Dragon Ball Multiverse

> With respest to Salagir and Parudylove
Yes at age 4 pan is stronger than gohan but soon after Gohan becomes much stronger and easily stronger than pan at every age. At certain points Tien is stronger than gohan, gohan comments " wow i don't think even i could do that" after Tien held off cell and also states that Tien is strong. At base level before gohan goes into the chamber Tien is stronger but Goahn can deliver stronger one off blasts like against frieza, Tien holds his own against trunks before he goes ssj and do u really think pan could defend against his Tri Beam?

Excactly! I cant beleave people are even comparing the two.

>Yo

When Tensinhan holds off cell, Goku, Gohan, and Mr. Popo all say he's going to kill himself if he doesn't stop his reckless attacks, and he sure came close to it. That hardly comes to say that he is stronger than Cell, or Gohan for that matter. Also, I don't think Gohan ever says "I don't think even I could do that". I believe the exact dialogue is "I was worried too, but thanks to Tensinhan-san, I'm glad we managed it without Android 18 being absorbed by Cell(本当、僕も心配しました。でも天 津飯さんのおかげで十八号がセルに� �収されずにすんで好かったですね)" And Goku also warns Tensinhan "But Tensinhan, don't try anything reckless(それにしても天津飯、お前無茶するな)" Tensinhan does hold off Cell but it wasn't for long, and he almost died JUST from the recoil damage of his own attack(like he usually does). The only reason Gohan wasn't out there holding off Cell was that Goku was preventing him from doing so.

And...Gohan did surprise Freeza,(I don't know if this was in the manga too), but he blew several punches and ki attacks in a fit of rage, and Freeza, while unaffected, praised him of his unusual strength. The fact that later Tensinhan(and other earthlings) doesn't even try to train in the Room of Spirit and Time tells that he well knows his limits and probably won't be great help during Cell game, meaning his powers are far below that of Saiyajins or even Piccolo.

And Tensinhan holding against Trunks...I believe that was in the ninth movie (the one with Bojack), and we all know that DB movies have nothing to do with anime or manga canon(except of course Trunks and Burdock specials, but those aren't really movies, they are OVAs, and the fifth movie, which was actually included in the offical timeline), and although that movie in particular can actually fit in the timeline between Cell arc and Majin Buu arc, I don't think it was included in the official timeline of events in DB Daizenshu. Unless, of course, you've been talking about THAT Tensinhan specifically, and not the manga(or anime) one....

As to your last question, I actually belive Tensinhan's kikoho is effective against Pan, as I believe she is weaker than imperfect Cell, but she really doesn't have to do anything; all she needs to do is just endure it for awhile (I'd give a minute at the most) because after few blows he will just end up miserably killing himself, again, like he usually does. I don't know why he doesn't come up with any new techinique, after training himself like a madman for countless years. Now I'm starting to think Dragonball GT actually stands for Ganbare Tensinhan.

Krillen has been stated by Yamcha and Toriyama himself to be the strongest human. Meaning Tien is below him.

Also, the reason Roshi can still fight while old is because he's immortal.
Also, the Shin-Kikoho is an attack that wields the user's lifeforce, in addition to their ki, as a weapon. That is why Tien is able to hold cell back with it.

Saying Tien is stronger than someone based on that is like saying Krillen is stronger than someone based on the kienzan (which cuts through ANYTHING, Cell taking it to the neck did not happen in the manga).

Well demon ghost hunter. The show is not canon. Gt was all speculative. Therefore, Pan's growth canonically stopped at age 4, so it was possible she could go ssj, we just never saw it. Going to your first question. Pan flying at four years old show how much potential she has. Even though everyone can fly with Ki, I'm assuming you need some level of ki first, so if she could fly at four, she would need a lot of power.

And for the sake of argument lets use gt as the base. According to Gt, Goku although weaker in his child (for those who think goku is the same strength at his child form, think logically. If you were as strong in a child's body than, in a adult's body Physical maturation is obsolete. Yes Saiyans are aliens, but they follow similar laws to humans, evident in thier ability to mate with humans.)He can keep up with both of his sons as ssj1 at base form, which is seen in the baby arc. I don't care how strong goku has gotten and how lax gohan and goten are, there is no way possible Goku was able to fight a super saiyan without going super saiyan himself in that short of a period. Also he was owning Cell and Freiza. I know Goku is stronger than both at this time, but how does logically defeat someone of super saiyan 2 calibur at base form. Next, lets go with super 17. Majuub and Vegeta have no effect on him whatsoever, but ssj goku is able to fight him. Majuub was able to fight and fluster ssj2 baby vegeta , while goku was get the stuff beat out of him before turning ssj 4. So you are saying that Majuub can take on someone stronger than goku in one fight, but in the next fight someone weaker than him can do damage? As you can see, DBGT was one giant loop, and shouldn't be seriously considered as an accurate source as it is 1) a contradiction and 2) Toriyama was not directly affialiated with it. In reality, I just see gt as one expensive what if after story.

>Ukeru

I agree with you generally, but Toriyama did come up with the plot of the early part of the series (Goku turning into a child and going around the universe to find dragonballs), and character designs and concepts. Although he was not actively involved with the project, the studio considers it canon, he considers it canon, therefore we fans should probably consider it canon too, no matter how inaccurate it is. Countless contradictions and errors exist in DB and DBZ series too, and I'm not saying that this justifies for more inaccuracy, but that it's not right for us to reject what's considered the official sequel just because we see some errors we don't like.

> parudylove
i suggest u watch the series again, gohan DOES say he didnt think he could do what tien did so watch that part again and get back to me, i never said tien could beat cell, and ur right about the movies but i belive they were still using relative accurate power levels. And finally yamcha's opinion doesnt count, how is krillin stronger?, theres no possible reason why he would surpass tien, tien defeated jiece and burter while krillin was defeated by recoome with one kick, i know tien beating the ginyu goofs wasnt in the manga but it was put in the anime to give a general idea how strong tien and yamcha had become on king kai's planet.

かめはめ波
Do you know how whether to read by this?
This is Japanese "Kamehameha".

> yo: And finally yamcha's opinion doesnt count, how is krillin stronger?, theres no possible reason why he would surpass tien, tien defeated jiece and burter while krillin was defeated by recoome with one kick, i know tien beating the ginyu goofs wasnt in the manga but it was put in the anime to give a general idea how strong tien and yamcha had become on king kai's planet.

Well, you should not rely on that. I mean, they didn't even learn the Kaioken (at least they never showed it).
Just think about it. When the Saiyans got to earth, all humans were "about the same" powerlevel (of course with Tenshinhan being stronger than Kuririn).
Then they died and went to Kaio-Sama's planet. But they are just humans and could just have the same training as Goku (even only 10x gravity).
I mean, while powerlevels really are inaccurate in the show, they never could have gotten stronger than the Ginyu Force in that amount of time.

It's just a filler, made for fun purposes, we shouldn't think of it as an evidence that Tenshinhan is stronger than Burta and Jeice. Then Yamcha would be stronger than Recoome - and really, that would make him stronger than Vegeta on Namek after his Zenkai powerups from earth and the beating by Zarbon! Think about that.

>Salagir

As I said, Pan seizing Dr. Gero immobile, defeating one of the Sigma Canon henchmen, blasting Kamehameha to stop 6th Shenron's tornado wall would tell you enough about Pan's power. And that scene about Trunks...well, it's one of many GT scenes that fans make mockery of. Need I say more. If you're looking for logic in this series (not just GT but the whole goddamned series), you'll have to start wondering why in the hell the earth wasn't blown into pieces whenever they fought, considering Muten Roshi destroyed the moon with his power level being around 150ish(I forgot the exact number...anyone who has Daizenshu please correct me).

>yo

With all due and respect, I suggest YOU watch the series again, because I wrote that after checking that particular episode again. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what you're talking about is either from Ocean's dub or FUNimation dub, and I know a lot of times they change dialogues for some unknown reason (exactly why I don't watch dubbed episodes). Your estimation of power levels being relatively accurate? You're not giving me enough reason to be convinced.

And as for Krillin being stronger then Tensinhan...Toriyama himself said, in an interview with Nozawa Masako(Goku's voice actor) and Koyama Takao(one of DBZ anime writers) that Krillin is the strongest human being on earth.

Salagir has a point.

So, whilst we are reading, remember two things

Number One: Toei's scenarist's never went to school
Number Two: Dragon Ball GT makes as much sence as walruses falling from the sky singing the Yugoslavian amthem in German

Pan vs Tien

Ok, lets see. It is safe to assume that Pan has had around ten years of training since we saw her fighting at the world tournament. She would have had training from her parents, her grandparents, her uncle and possibly most other Z-Fighters. Which means she had 10 years more experience in combat than the Pan of...Gt... She is above (I believe?) the age when Gohan turned Super Saiyan, way older than the time when Goten turned Super Saiyan. Think of how strong Goten and Trunks were at there age- 5 and 6, I believe. So she should be extremely powerfull.

Lets just face facts, we have no idea how strong this Pan is. So until she gets a fight, we'll probably be able to assume what level of power she is at- thus working out if she is stronger than Tien.

>Super Namekian

Now now....don't be so cruel to those poor writers :D They did amazingly well (although I think I'm alone in the world with this crazy idea)....Okay, okay, but you gotta give that they did better than mediocre (somewhat). Remember how Burdock was created? The wrtiers first come up with the plot of Burdock special OVA and Toriyama, so impressed by the story, added Burdock to his manga in honor. They are capable of doing some good for the world once in a while..:D

And GT making as much sense as walruses falling from the sky singing the Yugoslavian amthem in German, that cracked me up, because sadly, I agree with you. But really, if you think about it, it applies to the whole series, which is what got me so addicted to it in the first place. God, I need to find something better to do with my life other than being obsessed with a comic that ended more than 13 years ago...:P

This Tien thingy got pretty complicated here xD

>parudylove

Although, it is true Toriyama did draw characters etc... I can not confirm the claim of Toriyama said Gt was canon. He sold his rights so Toei could continue. And Sellings rights =/= a sequel.

As for contradictions, I won't doubt that one contradiction/ unexplained thing was why Goten and Trunks didn't have tails, when gohan did. However, the manga is a better source than the anime.

>parudylove

> Salagir: Tien against Trunks in Bojack movie made me laugh. Almost as much as Krilin trying not to fall, grabbing the ring, when he is supposed to fly...
I like Krilin and like to think he is better than Tenshinan since saiyens saga. I may be wrong but that's not so important. The thing is, seeing Krilin being hurt by falling humans while not flying, and in the same scene, Tenshinan so strong he forces a very powerfull half saiyen to turn SSJ... Just remind me how Toei's scenarist are my nemesis.

I always thought that Trunks just turned SSJ because Tenshinhan wanted him to be serious and he didn't want Tenshinhan to think he looked down on him and took it easy. (And of course as a SSJ he only needed one punch)
As for Kuririn: You may be wrong (just like me), but according to the manga and the anime - ignoring that one fun filler with the ginyu force at Kaio-Sama's planet - you can pretty well think that.
There is no evidence given that Tenshinhan is stronger than Kuririn.

As for GT: I cracked myself up when that soooo strong Goku (base > Vegeta SSJ) needed to go SSJ4 to lift a building :D


> parudylove
You're absolutely right, DB and DBZ are illogical as well. But really, I think GT just messed up SO MUCH and SO MANY SPECIFIC THINGS. That is the reason, I don't like it as much.
For some comical elements, GT is fine as well as for some fights - but the overall presentation is just TOO messed up even for DB.
And then these short sagas and cut-off coming-out-of-nowhere ending because they didn't get as much money as they wanted... :(
But I think, everyone should decide for themselves whether they consider it canon or not (I won't do it).

As for GT = canon:
After the manga had been finished and Toriyama had sold the rights to Toei (like Ukeru said), I think, he didn't care much any more.
GT just wasn't his series - sure, he drew something or took a look here and there, but overall it is Toei's work, while Toriyama still earned some money with that.
So why would he bother to say that GT was crap or something. He just didn't mind it.

>parudylove
Yeah but it was stated already in one of the daizenshuu if you know what that is,that tenshinhan is a decendant of the three eyed people,now that is no mistake beacause akira supervised that book,it is prety debatable if he is a human or not.

>Ukeru, nick

I don't have interview that Toriyama downright says "GT is canon" per se, but I conder GT canon, at least an anime canon(I think the differences between DB manga and anime is big enough to set them as two different things) It's sort of like debating wheather YGO GX or 5d's series are canon, the differences being Takahashi later did supervision of GX manga while there never was any manga adaptation of GT. Or debating whether Slayers Revolution is canon, although I think no one would agree it is=_=. I guess it's just different way of seeing it, and there is no doubt that the studio considers it an official sequel, it fits the timeline, unlike DBZ movies, and after all, Toriyama came up with the idea the beginning of the series. We'll see more clearly what Toriyama thinks of GT when DBZ online comes out (I think it's going to open beta sometime this summer in Korea...hee:D) because his studio has been working on it for quite a long time under his supervision, storys and designs and all, and if GT is included in the timeline of events...then I guess that would might a difference. Or not. I am in no position to pursue you into changing your opinions as I respect them, but it just makes me sad whenever I see DBGT get so underrated and even considered a trash by DB fans. :(

DB and DBZ had many screwed up things in specific too, partly due to Toriyama's way of writing his comic because he tends to not plot ahead and likes to see himself find out what's going to happen next as he draws. For example, I'm sure you already know this because it's so big that you can't miss it, and even Toriyama confirmed that they are plot holes in his interviews, 1)Cell game should've ended right when Goku blew Cell's upper body away, as Cell points out he needs his brain to regenerate. When he regenerated, his body started forming itself from the lower half of the body. Unless he's got another brain buried down there too....:P 2)The maximum number of people allowed in Room of Spirit and Time is 2, but somehow miraculously Piccolo and Buu can all enter the room while Goten and Trunks are in there. I could go on, but as I said, I know this doesn't justify errors in GT.

I can give you the answer about the one about Goten and Trunks not having a tail, Toriyama said in one of his interviews that it was because of the effect of the recessive gene (I don't know if that actually makes sense).


>Demonghosthunter

I think I stumbled across an article that said that, but I can't be sure. It is definitely debatable. But that alone doesn't explain enough about his power, as we don't have any details of his possible ascendents, like we do with saiyajin race.

>Parudylove

Yeah dragonball online. I've heard of that. That's actually more of a sequel than gt was. Gt never exists in that timeline and since Toriyama has the creative license, so that's going to be as canon as anything will get.

As for Buu and Piccolo in the room of plot and device (that's my term for the room of spirit and time) That was in the anime. I don't remember seeing the in the manga.
Yeah, I agree Toriyama is the king random crack storylines (one of biggest ones was when raditz came to earth, but things flowed better and things weren't so inproportionate.

Anyway, yes I heard that answer too, but the real reason is Toriyama forgot about the tails thing. Trunks and goten would have had tails, because all saiyans had tails and that gene would be dominate the no tail gene, but fans could always they had their tails removed, if they wanted to.

>Demonghosthunter
I think that was something a fan made up. Since dragonball had many references to religions and ancient stories etc... I think Tien had three eyes due to his enlightenment status, which is a reference to buddisim. I'm not sure if that's a fact, but that would make since considering how dragonball worked. Also, that would explain it since aliens weren't really mentioned until DBZ.

>Ukeru

It happened in the manga too. That was the whole plan of Piccolo to keep Majin Buu in the chamber. The only difference is that the anime dragged the fight scene ridicuously longer.

And yes, Toriyama tends to forget the details of his own goddamned comic. Talk about poor Lunch....

dbgt was an abomination and after watching the series i dismissed it.
> parudylove, salagir, nick and others
the series i have gohan does say exactly what i said and yes Tiens tri beam didn't affect cell but to hold him off even for a while would have taken considerable power. When nappa and vegeta arrived Tien was stronger than krillin everyone knows that so what would have prompted krillin to surpass him?, Tien also trained with king kai. And i believe yes the ginyu vs z fighters filler was intentional to show the increased power of the earthlings, they started thier training when thier power was above 1,000 so i beleive its not ridiculous that they became strong enough to defeat the ginyu force. Piccolo was suprised how thier power increased from the "stupid training" before he was sent to namek. To strengthen this theory the earthlings increased thier power from 177, 206 and 250 to well over 1,000 each just from kami's training in a short time, king kais training would have boosted thier power easily high enough to defeat the ginyu force.

>Yo

The only problem with that is that Goku had to training way beyond 10x earth's gravity to achieve his level of power. Yes, I agree they would have gotten much stronger, but stronger than vegeta? C'mon he had troubles with the Ginyu force, and to say those humans could reach his level of power in that time is an insult. However, your theory could be correct since after the saiyan saga humans were only punching bags. So who knows? Anyway, wheter Krillin is stronger is irrelevant, Uub has been the strongest human since he was 10 years old.

>ukeru
yes because uub is the reincarnation of buu so maybe he doesnt count. Whats so hard to believe about the earthings beating the ginyu force and being stronger than vegeta when he was fighting recoome? vegeta never trained with king kai and the average saiyan isnt that strong, the earthlings surpassed raditz in just one year after goku was out matched by him, get it?

>yo

As I've told you before, the English dub(I'm guessing what you have is FUNimatoin dub, with those god awful translations) is not faithful to the original dialogue.

vegeta never trained with king kai and the average saiyan isnt that strong

Vegeta is NOT an average saiyajin. He already surpassed his father's power at the age of five. That's why he has ridicuously (and sometimes very annoying) high self-esteem and talks about his so called "elite" background whenever he gets a chance.

even so im just saying the fact tien and the others could surpass raditz so quickly after goku couldnt beat him means they became a lot stronger while training under king kai than people think. U forget he increased his power from 250 to nearly 2,000 is just a year so at that rate and on multiple levels of earth's gravity its accurate when he defeats jiece and burter
>

Tien never even got close to the million mark, ever, so he'd stand no chance against Pan.

>I agree with you generally, but Toriyama did come up with the plot of the early part of the series (Goku turning into a child and going around the universe to find dragonballs), and character designs and concepts.

Toriyama did very very very little for GT and he didn't design anyone. Character designs were handled by his assistant, Nakatsuru.

Demonghosthunter: It says he's 'descened of the three eyed tribe' but gives no hints as to how long ago this was (he could be in the 50th or 1,000th or 90,000,000th generation) and then there's the fact it was never remotely mentioned in the series.

Toriyama had almost no inolvement in the Daizenshuu books. His staff put them together and he just wrote a pre-face for it and said "ok, publish it." and that's it.

> Yo

True, Vegeta never trained at king kai's. However, did we forget that Planet Vegeta was 10x earth's gravity? Although it was destroyed when vegeta was young the effects still remained for a while. Also, we don't know about the other planets vegeta trained in etc.. Potentially, all those planets had high gravity than earth. This would explain why Vegeta had a ridiculously high power level besides his giftedness. Also, using your logic, the average human is not that strong either. They are weaker than the average saiyan. With that logic a gifted human< a gifted saiyan. Even those the humans were gifted, they would still be eclipsed by a saiyan of similar calibur.

Also, have you forgotten vegeta had gotten the hell beat out of him to achieve his power. As far as the series goes, that only goes for those with saiyan blood. Even though the earthlings had higher gravity, vegeta had the ability to get stronger, only months and possibly years can achieve. Knowing this, even with heightenend gravity, it would be difficult to catch up with an ability like that.

Finally, I don't use Funimation as a guide really. They put in a lot of stuff that would confuse the average viewer, such as the iconic "Over nine thousand" line when the original stated "over eight thousand".

I'm not arguing that the earthlings didn't get stronger, but no earthling would have surpassed vegeta, unless they had a special case like uub.

>Xyex

Nakatsuru did most of the design works (including SSJ4 form) but Toriyama did do some early character design.
This is pulled off from DBGT article in Japanese Wikipedia(http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%...3%E3%83%9C%E3%83%BC%E3%83%ABGT). I don't know how much I can trust Wiki, but I've heard this from other fans too, so....

> Ukeru
I definatley think they surpassed vegeta at his weaker levels on Namek, because king kais was the first time they were exposed to such high level training and it would have improved thier power dramatically, is it so hard to believe? On namek vegeta's power goes beyond 1,000,000 anyway so the earthlings dont come close after that, vegetas power increased so much because he was finally fighting powerful foes unlike when he was under frieza there would have been no decent enemies to greatly improve his power thats y i think it stayed at 18,000 as long as it did.

@David ( the french ^^ )
You should not be posting your arts here this is about dbm and chat about it not to show off your own works, no offense about the works but this is just not the place. if you get a deviant art i would visit you though :)

>Yo

That is possible. Besides frieza's army, most battles would be lopsided. I can agree with that. However, I don't think Vegeta was always conquering. As seen in the dialogue between Kiwi and Vegeta, there seemed to be a rivalary so that meant Vegeta would have came back to HQ sometimes and during this time he would probably be training, because in the back of his mind he would probably think he was the best which would probably caused him to fight others. With that he would fight stronger oppoenents, well atleast those as strong as himself, so I don't agree why his pL would stay at 18,000 if it even did. Still it is possible.

> Ukeru
When arriving on earth vegeta's power his 18,000 before is gallick gun power up, so before coming to earth his power was 18,000 or weaker im just saying had he fought more powerful opponents he would have been much stronger, yes he would be training but frieza's men were safeguarded from vegeta so he had no strong powers eg. 10,000 and above to fight and greatly increase his strength like on namek. And yes goku trained times 10 earths gravity to reach 180,000. Tien was at least 60,000 after King Kais, thats still not close to gokus power.

>Yo

Meh, shrugs I can't really agree or disagree since I didn't look for powerlevels in depth, I judged everything comparitavely.

Even so, I can't disprove your argument about safe guarding, but I am still skeptical about it. Anyway, I agree the Human had a huge power boost, but whether they could defeat the Ginyu force or not is possible, but whether the filler eppy had a solid source is debatable.

And for the person who claimed Tien is strongest. Well though Krillin didn't get King Kai's training, he was still powerful as seen in the jinzo'ningen arc. Is Krillin is so weak, why did Tien leave behind Chiaotzu? It's obvious, the clown man wouldn't have the power to do anything. But if the king kai pupils were so much stronger than Krillin, why would he even show up?

I'm not aruging who is stronger, but it seems people forgot that fact.

>Ukeru
i havnt forgot that, chaozu only became strong enough to beat guldo so indeed krillin is stronger, theres just no real reason why krillin would have surpassed tien. Remember his Tri Beam against Super Buu? obviously a huge amount of power in that attack. They werent ridicously stronger but i still say stronger, untill yamcha gives up that is, i dont think the earthlings showed any signs of being weaker than the ginyu after namek.
And explain this jinzo'ningen arc.

>Yo

I agree. I do believe the human were stronger that Frieza's army minus Frieza himself. As for power I would say Tien, Krillin, Yamcha and then chiaotsu. Of course Tien's power level is debateable, but I would say Tien without his tri beamis comparable to frieza at his first form - frieza at his second form. Anything beyond that would be pushing it, unless they were special like uub. Still, I would say they obtained the power to defeat the ginyu force during the latter portion of finishing King Kai's training. Any time before that is iffy for me.

>Ukeru
Im glad u agree tien is stronger than krillin.
Hmmm, I dont think tien would be a match for frieza first form untill the buu saga if at all, its hard to say, but yeah he would definatley come close with his power level in the buu saga.

wow this is the best fight so far

to comment on the previous arguement, tienshinhan was stronger than gohan when he held off cell. Tien also almost died from the exurtion because if people remembered why the tri beam is so dangerous...Its dangerous because it takes the life force away from the user. Even if you use it onces, your life is shortened (unless u are healed quickly)