Page 2400! Congratulations to Asura and Salagir.

Another training exercise continues for Gast.

If there's one criticism I have is that Janemba has, except for 1 panel, been all teeth. His smug smile has been sadly absent.

Considering how many things have elapsed since then, it has probably slipped her mind. She was also in her arms-crossed 'why is this taking so long, everyone else is weak' character phase, so unlike her brief moments of outrage while watching U13 Vegeta fight Raichi, it wasn't a fight detail that would register for long-term memory.

Page 2095 is another moment of character consistency for Gast. He could end the fight if he wants, but he's holding back for these rare chances of a fight. His last chance considering what his wish is, and what the tournament has to offer in challenges. And no one can begrudge him for doing so since there is no threat against the audience/universe that would force his hand to unleash his true abilities.

Ah, she is judging from a perspective of Ki levels and abilities. She knows that Janemba is inferior to Gast.

I can only presume (unless it is the usual character arrogance) that she has fought beings in the past that have acted like Janemba, considering one should not underestimate the latter to their peril. In Goku and Vegeta's case, any time they thought they had Janemba figured out, he pulled out another technique that decimated them.

Hmm. That's a nice word.

Decimate.

A reminder of page 953. Also, she was absent for the fight against Raichi so she missed how much Gast likes to put on a show. 1 Respuesta(s)

Well that answers that question then.

Why wouldn't his powers work in another universe. Infinity Ultron said it best: "Anything is possible in a multiverse." And broadening one's horizon is par for the course. I got a bit rigid in some earlier speculation hah.

I love the shot of Janemba charging in. Classic DB. This is going to be a really well choreographed fight sequence.

Vegetto is cracking.

Even since that fight against U20 Broly it's been downhill from there. You see this often when characters have supreme confidence in themselves. A calm, reflective, almost humble bearing. But when one's self-image is built around that confidence, well... Vegetto getting a slightly petty by being a tad outspoken is just the tip of the iceberg if I do say so myself.

Although I do cut him some slack for it. Just a few minutes ago he saw a strange alien pop out from nowhere and declare that everyone in the tournament should die. He then taunted him, blinked, and suddenly fell to the ground in literal bloody pieces, with the alien being off-screen beaten by Yamucha of all people! Just sheer bewilderment. I would be confused and little peeved too.

Good on Gast for immediately counter-attacking by targeting the summoner like with Raichi. Keeping that tactical consistency. I wonder if we'll see him power-up. It's been awhile since we saw his aura.

How will Janemba respond? Barriers, portals or even matter displacement?

I question XXI's intentions. All of his fights have been almost immediate victories: a spell to transport Vegetto into an alternate dimension; remote control for No. 18; and Wizard Bibbidi's sealing spell for Majin Boo. Why has he chosen an almost... conventional method of fighting against Gast? Then I remembered Zen Boo on page 2038, page 2039 and page 2040. The closest character the setting has to an omnipotent god had to spend hours in advance throwing everything he knew against Gast, who in his own words is "resistant to pretty much everything" and was relieved a few things worked! "Gast is the only one that worries me. I had take my precautions." The only other time Gast was defeated was against LSSJ Broly, the DBM incarnation of invincibility. It was not a matter of whether or not XXI could one-shot his opponent like he did so many times before. He literally could not this time. Gast is that op.

Makes this fight much more exciting. A true battle of wits and tactics. Who shall out triumph over the other I wonder? We haven't seen nothing yet! :) 1 Respuesta(s)

— Ah~ you're right. Universe 0. Universe 1 are the tournament organizers. My bad.

— I'm not sure about that one. Could you describe the drawbacks using it while dead? From my own understanding, SSJ3 is most suited for someone dead or with temporal Ki to use. When Goku briefly used it against Majin Boo, it shortened the remaining time he had on Earth from a few hours to 30 minutes (after he returned to the Lookout). When Gotenks used it, they (Goten and Trunks after they defused in the Room of Spirit and Time) noted that no matter when they used it, they would always only have 5 minutes left. It is an unnatural transformation which speaks to Goku's skill as a martial artist (although he did have help from a myriad of other martial users to exchange ideas with, and the Kaios as teachers) that he took advantage of an environment where a dead spirit has nothing but time, and Gotenks's own talent who in turn took advantage of his temporary existence to achieve it. This is why the drawback of using it alive became a drain on their vitality and stamina, which surprised Goku. It was his first time using it while actually alive. But I digress. In any case, if there were drawbacks I don't think Goku used it long enough for that to be noticeable since Janemba defeated him so swiftly.

— I had to re-watch the film. And you are right again. Janemba was born and he sealed Yama's castle inside a barrier and then everything distorted.
Yama: "The way things are, I cannot use the powers we have been given to rightfully preside over the next world. Once that happens, the laws governing This World and Other World will break down! The deceased will come back to life, and there will be great chaos!"
Shen Long (when asked to wish things back to how they were before): "It's no use. I cannot grant that wish. The fate of the deceased is entirely within Great King Yama's hands. It is a matter that greatly exceeds my own power."
However, I will point something out that does lend credence to my own interpretation. Paikuhan returned to give Goku and Vegeta time to fuse. Presumably, he has broken through the barrier and freed Yama. But everything returned to normal only after Janemba was destroyed.

— I think I was imagining that his corruptive influence on the wider world was in itself a source of power. Earlier I was wondering what could of occurred had he not been defeated. I guess my line of thought ran off with that in mind.

— Ki is the energy of the body. The more Ki you have, the more you can amplify it and gain more power. This leads to a reduction in damage you'd have towards other sources. For instance, if struck with a sudden Ki blast, your Ki reduces the energy as much as it can. Hence, Ki resistance. This is why users if struck with Ki, that in the series could blow up mountains, moons and eventually whole planets, were left with mostly superficial wounds. This is why villains slowly (a few seconds really) disintegrate with enough time to scream. Their Ki is resisting and then when it runs out- Poof. Dead.

— - I think a good example would be when SSJ2 Gohan confronted the freshly revived Majin Boo. Majin Boo blasted him at point-blank range while he attacked. Gohan, too late realizing the danger, attempted to block. It blew past his guard and he could only scream in pain before he was launched away. Moments later, after Kaioshin managed to destroy the blast with his own Ki, Gohan was unconscious, no longer SSJ2, and his Ki so low that everyone thought he was dead. His Ki resisted just enough to survive, but if Kaioshin had not intervened...

I believe it is implied that a lot of Janemba does is a form of magic. He briefly cloned himself, and Goku. Which amusedly made him fire a Kamehameha at himself to which Goku could only say "You're a magical user (magician) huh?". The barrier formed around Yama station was called a Spirit Barrier. His reshaping of that ogre sword could be interpreted as magic as well, with the slashing being him using the sword as a conduit for his own powers.


I completely agree with you. Although it would probably be hilarious if Janemba is almost immediately defeated. Considering how everyone lost their minds during the chapter specials, I would only laugh.

I did note something worth mentioning after rewatching the movie: Janemba's own talent at fighting.
Goku (after being portal pounded): "I don't know how, but it's as if he can read exactly how I'm going to move!"
Dai Kaio-sama (watching fat Gogeta run away as Janemba chases in evil confusion): "Looks like it's lucky he turned out as a defective creation. As someone adept at seeing through his opponent's techniques, Janemba is not used to this sort of thing, so it looks like he can't predict Gogeta's movements."

Gast will have to be smart about this I'd wager.

What an entrance. And the artwork never ceases to awe. Particularly the composition.

I think what will be particularly interesting is how Salagir and co. will show how Janemba interacts with local space.

If I remember correctly, Universe 1 is a dead universe with no other dimensions. There is no heaven or hell, or any form of complex life anywhere in the physical, material or ethereal realms. Just... Rock. Rock, Stars, debris and maybe a few single celled organisms here and there. And of course: the Dragon Ball Multiverse arena.

Janemba is the product of his respective universe's evils when the tanks that were cleansing all the souls of the dead that pass through was breached. His very existence was an aberration and by the sheer weight of his presence, immediately upon his birth, the barriers between the Earth, Heaven, and Hell were broken and distorted. It was through these distortions that he held absolute dominion as he could rewrite reality to his very whim. But this was all unstable and would permanently damage the very fabric of existence. This is why he was one of the most dangerous opponents in Dragon Ball history. Who knows what could have occurred if he had survived considering what did happen from his brief hour of life, as chaotic and dangerous as it was. Possibly the destruction of more dimensional spaces such as time and space. Only through his death was everything naturally repaired.

His combat abilities are nothing to scoff at either. A raw ki blast at point-blank range wounded SSJ3 Goku (who had the additional perks of being dead and thus no drawbacks from the SSJ3 form, and added pain resistance) so enormously that he was no longer a threat. Despite being outmatched at hand-to-hand combat, he immediately moved to distort reality; to phase away from his attacks, summon portals to redirect and/or counterattack, and warp any object to suit his needs. His iconic sword for instance slashed reality itself: he cut Goku's final ki blast so perfectly that it spilt it two, and even after it incinerated the air around him, he proceeded to cut it and the beans (literal solid condensed balls of reality; it was little wonder why SSJ2 Vegeta, who was also dead like Goku, was almost immediately defeated when he was forcefully thrust into a field of it) with ease. It was only through Goku's own Ki resistance that the damage was reduced just enough that his arm stayed on the shoulder. Subsequently, he was on the brink of death once he was struck again, and were it not for Vegeta's intervention, he would of been cut in twain.

With all this in mind, how will Janemba fare outside of his source of power and the home field advantage he would enjoy?

Janemba is not in his respective universe, but will his presence be sufficient enough to cause a destabilization of Universe 1, or at least the local space of the arena, as it would in his own? Without that distortion, is he still capable of the moveset that made him so iconic? Even without such, he is still very powerful in raw power.

What about Gast? Will he recognize that Janemba is an abomination and immediately move to cleanse Janemba's ki and save the Oni worker beneath?

XXI is right. This is the perfect opponent! Good vs. Evil. Day vs. Night.

Much like Gast vs. Dr Raichi, this one will be the fight of the year!.

This is going to be awesome :) 2 Respuesta(s)

There is a distinct absence.

Something that has been there all your life and you feel like it will always stay there with you.

And now it is gone.

The feeling is indescribable to me. I do not know what to feel about this. I think it will come after I binge Dragon Ball to the end of GT.

Until then I leave a few musical odes to his passing. And a small thank you for all that you built, all that you made and all whose hearts you touched Akira Toriyama. Thank you.

Genki Dama theme (Dragon Ball Z): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPBoESjzhZ4

Genki Dama theme (Dragon Ball GT): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkcUFEfbrQc

Dragon Ball final ending tribute (Dan Dan Kokoro Hikareteku), the end: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGl183v41Zc

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but to my knowledge each special chapter is mostly drawn independently with the ones lucky to be finished getting posted. These chapters can take many years to draw with drafts, re-draws, real-life events, and cross-continental work across multiple languages all contributing to the difference in release schedules. Minicomic 91 tells us how challenging and time-consuming this can be for only a few pages. The first script being started in 2009 for instance and the final pages posted in 2019. It might not be indicative of all the specials, but it does tell us that these talented artists and storytellers do this as a hobby, so we should be mindful and respectful of that. Dismissing their hard work because you want to see something else can be rather disheartening I would say.

We're all lovers of Dragon Ball here, and this is all free. The least we can do as fans is appreciate what story they're trying to tell through the art and dialogue shown, and show support for what they've done throughout the years. 3 Respuesta(s)

Mary Sue has finished her bento. Naturally only the power of food is capable of slowing her down. The only weakness of such a perfect being. Had she been in the stadium earlier, Zen Boo would never even thought of usurping the tournament, such is her greatness!

Oh Look. South Kaioshin trying to look stern... Though I do see that sweat drop. Insert obligatory page 741 reference.

Perhaps XXI is a previous maker of the Dragon Balls or someone who made an earlier original prototype. Or maybe since wish granting devices have their own degree of sentience, they rebelled, and have carved their survival on the universe by fighting for their existence. Hmm. One of the last final mysteries left.

Raditz is almost certainly going to be the hidden hero of U13 since his mind is getting completely tampered with without his knowledge. Oh well.

Ahh~ U15. Perhaps I'K'L grows in response to how much power surrounds it. In a multiverse tournament with incredible beings like Mary Sue, it will evolve, adapt and grow into, what its universe description says as, the ultimate warrior.

Minicomic 120 reveals that the fight was meticulously planned by Arcady Picadi whose draft work Asura brought to life in incredible detail. Considering the hype around the fight itself, was there any other versions of the fight drawn previously by other artists? Did Salagir, Asura, Taopaipai or even Gogeta Jr, draft their own versions before Arcady Picadi?

The elements and the characters effects on their environment have been a staple of the series. Was there moments where you wanted to include different varieties of Kiai/Ki shockwaves like weaponized wind, lightning and fire for Goku and Vegeta to show off and fling at each other?

Considering this wasn't a fight to the death, Goku and Vegeta were both holding back some hidden techniques in reserve for the final weren't they? Combos involving Telekinesis, Ki Constructs, and instantaneous movement for example.

And in a lifeless universe, under whose stars glitter overhead, as the DBM crowd looks on, two friends walk back to their family: happy and proud.

Terrific page I must say with a nostalgic reference too. So simple, yet so glorious.

How to end this? For such a classic Dragon Ball ending we need something to match. Not just for what has come before, what has been done now but also for what will come in the future. That's right, we need the legendary Hironobu Kagayama!

"Saikyo no Fusion / The Mightiest of Fusion (Ending for DBZ Movie 12)"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZnbfXQxV4A

Big thank you to Asura and Salagir for this incredible fight sequence that stayed true to the spirit of Dragon Ball and its characters.

They're smiling! Just like the end of the Majin Boo saga. No frowns or hard feelings. No scrunched faces or inner thoughts of jealousy and vengeance. Two friends who had a go at each other and show great sportsmanship at the end.

"Dragon Ball Z BGM - Everyone is Happy (M929)"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A_Lxv2o8qo

He might be a tad unashamed of copying others wisdom but they do say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

With U9 making another rare appearance, I kind of want to see them more, particularly for interactions with U18.

Perhaps it is not so much the specific race that offers the improvement necessary to future offspring, but the parents themselves who are responsible, as well as their surroundings. Nature and nurture you could say. Earth (and Dragon Ball's story) is a good case study where it does not matter who or what you are; if you are in safe(ish) place, have an admission of ignorance, show a willingess to learn, and survive whatever adversity that comes, then you can go above and beyond any limitations. Comparatively, the Saiya-jin race and Freeza's empire made a class system based on surface-level analysis of base Ki levels. This stifled innovation and slowed growth to a gradual pace versus Earths exponential. Fighters such as Goku, Kuririn, Tenshinhan, and Yamucha, would never have surpassed Raditz, let alone Freeza in their lifetimes if they lived in such an environment. When improvements are made by each successive generation then standards inevitably rise. The children become greater than the parents at their respective moments in history. Assuming no interference that breaks the pace like disease or natural disaster, it will be up to the descendants to continue that trend. One day our characters will die and maybe those like in U18 are the peak that Earth has to offer. All they can do now is to foster a prosperous and happy environment where their children have the tools needed to make that choice themselves. If U18's Pan and Oob or stories like U9 are any indication then the future looks bright indeed.


To add onto this, Vegetto is also a character with a troubling origin. Unlike the fusions of Gotenks and Gogeta, who instinctively know that they are temporary, Vegetto was made on the assumption that for him to be made, Goku and Vegeta must cease to exist. We can also extrapolate his food problem with the idea that it is not just his enormous power than is the problem, but the instability brought on by one of his foundations being a dead person. His body is facing a long-term consequence of upkeeping something that was given a one-time 24 hour existence in the world of the living.

There's a BBC sci-fi comedy series called Red Dwarf that has a conversation that is very applicable to this. Series 6 episode 2 respectively.
1 Respuesta(s)

I love these reaction panels because it fits them so perfectly.

Bra sees that form as a quick fix to her problems. That the SSJ transformation is to blame for her violent tendencies instead of herself. Cell thinks it's easy because he has their genes and if they can do it, then so can he. Pan sees the marked improvement from SSJ and, unlike the other two, is willing to learn how it is done so she will ask them.

U13 Vegeta and Kakarotto, mocking each other as always over their jealousy.

Ah~ Vegetto. He, a fusion born out of desperation and battle. A teenage titan that has faced no equal and defeated all opponents in his universe. When he came to the DBM tournament, everything seemed to continue that trend; where his victory over U20 Broly served to reinforce his ego. But ever since then, he has faced opponents that his overwhelming power could not overcome. U4 Boo, U5 XXI, and U7 Gast. And now he sees his progenitors find something that he, in all his supposed strength, could never think of. Something he cannot blame on magic or trickery. How telling he immediately jumps to conventional opposition as the reason why, and not because they are at peace and doing this as a hobby. That he views them as a threat... I think I now know how to describe him: he's a Superman who has forgotten about the farm.

Perhaps U18 Gogeta can beat those memories back into him? :)

I think "Dragon Ball Z BGM - Giant Cooler Monster! (M1318)" fits this page. Pure hype.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQbAHi2swk4 1 Respuesta(s)

I love how wholesome and sweet this is.

And now: "Dragon Ball Z BGM - All's Well That Ends Well (M2026)"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7Nw4zZwUiI

Has this become a forum for personal validation? I am not taking issue with your interpersonal relationships or calling such connections arrogant. I keep highlighting the statements I take particular issue with. But you keep missing what I am saying by being unable to distinguish separate points from one another. Stop shifting the goal posts.

>"Nothing you've said is incorrect. But like I said, it doesn't change anything he said,"
In the context of your reply, that is not what is communicated. When you make a total encompassing statement about two people's posts and in the same breath confer affirmation and denial, what is one to infer from that? I keep repeating myself here. Your statements contradict themselves. If they did not, I would not have a problem with it. Everything after this statement was you justifying the desire to see Vegeta win which I, again, have no issues with.

That was obvious. Again, if I wanted to argue the finer details regarding that information, I would have done so. That was your summary. Moving on.

I am not saying that my interpretation changes the actual events. Interpretations of referenced events can be changed because opinions are not absolute which we agree on. Particularly when descriptions vary from one person to another. That is all.

Your reluctance is palpable. I feel that if you had the humility to admit even just one of those statements to be incorrect earlier, we would not be having this discussion.

Okay, moving on.

No, earlier I said it was egregious that you said very specific statements, twice, that were contradictory and seemed to ignore what I said, not that your entire opinion was fact. There is a difference between defense of parts vs the whole. I know your opinion is opinion. But what is baffling to me is when you you keep defending small factual assertions and contradictions in those opinions repeatedly. This is made worse when you keep bringing up irrelevant topics as thinly veiled shields. In this instance, even though I quoted specific statements, in the context of your reply you bringing up your opinion on Vegeta's character development, even though it was a previous isolated reply to my stance as a Vegeta fan.

Your opinion on the superhero movie was not stated like the ones I am taking issue with. You keep trying to bog down the conversation in tangents. Of the two of us, you are the only one who has made factual, contradictory statements on personal interpretation of DB(Z) and DBM when replying to opinion.
>"This was eloquently put, but it doesn't change anything he said."
>"Nothing you've said is incorrect. But like I said, it doesn't change anything he said,"
>"but everything I said about the fight itself is a fact."
>"like I said, nothing you said changes that opinion"
>"Everything I stated about the fight itself is factual."

>"Everything I stated about the fight itself is factual."
You did. These are your words. You prefaced your summary of the fight as an absolute truth. Again:
>I am not taking issue with what you see with the fight. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder after all. Your interpretation of the fight however, does not make it any more true than my or anyone else's, short of Salagir and Asura themselves. Please do not make statements that make you appear to be the authority on this. That is all I ask.

Here is what you actually said:
>As I said, if you perceived them as being equals I understand, but as I also said "I DON'T THINK the fight portrayed them as such."
This end point was referencing our earlier discussion regarding our differing visions of the fight. It is one that uses the previous self-proclaimed factual description as a supporting argument. But it itself is not presented as fact or inconsistent. The problem here is once again, you keep bringing up separate opinion points like this in bizarre attempts to misdirect away from what I am saying.

If there's anything this debate has taught me, is that you you were very clear on what you wanted to share and consistent in your communication style. You are very stubborn though.

And I respect you and your viewpoint, even though parts of your tone turned into mockery in this reply. I merely disagree with some very specific statements that you defend seemingly to the bitter end.

Opinions can be shocking. Opinions can be self-important. They can be many things. But that is not to say that the person themselves are nor am I saying it is shocking or arrogant for you to state your opinion. The only one claiming such, and taking personal offense to that delusion, is you. You have taken this far too personally since one of your takeaways from this is that I am somehow against different perspectives. What I am against are contradictory statements and statements in opinions presented as facts which, despite my very specific quotations, are stubbornly defended with little introspection. I did not claim I disproved your or their entire opinion, only parts of it. Please learn these differences and stop being sensitive to the idea that maybe you could be mistaken in something. Thank you. 1 Respuesta(s)

I am stunned that you have transformed into not only their spokesperson but everybody's else. My disagreement with their opinion does negate it but it can lead to his, her or any other reader changing their minds and re-evaluating their position. That is up to them and not you. You saying, again and again, that nothing will change this is just arrogance at this point. You also keep deliberately conflating separate issues here. He said that Vegeta always lags behind Goku which we know from their history to be untrue but, you keep attempting to bind your desire to see Vegeta win to that argument as if one small thing being wrong somehow means Vegeta will lose.


And I was not talking, refuting or looking for an argument about that. Our positions on the character were clear. You keep bringing up and conflating separate unrelated issues.


I am not taking issue with what you see with the fight. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder after all. Your interpretation of the fight however, does not make it any more true than my or anyone else's, short of Salagir and Asura themselves. Please stop making statements that make you appear to be the authority on this and other issues. 2 Respuesta(s)

When someone makes absolute statements, which I would say that I sufficiently disproved, you deliberately giving the impression you have read what I have said but then blatantly ignoring it so you can reaffirm it, twice, is nothing short of egregious and an oxymoron. I can respect your decision to not change your mind but if you are going to present your opinions as factual then there is nothing further to discuss. 1 Respuesta(s)

And the countdown begins!

"Dragon Ball Z BGM - We Gotta Power (Tension) (M1704)"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKyPtzs6-n8

Thank you for saying so but I am curious to know what about it does not change anything he said?

His first point mentions that Vegeta always lags behind Goku. We see this is not true as I detail Vegeta's journey and how it was a series of highs and lows of extraordinary circumstances. In DBM's story at this point in time, Vegeta and Goku are as close to equals as can be. I speculate this will be important later when they deal with Vegetto's rampage (U18 Gogeta let's go!)

His second point mentions Vegeta's track record in Earth's line of defense. In a series where all of our protagonists in the story, especially the movies, consistently get their asses kicked by the villains, this is surprising. Everyone barely manages to survive and only succeed by the skin of their teeth because of mistakes and arrogance from their opponents. Excluding the movies which are folded in DBM canon, Vegeta's first time as Earth's defender is against the Artificial Humans. He thrashes No.19 and bluffs No.20 into running. Trunks then notes the differences and No.17 and No. 18 that everyone subsequently loses against are higher in power then those in his time. Semi-perfect Cell is definitely a failure on his part which he does get humbled for, but he does redeem himself by distracting Cell long enough for Gohan to finish him off and, as we see in U17 where this does not happen, they all die. Majin Boo is also a point of redemption and, were it any other opponent that did not have magical instant regenerative abilities, his sacrifice would have worked. Everyone else later fail to beat Majin Boo until Vegetto's birth. For OG Majin Boo, the Genki Dama was Vegeta's idea because he wanted a symbolic victory for Earth.

His third point is about the fans wanting a win. Perhaps I am in the minority of fans who are fine with Vegeta not shaping his existence through the idea of strength and being finally happy and free from the shackles of his past. He has left the evil and tyranny of Freeza and the Saiya-jin race behind and he can fight against his friend for fun rather than for vengeance or petty personal vendettas since that does not define his character any more. To me the fights are part of the journey and are not the necessary endpoint for the culmination of it.

His fourth point is about their previous encounters and Goku thinking Vegeta is not worth the effort. I mention this especially at the end of my fourth paragraph.

His fifth point is about Vegeta being an antagonist punching bag to make Goku look good. This circles back to the second point. You might as well say that everybody else, including Goku, is a punching bag for the villains. It's a team effort and they barely win most of the time anyway. Taking particular issue with one character getting pummeled when everybody goes through the same or worse seems unnecessary.

I feel that they are in more ways than one. If you compare and contrast the difference in their approaches to growth during the Cell Saga where the gap widened significantly, you will find a crucial moment. Vegeta had a training partner ready (Trunks and maybe Piccolo), he had an extra year in the Room of Spirit and Time, he had battle experience against Cell and he correctly identified some of what Goku and Gohan did to achieve their (at the time) new SSJ forms. But, he tried to do it alone once again and the rest they say is history. Vegeta's change in mindset after Majin Boo allows him to not only bridge that gap, despite Goku's own journey in Heaven, but also achieve SSJ3 and the final SSJ transformation that Gohan was given by the Dai Kaioshin. That is a commendable achievement honestly. I talk more about this in my final paragraph.

I guess we can agree to disagree about the fight. I perceived it to be an intense series of back and forth blows where the fight could of gone either way. I am happy to see an epic contest by drawn by Asura built up by Salagir over these many years draw to a close. Bonus points as well where their discovery of the final SSJ transformation angered Vegetto. He cannot blame his progenitors using magic or trickery on that one. Hah! 1 Respuesta(s)

In the original series, the reason why the gap between the two widened so significantly was because of a difference in philosophy, mentality and extraordinary circumstances. Goku is the quintessential character that defies the idea that your birth defines who you are in life. If you dedicate yourself to improvement, reflection and willingness to learn from others, you can go beyond your limits and surpass anyone. Vegeta at the beginning of the series was a character centered around strength. His saiyan-jin upbringing combined with his service to Freeza made him build a mindset that does not rely on others for support. Allies, yes. Friends, No. Much like Freeza himself, if his own strength were to be insufficient, his confidence and pride would collapse leading to increasingly desperate actions. This would influence his decision making during his life and it is not until Majin Boo, that Vegeta finally breaks free from that.

On Vegeta and Goku's first encounter, Vegeta was the overall more powerful fighter. Kaio-kenx3 and later x4 were near-suicidal maneuvers that overtaxed Goku's muscles so much that he could barely move afterwards. Even though Vegeta, in his rage failed to perceive that, when he transformed into an Oozaru, he literally crushed Goku. He shattered his bones and would of squeezed him to death, Attack on Titan style, were it not for Gohan and Kuririn's intervention. When they next encountered each other on Namek, while Vegeta was stunned by Goku's progress, Goku gave Vegeta a senzu. Initially, Goku had the edge because of his super-training and constant zenakais since their last meeting. But, when Vegeta ate that senzu he surpassed him completely. It instantly repaired years of scars and unhealed damage so much so that Vegeta went through a super-zenkai. Whilst before he could barely contend with Recoome, now he could hold back Freeza's 1st shell form. Goku only surpassed Vegeta after he went through his own super-zenkai during his meditative healing where he re-aligned his Ki with his body after the fight against Captain Ginyu. Although Goku would go on to become the LSSJ, Vegeta was in a solid position after Freeza's death.

Vegeta's training during the three years before the Artificial Humans arrival meant that when he became a SSJ, he had surpassed Goku. Vegeta got more battle experience during his beat down of No.19 and later from No.18 so that when Goku awakened from his sickness, he had a heads start. When Vegeta emerged from the Room of Spirit and Time, he was the most powerful man on Earth at the time. The gap between the two was significant. So how did Goku surpass Vegeta again? This is where their differences stand out. It is heavily implied that Trunks and Vegeta did not train together even though they shared the same space. They mostly did their own individual training. Considering their background we have a like Father, like son moment where they found a SSJ form that boosted strength and power and they failed to see anything beyond that. Contrast this with Goku. Goku first trained his son to reach his level so they could improve each other. Both would rise higher and faster as they had a partner to go up against. Secondly, when Goku found the Ascended SSJ form and the next form beyond that, he identified its strengths and weaknesses and immediately ruled it out. To surpass SSJ, something other than strength was needed. If the SSJ form was triggered due to intense hatred then what if you were calm as a SSJ and re-triggered? Goku identified that would be the way forward and Gohan's Ki boosts in times of hate would be the key. So that is what they did to the shock of everyone when they emerged. Their Ki was different. Calm. Normal. Trunks was very close in his guess that it would be a precursor to another transformation and Vegeta was spot on that they trained intensely so the SSJ form was normal for them. Despite both of them facing Perfect Cell and having an idea of what they were facing, they both preferred to train alone. Even with an extra year inside the room, they failed to bridge that gap because as they did not realise the significance of Goku's plan. After Goku's death, Vegeta resolved to never fight again.

While Vegeta was on Earth, Goku was in Heaven. Time passes differently there and Goku was in a place surrounded by countless spirits and fighters to learn new ideas and techniques from. An ideal place for someone who is humble and willing to learn from others to improve oneself. Is it any wonder then that the gap between them widened so dramatically during that seven year time skip? Vegeta may have trained even harder than Goku at that time but it would never be enough as he himself never found the SSJ2 transformation. In his desperation, Vegeta once again sought power and used Babidi's magic to awaken the hatred inside himself to trigger the SSJ2 transformation and raise his Ki further. All in a final chance to beat Goku during his brief stay on Earth. In the end, they were equal and Majin Boo's revival meant the fight was a draw. Goku not using SSJ3 is because it had a weakness of consuming his life ki, which at that time was the temporal energy of his 24 hour body. To deliberately shorten his remaining time on Earth and never see his friends and family again while there's another threat on the horizon such so he can win a fight against his friend and rival who is going through a mid-life crisis? Goku is not the type of person to do that.

Dragon Ball Multiverse continues Vegeta's growth after the end of Z. It becomes clear that in this story, Vegeta has won in all the ways that matter since Majin Boo. He has broken free from the shackles of his past where strength is all that matters. He is not a primitive barbarian like his alternate self from U10. He is not another version of Freeza like in U13. And He is not an unstable fighting obsessed space policemen like Vegetto from U16. He has found peace on Earth surrounded by friends and family. He has incredibly bridged the gap between himself and Goku by dedicating himself to improvement, reflection and a willingness to learn. They are equals now in more ways than one. They unlocked the final SSJ transformation and in a straight fight between the two it all came down to a few punches. They fought and he lost. Now he is content. It's beautiful really. 1 Respuesta(s)

What a beautiful ending.

It seems only appropriate that "Dragon Ball BGM - Loss of a Master (M512)" be played.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6qSlZNnuAM

Music used for after Goku's sacrifice and Vegeta's resolution that he will never fight again, now used to symbolize the peace and sincerity that Vegeta feels. His enemy became his rival. His rival became his friend. His friend became his family. He trained, he fought, and he lost. It was a good battle and now he can rest. Brilliant.

We need a soundtrack for those manga panels! "Dragon Ball Z BGM - Goku Goes...Super Saiyan? (M1119)" fits perfectly. The same soundtrack used when Goku and Majin Vegeta butt heads in that beautifully animated choregraphed sequence on episode 230.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nDk2qan0XU

What a fight.

Both fighters are exhausted. Both have an arm broken. Who will triumph? One or the other? A draw? With possibly three pages remaining, the decisive conclusion will be dealt by whoever lands the final blow.

BGM M1412 "Android 14 Catches Trunks' Sword" by the late great Shunsuke Kikuchi seems fitting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6jgAwDmk0A

A moment of surprise and shock but it's not over yet!

Loving the art and story Salagir and Asura!

You are all correct. The panel of Goku is rather self-explanatory. He's excited for the upcoming match to face his student. The young man who has been raised from childhood to be his successor. It could also be interpreted as tongue-in-cheek humour as readers were waiting for almost two years between page 1339 and page 1886.

My past selfs interpretation is... to put it mildly; rather off the mark. I am ashamed that I actually wrote that because it is reminiscent of the type of language elitist "fans" use in their respective fandoms. I.E personal projected opinion sneering at what they disagree with in a cruel polite not-so-subtle tone that just makes you feel awful. I do not like seeing it in other fandoms and I am sad that I did one myself. I am sorry Salagir, Asura and everyone who read that comment. I can only you forgive me for this long over due apology.


I disagree with this statement because in my mind, this kind of perspective of Goku seems to flatten him into a one-dimensional character. He has committed mistakes, but that does not mean he is incapable of learning from them or that it is permanent. After Raditz, I do not recall an enemy ever deceiving him through communication means again. He likes food because he has an enormous appetite and he likes to fight because he's a martial artist who also loves to experience new things from those he respects. But, that does not mean those are his main character defining traits nor does it mean he would choose food or a fight over those he loves. Despite repeated efforts to de-escalate the situation on Goku's part, Majin Vegeta literally had to murder thousands of people to goad him into a fight. Goku at his heart is a very kind, honest, respectful and merciful individual but there are many moments in the series where he challenged on his beliefs.

Kuririn is a good example of this. His gruesome death to Freeza causes Goku to feel so much hatred that he transforms into a SSJ. However, unlike his past mission of vengeance where he kills his foes, such as Piccolo Daimao and Tanbarin, he aims to make Freeza suffer. Against Kaio-sama's advice, he decides to remain on the planet, not because he wants a good fight, but because he wants to avenge Kuririn's death by breaking Freeza at his full power. And he succeeds. If I remember correctly, he stops the fight and says "I've had enough... There's no point fighting you now that you've started trembling. You should live like that, in peace." He tries to leave but after Freeza accidently bisects himself, he begs Goku for help. The moral crisis Goku then goes through at that moment is incredible. Exhausted, wounded, in a literal state of rage and hatred from the SSJ transformation; he has every reason not to show mercy. He tries to self-justify a decision where he should leave Freeza to die. But he does not and helps him in the end. Because that's who Goku is, someone who sees the talent and skill of characters like Vegeta and Freeza being used for evil deeds and thinks "what a waste" and gives them a chance to change. Sadly, Freeza was broken and his cyborg corpse was finally killed by Trunks.

Some could call Dragon Ball (Z) the quintessential shounen, but it is telling how many modern shounens are static in their portrayal of their respective characters. Time in those stories is usually measured in weeks and months and very rarely in years. In comparison, Dragon Ball shows the life and times of a little boy growing up to a teenager, a father and finally a grandfather over almost 40 years in story. The significance of Goku's journey through the years cannot be understated. From the the lessons he has learned from his interactions with friend and foe alike, the enormous amount of love he holds for his family and friends, as well as the incredible self-dedication and discipline he has for his chosen craft, I would say he is an incredible individual with a heart of gold.

If you have not seen the original japanese anime of Dragon Ball (Z), I strongly encourage you to, because it is very beautiful.

This panel of Goku ignoring everything and going 'Hey, can I fight now?' is completely unnecessary. It's Dragon Ball Super in terms of behaviour and so abrupt in tonal shift that it makes him look apathetic to everything that has happened. People could of course debate of whether he's in character or not, but again, the panel doesn't need to be there and could just as easily be removed for more audience reaction. This is a a fanfic of post-Z not DBS, so I'm beginning to wonder if, in absence of trying to imagine Goku 20 years after the end of Z, began watching DBS recently...

I'm beginning to feel that Asura and Salagir are suffering from the same thing that many authors have. Dragon Ball Super and Dragon Ball GT are especially guilty of this: Not knowing how to write or present Goku properly. 3 Respuesta(s)

What a beautiful page.

Aw, how cute.

Thus ends the reign of the Majin wizard of U11.

The King of the Demon Realm is now free and he has a friend too!

Nice.

Can there be a new special on Universe 11 showing the aftermath? 'Cause that'll be fun yes? :)

This is hilarious.

Good 'ol Zen Boo.

Knowing him, he's definitely revived the villains as well.

Is this really Vegetto's rampage moment? It seems a tad early. I thought we would see it in 2025 or something.

I don't think he would be the final boss. More a chaotic neutral. He's there for his own amusement and he knows that simply taking over wouldn't be as fun. Even if he was the final boss... How could anybody stop him? He was quite confident about his chances against Broly and Vegetto and his solo performance against the entirety of DBM during his temper tantrum shows how far above everybody else he is. Gast's near loss to Dr. Raichi shows he's not invincible, and could be easily speed-blitzed like Zen Boo did against Gotenks. It's a numbers game at this point. A game that Zen Boo would ultimately win. There's just too many of him and he's far too powerful to be beaten in a straight fight.

As for XXI? It is because of how mysterious he is that makes him so dangerous. We know he has his own set of Dragon Balls, has a magician meat puppet, and we know that Zen Boo was shocked by how great his power was when he entered his apartment. He beat Vegetto using nothing but one teleportation spell. Knowing how broken magic can be, who is to say he couldn't take advantage of Zen Boo's own omnipotence to destroy him using the ki-link between each piece. A magic energy virus if you will (assuming that Zen Boo couldn't easily stop something like that). That's just one possibility of course. Goodness knows what Salagir and Asura have in the works. Would he be the final boss? Now that Babidi is out of the way he very well could be. He could also simply be a red-herring and there isn't a final boss at all.

Going by what we've seen I would say Zen Boo was never fully captured. I'm sure he was taken by surprise by Gast and most of the pieces of him that were there in the arena was 'imprisoned.' But after being handed to the Dai-kaioshin, he merely kept his imprisonment as a nice charade to give everybody else a sense of peace and security. There are plenty more pieces of him scattered about with chapter 44, page 1354, page 1724, and page 1817 showing the audience just how much that he is merely being here for his own amusement.

He is as close to an omnipotent god that we'll ever see in Dragon Ball history. So long as there is a piece of him, combined with his own super-speed and Instantaneous Movement, he can be everywhere at anytime. He did this to his own universe, goodness knows just how far he's flung pieces of himself throughout DBM's Tournament universe. The novelization even says that the debris that Ginyu Bra and Vegetto fought on had pieces of Zen Boo on it. The liquid pool that Ginyu Bra fell on being one of them.

I would go so far as to say that that he has already studied and absorbed the Vargas technology for dimension hopping. Who could stop him and how would they even notice? Page 167, page 528, page 735 and page 737 being good examples of this.

While the events of this story are going down, parts of him are probably already exploring other universes. His mass hive mind more than capable for the task. It's insane.
1 Respuesta(s)

We as an audience are getting snippets of a conversation read from parts of a script rather than a simplified version that gets the point across.

The strange dialogue and abrupt shifts in the conversation between each page, nay, each speech bubble are quite jarring I must say. How could this happen? Mayhap there's a problem somewhere in the translation. I recall the earlier 'passive' controversy awhile back.

Such a pity that what has happened here has led to a mass exodus of the fan base. I guess it was inevitable in a way. Their feedback, dedication, patience and love for this story was taken for granted.

I wonder if after this chapter, there'll be another special on U16. That'll cheer fans up I'm sure...


One only has to look at your edit to see how things might have been. Small changes in dialogue and expression and it works beautifully. Bravo sir. Fantastic. 1 Respuesta(s)

Well... Character development. Yay?

However, the way these past few pages have been written just feels off to me. The dialogue feels stinted and strange.

The bizarre positioning of Bra is just putting me off.

This is the epilogue/conclusion to the Babidi sub-plot right? It feels rushed in my opinion. What is going on at this point?

Have Asura and Salagir given up following the original script? This chapter feels like a last minute re-shoot of a movie emerging from development hell. 1 Respuesta(s)

Bear in mind that despite this loophole in Babidi's mind control, it was an enormous effort on Vegeta's part to break free from it in the first place. He wanted that control because of the power boost it gave so he could fight Goku. When Babidi gave a direct order to kill the Kaioshin instead of Goku, that violated his selfish desire for falling under him in the first place. Cue the contradiction coupled with a unhealthy dose of pride, and you have a free man (addendum: in the grip of a mid-life crisis).

It certainly tells just how 'young' Vegetto is really. He's only a few years(?) older than Son Bra herself and he was built on two characters who hadn't fully completed their respective character arcs yet (Vegeta in particular was dead). Whatever vestiges of those two great figures has long since faded as the years went by. Much like a teenager however, he believes that whatever his forbearers faced, he (and especially his family) can easily handle it. Unfortunately, unlike most teenagers, he has had the responsibility of protecting an entire universe hoisted on his shoulders, so the innate idea that he and only he can handle everything has been reinforced by his success rate and unchallenged power.

It is highly unlikely Vegetto will change that much after this tournament unless he is directly spoken to and beaten by somebody he would acknowledge as an equal. Himself from Universe 18. The events of page 418 are a long way off, but these pages are laying the groundwork for it. Perhaps, it is XXI who is the one that is responsible for Vegetto's rampage. The man who claims mind control can be easily beaten off gets manipulated into a berserker state no different than his daughter. A fitting irony I would say.

I just remembered...

While all of this is happening, and everybody here is debating a great deal of topics (civilly), there's a certain someone who has been eating Breakfast and will probably walk out when all of this is fixed and go "Did I miss something?"

Page 1458: 1 Respuesta(s)

What musical soundtrack from classic Dragon Ball could capture this moment? The sense of tragedy and loss as our heroes return to the tournament grounds they had once stood in with family and friends just hours ago? The sudden haunting revelation that an arena once teeming with life now lay in shattered ruins.

Dead.

Silent.

Dragon Ball BGM - M424EXT: "The Sleeping Princess in the Devil's Castle/Chorus of Doom" by Shunsuke Kikuchi.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DP1mxAxWC4

Fitting I would say :) 3 Respuesta(s)

Ahh. Good old Zen Boo.

An omnipotent god in every sense of the word. I think every universe after this tournament will have him there. New places to explore and see. There isn't anything anyone can do to stop him anyway. He truly is the gem of this story and the pinnacle of OG Dragon Ball villainy. Better watch yourself Zeno and Omega Shenron... Because Zen Boo is coming to see you... It is inevitable.

Poor Babidi. Kept alive by magic so he won't die from asphyxiation whilst simultaneously being tortured by... getting tickled on his foot while being flicked in the head as stuff is drawn all over him. Fitting for such a egotistical, manaical, narcissist. Ha.

Well, they're finally coming back. The next page will be them teleporting and reacting to what has happened. There'll probably be a panel of Vegetto taking notice of Bra.

Hoho. I was mistaken earlier. This is starting to get very exciting :)

Aw. How Sad...

Then I remember the previous page was "I AM NOT PASSIVE" that... did not go over well with most people.

It kinda makes me laugh to be honest.

The first special on U18 was... decent I suppose. I didn't like their treatment of Goku and Vegeta. It felt inconsistent with their End of Z characterizations and mentality. I also didn't like how they implied that Vegeta was the one who had the edge if they both fought at SSJ2. They were exactly equal when Majin Boo was revived 'because Vegeta needed a power-up from Babidi'. To say that they're still equal 10 years after Majin Boo? After Goku goes on another journey of self-reflection, meditation, and discovery in anticipation for Majin Boo's reincarnation? No. I don't believe it. The change of Gi was symbolic for a reason. The differences in these two characters philosophies means that Vegeta will never have the edge over Goku. They're just too distinct in their approaches towards one's self-improvement and well-being...

However, I don't want to rant otherwise I'll be here all day so, moving on!

Well... After 5 months the main story is back. Yay! The epilogue to the Babidi takeover arc has finally arrived.

I just hope that Goku gives U16 Bra a hug. If Goku were her father (or foster-father), this would never have happened and I feel that if he kneeled down in front of her, put his hand on her shoulder and gives the fatherly wisdom and warmth that she do desperately needs right now, she would take it to heart and remember for the rest of her life.

Would I forgive her? No. However, I can't kill her for her crimes. I certainly can't imprison her. Can I redeem her? What's the first step towards redemption? Making sure that the person who committed these crimes feels genuine remorse. She seems to do so according the cover art... At least, I hope she does...

Her values are centered around 'not wanting to lose'. She's lost. What will she do now?

Looking forward to the next page :)

Absolutely spot-on.

If there is any post that perfectly encapsulates what is going on, this is the one. Bravo, bravo.

Give yourself a pat on the back sir because that was gorgeous.

The way she was raised is just as at fault as the way she behaves. She must take responsibility for her own actions and be held accountable for them but she must also be lent a helping hand to do so.

But of course, we already know this due to years of analysis, reasoning and speculation.

This page merely confirms how terrible a parent Vegetto is and how undisciplined Bra was allowed to become. They're both at fault for this and the Babidi take-over arc is the culmination of decades of failure between them. Of course, Vegetto is his own person who is barely a year older than Son Bra herself, so it is hardly surprising.

I guarantee that if Goku had a daughter, he would have pampered her with love as he did to Gohan post-Piccolo. He would train her to control her Ki, but he wouldn't force her to be a fighter.

And we know what Bra would have been with Vegeta as a parent.

I quite honestly hope that when U18 Gogeta is born, he kicks their asses. Vegetto has never really tasted defeat before and, since he was born in battle, it may be the only thing that gets to him. With Bra holding him to be this unstoppable god, Vegetto's defeat may finally lay the groundwork for their re-development of their respective worldviews...

Looking forward to the U18 Special. Here's to hoping the artists and writers re-watched Dragon Ball Z recently so as to not allow DBS to influence their work. 2 Respuesta(s)

I'm back!

Nothing has changed!

Beating her up won't solve anything because she has developed apathy towards pain since there is almost always a senzu nearby to fix everything. Verbally chastising her won't solve anything because her core philosophy of not wanting to lose will not change. Both will just increase her stubbornness and whatever lessons she 'learns' she absorbs to support her own world-view.

The astounding lack of empathy continues from childhood to her adolescence. What hope is there for her? I just don't see a way forward for this character.

Great art as always... I am definitely looking forward to the return of the tournament. 1 Respuesta(s)

Well, it's definitely a nice page to end this sub-plot on (finally). The consequences of this will definitely be a chapter in length (lots of dialogue). Something to look forward to of course when we see it in the final months of 2020.

Mind, the breaking of the 'M' on her forehead... It would of been far better in my opinion to show an 'M' inside her mind-space breaking instead. Unlike Vegeta or Cell, she was fully under Babidi's control, obeying his orders and calling him Master. The 'M' on her forehead would have been a good reminder of what she's done and the change of expression in the final panel would been a bit more impactful.

But, this works too I guess :)


I gotta say that I disagree with that (Vegeta playing Babidi). Vegeta was... half under Babidi's control. Vegeta did deliberately allow Babidi inside his own head (for purely selfish reasons), but Babidi's magic was very powerful regardless of Vegeta's intentions. It was as Babidi said: "You're right, he is different than the others! He does have an evil heart. He didn't come here for the purpose of defeating evil. We can use him!"

Babidi's 1st order to Vegeta is something that must be noted.
"What was his name again...? Uh... Vegeta! Steal their energy! Fight them as hard as you can! You can even kill them if you like!"
"Shut up! My only target is Kakarotto! I don't care about the rest."
"What's with him? He isn't completely under my control... This has never happened before... Oh, well. It doesn't matter."

There was no mental struggle or head-clutching or sweating on that one. However, what if Babidi on his 2nd command, noticed this and said "Fight Kakarotto"?

After all, when Kaioshin called Vegeta's reasons for doing, what is in essence, a temper tantrum, stupid... Well, he outright states: "This is everything to me! It does not matter what happens with Majin Boo or anything else!"

Instead, Vegeta was given a direct command that outright conflicted with his primary reason for falling under Babidi's enslavement: Killing the Kaioshin. That's when Vegeta broke free but, and this is crucially important, it was still an enormous mental struggle for him to do so. Despite all of us knowing, particularly after Goku figuring it out and Vegeta's confession, that he allowed Babidi to ensnare him in the first place. Cue, the heat-clutching and sweating.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpxjODpNblk ~ Anime version

As for Cell... Well, he's Perfect x)

This is your story of course. I'm just arguing schematics here.

What happens after this is definitely going to be fun to see. :)

Earlier, I had made the assumption that what U18 Bra was saying would be wrong because it would ultimately lead to her death.

Who is being impaled on page 1723?

But, it appears I was mistaken. This page is a welcome change of pace.

That of course leaves the question: What will be the final cliffhanger next page? 3 Respuesta(s)

I'm quite glad U18 was safe from the continued existence of Vegetto. Vegeta and Goku, while flawed, are still far better parents to their children during a time of peace than Vegetto ever could be.

Goodness gracious, no wonder why Son Bra is so messed up. Previous specials have shown it was mostly sunshine and rainbows with a few hints of a hidden curtain of malaise over U16. I mostly attributed it to Vegetto and Son Bra (an unnatural existence coupled with an unstable child brought up in an unstable upbringing leading to an unstable universe), but now? The events behind the scenes are starting to make much more sense now as we see what is behind the curtain.

I'm unsure where precisely in the timeline this flashback occurs as I reconcile this with my interpretation of Son Bra's character... But, I believe it is sometime after the events of chapter 54. It's never too late to address the needs of a child as you lay the foundation for their personality later on in life. But this pathetic stunt by Vegetto? A deliberate, and malevolent attempt to put the fear of God into Son Bra's very heart and soul so he can selfishly motivate her to train and beat him? So he can finally have an opponent that'll give him the fight he so desperately craves to give meaning to his existence since he was born in battle?

Is it any wonder why she responds that her life goal in life is "To be the strongest in the universe?" Is it any wonder why she fell so easily to Babidi's sway? Is it any wonder shy she does not like to lose?

I admit I was mostly wrong about how she wants to be the strongest so she can feel better about herself due to her lack of self-confidence. She wants to be the strongest so she won't be killed by her own father. And somewhere along the way, that goal slowly got twisted into her only life purpose and molded her into this apathetic person that tries to achieve whatever small victory she can get.

When one has a Father like Vegetto, compared to the warmth of Goku or the calmness of Vegeta, it's just so, so sad. She still loves him and yet, when one re-reads all the previous U16 Chapters (which mostly took place after this particular page, it changes everything.

It's incredible how ONE page can change a perspective so quickly and so suddenly. Props to Salagir and Asura for being so full of surprises.

On a side-note: it may be 5 years from now, but I definitely am looking forward to the events that were shown on page 418. A fusion born from Goku and Vegeta 10 years after the end of Dragon Ball (Z) and 20 Years after Majin Boo's death. The two characters at their best fusing to make Gogeta. Vegetto, a fallen angel, confronted by his pure counterpart! I can see Son Bra's reaction:

"F-Father? No... He's different. He's-"
"Yes, I am Gogeta now, Son Bra. I am also Vegetto, one might almost say, Vegetto as he should have been." 3 Respuesta(s)

"You have no idea what I've been through!"

And so, the cycle of depression continues. I wrote a nice little post about this on page 1740.

She really is fragile isn't she? Most who pursue such goals are... But of course, when one's father is Vegetto, it is hardly surprising.

U16 is a very sad place. Poisoned and fractured by Vegetto himself, albeit unintentionally. The contrast is not more clear than in page 739 and page 740, if the differences between U16 and U18 Bra wasn't obvious enough.

Depending on what U18 Bra says next, U16 Bra will either break down further or double down on what she has for some semblance of dignity and pride. She's currently making excuses so let's see how this turns out.

Looking forward to it!

June 24th, Wednesday, a new double special begins, a full adventure!
...
Prediction: This comic does not get finished until 2030.

Well~ Its' not the scene I was predicting, but it's certainly close to it. A flashback rather than a gaze around the battlefield.

Perhaps this is the scene of "What am I doing" that I was hoping for.

So, it seems only fitting that I play this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgLZL0Sdw34

Will it be enough to snap her out of it? Or will she double-down on what she's going through as many stubborn people do when confronted with the truth?

Here's to a hope for a happy ending :) 1 Respuesta(s)

Over the course of this story and its many specials, it has become abundantly clear that at the core of U16 Bra's philosophy and values is that she does not like to lose.

This means that that the loss of family members, what she feels is rightfully hers, and her position of strength are all sub-branches of this core aspect of U16 Bra. However, while she can get particularly angry and can get quite tearful if she were to lose the first two (e.g page 136 when her half-sister Pan was killed and page 276 when she unintentionally nearly murdered her Father and half-brother in her blind rage), it is the feeling of weakness and the feeling that she is only second-best that is what really sets her off and will override whatever feelings she has or might have regarding the loss of the first two.

Her own insecurity regarding her position of strength is the strongest aspect of U16 Bra's trinity of values. She does not like to lose and feel weak as a result which page 273 showed to great effect. I attribute this insecurity over this issue to the presence of Vegetto, whose own insecurity and stability over a lack of a proper adversary (unsurprising considering he was born in battle) defined his parenting style to raise the next generation as fighters.

In page 213, when asked by U18 Bra what she does in life, U16 Bra did not answer something along the lines of "I sometimes explore the universe with Father and settle diplomatic incidents" it was "I train all day and night to be the strongest in the universe." It is a mind-numbingly shallow goal considering she has seen what happens when you reach the top. She is unable to treasure what she has and live a normal life like U18 Bra or her own U16 Gohan, because the environment she grew up in (one of battle and training) has left her stuck in a self-depressing loop of self-doubt and self-loathing. One might expect a character to have a more noble drive to go to such lengths for great strength such as the desire to protect and prevent the loss of that which you love. Instead, her desire for strength stems from her lack of self-confidence. Growing up in Vegetto's shadow, her desire for power is what allows her to feel better about herself. Her pride as a person is defined by this.

On page 1227, Bra said the following just before she transformed into a SSJ: "I won't wait. I'm too powerless. I hate it. You always win. I feel so weak against you...! So... Weak!!!" Then, during the resulting fight when she almost destroyed the Earth she said on page 1229 "In a fight... There are no rules!" What this means, and is very critical to understanding how Babidi ensnared her, is that she'll do whatever she can to win and feel better about herself whatever the means. Despite spending some time with Gohan and Pan to better control herself and her temper, it is what Ro-Kaioshin said in response to Kibitoshin on page 1244 that makes clear just how much from a very young age that this problem was never properly addressed:
"Vegetto's little girl is back to control, it seems."
"Yes... For now."

There's nothing more permanent than a temporary solution. On page 1603, it became quite clear that U16 Bra surrendered very willingly to Babidi's magic, because it finally gave her a chance to attain what she has always sought in life... Power. Full control of it and more (he enhances their abilities beyond their limits after all). Both Gohans and U18 Bra use Vegeta as a prime example to try and coax her out of her little temper tantrum, but what they failed to understand is that Vegeta was very much under Babidi's control until he gave an order that directly conflicted with his prime reason for falling under Babidi's enslavement: Killing the Kaioshin. That's when Vegeta broke free because he wanted to fight Goku but it was still an enormous mental struggle for him to do so. U16 Bra has all that she wants right now but it is also all that she has right now. She merely forgot about Babidi in her quest for validation against those that managed to wound her (thus cementing in her mind, her position as the strongest).

She is very much a slave to her own fears more than she cares to admit. Power is all that matters to her, and the feeling of being on top (in some cases literally). That is why she was a sadist towards Ginyu/Cold so she could experience that euphoria of humiliating an opponent by giving them a false sense of hope for victory. That is why she played around with everybody (to her own peril) for a certain amount of time after she saved her 'master'.

I think U18 Bra needs to die (with one last passing remark) to finally hammer home the impact that living life is not solely about power. For that bump of character development, U16 Bra needs to be alone surrounded by the bodies of the fallen to have that moment of "What am I doing" so she can turn her life around to something more noble and virtuous much like Accelerator from 'A Certain Scientific Railgun.'

But, I will not be surprised if Salagir and Asura manage to surprise me yet again by going down a different route of character development. I feel that U16 Bra's change in person will be a stepping stone to changing Vegetto later down the line when he himself goes on a rampage (possibly). 2 Respuesta(s)

One page of dialogue down, possibly another to go and then U16 Bra will be alone...

1 Respuesta(s)

His wisdom was something I apparently forgot. He couldn't win through a direct confrontation so he decided to pile onto the moments of doubt and regret that he noticed throughout the fight.

U16 Bra is merely having a temper tantrum. She has a massive inferiority complex that has been encouraged and never ceased growing since she first transformed into a SSJ at the age of 6. The sheer hatred of her own self-worth in relation to everybody else? She wants to be the strongest because she does not want to be second best. Her ego and fear will never allow it. That goal has consumed her ever since.

But, she'll never be number #1. This fight, despite its length has made clear that Bra, despite many of her skills, is far too flawed, far too overconfident and far too much of a stubborn narcissist to really be capable of the growth that our favourite heroes from U18 were capable of. To reach that state of enlightenment, the perfect warrior that the Dai-kaioshin spoke of? The poison that is Vegetto has fractured U16 too much. If she (Bra) went back into that environment it would ensure that she would never be able to change. Her values and actions are a reflection of that universe. A seemingly unified group on the surface that is broken at its core. They are Protectors of light in their minds but truly harbingers of darkness in their hearts.

I predict that U16 Bra will kill U18 Bra after some conversation (U16 Bra is far too insane to even consider dropping this proverbial high right now). And then, finally, after everything, she will declare how amazing she is as she stands atop this literal mountain of corpses. But the page will pan out to see the fallen. She's the strongest but she is also alone... Completely and utterly alone...

Will she have a moment of epiphany and go "What am I doing" in realization of what she's done? Probably but probably not.

Looking forward to the next page :)

Beyond the initial... shock value that this page holds and the personal significance it holds to me (I've been theorizing, complaining and joking about the Dai-kaioshin's inaction since this entire sub-plot started! Which has been... almost 3 years now!), I refuse to believe he just walked over to Bra after seeing EVERYTHING that occurred without any sort of plan in the event she were to just kill him outright once she noticed his presence.

Heck, he had the ADVANTAGE! He's been in telepathic contact with Zen Boo presumably since his false capture by Gast (I would go further and say since their first meeting!) and has observed everybody the entire time. Why do most fighters in Dragon Ball stand on the side-lines generally not interfering with fights? Not only to stay out of their way but also for information. Facts. Details. Knowledge. Everything from their Ki and how it moves and flows through their body to how they fight, how they think, and what their skills and attributes are... Right now, that is something that the Dai-Kaioshin should have in abundance since he's been observing the entire fight while communicating with with Zen Boo.

So, he must have a plan right? Page 1730 and the Carbonite deception springs to mind. Perhaps he intended to get her close enough for him to grasp her head and undo Babidi's magic on her mind since Zen has informed him from page 1724 that Babidi has been... neutralized.

Or perhaps something else entirely? Maybe it's a ruse and it's an advanced form of Shishin no Ken (Multi-form) where the clone is as close to real as possible with the entire body (already composed purely of Ki energy) fully replicating blood and vital body functions.

I vaguely remember making a post awhile back about the Dai-kaioshin and how powerful Big Boo is in relation to his counterparts, and I think Salagir said that while the Dai-kaioshin might not be the strongest in terms of strength, he is still powerful in his own right through his abilities and techniques.

Hopefully we'll see some of that in the next page and FINALLY see the comeuppance of this spiteful, sneering shrew...

Since page 1628... I really want to see her taken down a few pegs, regardless of her backstory. There needs to be consequences for her actions and what better way than in classic manga/anime fashion than a good 'ol fight of well-drawn proportions where she gets beaten down in the ground (whether it be mentally, physically or both).

Y'know, I don't think I fully realized just how much Asura's art has slowly but surely changed from Gogeta Jr's art style to his own magnificent design.

I mean, compare any page, ANY page from the first chapter he did (Cold/Ginyu vs Baddock) to this page right here or the previous one. There's literally no comparison.

The shadows, the lining, the shading, the drawing... Everything's so vivid and expressive.

Not to mention how the white boarders around each panel are slowly but surely being phased out so he can draw more into each frame.

Great stuff :)

Also, I think I'm going to lay two theories here:
1. Next chapter we'll see a Cell Jr find Goku and Co on the deserted planet and bring them back to the arena as we saw in page 419. Taking inspiration from historical ancient messenger services, a line of Juniors leading all the way back to the arena has been set up with their Ki being used as waypoints for the teleporters. During or after Bra's defeat, Goku and Co return for the aftermath/epilogue.

2. With all of Babidi's army dead, and Babidi himself in deep space with no idea where he is, Elder Kaioshin has no need for U9's fighters to defend the room he's in. I have no doubt that with his omniscient vision, he has been observing and watching this fight very, very closely (much like how he was doing with Gohan as Majin Boo terrorized the Earth). With no threat to his person, U9's fighters can assist our heroes in defeating Majin Bra catching her completely off-guard and ensuring her defeat. Towards the end of the fight, the events of Page 732 will occur where Yamucha gets a lovely chance to shine.

Hoho, this is going to be fun :) 1 Respuesta(s)

That final panel is such a spectacular image.

It's incredible! The shadows, the lining, the expression... It's just perfect.

I hope that when DB Multiverse finishes, Asura, Salagir, the admins and the moderators can release such divine works of art as wallpapers :)

If Bra walks through that, Broly style, and just smirks down at Gohan as he weakly chuckles while she uppercuts him into the great beyond, it'll be something.

Fantastic artwork as always.

Happy Birthday Asura!

Salagir need to make such events a special announcement so all of can commemorate this wonderful occasion :)

After the words exchanged on previous pages, this feels sad.

Well, there's the evidence.

I guess U18 Gohan surviving having his spinal cord shattered was merely due to his own durability and his Ki protecting him just enough from Bra's wrath.

Also, I love how the Cell Jr. in U16 Gohan's hair is just chilling while he rages out.

This is going to be quite the fight.

I am surprised :)

You've definitely understood what I'm trying to say except for one little addendum: Toriyama forgot he'd already established characters moving FTL when he made Gotenks slower than light because it was done more for narrative purposes (to ensure Gotenks would not be around for the events of Majin Boo's de-fusion), but also because he was fatigued from writing and drawing Dragon Ball for the past decade which was increasing his forgetfulness and the likelihood of inconsistencies.

>When I read the Dragon Ball manga, Toriyama isn't afraid to give feats.
Interestingly enough, for me it's kinda the opposite. For me, I felt that as the story went by (particularly once things went beyond Earth), and as the characters just grew more and more in Ki, skill and ability, Toriyama show-cased less and less feats. I say this because it becomes increasingly difficult to make a fight scene impressive when both sides can fling out planet-busting Ki. He compensated for this post Namek (which the anime sadly followed suit in) by making everything, with Ki blasts in particular, more compact (i.e they only blew up certain areas vs the nuclear explosions of the past).

Like you say, he does specify many things, but there often are many times where he does contradict himself when he does this or just doesn't say anything and that's one of my key points. E.g Vegeta's gravity and Goku's lifting strength.

>Toriyama had characters eventually become FTL
Yes.

>When they finally do become FTL, he doesn't have a character state it
Well~ I mean, they kinda do? In a weird, convoluted sort of way. Once King Piccolo was introduced, and we started going beyond things that Bruce Lee and Muten Roshi were capable of, we constantly had characters, who are able to boost their senses and perception to unknown degrees with Ki, say while watching a fight somewhere along the lines of: "H-Hey did you manage to see that? I couldn't see that at all! It was so fast!" Once we go through through the Namek saga and Freeza, I like to believe that's when our characters are FTL. But, quite sadly, nobody has ever found a way to measure each character's Ki to verify this. Even if there was, what that means for their speed, strength, durability etc. yield in relation to what is overall possible for them because of the way Ki works for the characters, where they can use any amount for any area and go beyond their normal limits, just throws most conclusions out the window. The only one given, courtesy of Raditz and beyond, was the alien scouter power level scale, which gives an unknown arbitrary number, which was also used for narrative purposes to showcase how useless it is to rely on such values when facing an opponent who can mask their Ki. If we used that and low-balled calculated their speed based on Muten Roshi's blowing up of the moon, or even Tenshinhan, Yamucha and Kuririn casually out-running a sports car (whose speed is also unknown since this takes place on a fictionalized super-advanced Earth that has hovercrafts, hammer-space items (capsules) and great-white sized aquatic fish living in small rivers), then post-Namek, it does support the idea that our characters are FTL. But that number, is as I said, an unknown unit of measurement... So it doesn't really mean anything useful... kinda? On the bright side, conjectures are fun y'know? :)

>He had numerous instances of characters not moving FTL (such as Goku trying to escape Namek, Gohan being happy to fly to school because it'd only take him 20 minutes, Super Saiyan Trunks flying home for a long enough time that Goku has to distract Buu; or Buuhan trying to stop Vegeta and Goku from fusing)
I would like to point out that Goku, while he could make a Ki barrier to give him some air to breathe, was literally moments away from passing out from the adrenaline rush wearing off and his wounds and fatigue catching up to him. The Nameless Namekian's spaceship, travelled to Earth from Jupiter in a single second. That's around 9.3 light-years speed per second, and it still took them 27 days (if I remember correctly) to travel to Planet Namek. With that in mind, Planet Namek must be around 21,695,040 light years away from Earth if it took them that long to traverse the distance. Dr Briefs' spaceship took 6 days (huzzah for Human ingenuity!). So, his spaceship must be able to travel around 41.85 light-years per second. Goku, already exhausted from his fight with Freeza would not be able to fly the distance in time with what little Ki he had and would have died in space. Not to mention that doing such a thing would have been the last thing on his mind. He did say he was close to giving up before he found the Ginyu force spaceships.

Also, don't those other examples you mention look quite familiar in terms of narrative purposes? Where a character who should be FTl suddenly isn't? :)

>After writing FTL characters for years and never stating it, Toriyama then forgot characters could travel FTL
Yes. It wouldn't be the first time he does such stuff since they're honestly minor details for him. Goku and Vegeta as I've mentioned are good examples but Cell is a of course an infamous one since I still to this day see confusion over his head nucleus. Toriyama admits he forgot about it in a post-chapter note, and then contradicts himself again by having Cell himself say he survived because of the lump in his head... Which Goku blew up earlier xP

Honestly, it wold of been so much better if he had Cell have two cores. One: a back-up file in his head (taking after Piccolo). Two: the main computer core in the center of his chest which the absorbed Artificial Humans are sent to and the one he regenerates his self-destruction from.

But I digress.

>He then had a character explicitly give a speed feat, intended as impressive, that was not FTL
Yes. I amend my previous remark. Now that I look at it, the context of his flight around the world looks precisely for narrative purposes. There is now nothing else to prevent the events set in motion for Majin Boo's defusion now that Goten and Trunks have to wait 1 hour to replenish enough Ki to fuse again.

>It just requires a lot of conjecture.
Yes! :)

>It requires Toriyama not writing like Toriyama (stating every kind of feat but the FTL one) and then forgetting what he'd written earlier and then contradicting it.
Well~ To me it sounds very Toriyama. It's not a feat that should be taken at face value considering what other feats during the Boo saga that contradict what, for him, was written and drawn years ago.

>Whereas the way I see it, if Toriyama wanted them FTL, he would've said. At the end of the series, where things are most impressive, he has them say they're not FTL. Seems straightforward. There is a consistent pattern of feats of people being slower than light throughout the series--Toriyama must've forgotten his characters were FTL very quickly!
I honestly think Toriyama having a character say that they're FTL rather than the standard "So fast! I didn't see them move" wouldn't be his usual forte. And yes he would forget quite quickly. 10 years of exploring and drawing the same type of story, whilst trying to juggle dozens of characters, plot points and minor details and helping out as a consultant and concept artist on the Dragon Ball TV series, it's sequel Z, and all of its accompanying movies... Well, FTL seems like a distant concept. Probably brainstormed early on and forgotten in favour of the usual shock and awe of watching somebody move fast or other things done for narrative purposes.

>Again, the answer is "dramatic effect." Having Roshi go "boom" and blow up the moon is dramatic. Having Piccolo go "boom" and blow up the moon is dramatic. I view them as outliers on an otherwise surprisingly consistent feat scale.
Oh yes, most definitely. Also narrative purposes. But y'know Ki is just weird when discussing feats things such as this. x)

>On the whole, feats in Dragon Ball are a lot tamer than some would think.
That my friend I can most definitely agree with :)

Oh my.

I think our dear writer and artist is taking inspiration from One Punch Man.

Bra going full Garou with that blood in her eye and Cell blowing away his offensive advantage by talking and telling his enemy what he's found out.

It sometimes works... But this kinda breaks the flow and pace of the fight, particularly compared to chapter 70. You don't need to have Cell tell us that.

I still love it of course. But maybe I'm just sad that Cell is about to get his head smashed in the next page xP

@Faster than Light, round 3
@Ashanark
Highly unlikely you'll read this but if I may interject, I would just like to say a few things.

You should take Gotenks SSJ flight around the world with a grain of salt as, not only is it inconsistent with has come before, but also because this was written during a time when Toriyama was very, very fatigued from writing Dragon Ball. Chapter 1 was released in June of 1984, and SSJ Gotenks was chapter 482, was released in August 1994. Almost 10 years of straight weekly updates of the same story.

Since he likes to make it up as he goes along, minor details he definitely started to forget as time went by and the Boo saga was no different. Perhaps two good examples would be: Vegeta training in 150g gravity (as a SSJ no less), while 10 years earlier, he was busting his ass off at 300g and presumably beyond for the next 3 years in preparation for the Artificial Humans; and Goku barely able to lift 40 tons in his base form, despite having almost nothing to do in Heaven BUT train, but also after his time with Gohan in the room of Space and Time, his time training for the Artificial Humans, his fights and Zenkais with Freeza and the Ginyu force... He busted his ass off in 100g (bringing his total weight to somewhere between 18 to 24 tonnes give or take his weight and his weighted clothing), and his overall strength after 11 years had only doubled from when he was weaker than Captain Ginyu? Definitely not.

Additionally, as Piculra noted, the Moon was destroyed by Master Roshi in early Dragon Ball and later by Piccolo. Are our characters FTL post Freeza and Cell? I certainly like to think so if we do simple power scaling and the very nature of Ki and the speed it travels alongside the speed the characters travel in reaction and movement to it. When we also take into account just how much Ki the characters kept accumulating as the years went by in the story, Gotenks SSJ flight around the world looks more and more like a moment Toriyama put so so he could get Gotenks to defuse in time so that nothing would interfere with Mr. Satan and the criminals causing the events of Majin Boo's own de-fusion. 1 Respuesta(s)

After constant self-speculation and flimsy trails of logic that have very little or anything to do with what is going on or what we're talking about, your last word is to outright put words into my mouth in a blatant and obvious attempt to make me seem like a fool, and now claim that I'm not stating arguments anymore and that I'm saying no to everything?

I asked you where you got your false statements in my 2nd reply. You provided nothing. If you're going to state outright falsehoods, I am going to correct you and say why this is. I argued against you with evidence but if you're just going to stick your hands in your ears and double-down on your faulty and incorrect point of view, then all I can say is that I pity you.

Good day to you. 1 Respuesta(s)

No it was not. You made an assumption based on what you falsely interpreted and then attempted to try and answer it in the same space using flimsy logic.

>Let's quote him: "You need to hit where her energy reappers". It's not "where it WILL reapper", it's where it reappers. So, again, disappears > reappers > start hitting that way. And since, as you said, Bra and her ki SHOULD move together, the moment you need to sense her ki to react, you're already moving after she reappered, and therefore, you're not predicting, you're reacting, and Cell shouldn't react faster than she acts.
No... No. You do not need to sense somebody's ki to react or anticipate their movements. Again, Bra and her Ki move together and no separately. This is a fact. Again, Instantaneous Movement is instant (which we've both agreed upon). There is nothing faster. What has happened here is, again, Cell not moving faster than Bra's teleportation, but actually him moving before she can react. Cell knew she was going to teleport and had already pulled his elbow back to attack her as soon as she teleported. There was already an elbow in motion waiting to greet her face when she used Instantaneous Movement to move behind Cell. I repeat: Cell anticipated her movement and acted accordingly.

>So here what is implied is that her ki reappers first, Cell reacts to that and starts attacking that way, and then Bra appears and gets hit. It's not how I would treat IT, cause that's not IT, but it's what we're seeing here.
No it's not. U16 Gohan merely says that you need to hit her where she reappears which is common knowledge.

>I dunno, maybe I just got the meaning of that sentence wrongly, but I dunno how.
You got it wrong when you started to believe that they're treating Instantaneous Movement wrong and that her Ki/energy moves first and then her body afterwards.

They can do that. But they've never needed to do that ever. I hope you're not one of those feats people where, unless it's stated, it not possible.

>They can exceed the speed the human eye can see in brief bursts, thats it...
>At this point, they're simply "sensing" her energy. In previous Z fights, they either senses the energies or simply watched it happen. And no matter how strong they are, they cant see something that moves faster than light.
After King Piccolo, Piccolo Jr. and Raditz, things started to escalate beyond that very, very quickly hence why, once we got past Freeza, it was commonly known that they were Faster than Light-speed. It's just basic power-scaling really. Not to mention that when everybody augments their abilities with Ki, they are able to perceive and move at such high levels of speed. Just roll with it like DC Comics does with their pseudo-science.

>Bra on the other hand can use her instant teleport which IS ftl. However, she still needs to materialise, which gives them a shot at the energy appearing.
Correction: There is no delay. 1 Respuesta(s)

False. It is what happened.

>That's not what Gohan is saying.
It is what Gohan is saying.

>Basically, WHEN Bra disappears, you have to attack WHERE her ki reappears.
Yes... That's what I've said.

>So the chronological order according to what we're told here is: Bra disappears > Ki reappers > Cell reacts and moves accordingly > Bra appears and gets hit.
Your logic formula is heavily flawed. Bra and her Ki move together and not separately.

>But that doesn't make sense cause Bra disappears = Bra appears, cause that's what instant means. And even if that's not what this instant means, it would still imply that Cell REACTS AND MOVES in between those 2 things, making his movement faster than IT, meaning Bra moves faster than IT too, meaning it doesn't make sense to use IT.
You've noticed your own flawed logic and you're trying to answer it in the same space. I would suggest not going into the realm of speculation and attempting to answer all variables. When you start getting lines like "and even if that's not what instant means", you start to lose common sense.

And to answer your... self-argument. Again, Instantaneous Movement is instant (which we've both agreed upon). There is nothing faster. What has happened here is, again, Cell not moving faster than Bra's teleportation, but actually him moving before she can react. As soon as she teleported, there was already an elbow in motion waiting to greet her face. I repeat: Cell anticipated her movement and reacted accordingly.

>I know. That's the point.
I'm glad we agree.

>Now she can't with the same skill and more power.
Again, she's playing around. She's not actively with all her might trying to end it.

>Again, that's what should happen
That is what has happened. Do not forget about the events of Chapter 70. Her arrogance keeps costing her but it's not lowering her confidence that much.

>but we've been told twice already she's getting serious now, and yet she apparently is still playing
Twice? And precisely where are these instances where "we've been told she's getting serious now" twice? Nowhere in chapter 70 and 73 (so far) is this stated. Not even in this page as it only has Piccolo saying, in a panicky expression, clutching U18 Gohan's paralyzed, broken body after his spinal cord was shattered, that "she's aiming to kill". One should take his sentence with a grain of salt since, as I've noted in my first reply, that there are more efficient and effective ways of killing someone. Particularly when there's an active healer with instant healing items running 'round the battlefield healing your opponents. We know that she's not 'really' aiming to kill since U18 Gohan would be dead if that were the case.

>Every time I see Bra getting cornered by them, I'm seeing Vegetto getting cornered by them
...Really?

>which just remins me of Krillin vs Gohan on DBS
I must respectfully ask you not to mention that series from now onwards.

>Also, the team has done nothing special until now.
I respectfully disagree with your remark.

>A charged makankosappo, which for some reason Bra couldn't sense
Again, Bra is not infallible. She is perfectly capable of being taken by surprise. She didn't sense it because she was arrogant and overconfident at the time (and still is). She underestimated them and over-looked the possibility that Cell (the only other person she knew of on the arena that could penetrate her barrier) was not truly loyal to Babidi. With that being said, it was still a very strong Ki-barrier since it visibly winded Cell just to pierce it.

>and now a movement prediction which apparently isn't.
Correction: It is a movement prediction.

>Sure. That's what I'm hoping.
Again, as I've said in my first reply: She is not aiming to kill. She's seen the Piccolos with their Senzus (specifically, page 1623), so she knows U18 Gohan will be back soon enough. Ki fighters, particularly ones with such high degrees of power (like Bra), are perfectly capable of channeling their ki to heighten and strengthen their attacks instantaneously. If she really wanted to kill U18 Gohan, she wouldn't have given him a light elbow attack like that, and instead blown his head off or shattered his body to ash.

>But it's a hope, and it's the opposite of what we're literally being told right here and shown with space Gohan.
We'll just have to wait see what happens then won't we?

>Remember how Cell reappered after exploding? Remember how Frieza reappered after her transformation?
How are these examples relevant as a counter-argument to what I've said? They have nothing to do with the current situation.

>Again, of course if she's playing and letting them throw senzus around on purpouse, it's normal to let them live.
It's not a question of "if". Again, she is playing and letting them throw senzus around on purpose. I refer you to page 1623. Now that her 'master' isn't here, she has all the time she wants to have some fun. 1 Respuesta(s)

True. Instantaneous Movement is Instant, however, what happened is here isn't Cell moving faster than that (Shame on DC comics for doing such a thing), but merely him anticipating her movements and reacting accordingly. This has always been a staple of the Dragon Ball franchise when two highly skilled fighters meet. Instantly adapting to your opponent's fighting style on the fly and attacking with your own techniques (or theirs) to get good hits in. That's why in the anime and manga, after some filler barrages, they show both sides getting good hits in after continuous blocking, dodging and evading.

To put it simply, Cell knew Bra would Instantaneously move out of his initial punch (a feint), and had already moved his elbow to attack her just as she reappeared, giving Bra no time to react and thus landing a successful blow.

Regarding Ginyu. She deliberately handicapped herself for her own entertainment. She fought using conventional fighting tactics to give Ginyu a false sense of victory and to train herself, and then, when it was too much for her, she very calmly ate a senzu and quickly showed the difference in skill between them. Ginyu, already exhausted by their previous encounter, couldn't do anything to counter her and was quickly defeated.

Ginyu, unlike Bra, has no emotional qualms with handling high levels of power which is why he was able to use her SSJ2 form, which would send Bra into a blinding state of rage and instinct. Bra (and everybody else failing to train her to use that power), had set up a mental barrier to block her from successfully using it because she was afraid of hurting her family and friends. Babidi released that and now she's at full power.

She is 'way stronger' than her enemies, but she's not failing in every page. She's prolonging the fight for her amusement. As the beginning of the fight shows, when she took out U18 Gohan, and then crippled U16 Gohan, and merely blocked both Piccolo's Makankosappo barrage, she wants to have fun. This is her one chance to be her 'real' self, uninhibited by any barriers and she's going to make the most of it now that 'Daddy' and the others aren't here to stop her.

Not to mention, that you need to give the team some credit. Yes, Bra is a highly skilled fighter, but, she is also facing highly skilled fighters in their own right, and it would be a disservice to the audience and the story if it were one giant stomp-fest in favour of Bra. Bra is not infallible and she is capable of being taken by surprise. She has suffered wounds, but it's certainly not slowing her down. Wait and see what happens.

She's not aiming to kill. She's seen the Piccolos with their Senzus, so she knows U18 Gohan will be back soon enough. Ki fighters, particularly ones with such high degrees of power, are perfectly capable of channeling their ki to heighten and strengthen their attacks instantaneously. With that in mind, if she really wanted to kill U18 Gohan, she wouldn't have given him a light elbow attack like that, and instead blown his head off.

Finally, the Piccolos are still alive because so far, the flow of the fight has given her very little chances in the way of 'taking them out'. And even there were, right now, she has other priorities on her mind. She wants to have some fun. 1 Respuesta(s)

Yeah! Go get her Cell! Show this gal what the pinnacle fusion of Earth's finest warriors is made of!

Also, possible page panel composition problem in the first two panels. We've been reading left to right this entire story. But the first two panels is read right to left.


I believe it's because, when he regenerated from that single Cell, it allowed him to fully restore himself much like a senzu or dende's healing would do and more. His body now had a chance to fully reconstitute itself from the ground up (rather than partially after receiving heavy damage in battle) and, using the damage received in battle as data, could adjust itself accordingly to match whatever would be thrown his way. Thus, when he returned, he was far more powerful than SSJ2 Gohan (hence his reformed confidence).

Oh man, U18 Gohan out already... Again! His spine is broken this time :(

My boy Cell coming in hot! Let's see him punish spank this naughty girl!

Speaking of which, the longer this fight goes on, the smaller Bra's... Bra becomes... How is Asura going to resolve this nudity issue I wonder?

N-Not that I'm into that sort of thing! It's just, she's going to receive quite a bit of damage so... 1 Respuesta(s)

Yes. However, it's even longer. Jokes about the fight aside, one only has to look at Quicksilver's scenes from X-Men to get a more first-hand look at time dilation when moving at super-speed. But, it is also worth mentioning that the characters back in the old Dragon Ball adventure days were casually moving at speeds greater than that. And than Raditz, Nappa and Vegeta came along and changed all that. Fast forward 30 years after facing many villains, and going through bone-busting trainings, fights and power-ups, these guys are moving so much beyond Light-speed that it's not even funny.

However, for narrative purposes, the artists aren't going to depict them fighting for what seem like days. It's a manga fight after all. It's going to be quick and to the point.

Considering how fast these guys move at this point, 10 minutes is a very, very long time.

Well, time for the team to improvise on the spot like they initially did. Not much else they can do. 1 Respuesta(s)

I love the meta-humour here.

Although to add onto the defense, once we got to the Namek and Freeza sagas, the difference in Ki between each person just made it impossible for team-work to make much of a difference. When Gohan and Kuririn attempted to 'help' Vegeta in his fight against Recoome, Kuririn was taken down in one kick, and Gohan had his neck broken in a single attack. When Vegeta was literally being beaten to death and Freeza openly asked Piccolo, Gohan and Kuririn if they wanted to help him, none of them moved because they would only be hastening their deaths. When Goku was fighting Freeza, the same thing applied, and they would just get in the way. When Goku was preparing his Genki Dama, it took all of Piccolo's ki (who was at full-power thanks to Dende's healing earlier) just to blind-side kick an off-guard 1st form Freeza! When Gohan and Kuririn used all their Ki to blind-side ki-blast an off-guard Freeza (who blocked it at the last moment), all it did was annoy him!

By the time Perfect Cell came along, it just became a standard rule that everybody stand-by and wait for the opportune moment as none of them would be allowed to live long if they all charged in as one. They were only alive for the villain's amusement and entertainment. Majin Boo just reinforced this. It's best to leave it to the strongest and most skilled amongst them (no matter their age).

Heck, even this current fight against Bra is another example. U18 Gohan prepared his "most powerful punch" (an enormous concentration of Ki), blind side punched an off-guard Bra, and all it did was bruise her cheek!

I think what needs to be said is this: Gohan may be a bit embarrassed about it, and Piccolo may be a bit annoyed by it, but it's a strategy that has worked for them many, many times. They have survived and triumphed over every threat that has come their way because of it and that is why their universes have "survived this long". They require no creed, indoctrination, rules or guidelines. They require no technology, genetics or suits. All they need is for everybody to be who they are. All they need is hard-work, dedication, training, friendship and family.

And in the end, they will always win :) 1 Respuesta(s)

Hah! I called it!

Hmm. Group strategies...

Ok, if Son Bra is the raid boss then the fellowship facing her will be thus:

Cell will be the guardian.
Gohans x2 will be the champions.
Piccolo x2 will be the lore-masters.
Helioites will be the wardens
Majin Boo will be the rune-keeper
Cell jrs. will be the burglars.

So, they have some good tanking, skills, healing, debuffs, and dps. The problem is that the boss has many abilities that'll make her tankier than most and she has massive dps herself. How do they circumnavigate this? They'll have to spam debuffs and disable her as much as possible, using hit and run tactics and whittling her hp and mana down until she falls. They can't face her in a drawn-out confrontation as she'll inevitably start to annihilate those who she deems unnecessary and they can't face her in open combat as she'll dominate any who try to face her with the exception of the Guardian who can hold her off for a brief amount of time.

Thankfully the boss, although one of the most diverse and unique bosses so far, follows past boss patterns of stopping to monologue and sacrificing crucial moments of time to gloat and satisfy their own egocentric vanity. The fellowship can take advantage of this and find the chinks in her armor needed to put her down.

Good luck team!

On a side-note: I wonder what our dear Wizard XXI from U5 is doing? I wonder if he's just watching the entire thing with some amusement and just waiting for the whole thing to resolve itself so he can get his wish.

What a glorious page! It immediately sets the tone for what is about to occur.

Hmm. A barrier huh? Well, she knows that her barrier is no longer adequate protection for her dear master because of U19's warriors and the fresh one she has made is quite enormous compared to the previous one... So, I predict that she's going to use her Instantaneous Movement to move Babidi to a faraway location in the depth of Space and then immediately teleport back. The barrier is deliberately made quite large so Babidi will have enough air to breathe. Then, she'll gloat about she won't have to hold back anymore now that she has no one to protect.

The assembled fighters are shocked and try to engage her as one or two of them try to locate Babidi using their Ki senses. In the pages to follow, as many are beaten down and some even killed without mercy, Zen Boo watches entertained and very amused at what he sees and goads the Dai-kaioshin for his inaction as he gets increasingly more and more conflicted about what to do.

More glorious Asura art to come! Hoho, this chapter was delayed so I wonder what they'll show us.

This is going to be quite the wild ride :)

Ahh. It's good to be back.

Now, we'll see U16's Son Bra at her (hopefully) critical stage of development. All her techniques, all her skill, and all her rage (as well as the added upgrades that Babidi may have done to her) and she'll taste true defeat for the first time that was NOT at the hands of her father.

Hoho, I think we'll all be looking forward to this battle royale. Oh man, I wish Zen Boo lifted his blockade of the arena's location. The universes' main fighters that were teleported deserve to see this!

Mind, I'm sure the Dai-kaioshin will get a nice lightshow... I still hold onto hope he'll do SOMETHING, rather then just stand there... quivering... I guess that'll be used for a plot point later down the line. Maybe Chubby Boo's death?

Regarding the previous chapters... I don't think I like the 'Mirai' special. There's that familiar DBS and DBZA versions of Goku and co seeping into the story and I am not a fan of it. Please, do not follow DBZA and DBS' route of; "Oh, Goku's always been naive! That's why we're going to portray him exactly as that in every situation (combat or otherwise) and ignore his canon character development that began during his Dragon Ball adventure days and really took off after his fight with Raditz! Yeah, go fanfiction, woo!"

If only Pilaf and his team released King Piccolo earlier so that U13's brainwashed Goku (he can only be pitied at this point) could have given him a quick end. That last page of him sitting alone in a desolate wasteland... It's just so sad.