I would be surprised if Gast didn't turn this into some sort of learning experience for her, at least a little bit. But he got on record earlier saying "I must have my wish", so I seriously doubt that he can afford to simply give up.

Funny thing about Bra is that for quite some time, I assumed Bra was mainly used as a chew toy, because of the sheer number of times she got mind dominated and/or brutally beat down. I mean, we got
— controlled by Ginyu.
— controlled by Babidi.
— laid out by Vegetto when she was controlled by Ginyu.
— pummeled by Cold. Granted, she immediately undoes this one.
And a couple of other stuff. But man, the pictures of the last two points were for a long time my go-to examples on how much more brutal this comic was than Dragonball. We got a couple more with other characters since then, though.



And I would say that this happens a lot in Dragonball in general, which is why we have so many former badguys in the hero roster to begin with.

No one implied a romantic kiss, as far as I can see. 1 Réponse(s)

From a story perspective, I think this is something Bra should do. Vegetto has less connection to them than her, and I also second the comment saying that it's nicer for her to work like this instead of going the flashy defeat the final boss route.

Also I want to say that maybe Vegetto is counting on support during his attack. He did check whether everyone was chipping in before starting his attack after all. And Bra was even shown listening in on him saying so in comic #2052. So maybe this isn't supposed to be a one-man show, but more "all hands on deck". Which I would prefer tbh. And from that perspective it also makes sense to show this after Vegetto starts his attack - she's going along with his attack.

And she even has firsthand experience with that very shield, so didn't have to worry about hitting the people inside.

Is anything stopping Buu from just teleporting inside?

Say, is there a way to support the comic? I guess that's problematic due to using an existing IP?

Maybe he ate him? ;)

Zen Buu might be the one contestant with the least stakes in the tournament. Does he really need the wish for anything? So, he might rage, he might accept, or he might have allowed it to happen.

My money is on "very unhappy" though. Regardless, the fight will continue outside the ring in some form. And for this particular matchup that's probably better - more opportunities for deception and intrigue there.

Maybe this is a test, to see which Cell blocked it with the least effort? The art style makes it look like two Cells shook with impact, one didn't. This may or may not be intentional. 1 Réponse(s)

I remember, back in the first chapter when they kept on saying "nothing can go wrong", thinking: "I'm vaguely curious about their security planning. Surely they say that because they have some emergency plans in place?"

I remember, back when Babidi lost and demonstrated that he doesn't care about the rules (by trying to cheat), thinking "they can't be so stupid as to think he's just going to accept his loss?"

...well, now I'm thinking "after they just got a demonstration what will happen if someone powerful and evil/motivated loses, surely they're going to make plans now, at least? For when Zen Buu or Gast or Xii loses? Right? Right?"

I think this page illustrates the utter irresponsibility of all involved quite nicely.

I think XII is going to win against Buu, but I really, really hope he wouldn't. I really like Buu's antics.

Regarding Gast vs Bra, I don't know. Obviously Bra's arc isn't over, so either she has to win or we would have to get most of the arc during her battle with Gast. Either way, I doubt this is going to be over quickly. I would expect Gast to go into teacher mode here.

Edit: Though also keep in mind that there will be more stuff happening outside of the tournament battles. There are a few prophecies still unaccounted for. And no way are most of the characters just going to accept a loss. On that note, I hope the good charas and the organizers wisened up a bit and prepare a bit better for the inevitable sore loser. I saw Babidi's stunt coming a mile away and was kinda surprised none of the characters did. 1 Réponse(s)

I am quite sure it's not about what Cell Jr did, but whether or not they would follow Cell's commands. Which they seemingly did and do. So he's wary of them as much as he's wary of Cell.

That said, I also feel he is being very judgmental in this whole affair. It's a problem I often see with hero characters.




Can you give an example from DB or DBM where it's stated that Babidi being away or distracted has an influence on how the Majin behaves?

If I try to stay within the analogy, I would say that

1.) the first problem is that she got saddled with a sports car in the first place, which probably isn't the right car for learning how to drive. She also couldn't use any other car at any time.

2.) She seemingly was taught how to drive by dumping her into traffic headfirst without proper preparation. Also, she was underage and put behind the wheel regardless, again and again. IIRC there was a comic where she was teleported on a planet with Vegitto, where he started dumping information on her on how to handle the situation while the enemy surrendered just seeing him. She understandably was like "I didn't get anything". If that's how Vegetto teaches, it's no wonder the girl has no clue how to do it.
There were other people in her life who may have helped better with this - but I don't remember a single time where we were shown how anyone would teach Bra properly. She still doesn't seem to know how, but I don't think we know enough about her teaching background to gauge how much was bad teaching and how much was stupid student. Some of both, I would guess.

3.) She had her first big crash because of 2. - put behind the wheel despite being underage, and despite everyone involved knowing she's a reckless driver. Then she was put in an environment where other people were willfully crashing their cars into hers, nearly killing her in the process. There was also insufficient oversight. It was in this environment that she started driving absolutely kamikaze, and was put the blame on afterwards.

4.) She had her last big crash because someone put her car on remote control and started crashing her into stuff. If she had been a better driver, she may have been able to wrest the controls of the car, and indeed she did after getting an idea how to. Nonetheless, only one other driver managed to do this, so whether or not being better prepared would have helped her any is pure conjecture.

The problem with this kind of analogy is that it can be written any number of ways, and none is an ideal fit. The above is how I would write it. I have no doubt this could be written decidedly different as well, like how you did it.

I am more or less on board with this. Not her fault for what she did while under control, but she would have been able to withstand this - or stop this - were it not for her faults.
1 Réponse(s)

I think the first part would be very dependent on if they got that there was mind control involved. And that was kinda obvious in my opinion. If they know that, and without knowing the exact rules of the control, they could basically assume everything. From "there was outside control involved so obviously she isn't responsible" to "this can be beaten so why didn't she do it sooner". All based on their own headcanon and what information they were presented.

Regarding the taunt part: oh, yes. This would be such an easy jab. ...to be honest, this looks like a job for our main troll Zen Buu, but it seems he already had his fun. 1 Réponse(s)

I think I made it clear enough that was from Gohan's perspective, all based on things he said himself. "your avatars" meaning he assumes Cell controls these. Repeatedly saying to Bra she's not responsible showing that he assumes she wasn't in control.

So basically no, I didn't make anything up. Gohan does IMO.

Well, he seems to assume the tinies are still under Cell's control ("your avatars"), who was responsible for his actions according to Gohan. And he also assumes that bra wasn't. So the tinies were complicit in murdering his loved ones, while Bra was actually being avictim.

So, makes sense under these assumptions. But I also think he's being quite judgmental on who is responsible and who isn't. Like, does he really know how much the tinies and Cell are connected? 1 Réponse(s)

I really love this and the last couple of pages. Though it's sad that the comments section so often goes up in flames about it, I think there's a lot of potential in seeing how the different people react to the several majinized people. For example, I was surprised about how Naurb seemed to be the only person who wasn't behaving like a total dick while majinized. Still followed orders just as much, but in my opinion being the only guy who wasn't wearing permanent rape-face during that time.

It would be nice if we could talk about stuff like that without anyone including a barb (or a comment about its anticipation) towards Bra. There's so many other things hinted at during the last few pages that I'd consider much more interesting to talk about.

Was there anywhere written that Broly destroyed his home universe? I just re-read his introduction, and #35 said they found him "frozen in the void of space". Was there any other place where they were more explicit than this?

Does he look hurt?

Regarding Broly character depth: I am pretty sure Broly in DBM is supposed to be more force of nature than character. Like in a disaster movie, characters fighting against circumstances instead of people. Only in this case the disaster happens to be humanoid-shaped.

Maybe this really is just Gotenks speaking. But I hope that the plan just is to make Broly angry. That way the multiple personality aspects could work together, like channeling Gotenks for annoyance, with Piccolo in the background for the planning and so on. I think I'd enjoy that.

...damn, now I can't get the idea out of my head how it would have been if they had used sentient candy Broly as the U20 contestant instead of "normal" Broly. Would have undermined the seriousness of his later fights, but damn, it would have been so beautifully ridiculous. ^_^

I have seen none of that attempted in the actual comic. Where did the characters try all that?

Remember how DBM explicitly departs from the comics in regards to Broly? DB Broly wasn't invincible, for starters. So DB examples say jack squat about DBM Broly.


Also, regarding using Broly basically as a boring, invincible villain - I think the point of including something like this isn't to give an interesting villain. The point IMO is to force the characters to get creative. Here is one guy they can absolutely not beat with their usual go-to methods. Invent something or die. And this universe is where they fail doing that. 2 Réponse(s)

Where are you getting this from? So far no one is facing consequences except Babidi, whose transgressions result in the exclusion of the whole group, as by the rules. Unless you refer to being hit or threatened as "consequences" - but by that metric Bra is so far the most punished Majin. So what do you even mean?

Regarding Gast not defending Nappa or Dabura: well, he didn't defend Bra on the first punch either. Nor the second. In fact, he only intervened after Vegitto kept on doing this AND made it very, very clear he intended to do some serious hurt, possibly kill her.

That seems like a good point to me. So from Vegetto's POV first he gets beaten by a magic finger-snap (being "cheated" out of all the fights he was looking forward to), then his daughter claims she got overpowered by a roach like Babidi, then Gast puts him on his knees out of thin air and basically takes away his opportunity to act responsibly (in his mind), all in short order, and all without a fight. Humiliation conga, anyone?

I also second that the key here is that none of this was an actual fight. He was happy about strong opponents, includind Buu, but none of this seems to classify as a fight. snap you lose.

The problem with that matchup would be that the people reading here are probably more invested with the original universe's good guys, most likely Goku, Vegeta and kinda Uub. If these all go out before the semifinals, there's probably going to be a problem with people not being invested enough. Gast and XXI especially didn't have much opportunity to get the audience to like them. So, from a storyteller's perspective, these two are probably more like end bosses to overcome.

But seriously, Goku wouldn't have survived many matchups in Z just going by the initial power levels . So we need a few surprises and more mc good guys in that lineup. 1 Réponse(s)

Regarding the overall point of your post, yeah, a lot of stuff changed, and I am curious about the fallout and consequences of this. I think it doesn't make sense to have the leftover characters argue the Bra situation to a conclusion, as they were all spectators, and the actually wronged parties may want to have a word in this. Not to mention that undoing the damage IMO seems to be the more pressing matter.

And really, the base setup of the whole tournament was "we have several sets of dragonballs to clear up any inconveniences". Did anyone seriously believe that we wouldn't somehow end up with everyone revived, the damage repaired and going on with the tournament? Same it happened in the past. Wasn't that always done in DBZ as well?


And yeah, the comic with Phipsil standing behind Gohan was my absolutely favorite part of DBM.

If the spectators had any brains, they would be insisting to pack it and go home after this. I mean, this tournament is absolutely hilariously insecure. And if the mind control and rampaging Bra was bad, I would like to see how the organizers would want to protect the spectators against something like THIS.

Wouldn't a true voice of reason insist on breaking it up right now? Can we really call anyone responsible who doesn't try to put a stop on this?

That would of course make some guys flip out, and most of the higher powers here have motivation to not do that since it means no wishes. But really, guys - what is your concept on how this is supposed to play out? What are you going to do if one of these super-dudes loses the match? I'm beginning to think that Bra was pretty harmless compared to what's on the horizon.

...I still only see a bunch of characters saying what is right from their point of view, not an author pushing his opinion (maybe except Bra's comment on low opinions, that does sound like a diss). Same as last page. Is anything they are saying out of character for them? Doesn't necessarily mean they are right.

I'm actually surprised Son "I-spare-every-unrepentant-villain" Goku didn't jump to her defense already. 1 Réponse(s)

I think it's pretty awesome how everyone acts based on their own assumptions and their own incomplete picture. Gast only seeing "hey, magic mind control" without knowledge about the mechanics. Vegetto immediately assuming Bra willingly sold the soul, Gotenks immediately going by the opposite. Which, if I got this right, neither has any way of knowing...?

Which is probably how people would behave in such a high pressure situation.

But I think Goten got some stuff right. Why should Vegetto be judge? He is not one of the people who were wronged. Maybe those who were should get some say in this? Also, yeah, if getting majinized was unforgivable in and of itself, that would count for Vegeta and Vegetto too.

And the main cast being the forgivable type isn't such a big surprise too, right? I mean, they're largely comprised of people who
a) are the forgivable type themselves,
b) committed atrocities themselves and were forgiven, thus not really in a position to judge or
c) raised by the people of a and b.
Not to mention mostly friends and family.

Know what - I would love to hear Vegeta's opinion on the matter.

I think your tone was (and is) okay. I didn't feel accused of anything.

I don't believe that most users mean punishment as in consequence, given that I have many times seen people asking for a beating or killing. But again, this is guessing what other people may think. I'll try to keep in mind that this is what you may think when saying "punishment".

I too am interested in seeing some consequences. And we're now at a point where these consequences can finally happen, or at least where we can see the groundwork being laid. But the only way I can see getting these consequences is more screentime with Bra. Which most likely requires her being alive.

I am doing pure speculation, of course. I am just coming from somewhere where the author folded because he was getting too much crap for his work, so that might be coloring my reaction a bit. I can't mind read.

The rules actually forbid musing about what other people might be thinking, so it's probably better to drop that. But the comments section looks like a mass brawl almost all the time, and I was simply wondering: what's the point of that?

Back on topic, I guess I still don't get why people are calling for punishment, especially death. Death is cheap in DB, and punishment generally is something dealt out by others. Even if I were to see Bra as guilty, I would not consider a beating or even killing the appropriate way. Both are very temporary. So you do something that hurts physically for a moment and then it's fine? Sounds a lot more of a cop out to me than, say, making her live and work for it.

On that note, has anyone ever been formally punished in DBZ for these kinds of transgressions? Piccolo sacrificed his life after his heel-face-turn, Vegeta did the same after his majin issue. That's not anyone punishing them, that's them making up for what they did, since they did this themselves without being prompted. After Namek, Vegeta was simply "there", but I don't remember anyone punishing him for what he did. 1 Réponse(s)

I do not know what other people's reasoning is, and so I have trouble speaking for "my camp". For me, the main problem is a subgroup of people pushing for something I consider very detrimental to the story and the comic. And if other people don't make clear that they would not be okay with this proposition, the author might end up with the impression that this is what the fans generally want.

Furthermore, I believe the constant vitriol is endangering the comic. Why the comments section is still open is a mystery to me. I believe this matter should be dropped. The tone comes from all kinds of sides, of course.

Oh, and I don't understand why people demand something that is most likely not happening. Agree to accept that, wait and see or leave? I don't understand the point of the complaints, except to piss other people and maybe the author off. It's not as if there is a whole lot of new insights coming forward.



...that would make a lot of people very unsympathetic and in my opinion OOC. They wouldn't even have the benefit of the mind control excuse.

And while we are talking about demands that would make "us" stop complaining: if the camp 2 you are mentioning would drop the matter altogether, I bet that would make the assumed "camp 1" stop complaining as well after a couple pages. But I guess none of the camps should be like "I'm going to complain until I get my way". 2 Réponse(s)

... I don't think the word "weak" actually refers to not being powerful strength-wise. I elaborated on this 2 pages ago, and for the sake of not quoting my own post, the gist is: the word is being used in the context "You're weak! You're corrupt! You hurt your friends!" as seen on the page. So this clearly is meaning "weak" in the context of "being corrupt" and "hurting her friends", which are about her character and what she did, not about how strong she was while doing it. The later "passive" goes into the same direction - how she behaves, not how strong she is.

So I think it is pretty safe to say that it was not insulting her strength that bothered her, but her behaviour, especially how she hurt people. It pretty much says so verbatim.

This seems to clash with her not reacting at all when she actually did the hurting. So, why did it not bother her enough to do the hurting, but it clearly did when she was reminded later? Both of this happened - if someone's explanation ignores one or the other, it doesn't make sense. You can't say she wasn't bothered by doing it when it was actually one of the first things on her mind when she was shaken. I also find it hard to believe that she did bother but showed no sign at all.

I think if someone's explanation doesn't address both these points, instead just picking out one while ignoring the other, then it doesn't make sense. You can come to completely opposite conclusions doing that ("she wasn't bothered!", pointing to the massacre versus "No, she clearly was!" pointing to her reaction afterwards).

So I believe the only way to address both points is that there was a difference. Why else would she react to hurting her friends later, but not immediately? Something changed.

I would be interested in seeing how people consolidate these facts. Theories I can imagine:

1.) She was bothered from the beginning, she just didn't show. There is, in my opinion, nothing to either prove or disprove this. We weren't shown what she was actually thinking. She was, however, able to emote later while still under mind control, so I consider this a bit weird - like, the mind control keeps you from reacting until a certain threshold is reached, but then you're free to go? On the other hand, most of the other guys weren't showing anything either, even while doing something clearly contrary to their character. Like Freeza bowing to Babidi.

2.) She wasn't actively resisting because she thought she couldn't. This would explain why it would make a difference to call her passive - it reminds her that, no, this isn't just the latest shit happening to you which you are powerless against. Like, you can do something against this, but you aren't. You're only powerless because you choose to do nothing, or in other words, you're "passive", you're "letting it happen". This makes the most sense in my opinion, because it fits the wordings. Why being called passive was so impactful, why she said "I let it happen", why she keeps saying "it's my fault" (not "I did it") and so on.

Where do the dead peoples' souls go when they die? We do know DB had an afterlife, but does this empty universe have one? Or can dead souls cross universe boundaries?

...is killing her even an appropriate punishment? I mean, if she is going to be resurrected anyway. Or is she suggesting to stay dead? I would consider that a cop out as well.

I may be a little different in that regard, but when someone does something to me, I do not want them punished. It will not make whatever they did undone. I want them to make up for what they did, undo it as best as they can, or make up for it as good as they can.

If someone breaks my arm and it heal crooked, I do not want them in prison, I would want them to
a) take steps so it doesn't happen again and
b) make up for the consequences. So make up for the treatment, every kind of help I would now need to manipulate stuff, and finally, make up for the pain either by sparing me other pain or giving me joy. Something like that. Having them in prison would do jack shit about my arm.

I do not actually think Bra is that responsible for what happened, but that is kinda irrelevant. She seems to feel responsible, and wants to make up for it. So, if I were one of the guys killed by her, I would want her to
1.) make sure I get my life back,
2.) do something to make up for the pain she caused and
3.) do something about how to keep this kind of thing from happening again.

I would NOT want her dead, because that doesn't help me any. Except maybe for the "happening again" stuff. Except not even that, since an evil guy could just raise her and then immediately control her again. 2 Réponse(s)

Regarding Bra having to pay - well. In her own words she feels responsible. She seems to try to dodge the physical approach Vegetto tried to pull, whether by reflex or by belief we can't yet tell. Why don't we wait and see what she, and others, feel is the appropriate way to own up. Me, I am most interested in how Bra intends to go on about this, which will say a lot more about her character than whatever punishment the others would be trying to force.

And regarding Vegetto, this must be close to the worst case scenario he had in mind, a true nightmare. All self control teachings didn't help, and as it seems, his own universe is only one mind manipulator away from being annihilated once he is gone. And it was presented in the most graphic, emotion inducing way possible, thanks to Troll Buu. For a character with anger management issues, in my opinion, it's no wonder he is lashing out. Probably looks to him like Bra is now even resisting punishment for what she did, so kinda dodging responsibility?

I've been rereading the last chapters a couple of times and I don't see why many people claim Bra broke out of Majin because of being called weak and passive and not because of murdering her friends. Yes, the moments when she gets shaken is when she is called that, not actually when doing the murdering. But IMO both times make it pretty clear to what that was referring. It's written out "You're weak! You hurt your friends!", so that's in no way referring to weakness power-wise, but character-wise, AND the first thought upon being called weak was hurting her friends, so how the hell is anyone pretending that the thought of murdering the guys didn't enter into the process of breaking out of Majin?

As with the passive - keywords were "slave", traumatized", "weak". "slave" being obviously the seal, "traumatized" in my opinion her problems with Vegetto, "weak" see other page. So this seems to boil down to "all your current problems are because you let them happen".

So this is about her being "weak"-MINDED and too "passive" to take a stand at shit happening.

So from that I gather that
a) she couldn't have broken out earlier because she was indeed too "weak" and "passive" and just "let it happen".
b) She realized that she has to take a stand or shit will continue to pile up. That is what allowed her to break the seal.
c) The shit she took a stand against was, in order of how it's written to come to her mind, first being "weak"-MINDED (which mainly caused everything else), second because she hurt her friends, then everything else.