to Ghast in base form.

Unless you think Goku from cell games would win against buu saga Goku.



I think you're missing his point. Bardock being able to transform into a SSJ3 wasn't his point(we know he's not capable of that), he was just using Bardock as an EXAMPLE, a word he even used, to show just because you're SSJ3 level doesn't necessarily mean you're stronger than someone at the SSJ2 level. Bra even at SSJ2 could be able to handle a "SSJ3 Level" Gast, because her power is that much greater.
No, you're missing the point. The fandom in general uses "SSJ3 level" to refer to characters around as strong as SSJ3 Goku in the Buu saga, just like they use "SSJ2 level" to refer to characters around as strong as SSJ2 Gohan in the Cell saga. It's a specific label, not a description claiming everyone at a certain SSJ stage is the same strength.

SSJ3 Vegito is not SSJ3 level, and nor would SSJ3 Bardock be. In comparison, Gast IS SSJ3 level since he was fighting roughly on par with SSJ3 Vegeta, who we have no reason to believe is a big outlier because he just recently achieved the form and isn't anything abnormal like a fusion.


I'm not missing anyone's point lol Not sure how you came to that conclusion. It's obvious I dont believe everyone at the SSJ level is the same strength. I was simply stating that just because Bardock can't go SSJ3, it doesn't disprove that guys point, since he was just using Bardock as an example.

Really not sure what you're on about... Also I think you're wrong anyways, because SSJ3 level should mean just that. It doesn't mean you're around "SSJ3 Goku's level". It simply means you are at the SSJ3 level. Makes no sense to say that anyone at SSJ3 level means they're at around SSJ3 Goku's level.

Dr Raichi was saying: Mr Quill was saying: Yeah who didn't see this coming, but the question is how did Gast knock Vegetto out of SS3? It certainly wasn't cause his power was higher, it had've to been some of the Namekian Powers he still was able to hold on to. I mean, right?



Dr Raichi was saying: Alright, so Ghast can block transformations.

Which means when he fights Bra he can force her to fight in base.

I don't care how good her techniques are, if Ghast is ssj3 level then Bra is toast.

So, next question, does she know the kaioken? Logicly she shouldn't, she was a ssj at age 6.
If Bra can win in BASE against a ssj3 level oponent, when Cold was stated to be stronger than her, and he was around perfect cell before suicide. Then I call bullshit.

But of course she's going to win somehow. She's going to win the entire tournament, after all.
Can't wait to see how Salagir writes her out of this.

And before people call me a Bra hater, do you serieusly believe she's going to lose to Ghast? Of course not. She'll win and face XXI in the 4th round. And then all hell will break loose.

So how is Bra going to defeat Ghast? Assuming he doesn't hold back and blocks her ssj transformations?

"against a ssj3 level opponent"

You do realize, SSJ3 is not a specific level, you could have for example Bardock from before he died to Frieza, being able to use ssj3, but he'd be NOWHERE near the strength of Frieza's 100% Power.

SS3 is merely a multiplier

It's not a specific level. Again, Goku SS3 u18, is nowhere near SS3 u16 Vegetto.

You can't say "an ss3 level fighter" that says absolutely nothing.

1 Bardock can't be a ssj3, he's not even strong enough to be a ssj2.
2 Vegito is a fusion, so is Bra,(a natural born one) You are comparing a normal saiyan to a fused one. False equivalency.
3 Yes it is a multiplier, but since your body needs to be strong enough to handle the transformation,"levels" exist. In DBM, except for fusions, a ssj2 is never going to be defeated by a ssj1. The power gap is just too big.
4 Long ago Salagir said his multipliers where x50 x500 x5000.

5 Bra is weaker than Cold, Cold is perfect cell level before suicide, so slightly stronger than fpssj. Bra base=fpssj. Gast traded blows with ssj3 Vegita. So Bra can't do shit to Ghast in base form.

Unless you think Goku from cell games would win against buu saga Goku.



I think you're missing his point. Bardock being able to transform into a SSJ3 wasn't his point(we know he's not capable of that), he was just using Bardock as an EXAMPLE, a word he even used, to show just because you're SSJ3 level doesn't necessarily mean you're stronger than someone at SSJ2. Bra even at SSJ2 could be able to handle a "SSJ3 Level" Gast, because her power is that much greater.

A120 was saying: Mr Quill was saying: Yeah who didn't see this coming, but the question is how did Gast knock Vegetto out of SS3? It certainly wasn't cause his power was higher, it had've to been some of the Namekian Powers he still was able to hold on to. I mean, right?



Dr Raichi was saying: Alright, so Ghast can block transformations.

Which means when he fights Bra he can force her to fight in base.

I don't care how good her techniques are, if Ghast is ssj3 level then Bra is toast.

So, next question, does she know the kaioken? Logicly she shouldn't, she was a ssj at age 6.
If Bra can win in BASE against a ssj3 level oponent, when Cold was stated to be stronger than her, and he was around perfect cell before suicide. Then I call bullshit.

But of course she's going to win somehow. She's going to win the entire tournament, after all.
Can't wait to see how Salagir writes her out of this.

And before people call me a Bra hater, do you serieusly believe she's going to lose to Ghast? Of course not. She'll win and face XXI in the 4th round. And then all hell will break loose.

So how is Bra going to defeat Ghast? Assuming he doesn't hold back and blocks her ssj transformations?

"against a ssj3 level opponent"

You do realize, SSJ3 is not a specific level, you could have for example Bardock from before he died to Frieza, being able to use ssj3, but he'd be NOWHERE near the strength of Frieza's 100% Power.

SS3 is merely a multiplier

It's not a specific level. Again, Goku SS3 u18, is nowhere near SS3 u16 Vegetto.

You can't say "an ss3 level fighter" that says absolutely nothing.

That may be true, but here in DBM SSJ forms really do fall in to 'tier-based catergories'. Salagir explained that under normal cirumstances a base character would never be able to defeat someone who is in a super form or threshold higher than them without the need of transforming. That may not be clear but say Post End of Z u18 Goku which is the current Goku here would still not be able to defeat 100% Frieza from Namek Saga in his base alone. There are exceptions to that most notably Vegito and by extension Bra.

So by that logic Ghast's actual 'Tier' may be irrelevant due to his magical hax he just used.

Well the tier based thing is fine buuuut

Post Z Goku not being able to defeat Frieza in his 100%

Feh, My Speculation would say he'd be almost equal to 100% Frieza in base form

Damn, I guess depending on the specifics of this ability that means Ghast > all of the saiyians. I doubt even Vegetto could bridge the power difference between his base and Ghast with kaioken, so what chance does the rest have.

Yeah who didn't see this coming, but the question is how did Gast knock Vegetto out of SS3? It certainly wasn't cause his power was higher, it had've to been some of the Namekian Powers he still was able to hold on to. I mean, right?



Dr Raichi was saying: Alright, so Ghast can block transformations.

Which means when he fights Bra he can force her to fight in base.

I don't care how good her techniques are, if Ghast is ssj3 level then Bra is toast.

So, next question, does she know the kaioken? Logicly she shouldn't, she was a ssj at age 6.
If Bra can win in BASE against a ssj3 level oponent, when Cold was stated to be stronger than her, and he was around perfect cell before suicide. Then I call bullshit.

But of course she's going to win somehow. She's going to win the entire tournament, after all.
Can't wait to see how Salagir writes her out of this.

And before people call me a Bra hater, do you serieusly believe she's going to lose to Ghast? Of course not. She'll win and face XXI in the 4th round. And then all hell will break loose.

So how is Bra going to defeat Ghast? Assuming he doesn't hold back and blocks her ssj transformations?

"against a ssj3 level opponent"

You do realize, SSJ3 is not a specific level, you could have for example Bardock from before he died to Frieza, being able to use ssj3, but he'd be NOWHERE near the strength of Frieza's 100% Power.

SS3 is merely a multiplier

It's not a specific level. Again, Goku SS3 u18, is nowhere near SS3 u16 Vegetto.

You can't say "an ss3 level fighter" that says absolutely nothing.

You guys are saying its gast, its XXI, its buu.

Its santa. Tomorrow is a mini comic its christmas.

Santa gives vegetto a toy and bra gets a lump of coal I bet, or something like that.

Dr Raichi was saying: Darkstar was saying: Dr Raichi was saying: Darkstar was saying: Ok just to give my 2 cents over sensu topic.
Bra is not full saiyan she's half saiyan so should be compared more to Gohan.

Now that that's clear.
Gohan used sensu to heal during saiyan saga. Against Nappa and vegita.
Gohan. Used dendes healing against freeza

Gohan again used dende against super buu.

Now to Goku.
Goku used healing against android 19.
Vegita used sensu against android 20.

Goku used healing by dragon during kid buu spirit bomb.

Now if super considered- Goku and vegita both used sensu against zamasu just before forming Vegito.

Goku himself wanted to take sensu to TOP. TO HEAL HIMSELF MIDFIGHT!!!
Goku used freeza to give him part of his own strength after jiren fight. And people still say Owww Goku never uses sensu MIDFIGHT. BULLSHIT

First of, Salagir treats Bra like a full bloodes saiyan. According to him she's "200% saiyan because her fathers a fusion and she's a natural born fusion" which results in her issues. Because she can't handle that well. So comparing her to Gohan is useless.

We see this clearly with u18 Bra. She's like Gohan. U16 Bra isn't.

Secondly no, super doesn't count. TOP makes no goddamn sense, Goku is repeatedly out of energy in those 45 minutes yet somehow magicly regains his full strength and surpasses Jiren. You'd think he'd conserve his strength to fight Jiren, but no, he instead wastes it fighting Kefla which nearly kills him. It makes no sense that he's still able to fight Jiren afterwards, repeatedly, he should be exhausted.

Vegeta did not use a senzu against android 20. He defeated android 19, fair and square. Then played mind games with Gero/android 20 because he realized he was tired. Gero fell for it. And fled.

Only then did Vegeta ask for a senzu bean.

We can argue semantics and say "he still asked for a senzu bean" and I'd counter he asked for one in between fights. He didn't take one mid fight with android 19 or 20, he didn't ask for one when his arm was broken by 18 either.

Again Goku was having a heart attack. That's not "normal". Ignoring the heart attack would have killed him, whether he continued the fight or not.

I'll give you the asked for healing by dragon against Buu. That is, indeed, the single instance they in fact "cheated".
By all rights, Buu won that fight. He pushed back the spirit bomb with his own strength.
Goku realized it too, which is why he wanted Buu to reincarnate so he could fight and defeat him for real.

In fact, I'll give you an example of cheating. Piccolo vs Gero/android 20. Piccolo asked for a senzu bean before fighting Gero, technicly their fight had already started. Gero nearly sucked Piccolo dry. And Gero was winning. But Piccolo isn't a saiyan.

Man.. if I didn't know u better I would call you a hypocrite.
At one point you are against salagir always saying he's writing wrong and his justification on bra's defence are bullshit.
Now you are saying you agree with his statement of bra being 200% saiyan. Like wtf man! XD
It's like you nitpicking whatever fits your outlook.

2nd bro super is also written by Same person toriyama who wrote DBZ so why a bias against it.

Ok since you don't want supers arguement. Then let me present you with few more arguements which would be cannon to DBM since you stated salagirs point.

In DBZ broly movie part 1- when broly had beaten pulp out of Goku.. picollo came in spaceship and gave each of z fighter a sensu.even Goku and he didn't hesitate even 1 bit before taking it.
Then in cooler revenge he was shot dead by cooler on 1st encounter and would have died and should have died had it not been for Gohan to go get sensu to heal him.and thus he again cheated. He was in same condition like bra was against cold that's half dead. Yet he chose to cheat and eat sensu to heal.

And I would still consider bra has half human she does have half DNA of bulma so why not? By every logic she should be treated same even though her father is fusion. Denying this is like twisting facts to suit own arguement.

And that reminds me of 1 more instance. Trunks future one during cell saga asked himself TO CHEAT AND GIVE GOhan a sensu mid fight.
Even if you wanna take salagir 200%.. even then you will have to accept what's cannon to DBM about cooler and broly


Now if you say broly and cooler are non canon.. I would say dude it's dBm you are reading.. and everything is canon in this version

Yes, he did. Conveniently there weren't any when he asked that. Wanna know why? Because Gohan losing use of his arm then immediately eating a senzu bean would be pointless naratively. Might as well skip him losing his arm then. (kuch Bra when Cell blew her arm of and she grew it back before her old one even hit the ground, utterly pointless) Also it would ruin the entire climax of the story for Gohan to take a senzu bean mid kamehameha.

But i'm talkin narrative, let's talk in universe.

Trunks was also the one who proposed giving Goku a senzu bean against Cell. Which got ignored by everyone EVERYONE and Vegeta gave him shit about even suggesting it. Not so weird for Trunks to repeat that request again when the chips are down.

Trunks has always been a pragmatic fighter. He finished off Frieza and Cooler without even giving them time to power up. If you take DBM as canon, this actually saved everyone's ass. As full power king cold would have destroyed everybody. But even then, Trunks didn't walk around with senzu beans in his pockets all the time.

I'm not excusing Salagirs writing. Were I to have my way, Bra would have lost to Cold. And died a painfull, slow death. Cold would then have gone on to fight Ghast. And Bra would have to deal with her massive fuckup because ego and stupidity. Consequences. The start of a character arc for her to better herself, much like Vegeta did.

Neither am I taking the "Bra isn't responsible for her actions when she "loses control" argument serieusly. In my eyes she's responsible for everything she does when she "loses control" If a man beats his wife in a fit of rage, he goes to jail. So too should Bra.

Also where I given my way this whole "Bra subplot" would be exactly that "a subplot" not the focus for the last 2 years. To the detriment of more interesting characters.

But it's a fact that u16 Bra and u18 Bra do not behave the same. I can accept that Bra has "the saiyan urge to train and impulses" because her father was a fusion. I can accept that gives her issues. I cannot accept that she's not responsible for what she does because of those issues.


As for why the bias against super? Well...

To start off, super is clearly marketed toward children, DBZ was marketed toward teens who were kids when Dragonball happened. Secondly Toriyama clearly doesn't care anymore. He did care in the Frieza and Cell saga, he started to care less in the Buu saga, but he still cared. But now...

I'll admit, it was a genius idea to bring Freeza back, and I loved the Broly movie. But everything else is a waste of time. Remember how the Goku Black arc ended? Trunks suddenly got spirit bomb sword out of nowhere and cut a fused Zamasu in half. The same Zamasu who went toe to toe with Vegito. How does that even make sense.

And you'd be wrong. Toriyama doesn't write super himself, he gives an outline. I think it would be a lot better if he handled it himself. Like with Broly. But again, he doesn't care anymore. He's old, he wants his retirment money.

Well you got me there. I did not consider the movies. I can't explain that. But I can still argue Salagir rewrote Cooler without senzu bean :D s in it.
I can't even say Toriyama didn't write the movies, because he did write Broly (yes I consider the movies worth something, it's the series I detest) And in Broly, Goku and Vegeta take a time out to eat a senzu bean and fuse into Gogeta. So you got me there.

That still bothers me far less than Bra using them every time she takes a hit though. Goku and Vegeta also clearly admitted they couldn't beat Broly, hell even Gogeta nearly couldn't without going Blue, Broly was overpowering HIM.

So Goku and Vegeta fusing: accepting Broly is superior, Goku even admits it at the end of the movie, that Broly is in every way stronger than him.

Bra on the other hand, eats a senzu bean when she's clearly losing, then acts like she won anyway. And she brags about it. She brags about losing and acts like it's something to be proud of.


And what you say is true, logicly Bra of u16 should be the same as her u18 counterpart. She's still 50%human.

But you can see for yourself that the only thing u16Bra and u18 Bra are similar in is appearance. u18 Bra likes to go on dates. wear expensive clothes, and gossip away. u16 Bra basicly has no life outside of training and she's not bothered in the slightest by it. Salagir blames it on her Vegito genes. She has the same potential as Vegito, hence she's stronger than our heroes in ssj2.

Also apparently your post got deleted.

>Trunks was also the one who proposed giving Goku a senzu bean against Cell. Which got ignored by everyone EVERYONE and Vegeta gave him shit about even suggesting it. Not so weird for Trunks to repeat that request again when the chips are down.

But didn't goku ask for a bean later on to fight cell to save gohan? he was probably going to dog pile on cell like what trunks suggested. Then there was the time he ate a senzu vs 19 mid battle.

This is smart, even if it didn't work because the bean can't out do a virus. are we using movies? they ate beans mid fight vs brolly.

3 examples and 2 of them are canon. Sure the context is different, but goku was going to go all out vs 19 and if the tide had turned because of the senzu that was gokus decision.

Dbs also had them use senzus vs black or at least try to use them to gain an advantage. this doesn't contradict their fighting style from dbz.

Vegeta, mid fight had dende heal him mid fight for the sole purpose of a zenkai.

Again, this is a good idea, and in the buu saga dende healed gohan while fighting buutenks.

So I get the context being different. Bra used beans in a tournament, while those were life and death situations. So, while its dishonorable and cheap, its legal.

Its basically like bringing a gun to a fist fight, except the fight here between kold and bra is 100% legal.well, ok not really, but If kold had any healing items he could bring with him, it also would be legal.

Besides, between her hax moves and such, she didn't need any senzus vs kold in the official match. She had those ki clones, the sword, and probably all of goteks moves. And if all else failed, she could just dump him into space and warp outta there, and win by count out. The beans and kolds play taps were more akin to filler, and all we really got from that was some insight into her fighting style which was fighting dirty.

She likes to win no matter what, even if it means beign a cheap fighter.

Dr Raichi was saying:
Look, Goku threw a senzu bean at CELL to make it "Fair".
He played rock paper scizors with Vegeta to fight Buu.
He held back against Buu to "give Vegeta a turn"
He refused to refuse into Vegito because "Buu wasn't a fusion anymore so it wouldn't be fair.
He stayed on Namek with Frieza, letting him powerup to 100% just to fight him at his best.
He admitted to Piccolo he basicly fought Cell first, not because Gohan needed to see how he fought, but because he wanted to fight Cell himself first.

This guy is not going to take a senzu bean in a one on one fight.

The one example you gave was unique: he was having a heart attack. Pretty sure anyone would grab a magical healing bean if their heart stopped working.

Hell during his fight with Cell, Cell literally gave him the oportunity to take a senzu bean, he declined.


Well you said he would never take one, but he wasn't very reluctant to take it there, was he? And it wasn't unique only in the way of him having a heart attack, but also because it was the only time he could take advantage of a senzu mid battle. In every other scenario where he could've needed one after getting badly beaten up, he was simply out of them. Cell doesn't count, because Goku didn't want to keep fighting until the end in the first place, since his plan was gohan. And he gave cell the senzu because he was confident Gohan would beat him anyway, full health or not. He later regretted his decision. Same for the senzu bean he refused to take at first just to ask for it later. The other points just confirm his love for fighting his opponents at their best and have nothing to do with him taking senzus or not. Its like you only look at things to fit you point of view. Goku literally teamed up against stronger opponents and asked for energy to defeat them. Not very fair, is it? What makes you think he wouldn't take a senzu if it meant he could beat them? Goku never showed dissaproval of using senzus or getting healed if it meant to win. He just always wants to fight his opponents at their best and offers them a fair experience if possible, thats it. You wanna tell me goku wouldn't have taken a senzu against Vegeta if he could, after having his bones crushed by him? I am 100% sure he would. Everytime he could've needed a senzu against a strong enemy, he simply was out of them. And Goku isn't the most honorable fighter anyway. He blinds his opponents, cheapshots them, has his friends stall them while he prepares his next move or collects energy to defeat them. And in the old db tournaments even embarassed them on purpose like how he did with tien when he took his belt. I mean sure, he is a good guy, always keeps his word and if he fights within rules, he never breaks them. But Bra didn't break any rules either when she took that senzu, did she? Her behaviour wasn't any more 'unfair' than what Cold pulled off to have a easy win and surely not more unfair than all the shit Goku pulls off in his battles to defeat the villains either. You guys are just overly sensitive whenever Bra does something for whatever reason.

Dr Raichi was saying: Darkstar was saying: Ok just to give my 2 cents over sensu topic.
Bra is not full saiyan she's half saiyan so should be compared more to Gohan.

Now that that's clear.
Gohan used sensu to heal during saiyan saga. Against Nappa and vegita.
Gohan. Used dendes healing against freeza

Gohan again used dende against super buu.

Now to Goku.
Goku used healing against android 19.
Vegita used sensu against android 20.

Goku used healing by dragon during kid buu spirit bomb.

Now if super considered- Goku and vegita both used sensu against zamasu just before forming Vegito.

Goku himself wanted to take sensu to TOP. TO HEAL HIMSELF MIDFIGHT!!!
Goku used freeza to give him part of his own strength after jiren fight. And people still say Owww Goku never uses sensu MIDFIGHT. BULLSHIT

First of, Salagir treats Bra like a full bloodes saiyan. According to him she's "200% saiyan because her fathers a fusion and she's a natural born fusion" which results in her issues. Because she can't handle that well. So comparing her to Gohan is useless.

We see this clearly with u18 Bra. She's like Gohan. U16 Bra isn't.

Secondly no, super doesn't count. TOP makes no goddamn sense, Goku is repeatedly out of energy in those 45 minutes yet somehow magicly regains his full strength and surpasses Jiren. You'd think he'd conserve his strength to fight Jiren, but no, he instead wastes it fighting Kefla which nearly kills him. It makes no sense that he's still able to fight Jiren afterwards, repeatedly, he should be exhausted.

Vegeta did not use a senzu against android 20. He defeated android 19, fair and square. Then played mind games with Gero/android 20 because he realized he was tired. Gero fell for it. And fled.

Only then did Vegeta ask for a senzu bean.

We can argue semantics and say "he still asked for a senzu bean" and I'd counter he asked for one in between fights. He didn't take one mid fight with android 19 or 20, he didn't ask for one when his arm was broken by 18 either.

Again Goku was having a heart attack. That's not "normal". Ignoring the heart attack would have killed him, whether he continued the fight or not.

I'll give you the asked for healing by dragon against Buu. That is, indeed, the single instance they in fact "cheated".
By all rights, Buu won that fight. He pushed back the spirit bomb with his own strength.
Goku realized it too, which is why he wanted Buu to reincarnate so he could fight and defeat him for real.

In fact, I'll give you an example of cheating. Piccolo vs Gero/android 20. Piccolo asked for a senzu bean before fighting Gero, technicly their fight had already started. Gero nearly sucked Piccolo dry. And Gero was winning. But Piccolo isn't a saiyan.

Man.. if I didn't know u better I would call you a hypocrite.
At one point you are against salagir always saying he's writing wrong and his justification on bra's defence are bullshit.
Now you are saying you agree with his statement of bra being 200% saiyan. Like wtf man! XD
It's like you nitpicking whatever fits your outlook.

2nd bro super is also written by Same person toriyama who wrote DBZ so why a bias against it.

Ok since you don't want supers arguement. Then let me present you with few more arguements which would be cannon to DBM since you stated salagirs point.

In DBZ broly movie part 1- when broly had beaten pulp out of Goku.. picollo came in spaceship and gave each of z fighter a sensu.even Goku and he didn't hesitate even 1 bit before taking it.
Then in cooler revenge he was shot dead by cooler on 1st encounter and would have died and should have died had it not been for Gohan to go get sensu to heal him.and thus he again cheated. He was in same condition like bra was against cold that's half dead. Yet he chose to cheat and eat sensu to heal.

And I would still consider bra has half human she does have half DNA of bulma so why not? By every logic she should be treated same even though her father is fusion. Denying this is like twisting facts to suit own arguement.

And that reminds me of 1 more instance. Trunks future one during cell saga asked himself TO CHEAT AND GIVE GOhan a sensu mid fight.
Even if you wanna take salagir 200%.. even then you will have to accept what's cannon to DBM about cooler and broly


Now if you say broly and cooler are non canon.. I would say dude it's dBm you are reading.. and everything is canon in this version

Ok just to give my 2 cents over sensu topic.
Bra is not full saiyan she's half saiyan so should be compared more to Gohan.

Now that that's clear.
Gohan used sensu to heal during saiyan saga. Against Nappa and vegita.
Gohan. Used dendes healing against freeza

Gohan again used dende against super buu.

Now to Goku.
Goku used healing against android 19.
Vegita used sensu against android 20.

Goku used healing by dragon during kid buu spirit bomb.

Now if super considered- Goku and vegita both used sensu against zamasu just before forming Vegito.

Goku himself wanted to take sensu to TOP. TO HEAL HIMSELF MIDFIGHT!!!
Goku used freeza to give him part of his own strength after jiren fight. And people still say Owww Goku never uses sensu MIDFIGHT. BULLSHIT

Vegetto was saying:
If i were you i wouldnt account that as a Fair need of a senzu Bean. Goku was desperate in that fight, he didnt knew what was happening. Imagine you being an atlet doing your excercises and suddenly your body feels weak and tires, you probably would want your regular energy back.
I already said that he only needed it because of his heart disease, so you don't really need to explain the circumstances of that fight to me... And I don't blame him for doing it either. Goku used outside support to win important fights more than once but I sure won't blame him for it with everything that was on the line each time. It was just me responding to "Goku and Vegeta would both never resort to senzu beans to win a fight after it already started." because thats what he did. I don't remember goku ever showing himself unwilling to take senzus if it meant he could continue a lost fight, especially with how much he loves fighting. He just didn't had any spare senzus left most of the times he got beat up. That aside, I wouldn't say it was a "fair need of a senzu bean" in Bra's case either. Cold isnt a enemy bra would ever need a Senzu for, if it were a regular fight. The fact she had Senzus as precaution, which didn't break a single rule in that fight, only made her seem less stupid for agreeing to his ridicilous terms. Their fight wasn't meant to be "honorable" the very moment she was challenged to fight in her base by a opponent who was hiding multiple transformations himself.

@Argelios

Excellent point. Respectful and thoughtful.

I'm going to try to beat certain users to the point here: this is going to be lumped into the "you only want to see Bra get "punished" because you don't like her/cause she's a girl" category by people.


People forget this is a story. There's not some morbid desire to see a fictional character who's "hated" bite it.

Consequences build character. Bra is seemingly in a redemption arc. Bra is missing at least two important ingredients in my opinion. 1.) A well established core issue. I'll explain what I mean in a bit.

2.) As you said, lack of consequences. Those make the transition/progress believable.

Let's take everyone's favorite comparison Vegeta. Simply put: The impetus for Vegeta's change was Goku. His core issue was arrogance/selfishness, self-preservation, and believing those qualities made him strong. Goku showed him he was wrong when he turned SSJ by being pure and Vegeta did not. Despite being proven wrong, Vegeta did not learn his lesson yet. That's Why in the Android saga even after he became SSJ he got wrecked again (consequences). It wasn't until he fought and sacrificed himself for others was he redeemed. (And him going to hell has little to do with it as some people say, hell was a consequence yes, but more to emphasize to fans it was a truly selfless)

Piccolo core issue was he believed revenge was his only purpose and the only way of life. He was proven wrong in one conversation with Gohan, he became a teacher ans father figure, (also Goku who showed him mercy years earlier) and when he sacrificed himself, that was the moment he proved to the audience he realized he could have greater purpose in life.

Bras impetus seems to be U18 Bra's reprimand and she broke the seal herself. That's the moment she realized she did something wrong. Okay. But it's not believable she learned what is actually right.

Bras core issue of her powers being flawed is well established. But it's constantly glazed over by the actions of other characters. (I.e. Vegito beating her up now despite saying she was mind controlled.) Also, Bra up until now, imo, hasn't really done anything worth "redeeming". She's been good imo. The story keeps emphasizing if she has flaws or does something wrong, it's not her fault somehow. ("I was traumatized!", "I can't control my powers!", "I was under Babidi's control!")

That'd be fine, if Bra herself wasn't constantly simultaneously undoing the justifications the story is trying to establish. (*Kills Brother "who cares I won!", "you're passive!", "But my father scares me!", "It's my fault!", Father beats her up anyway and probably will get stomped for it himself") She herself doesn't face consequences and glazes over the lessons.


She already broke the seal of her own volition. If she had at least needed help, it's not (only) because people wanted to see her lose, you could at least make the claim she was victim herself, and she has a geninue need for redemption. But because she broke the seal on her own for immoral reasons, she either looks like a terrible person or (to those who give her a pass for everything) a person who never truly needed to be redeemed in the first place. (Remember she was mind controlled. (And what's the point of all this then?)

If U18 Bra really was the impetus for Bra and she is now changed or is changing... She's done so without having learned all the other lessons from before, there's no indication she truly understands why "But I'm stronger than Gohan now!" Was an appropriate response after killing her brother. Or why she fell under Badidi's influence in the first place. She learned that she's weak willed, but never why is she weak willed... Or show the audience she learned how not to be. (If breaking the seal is that moment, it was glazed over by the fact killing her brother wasn't enough to teach her the same lesson as being scolded for being "weak" was)

And if Vegito beats her up now, the narrative isnt "Bra is receiving consequences for her actions" it's "Vegito is unreasonable, he's punishing her for something that wasn't her fault or teaching her a lesson she already learned. He failed her as a parent." That's also fine, but it still doesn't address the lesson Bra needs to learn for herself to truly change.


Even worse if she can control her SSJ 2 form which I'm not saying she can forsure, her core issue is solved her arc is over and she never really changed or grew.

I don't know what everyone is arguing about. It's obviously I'K'L.



ZenBuu was saying: Its really unbelievable, how far some people go while commenting and how hard they try everything, even to the point where they totally lose all their objectivity, just to make Son Bra or even Salagir (as a writer) look bad.

First, people say she needs commeuppance and should be punished for what she did, and when she finally gets punished, they actually use her eyes as Salagir's excuse, that he only wants to protect his "waifu" at any cost, so lets give her wet, puppy eyes, where everyone instantly feels bad for her and thus making Vegito to the big bad guy who is obviously abusive and totally out of character...totally suprising, right? Yeah, not really.

We already knew for several years from Bardock's vision, that Vegito has some screws loose and eventually will totally lose it and freak out. He wanted to crush Gohan's skull because he was right and the "allmighty god" Vegito not. Who needs to go SSJ3 to hurt his SSJ2 daughter btw, although nobody can even reach 10% of his power...his words, not mine.
Also we never saw Vegito outside of his fight against Buu, so we just saw his childish and cocky behaviour in a fight, never how he would act in a normal day situation. Salagir did a perfect interpretation of his character, at least in my eyes. The biggest issue within him is the Vegeta, who never acknowledged Goku as the #1 in the Kid Buu fight. That makes Vegito so unstable. He's a ticking time bomb, just waiting to explode. And he's also a huge hypocrite, for being angry that his daughter got controlled by a tiny magician, although he is not better. He let himself being controlled on purpose! Just for the selfish reason to fight against Goku, he killed the audience at the tournament (and almost Bulma and the others too), while sadistically smiling.

Sure Vegeta payed for his sins, but why shouldn't be the same allowed for Bra? In comparision, Vegeta was a really bad guy, who killed like millions of people and probably even enjoyed it (don't tell me he was forced by Frieza, most Saiyans were evil bastards, end of story), while Bra never hurt or killed anyone on purpose, while she was concious and in control of herself. She may have an unlikeable character/attitude, but I'm sure she will change now, to be a better, more likable person. At least thats the impression I get.

Bra defending herself is just natural reflex and her survival instincts kicking in. After all she is still a young girl and totally in shock right now. She finally shows emotions and regret for her actions, what everyone wanted her to do for so long, but thats obviously still not enough. No matter where Salagir moves with Bra/U16, its wrong. If it really bothers you so much, you can always stop reading, nobody forces you to read and/or comment here. And no, I'm not saying that you can't comment something constructive here!

But the extreme hate and the overall toxic attitude here is honestly sooo ridiculous. Just my 2 cents.




I'd like to make note that you're right in the sense that she never really consciously hurt people. I would also like to point out that on page 1795 she doesn't seem to be too upset about destroying an entire planet either.

I'm not anti Bra or pro Bra. Her life circumstance is a bit different than Vegetas though. He was raised in an environment of conquer or be conquered. Killing for gain was praised. His entire race and planet was destroyed while he was a child. He was practically raised to be tyrannical. Bras childhood might seem better but it could be equally as disturbing. I mean she has a maddening amount of power at such a young age. Her father doesn't even know his own purpose. He's neither Vegeta or Goku but instead he's an entirely new being. A being born into this world with inherently conflicting thoughts. Imagine being created to kill something, you then kill it, and now what? "I guess I'll just keep existing... to fight maybe?"

Bra may have (on paper) had a better childhood than Vegeta but at least he had structure. There was a purpose for him. He grew into his power. Bra on the other hand was handed the keys to a Bugatti Chiron when she was 5 and then expected to learn how to use it maturely. The only real Structure she may have had was Gohan. Even then, Gohan probably lived in fear of this new stranger Vegetto, who was neither his dad or Vegeta.

That being said if someone had been strong enough to outright kill Vegeta when he killed the audience then maybe someone would/should have.

It's not going to matter anyway because I'K'L is about to yoke Vegetto up and show him who's boss.

@Dr Raichi

>Bra pulling one out of her glove, inches from death, in a tournament match, when there was no indication she had any on her, is, however, a deus ex >machina.
>It's a literal example.

It isn't. A sudden or unexpected turn of events is not in itself a deus ex machina. I blame cinemasins for the overuse of that term.

>I get people have different opinions, but at least look up the term before commenting so you understand it.
>A Deus ex Machina (pron: diːəs ɛks mækɪnə for Britons, deɪuːs ɛks mɑːkɪnə for Americans; deus eks maːkʰinaː in the orginal Latin) is when some new event, >character, ability, or object solves a seemingly unsolvable problem in a sudden, unexpected way.

It doesn't even fit the definition you posted as that would require a NEW object. A sudden, unexpected way is not in itself or the term would lose any meaning as everything that's not predictable could be counted as such.

>Would anyone in Dragonball Z have ever done that? No. Goku even gave a fucking senzu bean to Cell so "it would be a fair fight"
And all besides Vegeta thought he was nuts for doing it. Besides, Bra wasn't in DBZ.

>It is therefore unreasonable to assume a character would suddenly start using them as "backup" in a fucking tournament match.
Just because Goku or Vegeta wouldn't, does not mean other characters, especially those that are introduced in DBM wouldn't. Bra would. She did. There is no point in drawing parallels to what other characters would have done when we actually see her acting differently.

>Not to mention it defeats the entire purpose of DBM. Seeing characters we always wanted to fight, fight. And who would win.
>A character eating a senzu bean because she's about to lose invalidates this completely. She didn't win because she's stronger. She won because she had a >fucking senzu bean.

As Salagir wrote her using the bean, it seems that is not the purpose of his story. But you saw who was stronger anyway.She is much stronger if she goes all out and comparable to Cold in her base form. What more do you need?

>Because no one cares that her whole presence destroys the potential this comic has.
That's just like your opinion, man.

>I want to see Vegeta fight Cell.
Me too. And in time, we will.

>Look mister "I studied greek literature"
I highly doubt that, if you use the term wrong.

>You want me to keep it simple. Alright. Click on the link, read it. End of discussion.
I don't believe somebody who studied greek literature would post TVtropes as a source. Besides, the definition does not fit here anyway.

Dr Raichi was saying: fda92 was saying: >How many deus Machinas saves is Bra going to get? from the sensu beans against Cold, to ghast coming out of nowhere to save her from the wrath of a ssj3 vegetto.

Grabbing an already existing item with reasonable speed, or being saved by a powerful ally who had ample build-up as such are not "deus ex machinas" by any stretch of the imagination.

You lack imagination.

True, grabbing a senzu bean in itself isn't a deus ex machina.

Bra pulling one out of her glove, inches from death, in a tournament match, when there was no indication she had any on her, is, however, a deus ex machina.

It's a literal example.

I get people have different opinions, but at least look up the term before commenting so you understand it.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeusExMachina

A Deus ex Machina (pron: diːəs ɛks mækɪnə for Britons, deɪuːs ɛks mɑːkɪnə for Americans; deus eks maːkʰinaː in the orginal Latin) is when some new event, character, ability, or object solves a seemingly unsolvable problem in a sudden, unexpected way.

Did senzu beans exist? Yes. Did we know they were allowed? Yes. Would anyone in Dragonball Z have ever done that? No. Goku even gave a fucking senzu bean to Cell so "it would be a fair fight"

It is therefore unreasonable to assume a character would suddenly start using them as "backup" in a fucking tournament match.
Not to mention it defeats the entire purpose of DBM. Seeing characters we always wanted to fight, fight. And who would win.

A character eating a senzu bean because she's about to lose invalidates this completely. She didn't win because she's stronger. She won because she had a fucking senzu bean.

If, for example, Bardock had seen in a vision that senzu beans exist. Had grown them, had taken them with him to the tournament. Had shown everyone he had them. So we the readers knew Bardock had senzu beans. And he then loses against Cold. Takes a senzu, and defeats an exhausted Cold. No one would be happy. We want to see who would win in a fight, Bardock or Cold. Not see Bardock lose, only to win anyway because senzu bean.

But of course Bra gets a pass. Because no one cares that her whole presence destroys the potential this comic has. I want to see Vegeta fight Cell. And we are still on this Bra nonsense.

No. You and other folk lack awareness, if anything, and this long-winded post doesn't exactly help your argument either.

Using something well-established in the story is not a deus ex machina. "Getting out of a tight situation" is not a deus ex machina. Unless you believe any time the tables get turned be a deus ex machinas (Dragon Ball has many; the Dragon Balls being one; something like the appearance of Rou Kaioshin also very much, almost literally, qualifies as such), you are also blatantly applying some absurd double standards.

I could go as far as saying that I am probably more accustomed to the term since I studied ancient Greek literature, among other things, but I'll try to keep it simple. The origin of the "deus ex machina" plot device comes from a god appearing out of nowhere to solve an otherwise unsolvable situation. Do you think this is equivalent in any shape of form to Bra, someone with super speed, snatching the Senzu beans from a character?

It isn't. Period.

>How many deus Machinas saves is Bra going to get? from the sensu beans against Cold, to ghast coming out of nowhere to save her from the wrath of a ssj3 vegetto.

Grabbing an already existing item with reasonable speed, or being saved by a powerful ally who had ample build-up as such are not "deus ex machinas" by any stretch of the imagination.

Fun fact: on page 1796, Salagir described Vegito as "a perfect master of his body and emotions".

Fun fact: on page 1796, Salagir described Vegito as "a perfect master of his body and emotions".

Jotaro Kujo was saying: Jade was saying: If Vegetto really gets stopped from straight-up killing Bra, this'll be confirmation that Salagir really is trying to protect Bra from punishment. She kills all of those people, including her own half-brother, with no remorse and the most she gets is a swift kick to the stomach? C'mon now. She needs to be held accountable for her crap! If Salagir isn't going to show that what Bra did isn't excusable and there is no justification for it, they may as well just remove Bra from the comic altogether. Vegeta, when he originally became a Majin, didn't make excuses for himself and didn't allow anyone else to make excuses for him. He knew what he did and he completely accepted his fate, but not only that, he screwed Babidi in the process too without shifting all the blame over to the wizard.

You have to give Bra the same treatment, since doing otherwise only shows viewers that it's okay to do bad things if you just look innocent enough. Bra needs to face the consequences of her actions, and that won't just be getting alienated by her family, but also likely resulting in her life being taken by her father who warned her once that if she lost control again he would absolutely take care of her. Vegetto knew that he and Bra were both unstable in certain ways and Vegetto tried to help her, but was ultimately unsuccessful because of his nature. As a result, he now has to kill his only surviving child after everything that happened because she let herself be controlled by Babidi.

P.S.: Both U16 & 18 Pans should've been the first ones to lash out at Bra, even if she's about a few degrees stronger than them both. I'd have totally bought it if U16 snaps, goes SSJ2, then flies at Bra with the full expectation of killing her. Of course, Goku would try to step in, only to have one of the other people who lost someone basically just knock him aside. It'd only add to the chaos and show how Bra's actions haven't just hurt her, but a lot of people who have no reason to help her, much less make an effort to keep her alive.
question tho, who do you think didn't help her get through these in her younger years, vegito.
who abandoned her on a piece of floating rock during a supernova, that sure she caused, but unintentionally because she just unlocked a new form she couldn't control, vegito
who was the one who treated her like a threat to everyone, making her fear her own power, allowing more vulnerabilities for babidi to slip in, vegito
who treated her like sub-human garbage and worsened her self-confidence, allowing babidi to take control even further, vegito
if vegito actually acted like a good father and helped to teach and train bra, she wouldn't have done all that, vegito is the one at fault here

also, vegito didn't help bra at all, as we saw a long few chapters back, he left GOHAN to do it, and even then because of how busy he was he couldn't do it. vegito is not only an irresponsible father, but a terrible mentor and trainer
you can't blame bra for not being taught how to control herself, do you expect every single fighter with unimaginable power to suddenly have a grasp on every inch of power they possess? hell no, even then after bra broke free from babidi, she can now control her power, and you wanna know the first thing she does? she blocks a punch, nothing else, doesn't try to fight back, doesn't show any malice, she's just trying to protect herself from her own, insane father trying to murder her for actions she felt immensely guilty for, and your saying that BRA is the one at god-damn fault here?!


Ok. Vegetto is a terrible person. Neat. Doesn't change anything about how terrible Bra is. Is Vegetto at fault with what happened? Certainly and he needs his comeuppance as well.
That doesn't mean ignore the psychopath elephant in the room that gleefully killed all her friends and family and only stopped when she was called 'weak'.

If there was any sort of hesitation or if she actually wasn't in control at all, then there wouldn't be as much of an issue.

Instead, she went Majin Vegeta x 10 and was far more sadistic/worse than anything him and everything he did. THAT would still be fine if she gets her own comeuppance like Vegeta did (sacrificing his life for others to kill the villain, knowing at the time he would die, go to hell, and never be revived again. Even if he didn't stay dead, it was an act that helped in redeeming him as a character.)

However, it doesn't even look like she'll be facing anything near what you'd expect at minimum and that she's even going to be defended for doing all of this. Unless they're a villian that you're suppose to love to hate, how can you really even like her at this point?

I mean if worse comes to worst im sure the kais would be down to give our goku and vegeta potara earrings. They're both stronger base than u16 goku and vegeta and theyd fuse after vegeta has his little speech in the kid buu saga so u18 Vegetto would be a little less psycho.

Bra certainly needs to own up to what she’s done, just like her counterpart told her. Vegito though here needs to own up that this is just as much his fault for not raising her like a father and just as a fighter. Vegeta did better as a parent with Trunks than his fusion has done with Bra

Dr Raichi was saying: Turbocharger was saying: Dr Raichi was saying: UMW was saying: @Freak17

>"you fail to understand how things work with babadis magic"

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with what you said except this. We DO know how Babidi's mind control works (save for Salagir putting his own spin on things) Regardless, the story went out of its way to show Bra was capable of breaking free of whatever degree of control he had on her with the right motivation. Said motivation not being love for her family, but fear of being weak.

@Dr. Raichi

>"she suddenly makes a 180 and admits it's all her fault."

All great points. This, too, felt very odd to me. This adds to what I'm saying about writing conventions but I wanted to keep it simple and easy to read for the benefit of certain users ...

@XisBack

Most definitely. I think we're going to see more and more people do distance themselves as time passes. So those "wait and see" people may not understand now, but I'm willing to bet they will later. I myself never understood the flack for Bra, until whenever the Majinization thing first happened. What's sad is I was hyped for it going into it. It ended up being the jump the shark moment for me. And I've soured on the comic ever sense.

Tombo was saying:
Asking for an example of Vegito abusing bra 3-4 months ago doesn't say much considering that was only a couple of mainline chapters ago.



I was being facetious..that's the point.

The point you raised about the comic's publishing being dragged out has also been noted and tested. Let's forget about the years... How many chapters into DBM are we now? How far are we in the tournament itself? Then talk to me about pacing.

Re-read what I said about the revelation of abusive Vegito. That has nothing to do with the pacing of the story and everything to do with a major plot development coming out of seemingly no where.

Btw wanting a story that makes sense and is well paced is expecting too much?


EDIT: this is where your argument fails for me: we've see Vegito have a temper and it's been hinted that he has a dark side, but we've also seen NUMEROUS interactions, all mostly positive, between him and Bra up until that one point. If anything, we've seen Vegito be not strict or tough enough on his daughter.

If the comic hinted at aggression AT BRA, for example, maybe Bra was speaking brashly about something or towards someone and Vegito randomly passed a threatening glare and Bra giving slight pause... That would've suggested maybe there was something there. We haven't seen so much as Vegito get forceful with Bra, to my memory. But if so, nothing that stood out and certainly nothing that foreshadowed abuse.


EDIT 2: Say of U16 Gohan were alive and would switch places with Bra here. This story all of a sudden makes sense. Why? Because Gohan is a sympathetic character, he killed his half sister, who was majinized, for the greater good. Vegito already has shown aggression/resentment towards Gohan in the past, Bra is his daughter, his heir, and it's a little kept secret Vegito wants to fight Gohan even if he didn't hate him. Plus the flashback shows Vegito choking Gohan and Bra saying he is impossible to beat, it didn't come off as if Bra was the target of his aggression. Ever.


That would have been foreshadowing. All the seeds planted in the story before paid off. What we actually got was a subversion and a poor one.

Alternatively again, let's say Bra didn't start off God Tier who couldn't control her powers. Let's say instead, during the tournament, Bra discovered new powers she couldn't control... And this intrigued Vegito. Salagir wrote a story showing Vegito slowing shifting his interest and aggression towards Gohan onto Bra. Now DESPITE of Bardocks vision of Vegito choking Gohan to death, we see here, Vegito choking Bra to death, because somehow Bra, being the mary sue demi Goddess she is, was so powerful she actually changed the course of the future. And effectively plants seeds for Vegito's heel turn. Idk if the audience would find that interesting or not but regardless that might have been a subversion actually founded in some logic. That's what foreshadowing is.

For me it was the body change with Bra. You could skip right over it and nothing would change. When I saw that Salagir could trow away a year long arc "who is ginyu" for extra "Bra and Vegito time", that moment I soured. Hard.


UMW was saying: Dr Raichi was saying:
For me it was the body change with Bra. You could skip right over it and nothing would change. When I saw that Salagir could trow away a year long arc "who is ginyu" for extra "Bra and Vegito time", that moment I soured. Hard.


Oh, yeah, that too. Definitely wasn't the best, but I gave it a pass anyway. No good reason for me to have done that, I just didn't let it piss me off so much.

The reason why it didn't piss me off is because I assumed it wasn't meant to resolve the Ginyu plot, just reveal who Ginyu was. We still got Ginyu being a genuine threat during the Majin arc, even killing most of the Supreme Kais, so I'm hoping he continues to play a role.

Another reason why it didn't bother me too much is because it came in between Bra VS Ginyu and Gast VS Raichi. I was disappointed somewhat by Bra vs Ginyu, not because of the Senzu Beans or Bra's techniques, but I just wasn't into the fight itself. I was even more disappointed by Fast VS Raichi, so having the Vegito VS Ginyu fight sandwiches in between them softened the blow for me, since I enjoyed that right a lot more.

Now that I think about it, Frieza and Cooler still haven't confronted Ginyu about their father yet, which is hopefully a sign that there is more too come.

What's there to confront him about?

Ginyu isn't only in a vastly superior body, but even if they beat him, he can just body change with them.
They had their chance to kill him when Babidi took over. If only Frieza had succeeded in resisting...

But back to the Vegito-Ginyu thing.

Actions are supposed to have a point in the story.

We already knew Vegito was massively stronger than Bra, so what was the point? Ginyu showed he could control Bra's body better than Bra herself. But that's meaningless, because she didn't learn anything from this and now can control that form too because plot.

Again, you can literally SKIP the whole thing and nothing of value would be lost.

Wouldn't it have made much more impact, had we not known Ginyu is Cold, and the reveal came when he swichted with the kais and murder/suicided them?
Whether or not Frieza notices... I don't know which is more interesting.

I'd like to imagine Frieza resisting Babidi, finding out Ginyu is in his fathers body. And from the rage activate his fifth form. Then have them face off.

Now that you mention it, it would have been pretty sick if Ginyu revealed himself while fighting the Kais. I actually wish that's how it went now. XD

Dr Raichi was saying: UMW was saying: @Freak17

>"you fail to understand how things work with babadis magic"

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with what you said except this. We DO know how Babidi's mind control works (save for Salagir putting his own spin on things) Regardless, the story went out of its way to show Bra was capable of breaking free of whatever degree of control he had on her with the right motivation. Said motivation not being love for her family, but fear of being weak.

@Dr. Raichi

>"she suddenly makes a 180 and admits it's all her fault."

All great points. This, too, felt very odd to me. This adds to what I'm saying about writing conventions but I wanted to keep it simple and easy to read for the benefit of certain users ...

@XisBack

Most definitely. I think we're going to see more and more people do distance themselves as time passes. So those "wait and see" people may not understand now, but I'm willing to bet they will later. I myself never understood the flack for Bra, until whenever the Majinization thing first happened. What's sad is I was hyped for it going into it. It ended up being the jump the shark moment for me. And I've soured on the comic ever sense.

Tombo was saying:
Asking for an example of Vegito abusing bra 3-4 months ago doesn't say much considering that was only a couple of mainline chapters ago.



I was being facetious..that's the point.

The point you raised about the comic's publishing being dragged out has also been noted and tested. Let's forget about the years... How many chapters into DBM are we now? How far are we in the tournament itself? Then talk to me about pacing.

Re-read what I said about the revelation of abusive Vegito. That has nothing to do with the pacing of the story and everything to do with a major plot development coming out of seemingly no where.

Btw wanting a story that makes sense and is well paced is expecting too much?


EDIT: this is where your argument fails for me: we've see Vegito have a temper and it's been hinted that he has a dark side, but we've also seen NUMEROUS interactions, all mostly positive, between him and Bra up until that one point. If anything, we've seen Vegito be not strict or tough enough on his daughter.

If the comic hinted at aggression AT BRA, for example, maybe Bra was speaking brashly about something or towards someone and Vegito randomly passed a threatening glare and Bra giving slight pause... That would've suggested maybe there was something there. We haven't seen so much as Vegito get forceful with Bra, to my memory. But if so, nothing that stood out and certainly nothing that foreshadowed abuse.


EDIT 2: Say of U16 Gohan were alive and would switch places with Bra here. This story all of a sudden makes sense. Why? Because Gohan is a sympathetic character, he killed his half sister, who was majinized, for the greater good. Vegito already has shown aggression/resentment towards Gohan in the past, Bra is his daughter, his heir, and it's a little kept secret Vegito wants to fight Gohan even if he didn't hate him. Plus the flashback shows Vegito choking Gohan and Bra saying he is impossible to beat, it didn't come off as if Bra was the target of his aggression. Ever.


That would have been foreshadowing. All the seeds planted in the story before paid off. What we actually got was a subversion and a poor one.

Alternatively again, let's say Bra didn't start off God Tier who couldn't control her powers. Let's say instead, during the tournament, Bra discovered new powers she couldn't control... And this intrigued Vegito. Salagir wrote a story showing Vegito slowing shifting his interest and aggression towards Gohan onto Bra. Now DESPITE of Bardocks vision of Vegito choking Gohan to death, we see here, Vegito choking Bra to death, because somehow Bra, being the mary sue demi Goddess she is, was so powerful she actually changed the course of the future. And effectively plants seeds for Vegito's heel turn. Idk if the audience would find that interesting or not but regardless that might have been a subversion actually founded in some logic. That's what foreshadowing is.

For me it was the body change with Bra. You could skip right over it and nothing would change. When I saw that Salagir could trow away a year long arc "who is ginyu" for extra "Bra and Vegito time", that moment I soured. Hard.


UMW was saying: Dr Raichi was saying:
For me it was the body change with Bra. You could skip right over it and nothing would change. When I saw that Salagir could trow away a year long arc "who is ginyu" for extra "Bra and Vegito time", that moment I soured. Hard.


Oh, yeah, that too. Definitely wasn't the best, but I gave it a pass anyway. No good reason for me to have done that, I just didn't let it piss me off so much.

The reason why it didn't piss me off is because I assumed it wasn't meant to resolve the Ginyu plot, just reveal who Ginyu was. We still got Ginyu being a genuine threat during the Majin arc, even killing most of the Supreme Kais, so I'm hoping he continues to play a role.

Another reason why it didn't bother me too much is because it came in between Bra VS Ginyu and Gast VS Raichi. I was disappointed somewhat by Bra vs Ginyu, not because of the Senzu Beans or Bra's techniques, but I just wasn't into the fight itself. I was even more disappointed by Fast VS Raichi, so having the Vegito VS Ginyu fight sandwiches in between them softened the blow for me, since I enjoyed that right a lot more.

Now that I think about it, Frieza and Cooler still haven't confronted Ginyu about their father yet, which is hopefully a sign that there is more too come.

People are quick to crucify Bra but they tend to forget how Vegetto also has a bad temper and easily loses his mind.
Page 729, totally losing control, beating random people up just to demand attention ("People should listen when I speak!")
Page 733 and page 742, he knows he is like that and prefers to be alone to calm down. He is pretty fine later on page 792.

I guess what is happening now is the biggest disappointment of his life, specially for having been on that side once as Vegeta.
Not that that justifies the physical abuse, just bringing another point to discussion.

I said in the last page that Bra was scared of Vegetto, she turns into SSJ2 out of fear here. For Vegetto, that insubordination only makes him angrier.

I wonder what the other characters are thinking.

@Freak17

>"you fail to understand how things work with babadis magic"

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with what you said except this. We DO know how Babidi's mind control works (save for Salagir putting his own spin on things) Regardless, the story went out of its way to show Bra was capable of breaking free of whatever degree of control he had on her with the right motivation. Said motivation not being love for her family, but fear of being weak.

@Dr. Raichi

>"she suddenly makes a 180 and admits it's all her fault."

All great points. This, too, felt very odd to me. This adds to what I'm saying about writing conventions but I wanted to keep it simple and easy to read for the benefit of certain users ...

@XisBack

Most definitely. I think we're going to see more and more people do distance themselves as time passes. So those "wait and see" people may not understand now, but I'm willing to bet they will later. I myself never understood the flack for Bra, until whenever the Majinization thing first happened. What's sad is I was hyped for it going into it. It ended up being the jump the shark moment for me. And I've soured on the comic ever sense.

Tombo was saying:
Asking for an example of Vegito abusing bra 3-4 months ago doesn't say much considering that was only a couple of mainline chapters ago.



I was being facetious..that's the point.

The point you raised about the comic's publishing being dragged out has also been noted and tested. Let's forget about the years... How many chapters into DBM are we now? How far are we in the tournament itself? Then talk to me about pacing.

Re-read what I said about the revelation of abusive Vegito. That has nothing to do with the pacing of the story and everything to do with a major plot development coming out of seemingly no where.

Btw wanting a story that makes sense and is well paced is expecting too much?


EDIT: this is where your argument fails for me: we've see Vegito have a temper and it's been hinted that he has a dark side, but we've also seen NUMEROUS interactions, all mostly positive, between him and Bra up until that one point. If anything, we've seen Vegito be not strict or tough enough on his daughter.

If the comic hinted at aggression AT BRA, for example, maybe Bra was speaking brashly about something or towards someone and Vegito randomly passed a threatening glare and Bra giving slight pause... That would've suggested maybe there was something there. We haven't seen so much as Vegito get forceful with Bra, to my memory. But if so, nothing that stood out and certainly nothing that foreshadowed abuse.


EDIT 2: Say of U16 Gohan were alive and would switch places with Bra here. This story all of a sudden makes sense. Why? Because Gohan is a sympathetic character, he killed his half sister, who was majinized, for the greater good. Vegito already has shown aggression/resentment towards Gohan in the past, Bra is his daughter, his heir, and it's a little kept secret Vegito wants to fight Gohan even if he didn't hate him. Plus the flashback shows Vegito choking Gohan and Bra saying he is impossible to beat, it didn't come off as if Bra was the target of his aggression. Ever.


That would have been foreshadowing. All the seeds planted in the story before paid off. What we actually got was a subversion and a poor one.

Alternatively again, let's say Bra didn't start off God Tier who couldn't control her powers. Let's say instead, during the tournament, Bra discovered new powers she couldn't control... And this intrigued Vegito. Salagir wrote a story showing Vegito slowing shifting his interest and aggression towards Gohan onto Bra. Now DESPITE of Bardocks vision of Vegito choking Gohan to death, we see here, Vegito choking Bra to death, because somehow Bra, being the mary sue demi Goddess she is, was so powerful she actually changed the course of the future. And effectively plants seeds for Vegito's heel turn. Idk if the audience would find that interesting or not but regardless that might have been a subversion actually founded in some logic. That's what foreshadowing is.

seanpiece was saying:
I think part of the disconnect between the two camps is that there's a difference between a retcon and a revelation.

Fair.

seanpiece was saying:
We are seeing Vegetto in a crisis right now, and he's reacting poorly. None of that is a retcon. It's not being "conveniently introduced" - the groundwork has been laid, as many have pointed out.

That's not what I (or others, I believe) are calling convenient. The timing of this "revelation" is convenient. In the middle of Bra's crisis, right before breaking the majin seal, as she's trying to justify her actions we see this flashback of how Vegito "traumatized" Bra. Vegito has long been shown to have a latent dark side, yes. Vegito traumatizing his daughter has not. I challenge anyone to show me examples from the comic of Vegito threatening or traumatizing his daughter before 3-4 months ago.




seanpiece was saying:
As for how people feel about Bra, there's a difference between sympathy, empathy, and pity. A lot of people are mad that Salagir is "trying to make them feel bad" for Bra. Feel however you feel!


For some, sure.

But largely, I think this is a projection/defensive tactic on the part of people who are enjoying the comic and perhaps even Bra herself, and won't tolerate critique out of some weird sense of devotion.

Anyway, this is the heart of the issue and what is being confused by many: The issue is that while Salagir wants the audience to feel bad for Bra, he has deliberately wrote a story that has done everything to make it impossible for that to happen.

It's not an argument over fanboyism like many want it to be, it's an argument over writing conventions. And no one wants to have that conversation, because if they did, they'd have to admit the criticism is fair.

For everyone who doesn't struggle to understand the importance of context:

It doesn't matter whether Bra or Vegito or both Bra AND Vegito is meant to be in the right or the wrong here. It ONLY matters when the story is clearly trying to TELL you one thing (Bra is meant to be sympathized here) while SHOWING you another (highlighting all her flaws and failing to give her next to no redeeming qualities up to this point).

Bra COULD'VE shown REMORSE for her not being able to control her powers and she would've been sympathetic now. Her last flashback proves she did not.

Bra COULD'VE shown to BE UNWARE during her outbursts but the dialogue proves otherwise.

She COULD'VE been shown to be POWERLESS to Babidi's influence, she broke it on her own volition.

Any chance the audience COULD HAVE had to give Bra the beenfit of the doubt was DELIBERATELY nixed. NOW the story is telling us the character it has SO MANY TIMES told us HAS NO REDEEMING qualities, is on the path to redemption and expects a something other than a mixed and confused reaction. And make no mistake, clearly the audience is polarized by this character for this reason.

It's fair if someone doesn't hold this opinion that this is acceptable, but for users like Vagabond to demonize whoever sees this and calls it out for what is generally considered to be bad writing, is, put nicely, disingenuinous.


@Vagabond

>"It's not inconsistent when she is not sympathic at one point of the story and after the story unfolds she gets to be shown as sympathic at a later point of the story. You sure how stories work?"

Again, lol wut? The story HASN'T progressed. The last main chapter showed Bra slaughter virtually everyone. The cover of this chapter, which happens IMMEDIATELY AFTER, and every page since, has shown her CRYING.

The previous page I refered to, everyone was in agreement that just because she cries doesn't mean she is to be sympathized with. But now that Vegito is "punishing her" for the VERY THING she did YOU YOURSELF say she wasn't intended to be sympathized with for, she is NOW a sympathetic character for? Lmao

Now you want to stop? Yeah, you do that.


>"That's just you claiming it's bad without backing anything up. That suppossed to be impressive? Glad I didn't waste time searching that."

Idk who you think you're fooling. Pro tip: Just b/c you pretend to be bad at reading doesn't mean other users are.

>"You sure are full of yourself for what you deliver."

Hmm. Well considering you've been aggressively denouncing "bra haters" for the past two pages. I'd say "that's pretty rich coming from you".


>"You sure you get how fictional characters work? they don't "deserve" to be sympathetic. they are writen that way or they aren't."

So now you've graduated to semantics. Great...

Please explain how the story has effectively written Bra to be sympathetic.

Was it when she broke free of Badidi's influence after being called "passive"... Or when she cried about it "not being fair" when Vegito verbally scolded her after killing her brother and destroying a solar system?

Is she sympathetic now? Because she admitted what she did was wrong and Vegito kicked her in the stomach anyway? Is the fact that Vegito admits she was "under mind control" consistent with any of the other plot points the story introduced?

Help me understand please.

>"Several month ago she wasn't portrait as such. now she is. She was not portrait as a sympatic character AT THAT POINT(and she wasn't). Is that seriously your gotcha? That he said at that time she wasn't supposed to be symphatic in the comments and now she is month later in the story?"


Lol wut? Are you admitting the story is inconsistent? Bra wasn't sympathetic a chapter ago, now the next she is? Is that what constitutes good story telling now days?

Do you hear yourself?

>"A character can be flawed AND sympathetic. they are not mutual exclusive. Your entire argument seems to build on that assumption.
Good grief..."

No, this is a misunderstanding on your part...


>"Never claimed she isn't shown in a sympathic light. Just don't see it as a problem. A lot do. A lot don't. sorry it doesn't work for you."

Good this is progress. Now that we have established agreement that Bra IS being painted sympathetically, now explain to me why she deserves it.


Me hours ago:

UMW was saying:
Vegito's "heel turn" (or true colors) has been long foreshadowed, true. But his temper being the catalyst or an excuse for Bra's character/arc is new. That's the problem.

The notion that Vegito being a bad father is the cause for Bra being so flawed, is garbage. The comic did a poor job of showing this until now. As if it were unplanned.

And that's only the most recent time of several on this page and the last I've addressed this.

You actually haven't said anything new other users haven't said before. You rehash the same tired arguments despite new evidence being introduced with each coming page.

It's hilarious how desperate you are to a) deflect and/or b) completely ignore any argument you aren't ready to react to.


EDIT:
Vagabond was saying:




UMW was saying:
You care to explain how he didn't write himself into a hole? Humor me.

No response? Cool.

You do like to pick and choose your battles...



Vagabond was saying:
Because it fits your narrative? Telling. I guess I will not bother searching up those comments of yours


Deflect no jitsu, not very effective.


Vagabond was saying:
And you and your buddy xisback would make a really bad ones because you guys are way too transparent.

Lol, so because we happen to agree, means I'm coming to the defense of my "friend". (I don't think I've ever held a conversation with XisBack either seems like a good guy though)

Are you not proving my point, tho? Lol you didn't actually refute anything I said about the comic. But you're going to frame this as two users ganging up on you?

Still waiting for you to explain how the comic either a) isn't showing Bra in a sympathetic light or b) how it isn't a problem that it is even though the fans don't see it that way...

>"BTW your pseudo meta plot analysis about visual and narrative clues would be way more convincing if you wouldn't give your buddy a pass for ignoring an important page because it fits the narrative you want to spin."

Still waiting...

And Idc if XisBack didn't address it. I did. Go back and read the comments. I'll wait.

Edit:

Vagabond was saying:

Maybe your just not as clever as think you are?Maybe stop conveniently ignoring part of the story.


*You're. ;)


Vagabond was saying:
It kinda isn't.
That supposed to be an argument?


That is the entire argument. But of course you wouldn't know that, because you've been in a blind defensive fit for two pages now.


Vagabond was saying:
You claiming he did, does not make it so.


Several months ago, Salagir went out of his way to tell us Bra is not meant to be a sympathetic character. (Correction: he said he intended to make them both flawed, but clearly went out his way to address the argument about her "redemption" arc nonetheless) Months later many users, some like myself who complained about it back then, and many others more who said it wasn't so then, are still debating, and agreeing that she is in fact, being portaryed as a sympathetic character now.

You care to explain how he didn't write himself into a hole? Humor me.

UMW was saying:

@Vagabond
>"It isn't. You guys just seem overly mad at everything that portraits Bra positively and Vegetto negatively. Seems to be mostly because of "undeserved power" or bratty attitude. At least that comes up every page. Both is fine with all other characters tho."

Like this. This is a terrible misrepresentation of anything anyone has said. Least of all, XisBack. Refer to my comments in the last page. Accurate or not (and it is accurate.) You're going create new ways to reject, dismiss, invalidate thoughtful posts that use evidence from the pages and at least are genuine attempts to analyze the work itself, in favor of your own self held sentiments and preconceived notions i.e. you guys just hate Bra! "Whats the alternative? A boring story?" (The story is largely boring as is since its poorly written.)

In this entire conversation you more so derailed the point rather than made any.

It comes up all the time. Of course people have a problem with those things.

XisBack listed tons of stuff he admitted doesn't nearly compare to what Bra did here to construct some inconsistency in Vegetto's character while ignoring the biggest foreshadow of his reaction again and again. It is not accurate and I refuse to take that seriously. That you call that thoughtful is rather telling. And that a main character has a lot of screen time and the story resolve around her is an observation and not an argument. Don't like it? I suggest you search for a story with a main character you like instead of complaining that a main character gets treated as such.

The rest is projection on your part.



SupaHera was saying: Man, the desperate attempts to paint Bra as an innocent angel and everything that happened was all the fault of that evil Vegito. I actually kind of find it funny.

If that is what you see happening here, I suggest you rather read some very simple stuff where all the characters are either mustache twirling villians or noble and bright paragons. God forbid characters are not just strictly black and white.

Dr Raichi was saying: freaky was saying: oh oh i think i know whos going to intervene

u16 pan

you might be thinking im crazy considering that bra killed her father

but let me explain

like bra pan has been exposed to the dragonballs just as much and she knows the dragonballs can fix everything

think about it we havent seen her reaction to what bra has done but what if pan knows that bra cant control her self which she does

think about it for a moment

in z when goku was training gohan goku saw the potential in gohan and he knew that gohan was right person to kill cell

pan has been training in the time chamber with bra and gohan and pan has seen what bra in capable of she understands her weaknesses she knows that she cant control her self

pan from u16 will come to bra rescue

pan and bra are close and she knows bra more then vegito

thats my prediction


Why

Do

you

always

type

like

that

xD

im a little dyslexic this is the only way i can write

oh oh i think i know whos going to intervene

u16 pan

you might be thinking im crazy considering that bra killed her father

but let me explain

like bra pan has been exposed to the dragonballs just as much and she knows the dragonballs can fix everything

think about it we havent seen her reaction to what bra has done but what if pan knows that bra cant control her self which she does

think about it for a moment

in z when goku was training gohan goku saw the potential in gohan and he knew that gohan was right person to kill cell

pan has been training in the time chamber with bra and gohan and pan has seen what bra in capable of she understands her weaknesses she knows that she cant control her self

pan from u16 will come to bra rescue

pan and bra are close and she knows bra more then vegito

thats my prediction

@J.I.L
Alas, even if the efforts are moot, if baloney happens, it should be pointed out.

@Duzzpartner
>Yeah, let's just casually forget that Vegito specifically had to remove himself from the situation because he wanted to murder his own son for telling him he lost. Let's forget about the written narrative account of Vegito consistently almost losing it and actively considering hurting Gohan's loved ones to bring out more of Gohan's power.
Key words: "wanted", "almost".
Vegito didn't murder Gohan, and he didn't kidnap Pan. If we can excuse Bra for killing billions as a child and many more as an adult because "it wasn't her", surely we can forgive Vegito for not actually going through with things he thought about?

>You just hate Bra
In all seriousness, I do think she's taking up an awful lot of screentime she doesn't deserve and hasn't used that well.

>hating a girl who did not ask for her power
Well that doesn't really hold up. Vegito didn't ask for his power, either: it was Goku and Vegeta's decision to create him, not his. Cell and Buu didn't ask for their power, too. By that logic we can't fault any of them for any of the things they did. Does anyone ask to be born? Does that excuse work in court? I dunno.

>nor did she ask for a father who emotionally abuses her for her entire life.
We have two recorded instances of Vegito making Bra distressed: one, when he stormed out of the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. Note: he is physically damaged, while Bra doesn't have a scratch on her, so I'm inclined to think that whatever happened Vegito didn't dish out anywhere near as bad as he got. Two was when Bra had just killed billions, showed no remorse for it, and Vegito told her he would have to kill her for the safety of the universe. Bra talks casually around Vegito during the tournament so if she was emotionally abused, it has not been portrayed in the slightest.

>I don't see you hating on the other players in the cast in the same way even though their actions are worse.
None of those "other players" have anywhere near Bra's screentime, though, which helps fan opinion of them.
More importantly, unlike Bra, guys like Cell, Buu, Frieza, Ginyu, and others haven't been portrayed as victims, nor has the story made excuses for their behavior.
More more importantly, they were initially presented as villains. Bra was presented as a heroic character, or at least on the heroes' side. We expect bad guys to be bad; I'm not sure we expect good guys to have killed billions of people and not cared about it.

Squirz was saying:




"Rage powerups where always temporary"

SSJ 2 wasn't and the regular ones still were an "undeserved" way out of a situation he could not handle.

"Genetic make up?"

His half human\saiyan blood gave him a superior latent potential and quicker progression than everybody else.

"He actually had to train and learn how to use his powers"

So did Bra. So did everybody in DBZ.

"However, Gohan had to experience battle."

So did Bra and everybody else.


"Stated in original tier list provided by Salagir if not mistaken years ago."

Her form is stronger because she is. Not because it is special when she does it.

"however her SSJ2 transformation seems to be more powerful than regular one."

I don't think so. Related, Vegeta stated that Ghost Broly's regular ssj form is just that. And he is also kind of an abnormality.

"If we would would go by official provided multipliers..."

I think better not open that can of worms. Are they canon to DBM anyway?

"Cell got his ass handled cause of his arogance.
Androids too.
Vegeta got his ass beaten multiple times.
Bra not even once"

She got used by Babidi to kill her loved ones with her bare hands.Forever changing the way they look at her, leaving her broken and defeated. Thats way worse then a beatdown.

"What pisses me off and most of us is that she is always put as the victim in the story."

She is in this case tho. Where else is she put as the victim?

"Vegeta was kinda put as a victim once when he was killed by Freeza. Yet after that all his mistakes where not written off or made look like he is the victim in the situation."

He cried and begged Goku while having a drawn out death and a sob story. Sure he was.

"Yet Bra, oh she is just a child."

She is. One that is afraid her own father will kill her.

"By the way she regained control not because she killed Gohan but cause she was called passive by her look alike."

I doin't get what you are trying to say here.

Dr Raichi was saying: I once met this guy who casually told me he murdered his girlfriend. On her birthday. When she turned 16.
The guy went to an institution for a few years but was eventually released.

When asked why, he said I was angry, I didn't mean to do it.
Stayed the hell away from him for the rest of the year.

He said it so casually too, like, I didn't even know him for more than 10 minutes.

And in case you want to know how: he strangled her, on her bed, in her room. Until she stopped breathing.

That guy saying "I lost control" is bullshit, just like "Bra losing control" is. If that guy had Dragon Balls it wouldn't change the fact that he's a murderer. And no one's going to say, His dad never taught him to control his violent impulses so it's not his fault. He's still a murderer.
Dr Raichi was saying: The point being, saying "Dragon Balls can fix it" in that scenario wouldn't make the guy any less of a murderer.
Same with Bra. But you people excuse it every chance you get. Salagirs argument was literally "Bra fixed her mess with Dragon Balls". I'm demonstrating it doesn't work that way. Best way to show that is with a real life example.

It's exactly the samne, Bra "lost control" and that guy "lost control".
whether anybody ever bothered to teach either of them to control their anger, or if they both have an abusive dad, doesn't change the fact that they are both murderers.
Except, there's a difference when control is forcefully taken away from you. 12 year-old Bra was beaten up and forced to go SSJ2. She was forced to unleash the power she couldn't control. It's not really her fault when she had no choice, is it? Not that she even knew it would result in such destruction to begin with. Meaning what she did back then was not murder whether Dragon Balls can fix it or not.

"But wait! She was supposed to feel bad for killing Goten! But she only cared that she surpassed Gohan! She's a horrible person because of that!" No, it doesn't automatically mean she's a horrible person, because it's reasonable even for a good person in Bra's position to react like that in a world where Dragon Balls are used to fix things all the time.

See the point? It's not that destroying a planet and killing Goten makes Bra a bad person and Dragon Balls are there to justify her actions. It's more like Bra was already not at fault before we even consider the facts where Dragon Balls become relevant.

Dr Raichi was saying: freaky was saying: Dr Raichi was saying: freaky was saying: pofehof was saying: CrystalMV was saying:


I dislike her enormously.

No shit. It shows.

Killing somebody in a state like babidis control or baby Gokus great ape state is not legally murder. And sure as hell is not comparable with real life, mundane examples of people just losing their shit and slapping people. Hell, Goku, even non ape mode, is a baby. He legally is not able to commit a crime nor is he responsible for his actions in any way morally.



Squirz was saying:



Obviously new in the sense she was not in OG DBZ.
Gohan was never told by his father that he would kill him. I did not say anything about it beeing traumatic, no doubt it is, but my point was, she needs to try everything to get her powers under controll because she gets killed otherwise.

"Vegeta is perhaps one if not the most devolped character written by Toriyama."

That's not saying much. Your point anyway?

"you people are just mad that she is a new character that's far stronger then the old guard"

"Anyway point to that strength, more than a half is underserved and whole genetic factor is like saying: "She is the Choosen One." "

Lol.

Anyway, I guess it's alright if Gohan does it.


"Why do we dislike her? Cause she is main face of this comic."

Please reread this comment section and try that one again.


Argelios was saying:
>It doesn't matter she loses control in space because she saved Vegetto.
>It doesn't matter she killed Zangya because she didn't wanted to.
>It doesn't matter she trashtalks everyone because she is immature.
>It doesn't matter she mocks U19 members because she promises them her wish.
>It doesn't matter she insults her father and brothers because they are morons.
>It doesn't matter she disregards her promise to U19 because she won her fight.
>It doesn't matter she got destroyed by Cold because she had senzus.
>It doesn't matter she got her body changed because it got fixed immediately.
>It doesn't matter she almost destroys Earth as a child because IT'S just child psychology.
>It doesn't matter she considers everyone "worthless" because her father taught her how to kill people instead of manners.
>It doesn't matter she considers herself "the strongest god" because her father taught her to be a policeman.
>It doesn't matter she destroyed a solar system and killed Goten because there are Dragon Balls.
>It doesn't matter she killed everyone as a Majin because she was mind controlled.
>It doesn't matter she got her arm chopped up because she has more senzus.
>It doesn't matter she ran out of senzus because she stole more senzus.
>It doesn't matter she broke the spell only because of her ego because she has traumas.
>It doesn't matter because she acknowledges it's her fault.
>It doesn't matter she was possesed because Vegeta was too.
>It doesn't matter she was possesed because adolescence is the most vulnerable and delicate part of life.
>It doesn't matter you don't feel bad for Bra because "it will judge you as future parents or if you'll ever be one"
>It doesn't matter you don't like Bra because she isn't written to be likeable.
You are here.
>"It doesn't matter Vegetto, stop punching her because she was the victim!"
>It doesn't matter because everyone will be resurrected after 5 minutes and the stadium will be fixed.
>It doesn't matter she killed Gohan because he forgives her after resurrecting.
>It doesn't matter she doesn't stop being cocky because thats her personality.
>It doesn't matter because Bra "is the best written character in DBM right now."
>It doesn't matter because she will help defeat Vegetto when he loses control.
>It doesn't matter she didn't got a good arc because she still has a long journey after the comic ends!

Jesus... there supposed to be some kind of argument in there? Anyway, if you are honest, you could find examples of nearly everything you criticize here in DBZ and in it's original characters.

Guess beeing arrogant because of your power, trashtalking and risky actions are only cool if Vegeta does it. At least Bra can back up her trashtalk most of the time.


Squirz was saying:


"In a sense that she wasn't in original DBZ? This manga is most popular fan made DBZ manga and there is no deny. "

Please tell me more about what I meant when I said what I said.

"When Gohan got underserved amounts of power?"

Convenient rage powerups, superior genetic make up, secret powers unlocked multiple times...

"Heck Salagir even made her SSJ2 to be stronger transformation then normal one."

Stated where? She is just stronger than most. That's like saying Gogeta's SSJ is somehow different then the normal one. It isn't. He is just much stronger then most.

"Like, I said no one is here crying that she is more powerful than Vegeta and you are still here to disprove that."

You getting mad and grasping at straws about undeserved power is more than enough. And people bring that up every page she is on.

"This one doesn't disprove the fact and does not mean that I dislike her because she is stronger than Vegeta. I dislike cause she is badly written character with this type of trope."

Badly written how? It's completely consistent with the lore if you consider Goten and Trunks strenght in relation to Gohans at their age and the Power of there fathers when they were conceived. What is badly written about her character? She is full of herself and arrogant because of her power. If that's badly written so is Cell, Vegeta, the Androids... At least she is a teenager. Your run of the mill normal teen is arrogant and full of himself already.

2She is main character of this manga and that's a fact. She has far more panels than any other character. She is also supposed to be the one who will save universe from "Vegetto" according to U16 Novelization."

Ok? And? that has to do what with the points that are made against her here?

"I enjoy Zen Buu (his other originalish character) a lot."

I guess it's only a Mary Sue if it's a strong, arrogant and trashtalking girl and not Buu.

Dr Raichi was saying: freaky was saying: Dr Raichi was saying: freaky was saying: pofehof was saying: CrystalMV was saying:


I dislike her enormously.

No shit. It shows.

Killing somebody in a state like babidis control or baby Gokus great ape state is not legally murder. And sure as hell is not comparable with real life, mundane examples of people just losing their shit and slapping people. Hell, Goku, even non ape mode, is a baby. He legally is not able to commit a crime nor is he responsible for his actions in any way morally.



Squirz was saying: Vagabond was saying:
I honestly begin to think you people are just mad that she is a new character that's far stronger then the old guard. And for some it seems to be even worse because she is a girl.


New Character? 12? 11? years since she was introduced. As a matter of fact I liked her character at the beginning. But further you go it's getting worse.
"Cause she is girl." Point out one of Bra "haters" who has issue with her biological sex? Heck, I don't see haters of Pan, other Bra or Videl here.
"Far stronger then the old guard." Again I never saw somehow here crying that she is stronger than Vegeta. Vegeta is perhaps one if not the most devolped character written by Toriyama. If you think we care much about how strong she is, you are gravely mistaken. For example I dislike original DBZ Broly, I disliked him long before DBS came with revamped Broly. However, that Broly was a movie, well technically he was in 2 movies (Bio-Broly is a tumor) and not main character of whole manga. If Vegetto threatening Bra was this "Super traumatic experience of hers" Gohan with his experiences should have grew up to be dictator.

Anyway point to that strength, more than a half is underserved and whole genetic factor is like saying: "She is the Choosen One."

Why do we dislike her? Cause she is main face of this comic.

Obviously new in the sense she was not in OG DBZ.
Gohan was never told by his father that he would kill him. I did not say anything about it beeing traumatic, no doubt it is, but my point was, she needs to try everything to get her powers under controll because she gets killed otherwise.

"Vegeta is perhaps one if not the most devolped character written by Toriyama."

That's not saying much. Your point anyway?

"you people are just mad that she is a new character that's far stronger then the old guard"

"Anyway point to that strength, more than a half is underserved and whole genetic factor is like saying: "She is the Choosen One." "

Lol.

Anyway, I guess it's alright if Gohan does it.


"Why do we dislike her? Cause she is main face of this comic."

Please reread this comment section and try that one again.


Argelios was saying:
>It doesn't matter she loses control in space because she saved Vegetto.
>It doesn't matter she killed Zangya because she didn't wanted to.
>It doesn't matter she trashtalks everyone because she is immature.
>It doesn't matter she mocks U19 members because she promises them her wish.
>It doesn't matter she insults her father and brothers because they are morons.
>It doesn't matter she disregards her promise to U19 because she won her fight.
>It doesn't matter she got destroyed by Cold because she had senzus.
>It doesn't matter she got her body changed because it got fixed immediately.
>It doesn't matter she almost destroys Earth as a child because IT'S just child psychology.
>It doesn't matter she considers everyone "worthless" because her father taught her how to kill people instead of manners.
>It doesn't matter she considers herself "the strongest god" because her father taught her to be a policeman.
>It doesn't matter she destroyed a solar system and killed Goten because there are Dragon Balls.
>It doesn't matter she killed everyone as a Majin because she was mind controlled.
>It doesn't matter she got her arm chopped up because she has more senzus.
>It doesn't matter she ran out of senzus because she stole more senzus.
>It doesn't matter she broke the spell only because of her ego because she has traumas.
>It doesn't matter because she acknowledges it's her fault.
>It doesn't matter she was possesed because Vegeta was too.
>It doesn't matter she was possesed because adolescence is the most vulnerable and delicate part of life.
>It doesn't matter you don't feel bad for Bra because "it will judge you as future parents or if you'll ever be one"
>It doesn't matter you don't like Bra because she isn't written to be likeable.
You are here.
>"It doesn't matter Vegetto, stop punching her because she was the victim!"
>It doesn't matter because everyone will be resurrected after 5 minutes and the stadium will be fixed.
>It doesn't matter she killed Gohan because he forgives her after resurrecting.
>It doesn't matter she doesn't stop being cocky because thats her personality.
>It doesn't matter because Bra "is the best written character in DBM right now."
>It doesn't matter because she will help defeat Vegetto when he loses control.
>It doesn't matter she didn't got a good arc because she still has a long journey after the comic ends!

Jesus... there supposed to be some kind of argument in there? Anyway, if you are honest, you could find examples of nearly everything you criticize here in DBZ and in it's original characters.

Guess beeing arrogant because of your power, trashtalking and risky actions are only cool if Vegeta does it. At least Bra can back up her trashtalk most of the time.

Dr Raichi was saying: freaky was saying: pofehof was saying: CrystalMV was saying:
And U13 Krillin NOT being there surely doesn't change the fact (but to the contrary, seals it) that Kakarotto killed him. The point is that Kakarotto feeling bad about killing Krillin doesn't mean shit versus Bra not feeling bad about killing Goten if Krillin is dead while Goten is alive, right there.

Dude, Bra still killed Goten, whether she had control of herself or not, the least she could do is not be an ass to him. This is part of the reason why people don't like her.

ok il bring in my piece here

1 she didn't remember what she did she only just activated ssj2
2 she knows the dragonballs can fix everything which from a young age you take for granted

look at future trunks he has no dragonballs and doesnt take things for granted

everyone in u16 and 18 takes the dragonballs for granted

oh i killed my brother without knowing ....its ok dragonballs

so yeah im putting that on the table for you anti bra people

check mate

Good to know that if you had access to Dragon Balls in real life, you'd be perfectly willing to excuse murder. After all, it's not permanent and they DIDNT MEAN TOOOO
Thank god you don't.

Checkmate.

sooo when goku cant remember stepping on his grandfather and killing him and he doesnt rememeber doing it .....i guess his a murderer too

pofehof was saying: CrystalMV was saying:
And U13 Krillin NOT being there surely doesn't change the fact (but to the contrary, seals it) that Kakarotto killed him. The point is that Kakarotto feeling bad about killing Krillin doesn't mean shit versus Bra not feeling bad about killing Goten if Krillin is dead while Goten is alive, right there.

Dude, Bra still killed Goten, whether she had control of herself or not, the least she could do is not be an ass to him. This is part of the reason why people don't like her.

ok il bring in my piece here

1 she didn't remember what she did she only just activated ssj2
2 she knows the dragonballs can fix everything which from a young age you take for granted

look at future trunks he has no dragonballs and doesnt take things for granted

everyone in u16 and 18 takes the dragonballs for granted

oh i killed my brother without knowing ....its ok dragonballs

so yeah im putting that on the table for you anti bra people

check mate

Hussain was saying: After what she did to Gohan, her very patient brother who did absolutely everything to help her every step of the way, absolutely warranted.

And Gohan is Vegito's son. People keep glossing over this conveniently.

The fact that some people still defend this psychopathic brat from any sort of comeuppance is simply a matter of them thinking with the lower part of their body. Not their actual brains.

And people comparing her to Vegeta. Vegeta grew up in a shitty environment fighting for his survival and trained to be a killing machine.

Bra has had a loving family environment regardless of Vegito's parenting which is nowhere close to being abusive.

She has been given passes all her life. This is long overdue.

Have you conveniently skipped the part where she is literally mind controlled? Vegeta killed for his ego and because he liked to dominate and to kill. He literally says as much during Gokus fight with Buu. And despite having Family and a peaceful home he let himself be willingly controlled because he wanted to test himself against Goku. How are you Guys giving that a pass?

@last page
عمار was saying: Super Gojita 3 was saying: Rafael was saying: Dr Raichi was saying: I don't understand u13 Vegeta.

Is he angry Kakarotto became a ssj2?
I mean, lets be honest, Vegeta just got the perfect punching bag for training. And he's immortal.

Except now Kakarot can use his new SSJ2 level on top of his Great Ape form(apparently Buu taught him how to regrow his tail at will) and finally trucidates Vegeta.

Uh, what? Then why didn't he just regrow it vs vegeta again? or during the majin revolt? or against the androids? Or when he was with nappa in the safety of his room if it meant using his ki to squeeze it out?

like I see he revealed his tail vs u18 vegeta, but we don't know if he regrew it right there or if buu regrew it, and it was simply let out at that point. I'll check the novel

EDIT: The novel suggests he popped his tail out by concentrating, but it doesn't seem to suggest he can regrow it again.

I'm not saying he can't, but, was he afraid he couldn't enjoy killing as a ssj great ape as much as killing as a normal sized humanoid? kakarot even pre majin was insane to the point he'd kill all humans. Even bra went out of her pre majin to save u19, even if it was to gloat and show off how cool and strong she was. Obnoxious gloating while saying she'd save someones universe is still better than genocide while in their right mind and not under any mind altering magic.

Hmm, I guess kakarot was under the effects of that brain washing thing, whatever it was that caused him to be liek he was, but even so, most saiyans don't have that problem and just genocide planets anyway and for fun. I'm guessing some bonds he had caused some issues, because he had to kill his friends. like krillin and the likes of grandpa gohan, even if it was a short lived relation.




DrewSaga was saying: Did Zen Buu leave out all the cool, exciting parts out? Like when Piccolo turned Frieza into Namekian Swiss Cheese with his Hellzone Cannon? Or that one time when U16 Gohan pwned Cold, Kakarotto, Nappa and Cell while U18 Gohan pwned U11 Buu and Bardock. Or when Ginyu changed bodies left and right after slitting his throat in said bodies. I know he did in fact leave out U9's story on purpose just so he could see Mystic Raditz fight U13 SSJ3 Vegeta.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: عمار was saying: Super Gojita 3 was saying: I feel this is the explanation for why vegetto doesn't train her ssj2. he got annoyed at training her ssj1 and let gohan do it. As a ssj2, he can't handle that degree of power.

I say "explanation" not "excuse". if vegetto were more patient like goku, he'd just go ssj and wait in the chamber and let her go bonkers as a ssj2 and wait til she gets tired and repeat until she gets a degree of control, but he's not purely goku, he's part vegeta who didn't really train with trunks, deciding to train himself and get assj for himself, and trunks followed suit. I think in dbs it was retconned they did some light sparring until they got assj, but thats about it and any dbs changes aren't relevant to dbm. dbz painted vegeta as being "leave me alone. I train alone."

so his stubborn vegeta side molds him to not have the patience to wait in the HTC doing nothing while bra wastes time beign a psycho.

So while its vegettos fault for not wanting to train bra, its her own fault for not finding other means to train the form and her fault for beign a sociopath after finding out she killed her own brother.

She is not blameless, and I do see most things she does as her fault for not taking responsibility after the fact.

& Why are you asuming Vegetto never train SSJ Bra? He got right into it after he cooled down.



Super Gojita 3 was saying: I think there is a certain misunderstanding here. Salagir has used in the novel (sigh) that the saiyans have an evil nature to them, and only the likes of goku and vegeta overcame this nature. vegeta taking years to do so, and goku hit his head and with an injury, he did so.

Vegetto is more saiyan than saiyan due to his potara merging, an ultra double saiyan or whatever the term is. so he has this evil nature but is exponentially worse. he overcame it by having goku and vegetas combined experience and was by default doing "pretty good" but still has moments of over the top anger from this nature, like "wanting to crack gohans skull" among other novel only examples.

Bra is a double saiyan hybrid. So she should have an easier time than say a natural double saiyan, but those don't really exist other than vegetto who already over came that by default mostly.

That's really a weak & stupid reason to explain why is she like this. & It still wouldn't explain why the hell she never showed empathy for destroying a whole planet & killing her own half-brother. Like for god sake even U13 Kakarotto has more empathy than her.


And another example is U13 Raditz, a full-blood saiyan has an empathy.

I don't tell me Raditz said that because Kakarotto is immortal, Me & you both know Raditz wouldn't kill him either way because he actually care for him. He's become what U13 Vegeta describe as "soft saiyan".

So there it is, even if I buy the idea that Bra's behaver is because she's an "ultra double saiyan", that still wouldn't explain her lack of empathy.

> Why are you asuming Vegetto never train SSJ Bra? He got right into it after he cooled down.

I didn't say "never train period" I said didn't train her ssj and her ssj2.



and then gohan trained her to stay ssj without issue, not vegetto.







anything vegetto did was after gohan did all the work on her ssj.

>That's really a weak & stupid reason to explain why is she like this.

well, thats the reason most saiyans were horrifically evil in dbm.

>Like for god sake even U13 Kakarotto has more empathy than her.

ah, no I would say kakarotto has almost as much as her. I have seen kakarot show emotion before, but it was possibly as often maybe less than her. she cried at pans ressurection, the time now, and showed remorse for killing zangya if only slightly, because she wasn't trying to, but rather just ko her according to salagir and duplicate gokus act of air kihoing zangya, which she sucks at ki control and control in general. I don't count her half assed apology for almost blowing up earth, and I barely count zangya either.

kakarot was like sad twice? both for krillin I guess. and kakarot also enjoys killing everyone while bra was only going to enjoy killing and torturing zangya in her base form. like both are terrible people, and I say kakarot is barely worse. Bra simply glossed over killing goten while kakarot would probably enjoy killing goten even without beign a majin. There was some debate kakarot was also a rapist too, but that was shot down by salagir.

kakarots kills are all usually in person and not done from afar like when she blew up that planet and solar system, often choosing to relish the kill personally, and while she might have a bigger kill count, and even that might be a stretch we don't know his kill total, 99% of her kills were due to ssj2 psycho mode, a majin seal bringing out her usually suppressed evil side, or some other thing.

Though I think we do agree she is a fucking ass hole, and has only slightly improved since her lack of remores on the hera planet.

>And another example is U13 Raditz, a full-blood saiyan has an empathy.

these examples are all the exception, not the rule. 99% of saiyans are evil barbarians. the only exceptions in canon were goku and vegeta, and keep in mind radditz isn't giving up killing, just keeping the genocide on a small scale. so he has like 1 person he doesn't want to kill. Thats not exactly the example you want to show.

>So there it is, even if I buy the idea that Bra's behaver is because she's an "ultra double saiyan", that still wouldn't explain her lack of empathy.

You misunderstand me again.

ok, so while its not a get out of free card, its simply her nature, just like how kakarot and radditz are evil by nature as well who only slightly are better than 99% of saiyans but will still genocide without a care in the world, choosign to do so less than what u13 vegeta wants.

So while bra has an evil nature, she is still responsible for her actions and so on. Of course she would be responsible for her own actions, it just means she has more work to do than most people.

Think of it like parthanaax in skyrim.



“What is better ? to be born good or to overcome your evil nature through great effort ?”

dragons are inherently evil in skyrim, and parthanaax worked hard to overcome his evil nature. Bra has very much that work load, but she's failing at doing so where as partysnaxx succeeded and he's a fan favorite among elder scrolls fans.

So Parthanaax is the U18 Vegeta of Dragons?

"What is better, to be born good or overcome evil through great effort"

I suppose we will find out when Goku and Vegeta of U18 fight each other.

>So Parthanaax is the U18 Vegeta of Dragons?

I guess. Except Parthanaax trains other dragons not to be evil. vegeta doesn't train other saiyans to be less evil. He did however kill nappa, thus removing another typical saiyan bastard from the universe, so less evil over all.
It seems you didn't get my point. I'm not talking about who's more evil, I'm talking about that her being an ultra double saiyan or whatever does not explain her lack of empathy & remorse after she learned what she did.

CrystalMV was saying: It's entirely possible Bra didn't feel bad about destroying a planet and killing Goten because she knew the damage could be undone. I'm not so sure she would take it lightly if the deaths she had caused were permanent.

That still doesn't make it okay buddy! In the novel, Raditz begged U13 Vegeta to heal Kakarotto after his fight with U18 Vegeta even though he know Kakarotto is immortal.

CrystalMV was saying: And comparing her to U13 Kakarotto and Raditz, seriously?
Yes, Seriously! Because These had showed empathy to each other more than Bra ever done to her brothers.

CrystalMV was saying: Bra was shown to feel bad for her actions numerous times.
numerous times you say? Did she felt bad when she almost destroyed the earth? No. Did she felt bad when she destroyed a planet & killed her brother? No, she didn't.

CrystalMV was saying: Salagir said she has never purposefully hurt anyone innocent when in control of herself.
It doesn't matter, Because she doesn't f$cking care!!!

CrystalMV was saying: And we know she revived her victims after she was told to do so by Vegetto, but chances are, she would have done it regardless if there was no one else to do it. Now, did Kakarotto revive Krillin? No, he wished for immortality.
We don't know when did Kakarotto killed Krillin, maybe he did tried to but he killed Kami before him? & if he didn't he was following orders just like Bra's. But you know what's the different? Kakarotto was so upset about killing Krillin.


Bra's on the other hand:



CrystalMV was saying: It's funny how people say Bra is a horrible person and her tears don't mean shit, but then take Kakarotto's supposed regret as a sign of empathy.
Yes, it doesn't when you keep repeating the same thing over & over, killing your brother & not feeling anything about it & 4 years after doing the same shit & Now she start crying? & expect us to feel sympathy for her? hell no.

CrystalMV was saying: You know, the difference is that Bra doesn't continue killing if she feels bad about it.
That's funny, because that's exactly what she been doing. & by the way, this the first time she felt bad about killing because last time we saw her she didn't.

CrystalMV was saying: As opposed to Kakarotto who felt bad for killing Krillin but still stood by it.
Kakarotto only felt bad about killing Krillin but not killing in general.

CrystalMV was saying: So whose remorse is more genuine?
Kakarotto of course. Because he did felt remorse about killing unlike Bra who didn't feel remorse at all.

CrystalMV was saying: If anything, Bra and Kakarotto have both good and evil in them
You know, I'm still waiting for Salagir to show us the good in Bra.

CrystalMV was saying: and Bra is trying to overcome the evil aspects of her nature
Was she? I must have missed then...

CrystalMV was saying: How far people go just to make Bra appear worst of the worst. She does have big issues that she needs to work on. But compare her to Kakarotto, Raditz, Prince Vegeta, Freeza, King Piccolo? She's almost an angel compared to them.






Funny, I don't see a lot of difference between them & this angel you speaking of. But difference is between them & her is that they have a very good reason to be the way they are & don't get me wrong, I'm not defending them, They're all assholes villains, & most if not all of them are beyond redemption(& I don't want to see one). But still, they all have a good reason to be evil. But about Bra? why is she like this? Because "hormones"? -__-
Alright, first of all, every time Bra hurt the innocents, it was when she wasn't in control of herself. When she almost destroyed the Earth, that was just a reckless thing to do, she was just a little kid, and besides, she knew Gohan would be able to block her attack. When she destroyed a planet and killed Goten, she did it because she wasn't able to control herself, and while existence of dragon balls doesn't automatically make it okay, that's still way better than atrocities of Kakarotto and other villains. She never intended to kill those people and in the end, she revived them.

It's true that Bra is supposed to be more respectful towards Goten if she wants to atone his death, but you see, the comparison with Kakarotto killing Krillin just doesn't work. Wanna know why? Because Krillin is dead. Goten isn't. Kakarotto feels bad because he no longer has Krillin. Bra doesn't feel bad because Goten is right there. If U13 Krillin was alive, not only Kakarotto wouldn't feel bad, he would kill Krillin once again.

Bra was shown to feel remorse when she injured Gohan and Vegetto while fighting Buu in space. She slightly regretted killing Zangya too, after she found out Bojack didn't give a shit. Even though the bitch kind of deserved it. Bra also took it upon herself to fight for survival of U19. And now, after snapping back in control, she genuinely feels bad about what she did when she was not in control of herself. She's not trying to get those thoughts out of her head by punching herself in the face, and is not repeating to herself that her victims deserved to die. That's what makes her remorse more credible than Kakarotto's.

She's not an angel in general, but she's an angel compared to the villains. Your comparison of Freeza and Bra doesn't mention that Bra didn't intend to do what she did and in the end she cleaned up after herself. Making a mess vs making a mess and cleaning up, that's a huge difference.

@this page

And now she showed that she's willing to take responsibility for what she did. Hopefully others will step in and talk Vegetto down, and then they can settle it on good terms.

Dr Raichi was saying: Also, I know Raditz will be mystic at some point. But I hope it's handled in such a way that the payoff is worth it.

I you dont have hidden potential (like Gohan) the Old Kai's ritual is useless.
The payoff will probably be that he is not that much stronger.

Anyway, Vegetto, this is on you, so take care of your daughter.

Dr Raichi was saying: Venkolm was saying: عمار was saying: Did Buu read the thoughts of the people in the arena or us the readers?
 :|

Dr Raichi was saying: I don't understand u13 Vegeta.

Is he angry Kakarotto became a ssj2?
I mean, lets be honest, Vegeta just got the perfect punching bag for training. And he's immortal.
Because he's a threat to him?

Indeed. Lets say you play a game, where you are level 3 for a long time, and ur rival is level 2. And you get used to that, its all cool. Then you are happy about unlocking the next level. Only to find out a lil' later - so did ur rival.

Goku and Vegeta are "rivals, in that it's believable Vegeta could surpass Goku and vice versa.
Sure by the end of Z, Vegeta's a whole level behind, but Goku had only recently reached that level and Vegeta was already equal to ssj2 Goku.
It's implied he's closed the gap since.


Kakarotto and Vegeta are not rivals. A ssj3 doesn't have to worry about a ssj1. Sure, now he's a ssj2, but that took him like 60 years. It's not like he'll be a ssj3 next year. Meanwhile, Vegeta is a ssj3, he broke through that wall, he'll keep getting stronger.

It's not realistic to imagine Kakarotto surpassing Vegeta anytime soon. He's chasing Vegeta, but Vegeta is clearly superior. Ergo Vegeta doesn't need to worry about him.

If anything, as I said, he now has a better punching bag when he trains, I'd imagine without Kakarotto around Vegeta's next strongest sparing partner is Nappa. An 80+ saiyan who's getting old and can't transform. I'd imagine that would create Vegito levels of frustration, if there's no one around you can really hit.

We saw this with Broly too, he became so excited upon Vegeta showing him he's a ssj, he wanted to start the fight right there, in the cafeteria. And they were much closer in power than Kakarotto and Vegeta are.

Saiyans crave a good fight after all.

I think vegeta is annoyed because his advantage shrunk. es, ssj3 is still stronger than ssj2, but the down side of ssj3 is worse than the down side of ssj2.

If vegeta doesn't fight smart when dealing with kakarot, vegeta could be killed by kakarot if he powers down from ssj3 fatigue.

And lets not forget kakarot wants to kill both u18 vegeta and his u13 counterpart. So being annoyed at u13 kakarot gaining a 1 level boost means he has to be extra careful.

There are work arounds, but it'd be annoying to have to do that. Maybe we'll get a long term solution in the vein of vegeta pummeling ssj2 kakarot into dust, and then putting his ashes in a space pod, that space pod going into a local sun or star, and vegeta asking a psychic somewhere if he can pin point kakarots location to make sure nothign went awry with his decision to exile kakarot where he can't return, even as an immortal so soon.

Dr Raichi was saying: I don't understand u13 Vegeta.

Is he angry Kakarotto became a ssj2?
I mean, lets be honest, Vegeta just got the perfect punching bag for training. And he's immortal.
I'd say he's angry because he's both far outclassed and irrelevant and if it wasn't already obvious, it is now. He didn't play a major role in this saga because he was on the stranded planet with the others. But now he understands that even if he had been there, he still wouldn't had been a major player, no matter which side he'd fight against. He would have been outclassed and quickly put aside either way.

After being the Emperor and the most powerful of his universe for decades and used to things being this way, he's back to being a side-bitch that no one cares about, quite strong but not exceptional, and most importantly, not the center of attention, just like he was during Freeza days. And that's very harsh on his fragile ego.

That's the impression I get, anyway.

عمار was saying: Did Buu read the thoughts of the people in the arena or us the readers?
 :|

Dr Raichi was saying: I don't understand u13 Vegeta.

Is he angry Kakarotto became a ssj2?
I mean, lets be honest, Vegeta just got the perfect punching bag for training. And he's immortal.
Because he's a threat to him?

Indeed. Lets say you play a game, where you are level 3 for a long time, and ur rival is level 2. And you get used to that, its all cool. Then you are happy about unlocking the next level. Only to find out a lil' later - so did ur rival.

Squirz was saying:
Not exactly. It's more like "Let's say that someone put drugs in my drink without me noticing and I kill a person while going back home in a driving incident". In that case, whose fault is it? Mine? Of the person who put drugs in my drink? Both?

Can't say for sure how law interprets this kind of scenario.

The law says it is actually the person driving depending on the circumstances.

Let's say the accident results in the other party's death, so we can keep the charges as obvious as possible.

The way the law interprets this, the person who put the drugs in the drink could get charged with manslaughter. The person who had put the drugs in the drink can not ever be charged with anything higher than Third-Degree Murder, due to their being no malice aforethought put into killing the random person you hit on the way home. That is, however, only if the drugs cause an almost instantaneous knock out to the person who drank the drink.

If the drink is not an instantaneous pass out for the drinker, it is their duty to pull over as soon as possible when they feel signs of not feeling well. If the driver is still able to make conscious decisions, they are the one to blame, and are charged with manslaughter at best, and third-degree murder at worst.

The case's verdict comes down to subjective opinion at the very end. Is person B guilty since they drugged person A? Or is person A still guilty for knowing they were not feeling well and still driving anyway. In terms of the eyes of the law, the best answer I can provide is both.

@Ashanark
>Unfortunately we have to deal with Buu saga vagueness here. In the manga, Gohan couldn't land a hit on Buutenks; Buuhan was even stronger than that (though ambiguously), and Buuhan couldn't do any damage to SS1 Vegito.
Gohan couldn't land a hit on Buutenks, no. But Gohan was able to escape his ring attack, and we didn't see whether or not Buu could one shot Gohan. When he went for the kill against a hurt Gohan, he was going to use a kamehameha. (Though tbf, that was probably because it seemed fitting.)

Neither Gohan managed to land a hit on Bra, outside of the teleport punch. Cell also got one hit in, just as Bra teleported. Their only successes outside of that involved teamwork. I reckon if the team that fought Bra went up against a Buutenks level opponent (without regeneration or senzu, cause that really screws with things), they'd definitely win.

Buuhan couldn't do anything to Vegetto, but you also don't really see Vegetto causing intense damage to Buu just through singular physical attacks, like we saw with Cell vs Gohan in the original manga. And you also see Vegetto blocking instead of just tanking. Granted, Buu's regeneration and Vegetto playing around makes it difficult to properly determine the difference between them.

Personally, I think adding these gaps leads to the ability to one shot an opponent with a good hit. Which Bra can do. Her difficulties can be put down to having to protect Babidi initially and not fighting as effectively as she could have been for much of the fight.

>On page 278 base Vegito is put on the same tier as Gohan, and on 1260 Salagir said:
>> Because it was stated even a starving Vegetto was able to defeat Mystic Gohan
>If I remember well, they fought quite evenly.
>Gohan said in chapter 11 of the U16 fanfic that "I’ll have to use all my strength to stand up to him", so assuming Vegito was well-fed and not about to collapse from exhaustion (which he did), I think it's safe to say base Vegito would beat him even without techniques.
So, perhaps the Vegetto of the tournament is able to fight evenly (or close enough) with Gohan. Salagir may have said that they fought evenly in chapter 11, but that's because that's what happened. That doesn't mean Gohan fought all out, because as we've seen/read, he very rarely does that. There's this line from chapter 20 of the U16 fanfic:

“I know. Yet you never fought better than years back, when you fought against Buu, Ah, I remember that one! Motivation can change everything with you!”

and there's also the lines from Salagir about Gohan's fight with Cell. This leads me to think that even when Gohan is serious, he's fighting at a SSj3 tier level (whatever that means...). This also works with Vegetto's desire to get a real fight out of Gohan, and thinking that it would require hurting Pan.

I forget why we're discussing this specifically, but I'll also add my suggestion that fusion transformations are much less of a power up due to their bases being much higher in strength. Probably cause some of their potential gets added to their base for some reason. Otherwise, Gotenks is ridiculous and the scaling of the Buu arc makes no sense at all.

>Even disregarding sneak attacks, Cell was able to throw hands with Bra a few times for a few moments, which Buuhan never did with Vegito in the manga (Vegito just blocked with his knees.)
My interpretation of this is that Bra was playing around. She's smiling during it, while Cell is not. Blocking with your legs vs blocking with your body isn't necessarily a difference.

>According to Salagir, Cell is still weaker than Gohan--something I'd argue is not well-supported by the webcomic, but oh well. So even if authorial intent was for SS2 Bra >= SS1 Vegito, it wasn't portrayed very well; everything I've seen of SS1 Vegito indicates he could clean up everyone there quickly and effortlessly.
Yeah just based on the comic, I wouldn't assume Cell is really weaker than Gohan. I could imagine a minor difference, with Cell making up for it with skill. But that's it. Do we know that the Cell that fought Bra (as opposed to Gohan) is still weaker than Gohan?

SSj2 Bra could clean up everyone quickly as well. If not for the senzu, she would've functionally killed Gohan, Cell, and Nedwook within 6 pages. She would've likely killed Cell in their first interaction during the first chapter if it wasn't for protecting Babidi.

I'm going to acknowledge that my view of SSj Vegetto's strength is probably not a common one. I don't view his manga fight as suggesting that he's far far stronger than Buuhan, while most people seem to do so. The anime certainly goes with the idea that Vegetto's strength is patently absurd.

>I agree. We've seen his good and bad qualities from the start, we've understood his situation from the start, we've seen people call him out for his flaws, and we've seen him try to work out both his own issues and Bra's as well as he can. If anything I'd argue Vegito's the opposite problem as Bra: he's too sympathetic. It seems a stretch Vegeta not going "you're better than me, Kakarot" is enough badness to overpower all of Goku's personality to make Vegito evil. Still, Salagir's laid the groundwork, so assuming he gives Vegito's Face-Heel turn enough time to develop naturally I'd be okay with it. And I hope he does: Vegito snapping is the big event of DBM.
Agree with pretty much all of this. But I'll add that I think Vegeta or Goku, without someone to train with on equalish levels, could also lead to some negative traits surfacing. And that I think Vegetto's negative traits are part of that. I haven't looked into it, but it's possible Goku's assholish behaviour during the Buu arc could be related to not having a challenge in the afterlife? (Especially in the manga.)

>I agree. I think Vegito's rampage will have something to do with XXI. I'm guessing Vegito doesn't make it out of DBM alive, but that might be a little dark... If not, he'll have to have his own redemption arc, which will now be a retread, to some extent, of Bra's. Thanks, Bra...
If Vegetto does get a redemption, I hope it's a bit different than hers. Perhaps he could sacrifice himself, while reflecting on the toxicity his actions have brought to Universe 16. Or something.

@Darius
>Bra was obviously told that cell came back from his suicide attempt
When? What chapter? What page?

>when told about who cell was.
When? What chapter? What page?

Sure, Vegito knows, but when has Bra fought Cell before the tournament? When was Cell in her bracket, or someone she needed to study? U16 Pan didn't know who Bojack was--Gohan had to tell her he was a bad man. But U16 Bra knows all the most intricate details about Cell? When did this offscreen briefing occur? If Bra only knows something, or can only do something, because of something happening offscreen... that's not good writing.

More and more often in DBM we have to assume things. We have to assume Bra somehow learned about Cell's nucleus. We have to assume she had time and means to put the bean in her mouth against Cold, and that she "always had" beans in her glove. We have to assume Ginyu learned how to curve his beam, and we have to assume he had time to switch with some offscreen mook when we didn't see him do so. We have to assume Gast somehow survived when Vegeta blasted him and escaped detection long enough to regenerate and suddenly reappear behind Raichi. It's sloppy.

Speaking of Dr. Raichi, he pointed out something very pertinent (and troubling) just now:
>And it has the anoying side effect of making Gohan look dumber than he is, after all, he didn't think of it, but Bra did. So Gohans loses face to make Bra look good.
Why is it the guy who literally killed Cell got duped, but Bra, who'd never fought Cell before in her life, didn't? I can only imagine it was to show how much more awesome Bra is than Gohan.

@Turbocharger
I agree. I would've been fine with Cell simply being out of the fight--he'd taken major damage, ran out of energy, and was pinned down. Having Bra blast him and specifically look for his nucleus afterward was unnecessary.

>At the very least, Bra's victory can be justified by the possibility that she only won because of the Majin Boost
And according to Word of God, Bra gets to keep that Majin Boost. So in summation: she's a terrible person, she's not to blame for killing all those people since Babidi made her do it because she's such a terrible person, and she's now permanently stronger because of it. Sigh.

>In my opinion, this somewhat alleviates the fact that the heroes lost, because they did as good as they ended up doing despite such a huge disadvantage.
It's definitely to their credit Bra had to run for the reset button twice. Still, I'm not a fan of it for several reasons. First, it means the fight had lots of motion, but not much progress: if nothing the heroes did accomplished anything, why spend so much time on it?

Second, I can't ignore the fact the heroes could've done better, in very obvious ways: for one thing, Bra only got that second senzu due to Idiot Ball on their part. I think there are ways to show the heroes fighting at their best and smartest, and have Bra also fight at her best and smartest: Arcady Picardy's draft did better at this.

Third, Bra struggling at all doesn't make much sense to me. Salagir retconned SS2 Bra to be stronger than SS1 Vegito. Do we honestly think SS1 Vegito would've had any problems with any of these people? It'd just feel wrong to watch it, wouldn't it? (Base Vegito is more than enough for Gohan in DBM, even without techniques.) So having Bra struggle to win a fight she should've won easily, with her ending up winning over teamwork, with the fight itself not contributing to U18 Bra "defeating" her... I just think those last two chapters could've played out a lot, lot better. I wonder if Salagir changed his mind partway through that Bra should win.

> If Vegito's rampage happens tho, I wouldn't be surprised if he kills a few characters that Bra already killed.
I was talking to Skar-Faced Bandit the other day and he told me the main reason he didn't like Bra was because she was redundant: there was nothing she brought to the story that Vegito didn't already bring. We saw Evil Bra with Ginyu, we saw Evil Bra again with Majin Bra, and if the payoff on the Vegito vision is Evil Vegito, then he will have done nothing Bra didn't already do... and honestly, I wanted to see Evil Vegito more than I wanted to see Evil Bra.

Are we going to see another long, dragged out fight where the villain kills all the heroes? Are we going to see his breakdown and repentance? If so, spending time on Bra is just filler before we get to the main show. And if Vegito doesn't get redeemed--and we take Salagir at his word that Gogeta isn't going to happen, and that Goku and Vegeta have basically hit their ceiling in DBM--then who do we think is gonna beat Vegito? (Probably the person
recently retconned to have her SS2 stronger than his SS1!)

Ashanark was saying: It's good to see both Goku and Vegeta are Nice People.

@DrewSaga
In my opinion "She can't stop all of us!" is the high-water mark of DBM: we'd had a pretty good string of fights prior, the surprises in the chapter leading up to it were good, things were tough but a win was still doable, and the heroes had an opponent the readers really, really wanted to see taken down.

And then comes the payoff of "Well, actually... yes, she could stop all of you." It's quite the downer.

>she would have bled out in practice and lost early in reality.
This's a big problem I've had with DBM the past few years: many fights play out and resolve not because they logically should go that way, what with the PLs and abilities characters have been established to have. No, they often end a certain way because the writer wants them to. Bra would've lost if she didn't have senzu beans, therefore the story figures out ways for her to get healed. (I'm okay with the first senzu because she was established to have them; it was the later usage which got stupid.)

But there's a bigger issue at play here. Disregard all the various moments of Idiot Ball (why do the Heliotes fail to hit a stationary target Babidi with the element of surprise? Why do the contestants rush Bra one at a time instead of working together, after specifically pointing out they shouldn't do that? just to name two) and contrived storytelling (why does U16 Gohan's mini-Cell float off his head for no reason, allowing Bra to kill both with one chop? How did Bra know about Cell's reinforced nucleus despite being nowhere nearby when he revealed it, having no reason to suspect he'd developed it, and no on-screen indication she'd ever been told Cell had a nucleus at all? just to name two). Disregard how the saga boils down to "teamwork and sacrifice amount to nothing" (note: even the stranded contestants' teamwork was useless, too) with a dash of "by the way, your murderer will then get two whole specials showing she's sympathetic and it's not really her fault for gleefully killing you."

Disregarding all that, my question is: what is it that Bra winning does for the story, which Bra losing doesn't?

If Bra lost, she still gets to feel bad for killing Gohan afterward, when Majinization is dealt with. Whatever reaction she gets from U16, she'll still get once she's revived. Additionally, Bra now learns power isn't everything, since a bunch of "worthless" people were able to beat her by working together and being brave. I find that a much more convincing lesson than some random stranger who coincidentally shares her face calling her "passive". And, of course, the audience gets the satisfaction of finally seeing Bra lose for once--and as it turns out, failure is a much more convincing kickstart for Character Development than weird delvings into the ethics of mind control, berserker states, and whether it's murder if Dragon Balls can resurrect people.

It's one thing if Bra was presented as overwhelmingly powerful and won within a few pages (which would've made her win less sour in hindsight, and would've skipped a lot of filler.) It's another if the heroes were presented as perfectly capable of winning and yet Bra, the person who hadn't been defeated in 1500 pages, gets yet another win via massive Plot-Induced Stupidity and is "defeated" by a Deus Ex Machina that wasn't set up properly. This isn't even taking into account any possible consequences she may (or may not) face in the next few pages. Remember: Gast vs. Bra still has to happen, so it's likely not to be bad. I would've much preferred the heroes won.


I agree with most of it but the cell nucleus part. Bra was obviously told that cell came back from his suicide attempt when told about who cell was. It's not insane to think that she should be on watch for cells nucleus if he was ever destroyed. It wasn't a flop that bra was looking for it since cells nucleus was the crux of that final fight with cell.

Ashanark was saying: It's good to see both Goku and Vegeta are Nice People.

@DrewSaga
In my opinion "She can't stop all of us!" is the high-water mark of DBM: we'd had a pretty good string of fights prior, the surprises in the chapter leading up to it were good, things were tough but a win was still doable, and the heroes had an opponent the readers really, really wanted to see taken down.

And then comes the payoff of "Well, actually... yes, she could stop all of you." It's quite the downer.

>she would have bled out in practice and lost early in reality.
This's a big problem I've had with DBM the past few years: many fights play out and resolve not because they logically should go that way, what with the PLs and abilities characters have been established to have. No, they often end a certain way because the writer wants them to. Bra would've lost if she didn't have senzu beans, therefore the story figures out ways for her to get healed. (I'm okay with the first senzu because she was established to have them; it was the later usage which got stupid.)

But there's a bigger issue at play here. Disregard all the various moments of Idiot Ball (why do the Heliotes fail to hit a stationary target Babidi with the element of surprise? Why do the contestants rush Bra one at a time instead of working together, after specifically pointing out they shouldn't do that? just to name two) and contrived storytelling (why does U16 Gohan's mini-Cell float off his head for no reason, allowing Bra to kill both with one chop? How did Bra know about Cell's reinforced nucleus despite being nowhere nearby when he revealed it, having no reason to suspect he'd developed it, and no on-screen indication she'd ever been told Cell had a nucleus at all? just to name two). Disregard how the saga boils down to "teamwork and sacrifice amount to nothing" (note: even the stranded contestants' teamwork was useless, too) with a dash of "by the way, your murderer will then get two whole specials showing she's sympathetic and it's not really her fault for gleefully killing you."

Disregarding all that, my question is: what is it that Bra winning does for the story, which Bra losing doesn't?

If Bra lost, she still gets to feel bad for killing Gohan afterward, when Majinization is dealt with. Whatever reaction she gets from U16, she'll still get once she's revived. Additionally, Bra now learns power isn't everything, since a bunch of "worthless" people were able to beat her by working together and being brave. I find that a much more convincing lesson than some random stranger who coincidentally shares her face calling her "passive". And, of course, the audience gets the satisfaction of finally seeing Bra lose for once--and as it turns out, failure is a much more convincing kickstart for Character Development than weird delvings into the ethics of mind control, berserker states, and whether it's murder if Dragon Balls can resurrect people.

It's one thing if Bra was presented as overwhelmingly powerful and won within a few pages (which would've made her win less sour in hindsight, and would've skipped a lot of filler.) It's another if the heroes were presented as perfectly capable of winning and yet Bra, the person who hadn't been defeated in 1500 pages, gets yet another win via massive Plot-Induced Stupidity and is "defeated" by a Deus Ex Machina that wasn't set up properly. This isn't even taking into account any possible consequences she may (or may not) face in the next few pages. Remember: Gast vs. Bra still has to happen, so it's likely not to be bad. I would've much preferred the heroes won.

What ruined the nucleus moment for me was the realization that it wasn't even necessary.

Consider this: Cell's regeneration isn't instantaneous. To take him out of the fight, his nucleus didn't need to be destroyed. Bra could have easily blown him up, not known about the nucleus, and the whole thing can be handwaved by saying that Cell's regeneration was taking longer than usual and that U18 Bra had already stopped Making Bra by the time that he was back at full health.

With that, a major plot hole is cleared, and the chapter ends the same way. You can even stretch it further by saying that Cell doesn't kill U16 Bra after she goes back to normal because the other fighters arrive before he can make a move.

Honestly, the Majin Bra fight started out incredible imo, but the second chapter was a huge letdown. It didn't really pick back up for me until U18 Bra and Grand Supreme Kai showed up. I feel like the fight relied way too much on hope spots. Because the comic updates page by page, the fight felt a lot more slow paced than it actually was. Which makes a great deal of updates feel like "character has a plan/character launches an attack" followed by "the plan fails/the attack fails".

I'm probably in the minority that likes the idea of a character using Senzu Beans to cheat in a fight, especially a villainous character like Majin Bra, but since the beans contributed to my main issue with the fight, it just reinforced the feeling that the fight was a slog. If it weren't for the excessive hope spots it would have added a lot more tension that it did for me.

At the very least, Bra's victory can be justified by the possibility that she only won because of the Majin Boost. She was probably much more powerful than she already was, and the Majin Boost enhances durability, to the point where Videl couldn't do anything meaningful to Spopovich despite dominating him. She also can't control herself prior to the Majin Boost, which potentially means that she wouldn't be smart enough to use strategies like teleporting Gohan into space or eat Senzu Beans, or have enough ki control to summon her swords. Theoretically, she was much more threatening than she already was usually.

And despite these advantages, she still needed to use Senzu Beans twice. In my opinion, this somewhat alleviates the fact that the heroes lost, because they did as good as they ended up doing despite such a huge disadvantage. At the very least.




Blaze was saying: Vegeta's concern for Bra and Goku comforting Pan are good additions. Reeeeaally want to see U16 Pan's reaction to learning what Son Bra did.

I'm gonna be a bit confused/surprised if U18 Gohan is dead. If both Gohans die here, then Vegetto killing one later on won't be a big deal. Which leads me to suspect that he might not actually kill them, and that the vision might be imminent and involve him just holding up a dead Gohan's body?

It's gonna be a bit weird in general if the Gohans (or really, any major characters) die multiple times tbh.

Cover implies he lived. I guess he's just knocked out. If Vegito's rampage happens tho, I wouldn't be surprised if he kills a few characters that Bra already killed.

the Senzu beans are for Vegetto he would starve without it.
And maybe even Bra 16 as well half of the senzu's she swallowed where two at a time.

Dr Raichi was saying: Oh yes, someone said those senzu beans were forshadowed.

Examples of proper forshadowing:

— Numereus references being made to "the legendary super saiyan" in the namek saga. And Vegeta even repeatedly believing he is one.
— Android 16 ignoring the fight vs the z fighters to "watch some birds", forshadowing his peaceful nature.
— Gohan standing next to Goku when he powers up for Korin, saying "That's it?" While everyone else is freaking out.
— Goku and Vegeta drawing their first match in the tournament against each other. So we all knew "they are gonna fight at some point" even if the tournament was interrupted.

And also, and I cannot stress this enough, the main reason Toriyama doesn't have them constantly bringign in loads of senzu beans is because it would break all tension in the story, remove any sense of real accomplishment, and would, frankly, make all the fights very boring. Having characters repeatedly get beaten by the villain, only for them to eat a senzu bean and having this repeat 4 times in a single fight, would take all the fun out of it.


For this reason:
— When Goku arrives on Namek he conveniently has just enough senzu beans left to heal everyone once. Then has them scram and fights everyone on his own. Despite starting out with a full bag.
— When future Gohan loses his arm, there's only one senzu bean left, so he has to choose between saving Trunks, or regaining his arm. Wouldn't make as much impact if Gohan said, well, good thing we have more senzu's at home? huh.
— When Goku realizes he misunderstood Gohans personality and asks for a senzu bean, Cell conveniently takes that exact moment to steal them.
— When Gohan loses use of his left arm by protecting Vegeta, of course they don't have any senzu beans left.
— When Vegeta and Goku finish their fight early to fight Buu, of course Vegeta takes the last senzu bean.
— In the future of course Korin got killed. So no senzu beans for anyone.)
— When Goku HAS senzu beans when he's fighting Gero, of course he somehow decides to give them to Bulma, so the gang doesn't have them for a while.
— And of course, when Goku has his heart attack, somehow senzu beans don't fix him.

That's not a coincidence, that's toriyama writing a good story.

In my opinion having u16 come in with dozens of senzu beans was a mistake from the beginning.


Dr Raichi was saying: Darkstar was saying: Dr Raichi was saying: Oh yes, someone said those senzu beans were forshadowed.

Examples of proper forshadowing:

— Numereus references being made to "the legendary super saiyan" in the namek saga. And Vegeta even repeatedly believing he is one.
— Android 16 ignoring the fight vs the z fighters to "watch some birds", forshadowing his peaceful nature.
— Gohan standing next to Goku when he powers up for Korin, saying "That's it?" While everyone else is freaking out.
— Goku and Vegeta drawing their first match in the tournament against each other. So we all knew "they are gonna fight at some point" even if the tournament was interrupted.

And also, and I cannot stress this enough, the main reason Toriyama doesn't have them constantly bringign in loads of senzu beans is because it would break all tension in the story, remove any sense of real accomplishment, and would, frankly, make all the fights very boring. Having characters repeatedly get beaten by the villain, only for them to eat a senzu bean and having this repeat 4 times in a single fight, would take all the fun out of it.


For this reason:
— When Goku arrives on Namek he conveniently has just enough senzu beans left to heal everyone once. Then has them scram and fights everyone on his own. Despite starting out with a full bag.
— When future Gohan loses his arm, there's only one senzu bean left, so he has to choose between saving Trunks, or regaining his arm. Wouldn't make as much impact if Gohan said, well, good thing we have more senzu's at home? huh.
— When Goku realizes he misunderstood Gohans personality and asks for a senzu bean, Cell conveniently takes that exact moment to steal them.
— When Gohan loses use of his left arm by protecting Vegeta, of course they don't have any senzu beans left.
— When Vegeta and Goku finish their fight early to fight Buu, of course Vegeta takes the last senzu bean.
— In the future of course Korin got killed. So no senzu beans for anyone.)
— When Goku HAS senzu beans when he's fighting Gero, of course he somehow decides to give them to Bulma, so the gang doesn't have them for a while.
— And of course, when Goku has his heart attack, somehow senzu beans don't fix him.

That's not a coincidence, that's toriyama writing a good story.

In my opinion having u16 come in with dozens of senzu beans was a mistake from the beginning.


All those examples are just flawed to their very core.
It's not foreshadowing it's plot armour. If goku and co always carried senzu then their would be no real.tension. so to make story interesting toriyama always made senzu disappear at last moment. Like he did in dbs TOP removing Buu at last moment.

Moreover saiyans love to fight and to keep their pride they didn't ever eat senzu between fights.
Here they brought senzus because of the kids. The grown up goku vegeta gohan can survive some damage but their children and videl can not. They brought senzu for them.

And you are saying as if they should never learn from mistakes. They learnt what happened against cell when gohan lost his arm. Earth was at brink of extinction. So they have learnt not to ever take chances again.

Hence bringing senzu was a brilliant idea . Learning from past mistakes is what character development is all about

You seem to be confusing my use of "forshadowing" and "because the story wouldn't be interesting if they had senzu beans"

My post has 2 parts, the examples of foreshadowing and the "Because of story reasons, they don't have senzu beans at critical times or just enough to heal everyone once".

Did you think I said them not having senzu beans is somehow foreshadowing?

And as I said, if, for example, Bulma gave everyone a capsule with 100 senzu beans stored in them, the story would get very boring, very quickly. It's not that they aren't learning form their mistakes. It's Toriyama conciously using senzu beans sparingly in the story. I know these days he doesn't give a shit, but there was a point where he actually tried, yknow. And he clearly did it right since DBZ became a MASSIVE success.

For example, if Salagir wrote DBZ for u16. Based on what we've seen, he'd have Bra fight weaker oponents spamming instant transmission, use senzu beans the moment she takes damage, teleport away to get more senzu beans if she was driven in a corner (why not, they have thousands of them) and have her drop of her oponents in the middle of space when they anoy her.

The beans were already foreshadowed. Whether you like the foreshadowign is kind of a moot point.

The legendary ssj required great foreshadowing because it was a supremely important plot twist. The senzu beans required a minor amount of foreshadowing because even by dbz standards and db standards, its a fairly common item. u16 has them in droves and a whole planet of them. They don't need much foreshadowign because of how common it is even in u18.

> Toriyama doesn't have them constantly bringign in loads of senzu beans is because it would break all tension in the story,


He does, however seem to use them enough. Goku comes in at the last minute which was cliche by the saiyan saga, and brings in senzu beans. he does this like 4 times. 1 in the saiyan saga, the namek arc, the android fight, the cell fight, and also right before buu. thats 5. not even counting super. Lets not forget the 23rd budokai. all the cast mates had them, so like 6. and they all brought them in seperately, so like 9 times if we count them all as a different occurring time a person had senzus with them, but lets just say 6.

So if the person fighting bra wanted to take them away like cell did, that would increase the tension a bit, but bras so powerful she doesn't need them.

If anything the senzu had proper foreshadowing, and her OP techniques did not. I don't count vegettos "he could do it so can we!" line to be foreshadowing or an ass pull, but it is a quick explanation that seems to make sense given the context of vegetto being a fusion, and bra beign the child of a fusion. Sure it works, but it actually was something that lacked any foreshadowing.

I mean, I don't hear much on her techniques lacking foreshadowin when they really were pulled out without any prior hint or build up she could do any better than goku and co.

So what I'm getting at is that the beans had foreshadowing, other content which is way worse did not. lets focus on the things that were some what sloppily done.

And I think that is middle ground we can stand on. Lets make an issue out of the poor technique set up, which there wasn't any.

Dr Raichi was saying: Oh yes, someone said those senzu beans were forshadowed.

Examples of proper forshadowing:

— Numereus references being made to "the legendary super saiyan" in the namek saga. And Vegeta even repeatedly believing he is one.
— Android 16 ignoring the fight vs the z fighters to "watch some birds", forshadowing his peaceful nature.
— Gohan standing next to Goku when he powers up for Korin, saying "That's it?" While everyone else is freaking out.
— Goku and Vegeta drawing their first match in the tournament against each other. So we all knew "they are gonna fight at some point" even if the tournament was interrupted.

And also, and I cannot stress this enough, the main reason Toriyama doesn't have them constantly bringign in loads of senzu beans is because it would break all tension in the story, remove any sense of real accomplishment, and would, frankly, make all the fights very boring. Having characters repeatedly get beaten by the villain, only for them to eat a senzu bean and having this repeat 4 times in a single fight, would take all the fun out of it.


For this reason:
— When Goku arrives on Namek he conveniently has just enough senzu beans left to heal everyone once. Then has them scram and fights everyone on his own. Despite starting out with a full bag.
— When future Gohan loses his arm, there's only one senzu bean left, so he has to choose between saving Trunks, or regaining his arm. Wouldn't make as much impact if Gohan said, well, good thing we have more senzu's at home? huh.
— When Goku realizes he misunderstood Gohans personality and asks for a senzu bean, Cell conveniently takes that exact moment to steal them.
— When Gohan loses use of his left arm by protecting Vegeta, of course they don't have any senzu beans left.
— When Vegeta and Goku finish their fight early to fight Buu, of course Vegeta takes the last senzu bean.
— In the future of course Korin got killed. So no senzu beans for anyone.)
— When Goku HAS senzu beans when he's fighting Gero, of course he somehow decides to give them to Bulma, so the gang doesn't have them for a while.
— And of course, when Goku has his heart attack, somehow senzu beans don't fix him.

That's not a coincidence, that's toriyama writing a good story.

In my opinion having u16 come in with dozens of senzu beans was a mistake from the beginning.


All those examples are just flawed to their very core.
It's not foreshadowing it's plot armour. If goku and co always carried senzu then their would be no real.tension. so to make story interesting toriyama always made senzu disappear at last moment. Like he did in dbs TOP removing Buu at last moment.

Moreover saiyans love to fight and to keep their pride they didn't ever eat senzu between fights.
Here they brought senzus because of the kids. The grown up goku vegeta gohan can survive some damage but their children and videl can not. They brought senzu for them.

And you are saying as if they should never learn from mistakes. They learnt what happened against cell when gohan lost his arm. Earth was at brink of extinction. So they have learnt not to ever take chances again.

Hence bringing senzu was a brilliant idea . Learning from past mistakes is what character development is all about

Dr Raichi was saying: You know...

Forget using the Dragon Balls.

Buu can just snap his fingers and bring everyone back himself.

Salagir, can Buu undo Vegito's fusion? With magic, I mean, not by absorbing him again? Because I get the impression the guy can do EVERYTHING
Well, Zenbu(basis of his nickname) does mean Omnipotent. so, sure he probably could do anything.