DB Multiverse
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bobo son of christ
9 June
Thiln was saying:
bobo son of christ was saying: Thiln was saying: goten-kun was saying: The Earthlings didn't train with Kaio, they didn't have any powers revealed on Namek, they didn't train in the Room of Spirit and Time. They progressed, but much less than in Dragon Ball. Neither does divine water, just like they didn't use it until the saiyans or androids came in DB.
It's not as if normal training couldn't yield results, though. We saw Vegeta and Piccolo improve between the destruction of Namek and Trunks' arrival, and all they did was train in the wilderness. We admittedly don't know where they rank exactly but it probably isn't unfair to have them at around where base Goku was when he fought Freeza. They have that precedent already seared into their minds.
And what precedent do the Earthlings have seared into their minds? Raditz was already so far ahead of Goku and Piccolo that he is their precedent. There's literally no way for them to have known one would be 15x stronger, and the other 5x stronger, when Raditz was already 3x stronger than the two strongest fighters the world had ever known. Training in DBZ isn't just about pumping weights with never-diminishing returns. Training in DBZ is about much more than that. Breakthroughs are never JUST physical, but are emotional and spiritual. It is the emotional and spiritual aspect that allows Z-Fighters to transcend their physical limits. Here their main access to those spiritual break throughs have been removed by having no access to any of their main-timeline trainers and no inspiration from the Z-Fighters. They do not have zenkai to make Namek Saga Vegeta like gains either.
Nothing overtly outside of Raditz, that's true, but the logical conclusion of that man having access to the Oozaru form should have been a piece of information that Roshi, Krillin and Yamcha would have informed the others about. Krillin and Roshi saw that he has a tail.
And as for training methods, I stand by the precedent set with Vegeta/Piccolo during the intermission between Namek and Mecha Freeza arcs. It's not qualitatively on the level of King Kai or the ROSAT, but improvements should be possible.
It's not as if normal training couldn't yield results, though. We saw Vegeta and Piccolo improve between the destruction of Namek and Trunks' arrival, and all they did was train in the wilderness. We admittedly don't know where they rank exactly but it probably isn't unfair to have them at around where base Goku was when he fought Freeza. They have that precedent already seared into their minds.
And what precedent do the Earthlings have seared into their minds? Raditz was already so far ahead of Goku and Piccolo that he is their precedent. There's literally no way for them to have known one would be 15x stronger, and the other 5x stronger, when Raditz was already 3x stronger than the two strongest fighters the world had ever known. Training in DBZ isn't just about pumping weights with never-diminishing returns. Training in DBZ is about much more than that. Breakthroughs are never JUST physical, but are emotional and spiritual. It is the emotional and spiritual aspect that allows Z-Fighters to transcend their physical limits. Here their main access to those spiritual break throughs have been removed by having no access to any of their main-timeline trainers and no inspiration from the Z-Fighters. They do not have zenkai to make Namek Saga Vegeta like gains either.
Nothing overtly outside of Raditz, that's true, but the logical conclusion of that man having access to the Oozaru form should have been a piece of information that Roshi, Krillin and Yamcha would have informed the others about. Krillin and Roshi saw that he has a tail.
And as for training methods, I stand by the precedent set with Vegeta/Piccolo during the intermission between Namek and Mecha Freeza arcs. It's not qualitatively on the level of King Kai or the ROSAT, but improvements should be possible.
Improvements have been possible and the Z Fighters have performed far better than they did in the main timeline. Nappa(Plus a damn Saibaman) solo'd 4 of the Z fighters and would have easily killed Gohan and Krillin had Goku not shown up. Keep in mind, Nappa solo'd them whilst not even fighting seriously.
As for Raditz going Oozaru, that's a form they've seen once, and wouldn't necessarily know was tied to being a Saiyan. Even if they did, and trained to beat an Oozaru Raditz, they'd still be outclassed by Vegeta. The truth of the matter is the Z Fighters were used power differences in the fractions. I.E. Goku being 20-50% stronger than his peers. They would likely not comprehend power differences in the order of magnitudes.
Picture a fighter tanking Prime Mike Tyson, and then one shotting him. Then him saying he's the weakest from his gym. Would you imagine his peers could knock him out with a breath, or would you imagine they're collectively at a level much higher than what you thought to be the best, but still somewhat comparable. To take IRL logic further, if a 100m sprinter beats the 9.5 second record by 1 second, and says he's the slowest of his friends, you wouldn't imagine his friends are beating it by 5 seconds and 10 seconds respectively. You wouldn't even imagine such a feat was possible.
It took seeing Goku, with divine intervention, attain those heights to show that it was possible.
As for Vegeta and Piccolo, the former essentially Zenkai abused nonstop for a year straight and still didn't get SSj until something his training couldn't provide sparked a fire within him, the latter had fused with the highest level warrior his species had ever known. Both of whom had seen the levels Goku had attained. Arguably Piccolo reached the peak of his potential from having fused with, and therefore gained the knowledge of, Nail.
Again, by your logic, both of them should have surpassed Goku, who spent some time learning Instant Transmission and sitting in a space pod. It shows that true strength, in Dragon Ball, isn't gained by training it's gained by transcending ones own emotional & spiritual limitations.
Regardless, Yamcha has probably killed Raditz, so what's there to be frustrated about. 1 Replie(s)
bobo son of christ
9 June
Thiln was saying:
goten-kun was saying: The Earthlings didn't train with Kaio, they didn't have any powers revealed on Namek, they didn't train in the Room of Spirit and Time. They progressed, but much less than in Dragon Ball. Neither does divine water, just like they didn't use it until the saiyans or androids came in DB.
It's not as if normal training couldn't yield results, though. We saw Vegeta and Piccolo improve between the destruction of Namek and Trunks' arrival, and all they did was train in the wilderness. We admittedly don't know where they rank exactly but it probably isn't unfair to have them at around where base Goku was when he fought Freeza. They have that precedent already seared into their minds.
It's not as if normal training couldn't yield results, though. We saw Vegeta and Piccolo improve between the destruction of Namek and Trunks' arrival, and all they did was train in the wilderness. We admittedly don't know where they rank exactly but it probably isn't unfair to have them at around where base Goku was when he fought Freeza. They have that precedent already seared into their minds.
And what precedent do the Earthlings have seared into their minds? Raditz was already so far ahead of Goku and Piccolo that he is their precedent. There's literally no way for them to have known one would be 15x stronger, and the other 5x stronger, when Raditz was already 3x stronger than the two strongest fighters the world had ever known. Training in DBZ isn't just about pumping weights with never-diminishing returns. Training in DBZ is about much more than that. Breakthroughs are never JUST physical, but are emotional and spiritual. It is the emotional and spiritual aspect that allows Z-Fighters to transcend their physical limits. Here their main access to those spiritual break throughs have been removed by having no access to any of their main-timeline trainers and no inspiration from the Z-Fighters. They do not have zenkai to make Namek Saga Vegeta like gains either.
As for the Divine Water, is it not that case that it actually does nothing? Climbing the tower is what gave Goku his strength. I could be wrong here, however. 2 Replie(s)
bobo son of christ
8 June
In the main timeline, the Heroes were constantly exposed to power-levels well beyond the Saiyans and their own. They had opportunities to learn from both planetary and galactic Deities, and had constant inspiration as members amongst their number ascended well beyond what was previously thought possible. More to that, Goku's time with King Kai gave him lessons that allowed him to increase his power by 200x before he even turned Super Saiyan. It makes sense that in 10 years, they attained the levels they did by the Android Saga. They understood power beyond the body. That was the entire premise of the Android Saga, power beyond the limitations of the body(Z-Fighters) vs power of the perfect body(Androids and Cell).
In this timeline, they could not train with Kami or King Kai, they had not crossed fighters with powers like Zarbon and Dodoria, let alone the Ginyu Force, Frieza, and Future Trunks. We are forgetting that, with the training methods available to them now they went from power levels in 60-150 range to, at best, the 200-350 range. That was with twice the time training. You could actually make the argument that the Z-Fighters are barely even at main-timeline Raditz level of 1500.
This guy has it absolutely right. The Humans are doing really well considering. I have been optimistic with their power-levels in the past. These low-ball numbers are far more likely.
Saigo no Son page 72
In this timeline, they could not train with Kami or King Kai, they had not crossed fighters with powers like Zarbon and Dodoria, let alone the Ginyu Force, Frieza, and Future Trunks. We are forgetting that, with the training methods available to them now they went from power levels in 60-150 range to, at best, the 200-350 range. That was with twice the time training. You could actually make the argument that the Z-Fighters are barely even at main-timeline Raditz level of 1500.
Philsdesign was saying:
Yes was saying: As much as I like the premise of this story, the power-scaling is making little to no sense here. If it was only like a 2 year gap between Raditz showing up and the Sayians attacking but 10 years? I could see Vegeta being an issue but not the others after 2 years but 10? Even without King Kai's training this should of not been a problem for the Humans.
The Sayians could not have improved much as they are still servants to 1st form Frieza. The Earthlings had 10 years, with King Kai's training and additional training for the androids, Tien managed to pin down Semi-Perfect Cell during that time... You are telling me he is at best slightly above Nappa? Did the Humans train for like 2 years and just stop?
Considering how this is turning out either Gohan is switching sides or Goku is brought back for a day...
Goku did "regular" training for 5 years after the fight with Piccolo a d barely got stronger. Same can be said for the 3 years leading up to the androids (Vegeta and Piccolo basically caught up to him)
They might have 10 years of training, but that is without Kami, King Kai, gravity, RoSaT or transformations. On top of that the saiyans also continued their version of training (going from planet to planet and fighting non-stop, which Frieza stated back on Namek was why Vegeta kept getting stronger)
Simply put, the Saiyans have an extra 9 years of training and the humans didn't have access to any special training so the power difference being roughly the same despite the extra 9 years makes perfect sense.
And there is nothing to suggest the humans in the original ever got close to even Saiyan Saga Vegeta, the last canon measurement was Krillen at 10.000 and after that all the humans accomplished was a hole in Yamcha's chest, Tien delaying Cell without inflicting any damage and Krillen seducing #18. Any other showing, powerlevel and so on is all non-canon
The Sayians could not have improved much as they are still servants to 1st form Frieza. The Earthlings had 10 years, with King Kai's training and additional training for the androids, Tien managed to pin down Semi-Perfect Cell during that time... You are telling me he is at best slightly above Nappa? Did the Humans train for like 2 years and just stop?
Considering how this is turning out either Gohan is switching sides or Goku is brought back for a day...
Goku did "regular" training for 5 years after the fight with Piccolo a d barely got stronger. Same can be said for the 3 years leading up to the androids (Vegeta and Piccolo basically caught up to him)
They might have 10 years of training, but that is without Kami, King Kai, gravity, RoSaT or transformations. On top of that the saiyans also continued their version of training (going from planet to planet and fighting non-stop, which Frieza stated back on Namek was why Vegeta kept getting stronger)
Simply put, the Saiyans have an extra 9 years of training and the humans didn't have access to any special training so the power difference being roughly the same despite the extra 9 years makes perfect sense.
And there is nothing to suggest the humans in the original ever got close to even Saiyan Saga Vegeta, the last canon measurement was Krillen at 10.000 and after that all the humans accomplished was a hole in Yamcha's chest, Tien delaying Cell without inflicting any damage and Krillen seducing #18. Any other showing, powerlevel and so on is all non-canon
This guy has it absolutely right. The Humans are doing really well considering. I have been optimistic with their power-levels in the past. These low-ball numbers are far more likely.
bobo son of christ
22 May
Raditz... No...
Not like this.
That's Raditz. 1 Replie(s)
Saigo no Son page 65
Not like this.
King Kindred was saying:
Well, it looks like Raditz is dead. I know Vegeta can't sense ki yet, but he wouldn't have that look if he wasn't certain it was strong enough to kill Raditz.
That's Raditz. 1 Replie(s)
bobo son of christ
12 May
I don't really understand the logic that every Earthling would be at the same level they were at in the main timeline.
What bench-marks for strength do they have? If the two strongest people you'd ever known were killed by a guy some two, to three times stronger than them, they'd be thinking along those metrics. Their ambitions would not to be to attain increases in power in terms of ten thousand, to twenty thousand times increases(If not more if you go by the main time-line powerscale). Such a feat would seem impossible to them.
More over, even if that was their ambition, how would they even know how? It was Goku's training with King Kai and his training under immense gravitational loads, that got him to 20'000(Not counting Kaioken) and the brutal zenkai boost that got him even further. It was Gohan and Krillin's potential being unlocked, their witnessing of Goku's increases in strength, and no doubt knowledge of training from Piccolo's new aspect in Nail.
Never mind that none of this has happened, or that none of them even know how strong Vegeta truly was at the time of Goku and Piccolo's death, let alone how strong Frieza is/could be.
The logic many commenters here are applying would conclude that Goku, who had been training for 18 years by the arrival of Raditz, should have had a power in the tens of millions. He did not. He had a power less than a thousand.
I would argue most of them are still below ten thousand.
We would also need to apply the logic of power increase to the Saiyans too. After all, Gohan has gone from pip-squeak levels to being brave enough to talk back to Vegeta. He must have seen massive increases in power. Considering Vegeta went from 6'200(Or more, if you want to be harsher with your sources) to 18'000 in twice the time, Gohan -- the half-breed son of a low class warrior -- getting anywhere close to even Raditz would be considered immensely impressive. Here he seems to be beyond his uncle. If Gohan was capable of this kind of growth, why not the other three? We know Vegeta trained as a child, and we know that in the show Vegeta prides himself on being the only one of Frieza's elite who actually fights tough battles. We also know, even with his power, he would never step in to rescue a subordinate on the cusp of death.
I think the Z-Fighters and the Saiyans would be pretty damn even, with the exception of going up against Vegeta. I'd roughly guess the Power levels are as follows,
Chiaotzu - 1,800
Krillin - 2,900
Raditz - 3,200(Generous here, but falling behind Gohan would logically have motivated him somewhat, he's also still harsh to Gohan and must fancy his power somewhat
Yamcha - 4,000(He's confident enough to turn his back on Raditz)
Nappa - 6,000(Likely not fighting seriously, probably closer to 9,000 going all out)
Tien - 5,500
Gohan - 5,000(Probably on Vegeta's level with a rage boost) 3 Replie(s)
Saigo no Son page 60
What bench-marks for strength do they have? If the two strongest people you'd ever known were killed by a guy some two, to three times stronger than them, they'd be thinking along those metrics. Their ambitions would not to be to attain increases in power in terms of ten thousand, to twenty thousand times increases(If not more if you go by the main time-line powerscale). Such a feat would seem impossible to them.
More over, even if that was their ambition, how would they even know how? It was Goku's training with King Kai and his training under immense gravitational loads, that got him to 20'000(Not counting Kaioken) and the brutal zenkai boost that got him even further. It was Gohan and Krillin's potential being unlocked, their witnessing of Goku's increases in strength, and no doubt knowledge of training from Piccolo's new aspect in Nail.
Never mind that none of this has happened, or that none of them even know how strong Vegeta truly was at the time of Goku and Piccolo's death, let alone how strong Frieza is/could be.
The logic many commenters here are applying would conclude that Goku, who had been training for 18 years by the arrival of Raditz, should have had a power in the tens of millions. He did not. He had a power less than a thousand.
I would argue most of them are still below ten thousand.
We would also need to apply the logic of power increase to the Saiyans too. After all, Gohan has gone from pip-squeak levels to being brave enough to talk back to Vegeta. He must have seen massive increases in power. Considering Vegeta went from 6'200(Or more, if you want to be harsher with your sources) to 18'000 in twice the time, Gohan -- the half-breed son of a low class warrior -- getting anywhere close to even Raditz would be considered immensely impressive. Here he seems to be beyond his uncle. If Gohan was capable of this kind of growth, why not the other three? We know Vegeta trained as a child, and we know that in the show Vegeta prides himself on being the only one of Frieza's elite who actually fights tough battles. We also know, even with his power, he would never step in to rescue a subordinate on the cusp of death.
I think the Z-Fighters and the Saiyans would be pretty damn even, with the exception of going up against Vegeta. I'd roughly guess the Power levels are as follows,
Chiaotzu - 1,800
Krillin - 2,900
Raditz - 3,200(Generous here, but falling behind Gohan would logically have motivated him somewhat, he's also still harsh to Gohan and must fancy his power somewhat
Yamcha - 4,000(He's confident enough to turn his back on Raditz)
Nappa - 6,000(Likely not fighting seriously, probably closer to 9,000 going all out)
Tien - 5,500
Gohan - 5,000(Probably on Vegeta's level with a rage boost) 3 Replie(s)
bobo son of christ
5 April
Here's hoping Raditz doesn't get smoked immediately.
Saigo no Son page 44
bobo son of christ
28 February
Love this, but despise Gohan's drip. It demonstrates a lack of courage! Give him the skin-tight suit! The campy WWF speedos! The over-the-top shoulder pads!
Saigo no Son page 29
bobo son of christ
3 October
Raditz with yellow Ki. Gohan gone.
DBMultiverse Special OAV - Broly Final War page 28
bobo son of christ
18 September
If Gast had that dog in him Piccolo would have died immediately. XXI knows Gast feels a need to redeem evil. Hence he sends pure evil at him. You guys don’t respect Bono’s takes.
DB Multiverse page 2393
bobo son of christ
18 September
Gast can’t just kill. He has to redeem evil.
DB Multiverse page 2393
bobo son of christ
8 August 2024
Wish we had gotten more opportunities to see this guy doing evil.
321Y page 311
bobo son of christ
1 August 2024
Sayazur was saying:
bobo son of christ was saying: I hate to be critical, but there is no use sketching out characters if it just makes the rest of the art jarring to behold.
Also all these old link ups and everyone is just happy to see eachother? Weren’t almost all of them killed by the Z fighters anyway?
Not to mention how Buu is there. Does he even have a soul?
For the drawings, unfortunately, I am not a professional and I offer stories for free, that's actually the goal of DBM ^^
As for the links between the heroes and the villains, the villains KNOW that they have every interest in following the heroes. They are more powerful and are forced to make a truce.
Regarding Buu, of course he has a soul! Why wouldn't
he? It's literally the soul of Kid Buu that is behind the fat Buu on the left XD
Also all these old link ups and everyone is just happy to see eachother? Weren’t almost all of them killed by the Z fighters anyway?
Not to mention how Buu is there. Does he even have a soul?
For the drawings, unfortunately, I am not a professional and I offer stories for free, that's actually the goal of DBM ^^
As for the links between the heroes and the villains, the villains KNOW that they have every interest in following the heroes. They are more powerful and are forced to make a truce.
Regarding Buu, of course he has a soul! Why wouldn't
he? It's literally the soul of Kid Buu that is behind the fat Buu on the left XD
Fair enough! Well I can’t wait to see your art style grow!
As for Buu, I hadn’t thought about that.
bobo son of christ
1 August 2024
I hate to be critical, but there is no use sketching out characters if it just makes the rest of the art jarring to behold.
Also all these old link ups and everyone is just happy to see eachother? Weren’t almost all of them killed by the Z fighters anyway?
Not to mention how Buu is there. Does he even have a soul? 1 Replie(s)
DBMultiverse Special OAV - Broly Final War page 10
Also all these old link ups and everyone is just happy to see eachother? Weren’t almost all of them killed by the Z fighters anyway?
Not to mention how Buu is there. Does he even have a soul? 1 Replie(s)
bobo son of christ
25 July 2024
Why is Bojack just posted up chilling at full power?
1 Replie(s)
DBMultiverse Special OAV - Broly Final War page 8
bobo son of christ
25 July 2024
No Raditz, of course
DBMultiverse Special OAV - Broly Final War page 8
bobo son of christ
6 July 2024
Ah man. We’ll never get to see Raditz fight as he is. Only fused or in Oozaru.
1 Replie(s)
DB Multiverse page 2361
bobo son of christ
4 July 2024
Could be that Raditz potential is where Gohan got his from. Keep in mind Raditz gained enough from training with Goku to survive Namek alongside men who kill their own allies for weakness, never mind the countless heavy hitters that were on Namek.
Unless this is a joke. If it is I will stop reading, lol.
DB Multiverse page 2360
Unless this is a joke. If it is I will stop reading, lol.
bobo son of christ
20 June 2024
Now you wanna chat to Tambo?
NO. THE TAMBO YOU KNEW IS GONE!
321Y page 290
NO. THE TAMBO YOU KNEW IS GONE!
bobo son of christ
23 May 2024
Wow, it's a real headache to make an account on this site for me, somehow.
Either way, I've been reading for years now, but finally decided to leave a comment having seen the response to this chapter. I love it! Dragon Ball has always been about fun and heroism. Seeing the heroism focused on is a fantastic change of tack. The idea that Gohan has lost hope is believable, and the idea that it is Trunks and Bulma who give him the hope to keep fighting on makes his death even more impactful. I always loved the future timeline for its darker atmosphere.
Keep it up guys, great content.
DB Multiverse page 2342
Either way, I've been reading for years now, but finally decided to leave a comment having seen the response to this chapter. I love it! Dragon Ball has always been about fun and heroism. Seeing the heroism focused on is a fantastic change of tack. The idea that Gohan has lost hope is believable, and the idea that it is Trunks and Bulma who give him the hope to keep fighting on makes his death even more impactful. I always loved the future timeline for its darker atmosphere.
Keep it up guys, great content.
Language
As for Raditz going Oozaru, that's a form they've seen once, and wouldn't necessarily know was tied to being a Saiyan. Even if they did, and trained to beat an Oozaru Raditz, they'd still be outclassed by Vegeta. The truth of the matter is the Z Fighters were used power differences in the fractions. I.E. Goku being 20-50% stronger than his peers. They would likely not comprehend power differences in the order of magnitudes.
Picture a fighter tanking Prime Mike Tyson, and then one shotting him. Then him saying he's the weakest from his gym. Would you imagine his peers could knock him out with a breath, or would you imagine they're collectively at a level much higher than what you thought to be the best, but still somewhat comparable. To take IRL logic further, if a 100m sprinter beats the 9.5 second record by 1 second, and says he's the slowest of his friends, you wouldn't imagine his friends are beating it by 5 seconds and 10 seconds respectively. You wouldn't even imagine such a feat was possible.
It took seeing Goku, with divine intervention, attain those heights to show that it was possible.
As for Vegeta and Piccolo, the former essentially Zenkai abused nonstop for a year straight and still didn't get SSj until something his training couldn't provide sparked a fire within him, the latter had fused with the highest level warrior his species had ever known. Both of whom had seen the levels Goku had attained. Arguably Piccolo reached the peak of his potential from having fused with, and therefore gained the knowledge of, Nail.
Again, by your logic, both of them should have surpassed Goku, who spent some time learning Instant Transmission and sitting in a space pod. It shows that true strength, in Dragon Ball, isn't gained by training it's gained by transcending ones own emotional & spiritual limitations.
Regardless, Yamcha has probably killed Raditz, so what's there to be frustrated about.
Ironically without the sort of tactical collaboration Salagir uses here for the humans. A Kienzan that's telekinetically shifted in its trajectory to sever one of Nappa's limbs? Much of the complications from that fight stemmed from the lack of practical usage of techniques, really.
Twice actually. Yamcha got a first hand look at what an Oozaru was like during the Pilaf arc and even deduced how to reverse the transformation by cutting off the tail. It wouldn't take much to put two and two together regarding the man claiming to be Goku's brother who just happens to have a tail like Goku used to. And weaker than Vegeta or not, a precedent is a precedent. It's better than nothing at all.
I don't recall it being mentioned that Vegeta exploited zenkais in the intermission period to train. But the point isn't them achieving a pinnacle, rather it's just to demonstrate that notable gains are still possible even with old methods. I didn't expect them to surpass the contemporary Goku of Yardrat, but the one that came before without Super Saiyan form? Not unreasonable for them or, hopefully, the humans given the specific circumstances they have.
I don't feel you're addressing my central points of,
A) The Z-Fighters in this timeline have no precedent of what can be achieved through training beyond Raditz, who was 3-5x stronger than Goku and Piccolo.
B) The Z-Fighters in this timeline have had no divine/spirit based training or power ups like in the main timeline
C) The Z-Fighters in this timeline have been using the same training methods that, over the course of their lifetimes(20 or so years of near-nonstop training), got them to <300 power level
D) The Z-Fighters in this timeline don't have their most innovative members, like Piccolo, who gained the most power in his 1 year of training for the Saiyans, and helped Gohan attain the biggest % increase in power of all the z-fighters
You could more easily make the case that the Z-Fighters in this timeline should be doing WORSE than they're currently doing, not better. I like how they're doing. We will see the surest sign of their improvements in the next couple of pages when Chaotzu blows up. It seems reasonable to me that, with the aid of Kami, the z-fighters got 10 years, or more, worth of training in one.