Would South Kaioshin be SSJ2 tier? Like could he beat Dabura in a one on one?

zero logic was saying: Damian Qualshy was saying: I don't know what to think about the eyes on South here. Is it indicative of something?

Also, WHAT A HIPOCRYTE! This entire damn tournament was influencing the destinies of all the universes!
I wouldn't call the character a hypocrite necessarily. I just think is inconsistent characterization

Osha was saying: Can't say I care much for South Kaioshin's depiction in this comic as a whole honestly, it feels extremely forced. I know there was nothing to go from but making him a brainless brute just looks like an antithesis to what Kaioshins are supposed to be.

Nah, South has been consistently portrayed as someone who thinks holds all the power and with bit of an ego. So this actually works for his character pretty much, when someone does something that he doesn't like.

CompactCoven was saying: Obviously this is only a guess, but I feel like this whole recruitment phase is a Chekov's Gun being set up, in the sense that if XXI was going to win, then narratively this scene of him "recruiting people to steal the wish in case he loses" wouldn't be writtenEven if U5 XXI wins against U18 Goku, U5 XXI would still need to get helped by those DBM villains to get his wish anyway, because otherwise there is a chance that U1 Kaioshins, U12 Trunks, U12 Android 16, U15 I'K'L (if he is still alive), U9 Elder Kai (if he is still alive), U13 Raditz (if he is still alive), U9 Yamcha, U7 Gast, U18 Goku and U16 Vegetto could try to get in the way of U5 XXI's wish.

Even if U5 XXI is more powerful than most of the DBM tournament Z-fighters, they can still potentially get the U1 Dragon Balls before U5 XXI gets them, thus U5 XXI would still need to get helped by those DBM villains to get his wish even if U5 XXI wins against U18 Goku.

Burner283828 was saying: XXI must have some big flaw.Friendly reminder that XXI was actually defeated on nineteen of the twenty universes that are participating in the DBM tournament.

U9 Elder Kai probably knows/remembers how U9 XXI was defeated on Universe 9, thus at some point off-panel U9 Elder Kai probably could have told U18 Goku how to defeat U5 XXI.

Burner283828 was saying: CompactCoven was saying: Super Gojita 3 was saying: ok, so I would think it funny if androids 17 and 18 were granted the multiverse travel ability, and they hijack the machine, and strand xxi in u0.

and the "all universes are in danger" line is hyberbole as xxi faces everyone in a very awkward situation.

that, or piccolo saying that line happens, but he's doing his best "movie trailer voice" impression aka don la fontaine, and it amounts to piccolo or a piccolo cosplayer doing the whole "in a world where..." shtik.

anyway, the multiverse being in danger would seem to hinge on xxi's plan coming to fruition in some way.

so...I guess it either works, or he wins in some other way
Obviously this is only a guess, but I feel like this whole recruitment phase is a Chekov's Gun being set up, in the sense that if XXI was going to win, then narratively this scene of him "recruiting people to steal the wish in case he loses" wouldn't be written
I feel like he must have some significant weakness that Goku can identify and exploit. Page 993 implies he's up there in power with Zen Buu / Super Saiyan 2 Fusion Level. If I'm being pretty generous and say Super Saiyan Normal Goku is as strong as Buuhan... and with Page 2074 and Super Saiyan 2 as 10x the first level in DBM... Goku would be 10000x weaker than XXI???? When XXI's the one with unfair magic?? XXI must have some big flaw. Honestly I'm getting some vibes that he's like actually going to get killed and his wish was just to revive him 1 minute after his death or something.

I think salagir mentioned that bra and vegetto are still stronger. it was on discord before.

so gokus got a better form, but is still weaker.

regardless, xxi might have some kind of flaw goku can exploit, the issue I have isn't any of the "goku powah level" its that a xxi driven revolt will be dimished in terms of twist, since the twist is given away.

but there is some merit to "we know, but the MC doesn't" kind of plot. it happened it db before, like roshi being dead, and goku didn't know, even though we did.

it can work, but I feel it would be better if xxis scheming was kept behind the scenes more here. its fine though

Super Gojita 3 was saying: ok, so I would think it funny if androids 17 and 18 were granted the multiverse travel ability, and they hijack the machine, and strand xxi in u0.

and the "all universes are in danger" line is hyberbole as xxi faces everyone in a very awkward situation.

that, or piccolo saying that line happens, but he's doing his best "movie trailer voice" impression aka don la fontaine, and it amounts to piccolo or a piccolo cosplayer doing the whole "in a world where..." shtik.

anyway, the multiverse being in danger would seem to hinge on xxi's plan coming to fruition in some way.

so...I guess it either works, or he wins in some other way
Obviously this is only a guess, but I feel like this whole recruitment phase is a Chekov's Gun being set up, in the sense that if XXI was going to win, then narratively this scene of him "recruiting people to steal the wish in case he loses" wouldn't be written

Zensubean was saying: Villains love falling for obvious lies.
the thing is: he isn't lying
he has no reason to lie, there are infinite universes
if he lost a trillion trillion trillion universes to these guys, that's no closer to infinity than zero is, his machinations are unaffected by them

Good thing we have Uub coming back from other dimension in crucial moment to crush the party with his absolutely amazing magic powers ????

I wonder if giving away part of himself might make him noticeably weaker for his fight against Goku? I guess it depends on whether he's adding a portion of his power to their own or if he's just enhancing their preexisting abilities.

If Elder Kai really did die, do you think Vegetto's going to be curious about what interrupted him and find out what happened? Unless the South brings it to light all on his own...

Also, this does take place after he's made the wish in preparation for his next match, right? Seeing as he's done like 45 new things we've never seen him do before, a possibility does exist that we've already seen the fruits of his wish come up in this very chapter... Buuut probably not.

DestroyerOfVegetards was saying: If they can hear his thoughts and see his past, then they know that he consumed universes and intends to do the same thing to other universes, likely including U13. They can also see his intention to use them to do his biding as well. So whatever "thoughts" and "memories" he's showing them are just fabricated or selected. No one would seriously share their thoughts and memories with strangers just to gain their trust, Vegeta should know this.

Saiyans are wild and rebellious, especially these U13 Saiyans. XXI might be underestimating them.
While he may well be deceiving them regardless, the fact that there's an immeasurable amount of universes means XXI can simply steer clear of the U13 Saiyans for a similarly immeasurable amount of time.

It depends on whether there's actually an infinite amount of them; he might literally never have a need to interact with them again, or, if there is a limit, then he could still spend an absurd amount of time on his own before ever needing to come into conflict with them. Since they now share a telepathic connection with him, they would likely understand this point quite well, and whether he does or not, it'll seem like he stands by it.

mAc Chaos was saying: wait

what if XXI's plan is that vegito helps him -willingly-?

maybe the senzu really was legit, and vegito isnt mind controlled or gone crazy, he just chose to team up with XXI on purpose

that would actually be cool
Turns out, he just wanted to have the cool U16 Vegetto vs. U13 Vegetto vs. 18 Gogeta matchup, and that's the whole reason he's setting all of this up. He's gonna get 16 Vegetto real angry at the other one as well as everybody else along the way, all as a ploy to get more sick what-if fights. And then he'll eat the winner, of course.

XXI seems to have been one of the few to understand the potential of infinity in the form of the mutliverse from the beginning of DBM. He must have realized long ago that there is no point in deceiving the U13 Saiyans. There are an infinite number of universes. XXI literally never needs to step foot in the universes where the U13 Saiyans are present until the end of time (just in case they are all successful and share with each other as promised). I'm guessing XXI is being honest with the Saiyans here. It's like Vegetto. Convince your opponent with the truth.

I have to say, XXI reminds me a bit of the Immortal of Pandora in the past pages. His approach suggests that he has already lived all possible scenarios and possible dialogs and possible lives in some way in his long existence. He seems willing to actually share with everyone. The multiverse sounds big enough for him, very atypical for a DB villain to be honest. I'm hoping a potential plot twist regarding recruiting all the villains is yet to come.

I'm interested in Kakarot's statement. He's a fan of gratuitous violence and brutality. What could XXI show that impresses even Kakarot? Consuming people alive, like XXI tried with Gast? Or something else, like maybe XXI showed a delusion regarding Elder Kai and Raditz and Kakarot is now relieved in retrospect that his brother is still alive.


DhangerShanger was saying: It depends on whether there's actually an infinite amount of them;In about 99% of all fiction stories, this can be assumed.

Multiverse = infinite number of parallel universes

On page 11 it is stated that the Vargas have visited more than 5 trillion universes. (Sure, a random number may have been chosen at the time, just as a gag to show the sheer magnitude of the multiverse). Nevertheless, in DBM the infinite parallel universes principle applies.

Are we all forgetting that the Vargas have used two sets of dragonballs for the resurrection wishes? Even if XXI got his hands on the set they pull out next will he find a way to obtain the U1 dragonballs because it's clear that any other set won't grant universal travel?

XXI either isn't sharing all his memories or next page we'll get an explanation why he can't just use his Dragon to make them immortal.

Also Raditz probably took their only brain cell when he left or they'd realize that:
Famished beast + comes from an empty universe + wants multiversal travel = Wants to devour all realities, including theirs.

I have yet to see anyone declare a way for Goku to win against XXI if XXI instantly teleports him really far away like Babidi did at the start of the Majin arc. He wouldn't make it back before the 30 second countdown.

And XXI could make sure of it by teleporting him into toxic gas (like Babidi again) or in the vacuum (like Bra did to Gohan).

Burner283828 was saying: MrPerson0 was saying: Okay, now I'm really invested. Would be wild if he gave U13 Vegeta and Kakarot the potaras so they could fuse into an evil Vegito, which will cause the vision Bardock saw back then?
Page 418 and Page 731. Bra specifically refers to the attacking Vegetto as her father. I guess a Vegetto that's immortal could maybe explain why Bra doubles down on him being unstoppable. Her insistence has been confusing me after everything. I know technically that if Vegetto was on guard and efficient/brutal like Majin Bra he would still be a catastrophic threat, but after all his losses to magic and the somewhat obvious idea of super saiyan normal fusion, it kind of makes Bra in these visions seem idiotic. Perhaps these are parts of the visions Salagir regrets, as unless Vegetto actually gets an upgrade before his heel turn I feel Bra will be mocked when these visions come to pass.

Isn't that easily solved by XXI removing the original Vegetto (he already teleported him once, got character assassinated eating that bean with who knows what side effects and seemingly has an evil Vargas on his side that could just send him back) and then fusing these two to create an evil Vegetto. They'd look the same so if he doesn't tell anyone it's a different Vegetto Bra would refer to him as "dad"

Okay, now I'm really invested. Would be wild if he gave U13 Vegeta and Kakarot the potaras so they could fuse into an evil Vegito, which will cause the vision Bardock saw back then?

Immortality and advanced healing is what they should want. That and Legendary Super Saiyan power minus the berserker rage. Maybe an immunity to that black goop that the tech warriors use too just in case. Not sure what else could beat that.

3) I wonder if Vegettos fusion and subsequent ‘snap’ is linked to OG Goku’s personality. Goku’s clearly naturally crazy, and only in our Universe was he different (from hitting his head). I think the fusion of the two retapped that old part of himself, and is lending to his unpredictability we’ve seen — and will see — displayed.

This doesn't make any sense, it's already been established that multiverse travel is a special meta fanfic power that only U1 has and surely XXI with his oracle guy knows this. And the plan to make a distraction and steal the wish is so half-assed and U13 is such a weird universe to ask. Where the heck is XXI going with this?

For anyone confused on going to other universes, BuU can do it with ease. In fact Bulma was doing it and didn't even know it and he has Bulma inside him. He is wishing to be able to do it at will, not at the hope the technology works good enough.