A lot of you are breaking rule #13 at this point! Please refrain from second guessing what exactly Salagir has in mind, you can't read his thoughts.

For example things like:

"Salagir is obviously burned out at this point, he's not motivated anymore; Salagir won't treat Goku with respect anymore in the future; that's it, DBM is over" and stuff like that.
Discuss, but in a friendly manner, without getting insulting. This is still Salagir's comic. Frankly, he doesn't owe anybody here anything, he can still do whatever he wants with his own story, wether you like it or absolutely disagree with it.

I'd honestly suggest that some people may take a break from DBM to cool off a little bit, because some of you are getting a little bit too heated and emotional over all of this, even to the point, where you seem to lose all objectivity. Maybe do something else that you actually enjoy and come back at a later time. Even if you may be disappointed, this is not the end of the world, life goes on.

And before you answer this comment, please keep rule #1 in mind. Thank you!

AnyEdge was saying: DB Tyrant was saying: I thought you couldn't kill in this??

I literally just read this page, and I was wondering the same thing. I could have sworn that was the case, but when I go back to page 17, the only losing conditions mentioned are: giving up, or a thirty second count out.
Page 72 literally says... You lose if: you're unconscious (for 30 seconds) or dead.

Please tell me you're joking? Bojack killing Pan?? I know it's been a while, but c'mon. How can people forget about this?

Uub killing Tidar, Krillin killing Sauza, Son Bra killing Zangya, U13 Vegeta killing Syd, Gast killing Cell Jr. Cell killing Bojack, Raichi killing U13 Vegeta, U18 Vegeta basically "killing" U13 Kakarotto, Cell killing Tapion, Gast "killing" Raichi and U18 Vegeta killing Cell.

You can't seriously tell me you forgot about all of this? Sometimes I really do wonder if I'm reading a totally different comic than other people here...

This was the only way this fight was ever going to end. The comments huffing straight cope pretending Goku had a chance in hell. The only individual that could possibly stand up to XXI in a fair fight was Gast. This was the only outcome, near instant victory. The final fight was never the ending of this story, its the fallout. This is only the beginning.

MUI was saying: I dont like this. Very out of character how the writers portray Trunks here. Trunks is not like Goku and Vegeta to play with his opponents like he is doing here. Like why the heck is he still in his SSJ form? He literally said this about Goku when he was SSJ2 instead of SSJB against Black’s first encounter. Trunks is the guy that goes immideately for the kill, he should have gone SSJ rage the moment this fight started and killed off Black.

Yes, it's completely out of character for Trunks to pretend to be weaker than he is and hold back to bait an enemy out. It's so unthinkable for Trunks to play it smart, he's never done anything intelligent before!

Yea Gast is smoking him, without the Frost Demons DNA he should be around SSJ grade 2 AT BEST (probably lmao)

All the guys about phones: why are you so worked up? This is Toriyama's technology. The cyborgs are just human people who are super powerful. They aren't computers (A16 is, that's why he has a energy detector). Actually, I gave them more "computer powers" than Toriyama ever did: they can detect IMPs, and Spoiler, click to showGero did backups of himself (revelation in a few pages).

Rey Vegeta was saying: Just imagine Dr. Gero is the good guy and the resistance are the evil ones. Gast just doesn't know it
That's why he checked. Remember page 2434?
It's good to check on things that matter.

MUI was saying: Ellie was saying: MUI was saying: Lot of possibilities how they actually were not dumb and defeated Broly. One of them:

1. Using Porunga to wish for the potara earrings.

2. Gogeta not playing around, going for the kill and checking if he is actually really dead.

Idk how else they defeat him, since he is way out of their league. Fusion is the only way they can kill him.

utilizing buu more probably having him absorb gogeta. we already know from the official story that gogeta is MUCH stronger than lolvegito.

Dont agree about Gogeta beeing stronger then Vegito. Toriyama literraly stated Gogeta and Vegito are equal in strength. For me its also the safest way to compare their powers.

Point is that Gogeta at this point in time would be stronger, because Goku and Vegeta are. Majin Buu Saga duo doesn't compare to their counterparts in this age, especially after training in Other world.

MUI was saying: Lot of possibilities how they actually were not dumb and defeated Broly. One of them:

1. Using Porunga to wish for the potara earrings.

2. Gogeta not playing around, going for the kill and checking if he is actually really dead.

Idk how else they defeat him, since he is way out of their league. Fusion is the only way they can kill him.

utilizing buu more probably having him absorb gogeta. we already know from the official story that gogeta is MUCH stronger than lolvegito.

Is there any reason XXI couldn't simply teleport Goku super far away like Babidi did at the start of the Majin arc? There would be no dimension to break out of and he wouldn't return in 30 seconds, if at all.

Pryomnicom was saying: Asturios was saying: I'm calling it, Gast is going to be saved somehow. That last panel and bubble is either to hype the terror or to be contradicted in the following page. I hope I'm wrong though, I really want someone to die, I want to feel the stakes of the next XII fight popping off. My only worry is that we might run into a Madara situation where only a deus ex can save the good guys. So, maybe this is a good chance to show XXI isn't as unstoppable as he think he is

There's a bardock vision of Bra and Vegeta we haven't seen yet. If Gast dies here I'm not sure he'd be resurrected before the end of the tournament if HE COULD be resurrected.
If XXI is caught out he's going to go nuclear which also gives no time for Gast resurrection. Currently I still don't believe Gast is losing here.
Well ghast has to not exists for vegito to go rampage I think.

Andy was saying: I honestly never thought of XXI having a dragonball. I assumed that stone is a crystal that he uses to oberve the battle outside.

XXI is probably the evil itself, but he is also a coward as he wouldn't rely on hin own comptence, but rather cheating through the tournament.
Even if so, who is he talking to then the whole time in his apartment, asking for the quickest way to beat his opponents (page 993, page 2110)? Is it just coincidence, that the being in the shadows he's talking to in his apartment, is shaped like a dragon (like I already showed in my previous comments)?


Also this is written in the novel about XXI, I thought it's pretty interesting and kinda fitting to what you said:

Spoiler, click to showOh yes, the Elder Kaioshin knew the being called XXI. He, or it, was a being, terrible and monstrous, that threatened all life in the universe—even death itself! XXI was a being so vile, anywhere it passed it completely superseded any concepts of good and evil—in its wake was left no chaos, no unhappiness, but rather...nothing at all. Neither was there matter nor spirit, nor any hope whatsoever...

And I wouldn't necessarily call XXI cheating his way through the tournament. It's kind of funny tbh, most readers always want characters to act super smart in DB, which is exactly what XXI does, and when someone actually does it, they complain it's cheating. ^^

You might call it unfair or not sportsman's like (just like Vegetto thinks all magicians are unfair lol), yet he acts very intelligent to ensure he doesn't show too much of his power, while still getting a safe win. Gast is the first one to break that cycle and even now he made sure that no one else from the outside could observe what he does with Gast at the moment. And XXI has never broken any rules so far. He always prepared for his fights, which is not forbidden.

But I agree on your point that he is a coward. That's also mentioned somewhere in the novel, though I didn't found that part on the fly right now.

MUI was saying: Nope, XXI doesnt have dragonballs with him.
Are you sure about that? Page 1516 clearly shows him holding a Dragon Ball in his hand, that got turned to stone.

Also, the first panel on page 2110 clearly shows the shape of a dragon. I'll put this in a spoiler tag, just to be sure:

I always assumed that its Gast wish he is after to get unfused and he cant do that simply because there are no dragon balls in his universe... and XXI has dragon balls at his disposal - zen buu was even more powerful (defeated Gast after all) and still got locked in the cocoon - seemed like XXI wasnt too worried about him nor Vegito - but now he gives Gast special treating for some reason... also - imo - unfusing Gast felt like a nice closing of his story here if its really what he was after - since he is too powerful to follow our heroes to the after tournament arc.. I wasn't expecting XXI to suddenly just shift like that and turn to fist fight - but its a good fight - I am curious to see how it ends :)

MUI was saying: Luke was saying: I was about to ask - why is XXI even fighting instead of using a trick to win like he always did... especially because Gast has a weakness to be exploited that could remove him from competition (getting unfused) but if XXI wants to consume him I guess it makes sense - Gast is one the most powerful being here - whatever sort of absorption this is its most likely for XXI benefit at this point - why didn't XXI consumed Vegito though? was he not worth the risk and effort? or is it the magic he is after not strength?

Most likely unfusing Gast goes beyond XXI’s magic capibilities (he couldnt’t use Zen Buu’s dark world lightning either). And Gast is resistant to almost every magic (confirmed by Zen Buu), so he has to defeat him with raw strength.

XXI didnt try to consume Zen Buu and Vegito most likely because these two are way beyond XXI’s power.

I was about to ask - why is XXI even fighting instead of using a trick to win like he always did... especially because Gast has a weakness to be exploited that could remove him from competition (getting unfused) but if XXI wants to consume him I guess it makes sense - Gast is one the most powerful being here - whatever sort of absorption this is its most likely for XXI benefit at this point - why didn't XXI consumed Vegito though? was he not worth the risk and effort? or is it the magic he is after not strength?

It's a pity we don't get a good fight of Buu & XXI like this

I hope Vegeta appears when its all said and done, sees ghast and how strong he is then vows to get stronger

Evil Santa, checking his naughty list. Guess Cell simply needs to absorb any 2 cyborgs to become complete and not #17 and #18 specifically. Interesting.

clearly arale will release buu.

she will add her apple juice to his pod, and that will unleash the kraken.



MUI was saying: Salagir was saying: 瘦布欧 was saying: They are "Androids", why they have to talk to each other verbally thru mouth instead of communicating electronically. And Gero had to read his mail from a computer screen
In short: because DBZ is Space-Opera, not Science-Fiction.

MUI was saying: Vegeta likely wont be seen until he is majinized by Babadi.
Several of you seem very sure that Vegeta will be majinized, and I wonder why. Did someone say something I don't know about ?

kkk was saying: I don't recall Gast being a representative of the council of Icarion
Things happen between specials. For example, in page 2418 i show that Gast and Thorn visited many places and obviously got in troubles many times.
And anyway... how could Gero check ? ;p

Well about the Vegeta part: Its just a theory I really like. You need very powerful energy to release Buu, and since Gast most likely will kill the cyborgs and Cell, which strong fighters are left in the universe to release Buu besides Vegeta and Gast? Vegeta didn’t redeem in this universe so even more reason for him to be majinezed, challenge Gast in his SSJ2 and voila: Buu is released.

Atleast I hope you make this true Salagr :p

don't say that!

salagir always changes his story to spite people! remember what happened to king4? he had it all figured out, and then BAM! salagir changed the story in the span of 3 seconds before the page launched and kakarotto was made immortal, and the story shifted from there...

all kidding aside, I can see both sides beign true, just try to keep in mind the aspect of the "infinite universes" aspect. there is a universe where vegeta is majinized, and 1 where he isn't, and 999087.6 where some rando thing happened.

in short, anything can happen

瘦布欧 was saying: They are "Androids", why they have to talk to each other verbally thru mouth instead of communicating electronically. And Gero had to read his mail from a computer screen
In short: because DBZ is Space-Opera, not Science-Fiction.

MUI was saying: Vegeta likely wont be seen until he is majinized by Babadi.
Several of you seem very sure that Vegeta will be majinized, and I wonder why. Did someone say something I don't know about ?

kkk was saying: I don't recall Gast being a representative of the council of Icarion
Things happen between specials. For example, in page 2418 i show that Gast and Thorn visited many places and obviously got in troubles many times.
And anyway... how could Gero check ? ;p

Females was saying: I wanted to know what the lie was

I think the lie was, that one android was killed once, but it wasn't by the warriors she showed them. Likely it was android 19.

MUI was saying: Super Gojita 3 was saying: if they did kill an android, I wonder if it was 19?

ssj vegeta lives, or "lived" in this universe, so a ssj vegeta beat down on 19 could be possible. then well, vegeta got overconfident and died. and maybe gero did finish off a weak energy drained vegeta.

Nah, Vegeta likely wont be seen until he is majinized by Babadi. Most likely at some point in U7 Gast fought SSJ2 Majin Vegeta, thus beeing the reason how U7 Buu was released. I cant think of any other possible scenario how Babadi got enough energy in this universe to release Buu. Dabura would get one shotted by Gast and Vegeta in his SSJ2 should be the only possible fighter to give Gast some trouble.

I mean, it could be both or even neither.

vegeta dying is possible, suppose babadi revived buu without any saiyans? or a single android escaped from gasts wrath, it had infinite energy, and it was majinized by babadi, and drained, like dabura.

lots of variables here. it doesn't have to happen like in canon.

cui, for example didn't show up on namek in freezas universe, because no vegeta means no cui. as to why vegeta would have a beef with gast, well, lots of reasons but vegetas main beef in u18 was because goku was a saiyan like him, who had surpassed him, and saved his life blah blah blah.

a mere namek surpassing him could be motivation sure, but I don't know what this u7 vegetas motivation is. he certainly went ssj over it. I could see him wanting the majin seal for a power up, but he likely wouldn't be able to damage gast enough, even as a ssj2.

I dunno.

I'm just saiyan...babadi doesn't require vegeta to unleash buu, but he certainly can't be excluded from the variables just yet.

if they did kill an android, I wonder if it was 19?

ssj vegeta lives, or "lived" in this universe, so a ssj vegeta beat down on 19 could be possible. then well, vegeta got overconfident and died. and maybe gero did finish off a weak energy drained vegeta.

Thorn is naturally a pacifist so I understand he doesn’t want to start a war since his race are aliens known for peace and knowledge. However he should remember the androids attacking him and Gast without any sorts of provoking and Gast should stop his mistrust dead in its heels. Gast would be more trusting to the earthlings than Thorn. The earthlings are just strange to Thorn. But I wonder if it was android 19 they killed or a weaker model. We also don’t know Giran from dragonball power he could’ve still continued to train a lot of years had passed since early dragonball days I would highly doubt giran is still weaker than roshi. And this Krillin should be the strongest out of them and much stronger than his cell games lv self since this Krillin had to hide and train in discreet. Not having a relaxing life you have no choice but to continue to push passed your limits. Krillin was still able to kick one of the androids and move it. I would reckon Krillin is at least stronger than namek goku before he used super saiyan.

But who says Vegeta got SSJ before the androids? He was training like crazy in the present timeline because he knew they were coming.

Why did 19/20 appear instead of 17/18? Is it possible 19/20 were the first androids that appeared in all the universes? Were they the ones that appeared in West City in Trunks's universes too, then the Z-Fighters killed 19 as in the main timeline, then Dr Gero activated 17/18?

Zen Kuu was saying: Shabby was saying: it would have been, and still would be, cool to see the entire Z-Fighter cast (-dead, and Vegeta maybe) as an army of cyborgs.

A Saiyan Cyborg could be SPCell level. A couple of them could give Gast a little bit of trouble. Too bad Goku is stated to be dead.

Maybe that wouldn’t be the best idea. Remember A17 and a18 never really obeyed dr gero, and with goku dead, he doesn’t have the need to make overpowered androids, so maybe for him is better option making regular and easy to control humans. Saiyan android could be risky.

Or maybeee they do appear we never know

It might backfire on him, but he seems like the type to try.

Plus, it's the best way to give this special heart.

I'm sick of every non-cell Timeline just being depressing for Earth lol. Seeing any of the Saiyans power on and immediately rage blast Gero would be delicious.

DBM actively made the Mirai more depressing with emo-gohan.

I hate Mirai timelines so bad.

Damn, Gohan was Toriyama's golden child that was supposed to replace Goku. Sad to see him be such a disappointment in so many universes.

So, Goku's dead, Gohan's either dead or worse off, all the other Zed fighters are still dead because of no Dragon Balls. It's bleak.

Keep in mind at this point Gast has defeated A16 level opponent final form King Cold so these weaker cyborgs are not a threat to him. The absorption only stunned him as long as their hands were on his body.

gigachad moment

also surely gast is going to die, since this is his backstory prior to the tournament, in which he appeared dead

If it doesn't work on Piccolo, it wouldn't work on Gast.
Gast is pretending as always

No one should be able to oppose Gas power at this point unless it’s Cell. In Gas flashback a little time after he fused when he faced Cold Gas was sweating some what when he faced King Cold final form death ball and that form is held in regard to Androids 16 power lv. So I reckon Gas is in that gap between cell second form and final perfect cell after fusion but contiued to train and boost his power to beyond SSJ1 Vegito / Gohan Buu levels

Was just re-reading Ghast's specials lately, and something got me thinking: how strong would be a fused U16+U18 Piccolo be?

MUI was saying: I know this is a sad universe for U7 Z-fighters. But hey, atleast this universe doesnt end like U4, U8, U11, U14 or U17. This universe has Gast who already dealt with the frost demons, and now is going to take out the androids, Cell and Buu. Without Gast this universe would have been truly doomed. He is as much as the Z-fighters a superhero!

Without gast, this universe wouldn't have been doomed since it'd just be U18

I don't understand why Gast can't power them off of him tbh. Piccolo did it with Babidi and Vegito was able to isolate Buuhan. Also idk how Goku is gonna beat XXI now. He seems to have every counter to each fighter. I guess we are close then to when Vegito goes Beserk and where I'm guessing XXI is gonna try to make a horrible wish, but the Dragon Ball shard is gonna keep that from happening? So I'm guessing at this point, it's also obvious Goku WILL lose to XXI and that's when everything goes to shit

MUI was saying: DrewSaga was saying: Oh shit, Gast is in real danger! It's gonna be extremely hard to fight with glass shards covering you and these are magical shards that are preventing Gast from regenerating.

One thing is for certain I think and that's XXI going to the final round. Even if Gast manages to beat Janemba he is too messed up to fight XXI.

MUI was saying: If Gast cant even defeat Janemba he doesnt deserve a place in the finals. Goku going to be the hero to defeat XXI

Just to give an example. If SSJ Vegito fought Janemba he would defeat him just as easy as Gogeta did in M12, since Gogeta and Vegito are equals.

Idk if Goku could do a whole lot better. His only advantage would be that he has a grasp on how Janemba fights. Goku's speed and the way his SSJ0 form works will surely help.

Goku should be able to defeat Janemba imo. Goku got a lot stronger with his SSJ0, rivalling or even surpassing Mystic Gohan. And he know Janemba and his haxed abilities. Last time they fought Goku got defeated as a SSJ3 yes, but it wasnt a stomp. Janemba got the upper hand and Goku run out of stamina in the end. This time Goku is much stronger and wont run out of stamina either.

Well the issue is that if Goku fights Janemba, Janemba is certainly going to do some damage (hopefully not by this nasty attack) and a worn out Goku has to face a full powered XXI. The same problem Gast already has now. Except if Gast beats Janemba and loses to XXI, then XXI might have to face Goku without Janemba and that would be Goku's ticket to victory because I am sure that XXI used nearly all his best moves.

Gast Greatness was saying: As expected, Gast isn't walking away unscathed from Janemba's Lightning Shower Rain.

Since Janemba has shown a technique to dampen or nullify Gast's magic, then even if the possible Goku vs XII final happens, whatever magic Uub gives to Goku will be greatly diminished or cancelled outright (even if said magic was taught by Zen Buu).

I have no idea how such a battle would be written, without coming off as BS (then again, the BS will be right off the bat, since there will be a convenient reason why XII doesn't trap Goku in the Reverse Hyperbolic Time Chamber Dimension at the beginning, probably because it will be written as a one-time technique).

Still, Gast isn't out of this battle yet. Who knows, perhaps Gast has a hidden transformation up his sleeve.

If XXI is getting help from an eternal dragon (assuming his friend there is one), then it's not crazy to think what XXI did with Vegetto, #18 and Zen Buu were all one-time moves and XXI can't do that Inverse-HTC stunt on Goku.

Gast Greatness was saying: DrewSaga was saying: MUI was saying: DrewSaga was saying: Oh shit, Gast is in real danger! It's gonna be extremely hard to fight with glass shards covering you and these are magical shards that are preventing Gast from regenerating.

One thing is for certain I think and that's XXI going to the final round. Even if Gast manages to beat Janemba he is too messed up to fight XXI.

MUI was saying: If Gast cant even defeat Janemba he doesnt deserve a place in the finals. Goku going to be the hero to defeat XXI

Just to give an example. If SSJ Vegito fought Janemba he would defeat him just as easy as Gogeta did in M12, since Gogeta and Vegito are equals.

Idk if Goku could do a whole lot better. His only advantage would be that he has a grasp on how Janemba fights. Goku's speed and the way his SSJ0 form works will surely help.

Goku should be able to defeat Janemba imo. Goku got a lot stronger with his SSJ0, rivalling or even surpassing Mystic Gohan. And he know Janemba and his haxed abilities. Last time they fought Goku got defeated as a SSJ3 yes, but it wasnt a stomp. Janemba got the upper hand and Goku run out of stamina in the end. This time Goku is much stronger and wont run out of stamina either.

Well the issue is that if Goku fights Janemba, Janemba is certainly going to do some damage (hopefully not by this nasty attack) and a worn out Goku has to face a full powered XXI. The same problem Gast already has now. Except if Gast beats Janemba and loses to XXI, then XXI might have to face Goku without Janemba and that would be Goku's ticket to victory because I am sure that XXI used nearly all his best moves.

Oh shit, Gast is in real danger! It's gonna be extremely hard to fight with glass shards covering you and these are magical shards that are preventing Gast from regenerating.

One thing is for certain I think and that's XXI going to the final round. Even if Gast manages to beat Janemba he is too messed up to fight XXI.

MUI was saying: If Gast cant even defeat Janemba he doesnt deserve a place in the finals. Goku going to be the hero to defeat XXI

Just to give an example. If SSJ Vegito fought Janemba he would defeat him just as easy as Gogeta did in M12, since Gogeta and Vegito are equals.

Idk if Goku could do a whole lot better. His only advantage would be that he has a grasp on how Janemba fights. Goku's speed and the way his SSJ0 form works will surely help.

South_Ferry was saying: so ghast is slightly stronger than SSJ3 Goku?

I don't recall Goku Making Janemba look as mad as he has here for Ghast. Ghast is probably a good bit stronger than Goku; not to mention power levels like that are hard to estimate. Even if he's on par with a experienced SSJ3, he doesn't have the drawback energy drain, he has a good head on his shoulder for problem solving, he seems to be more direct when he attacks, and his regeneration is through the roof.

Janemba is a trickster demon for sure though so it may not be an issue with power levels so much as an issue with Janemba's bizarre fighting abilities.

Besides, shock, awe and a higher power doesn't equate to being beat right?
Ghast was just as shocked at the techniques Hacthiyak pulled out and looked just as banged up, but he still pulled out a win.

zero logic was saying: Super Gojita 3 was saying: Marc of The Endless was saying: See a lot of people saying SSJ3 Goku was matching or even overwhelming Super Janemba, this is not the case whatsoever. Before even creating the Dimensional Sword, we see Goku is injured and being pushed back by Janemba. Once he grabs the sword, the fight is essentially over and Goku can only run/evade until he is saved by Vegeta. All of this without even powering up, which Janemba only does in response to Gogeta's appearance. Also, SSJ3 Goku is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks and Mystic Gohan in Toeiland, he showcases this versus Hirudegarn after Hirudegarn stomps Gotenks and Gohan. They would not defeat Janemba either, according to the movie timeline's power scaling.

DBM has the liberty to do whatever with the character, especially since Gast is fanmade and his own powers have no real consistency besides "strong." There's also the fact that Salagir has soft retconned his own scaling many times before. However strong he ends up being here, it won't have anything to do with his strength in the film. Broly being as stupid as he was in this should've clued everyone into that, honestly.

I recommend you rewatch that fight.

ssj3 goku was gaining the edge slowly as the fight went on, when it was hand to hand without any dimensional warping.

when janemba did use his powers, thats when he got the upper hand.

brute force wise, goku was winning, but thats not what determined the outcome.
Is kinda the opposite. Goku starts off strong and has the upper hand, then Janemba uses teleport and lands a ki blast then the mouth blast catches Goku off guard. Then is sword time aka GG. Even without the sword, the abilities pushed Janemba over Goku. He also didn't use his other special attacks like the shattered glass thingy

if you watch the movie, goku was somewhat even with janemba.

now, the movie doesn't indicate goku would win, and perhaps I as exagerating a bit, but goku wasn't exactly losing.

and janemba could have won too, but it wasn't as 1 sided as people like to think. the fight had gone on a bit by then and janemba decided to stop using mere brute force and used his powers. the only "toying with" is on account of not using his powers at the start.

I'm referring to brute force specifically, not the hax abilities.

in a straight up fight it was near even, using all ofjanembas powers, janemba wins, but, not if goku calls janemba a bad word, I guess, tapping into his other weakpoints.

seriously, janemba has all kinds of exploits to use, which even ssj2 vegeta exploited. he used his own warp holes to his advantage after all!

And thats not taking into account just a mere insult janemba is so weak mentally, insults put cracks in his body and stun lock him. goku could just call him a big dummy and weaken him, and then attack him for real.