Dragon Ball Multiverse

gt is bad, and you should feel bad for mentioning it.
turning goku back into a kid was a stupid thing, him having need of his tail to be a ssj3 for more then a few seconds was also retarded.
and ssj4 just looks crappy.

and don't forget ssj4 gogeta was a CLOWN, that wasted the 2 or 3 minutes that he existed to play tricks on the dragon dude.

----
It would be interesting if Mr. Satan was still alive in zen buu's universe. i think that zen buu has only absorbed everyone that is strong (all the z-fighters, and any other powerfull beings in his universe) i doubt he would go on a random destruction spree and blow up planets.

@ A.D.
Did you read all of the original Dragon Ball? He mastered the tail problem before the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai.

And having a tail does increase his power, but I'm not sure if there has been an official statement as to if it makes him physically stronger, or if it is a mental mind over matter deal.

Evidence: Goku was trapped by Giran's gum during the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai, and after having his tail regrow, he was able to break the gum that he was previously restrained by and unable to escape.

@Gokuman

i remember that, i though that was just due to comfort, because by that time he had always trained with his tail, so when he lost it the first and second time i remember him saying that he felt weird and he fell down a few times.

i always saw goku's tail as like extra balance, then when he lost the tail, it was kind of like popping and ear drum.

what if gogeta and vegetto did the fusion dance? would the universe(s) implode?



EDIT: after reading the debate i am going to trump everyone.

goku wanted to fuse at full power with the earrings to maximize the effect but he was warned not to because they would never be able to power down, significantly shortening their lives.

with the fusion dance, since it is temporary allowed the users to be at full (but equivalent) power when fusing.

hence, (at least in the beginning) gogeta would be significantly stronger than vegetto.

mr.saten actuly ssj4 gogeta waz hella fuckin awsome wat tha fuck is wrong with your mind dude sure he waz a nut but he is smart and he is apart of vegeta and goku isnt as stupid as he waz years ago and dont fuckin forget it fool vegeto would be tha same way cuz gogeta in movie 11 waz so serious never fuckin smiled but vegeto did aginst buu any your fuckin stupid for saying that but its wat you think so...

gogeta vs vegetto

These numbers what someone is showing here actually doesnt matter much...

If goku is 5000 and vegeta is 4000 so vegetto would be 9000 without any bonuses and gogeta would be 8000 without any bonuses but why gogeta wouldn't be able to power up to 9000 ... gokus power doesn't go anywhere its just hidden.

MY own ssj multiplier (discussed few pages ago) opinion(no need to start fighting

Few pages ago was that ussj vs ssj2 thing going on so i decided to join discussion...

I'll start from freeza battle.

Goku 3 millions and kaioken x10 = 30 million
Freeza supressed and stronger
goku uses kaioken x20 + powering up kamehameha= 60 million
goku hits freeza 50% (65 million) with spirit bomb
freeza after spirit bomb around 50 million while using 50% of his power
and now comes the difference

Goku transforms to ssj but because its new form to him and strain causes him to get only 40x multiplier which puts him around 120 million while freeza is around 100 million so it pretty big difference in power.

then androids come and goku train 3 years and lets say that he gets 5 million base and vegeta trains even harder and gets 6 million base.

goku fights with 19 and transforms to ssj (still strain) and gets 40x multiplier and powers up to 200 million and vegeta is 240 million

then goku gets heart virus and vegeta is defeated so they both know that ssj isn't good
vegeta trains to get stronger with trunks and goku trains to control ssj with gohan.

Vegeta trained his ussj form and pushes ssj transformation beyond limit and gets around 45x multiplier while his base has grown to 10 million so ssj would be 400 million and ussj 450 million which is pretty big difference in power.

Trunks trained to surpass his father but his base is maybe around 9 million which puts his ssj around 360 million and ussj 405 million but then comes big difference he trains his ussj beyond natural limits and gets multiplier around 52x that places him stronger than any other ssj but he is slower.

Goku and Gohan trains and gets base around 11 million and trains to control ssj and masters it after that they get full 50x multiplier which means they are stronger than ussj but weaker than ussj2 in terms of power, but because their base is stronger than trunks they are stronger.

Using latest numbers:

after Time chamber

Goku & Gohan = 11 million x 50
Vegeta = 10 million x 45
Trunks = 9 million x 52

Before Time Chamber

Goku = 5 million x 40
Vegeta = 6 million x 40
Trunks 4 million x 40

These numbers are my examples and this whole post is just my own opinion on multipliers

Sorry for long post which is written with bad english.

lol knowing how many plot holes the anime/manga has, why are we still trying to get a foot hold on who is more powerfull?

Like you can't measure the power of gogeta, just the same as you can't tell who is stronger out of jenemba and super buu, now poeple might try and give a valid reason to why they can but you really cant.

Also in movies they can make the characters powers almost identical..(seeing as everyones doning those powerlevel things <_<)


In manga: Goku base:5000 (example btw)
Vegeta base:4500

in a movie/ova it could be
Goku base: 5000
Vegeta base:4990

this is simply because you cant pinpoint when the fight actualy took place. e.g. slug lord fight or cooler 2nd comming fight.

isn't big bang kamehameha gogeta's attack and final kamehameha vegetto's?

@negative one, cry some more.

vegetto only played with buu, because he wanted to goad him into absorbing him.
gogeta wasted the 2 or 3 minutes that he existed to fool around and act like a clown, trowing confetti at the dragon dude? come on you think that is awesome? grow up, you fail at a being a troll.

the whole GT thing is just massive fail, with only a small few thats that where good but that got ruined by something else

things that where good:
Pan's design and clothes (just a shame her personality sucked and that she was a weakling)
super 17. he was pretty cool, shame he barely did anything besides absorbing energy.

the rest was just retarded, gohan no longer being able to unlock his full potention (mystic/ultimate) and instead going ssj again.
vegeta's hair and moustache.
goten turning into a lazy horndog that chases after girls.
trunks turning into a nerd like gohan. and wearing a horrible outfit at the same time.
baby....the whole concept whas just retarded, same as his name.
the dragons, a awesome concept used wrong.
goku being turned into a kid and behaving very arrogant and saying stuff that doesn't make sense (like: Not many survive my kamehameha wave)...please dude, it's the only energy attack you use and you never killed anymore with it.
ssj4 it just looks stupid.

@hearless, does it realy matter? they are both formed by the same 2 people, they can both use the same attacks if they want or name it the same

Gt what can i say, overall its bad and i agree with a lot of Mr. satan's points, but again there are things i like about, like the villians, like general Rilldo, baby super 17 omega shenron. i kind of do and don't like the way the story goes from Planet M-2 and on. I love the 10xKamehameha and final shine attacks(when first used).

Things i don't like, i HATE them setting up for a fight and replacing it with a crap comedy moment. A lot of the characters were worthless, most of all Gohan, the most powerful non fused character, downgraded to an to a weak super saiyan. The tournament was a joke. At the begin of GT, Vegeta what did they do to you. AND MOST OF ALL, Goku being a kid. the idea just sucks.

Now multiverse, is a great concept. with lot of great fights. and its closer to what akira would have done, if he had continued DB. I can't wait to see Uub's full power and if they make vegeta SSJ3. To me this is the next part of DB.

one last thing. I read that the sword that trunks has in DB online, is the one tapion give him, so does that make movie 13 kind of canon.

Yeah, ill give my take on the fusion debate

IMHO, as soon as you start using power levers or math pieces to show how the fusion works using math, you fail, the author never made math solutions to the fusions so at best you're only wasting time concluding an answer.

So in my mind, lets rather look at what the fusion did for goten and trunks, and what the potara fusion did for vegeta and goku, as the only way to measurement.

Goten and trunks as SS where shown to be around 18's power, so i'm guessing at base and SS they are as strong as goku was at the beginning of the android saga, by dancing they gained enough power to survive against fat buu, who at the time was about as strong as a SS3, and it was believed he could fare well or take him out as a SS1.

So for the sake of simplicity lets say their fusion dance yielded an increase of Android saga goku base to SS2 buu saga goku base, and SS1 as high as SS3 goku.

Now super buu, he was a LOT stronger than fat buu going by this, SS3 gotenks could not kill him, and thats a big leap in power, then add on gohan and SS3 gotenks himself (and piccolo) to create super buuhan.

Now the potara dance, it allowed goku and vegeta to fight against super buuhan as vegeto at SS1, and dominate. So their increase would go from base buu saga goku/vegeta to over ss3 goku levels at base, it would hardly all it a stretch to say base vegeto could fight of fat buu.

compare the potara dance with the fusion, at a base level, it allowed goten and trunks to go from android saga base levels to buu saga ss2 levels, while potara went from buu saga base to buu saga ss3 (at minimum, most likely above ss3)

Now if you believe that base buu saga goku could take on android saga SS1 goku, then the two are roughly as effective if base vegeto = ss3 goku, myself believe that base buu saga goku could not do so, thus the potara should be more effective.

dance: 2.5 inc (SS levels)
Potara 3-3.5 inc (SS levels)

ps
(i did not use buuhan, as his level would logically be somewhere around SS4 and SS5, and vegeto even beyond that, thus i use base vegeto)

Again, using math or multiplication/powerlevels in this debate is dumb and fictional, conclude with what we have to conclude with + logic!

ideas that were good in gt:
Ss4 Goku Vegeta, and Gogeta(if somebody has a problem with the design of the ss4 than how he/she can imagine this form other than the ape-like design?)
Szper 17 and oozaru

the dragon ball as an enemy

majuub-the final fusion of buu

the super namekian dragon balls(black star)
I would see Goku and wegeta with (golden) tails in andult and ssj form :)
fails:

Goku as a kid. At least If he changed at the begining and later back to adult I
could cope with it.

Magicallly reappearing pants and clothers. At least they would explain it, like using sayan clothes whitch expand or magically engineered clothes by piccolo etc.

Goku as the only capable fighter. And Vegeta only turned into ss4 at the end.
No Mystic Gohan, or Gotenks,(they turns only ss1), Nr. 17 could beat the crap out of Trunks, Cell and Frieza as a joke fighters.
Baby, Too much ki blast fight lacking in hand-to hand fight.
A great tournament would be good.
Piccolo useless, at least he would be fused with his dad in hell to become ultra super namek.

Gokumun
>I'm going to assume you are legally blind...
And I'm going to assume that you are legally stupid. :) Yes. I've read that. I've also read the other bit where it says that "any Namekian born into the Dragon Clan can lay eggs." My point was quite simply that it's never stated, anywhere, ever, that Warrior types can not create offspring. If it were intended that the Warrior Types could not have offspring at all it would be mentioned. All tht entry explains, as I said, is how Daimao and Saichouro made they're kids.

A-man
>They could easily change that by disabling the comments for the first 9 pages and only allowing people to comment on the 10th page. It is not that hard to do. Or disabling comments on all 10 pages, because the pages are being redone and have a totally separate place where people can discuss the changes.
And then you'd have people bitching about that.

>Your counter to the idea is not well thought out what so ever. That is just the admins being lazy about changing the code a bit.
I was only giving one reason, it's not like I was trying to write a dissertation on it.

Ur dumb
>none of you guys make sense. vegetto= vegeta ssj2 + goku ssj3. then gogeta= goku ssj3 + vegeta ssj2 they are the same.. duhhhh
No, you've got that wrong.

Vegetto = Base Goku (max power) + Base Vegeta (max power) x Potara multiplier.
Gogeta = Base Goku (supressed power) + Base Vegeta (max power) x Dance multiplier.

LivingxxGod
>Volume and page please.
It's from the (relatively) new "Super Exciting Guide: Story Volume" book. It doesn't say that it's directly A x B. But what's said is that the dance fusion is "like addition" and that Potara fusion is so powerful it is "like multiplication". Not sure of the page number, I can't seem to find it mentioned anywhere. XD

>I've been noted that while the SS transformation was 50x Toriyama intended it to be 10x. In other words, far after the fact he changed his mind and let plot holes - so I take this whole fusion thing with a grain of salt. It's more like people demand or request information for something that never really had a proper backing to begin with.
Yeah, he does say he'd thought of it as 10x but realized it wouldn't work so it just had to be 50x. He never actually changed or adjusted it during the course of the series, just shrugged that it was higher than he'd originally wanted and kept going.

>Going by statements, the 2 should be much different, but if he states the specifics in the SEG - it would be nice to know his moreso current thoughts on the matter.
Actually, SSJ2 at 2x makes perfect sense. The only time SSJ2's power is ever actually a relavent question is Gohan vs. Cell and, well, Gohan was in Rage Mode™ at the time, which makes him much stronger. 1.84x stronger, if you go by the Saiya-jin Saga. So if base Gohan was 100 and SSJ Gohan was 5,000, SSJ2 Gohan would be 10,000 under normal conditions but Rage Mode™ SSJ2 Gohan would be 18,400. Which, along with the 1.3x rape-stomp differnetial, fully accounts for Gohan's trouncing of Cell.

Super Gojita 3
>Too bad all the potara eaarrings were destroyed in dbz.
They weren't, actually. Kaioshin, Kibito, and the old Kaioshin each had a pair. Goku and Vegeta used the old Kaioshin's pair originally, and crushed Kibitoshin's pair later, but there are still two earrings left (the ones that Kaioshin and Kibito each removed prior to fusing).

@ TrexTitan :

>Now if you believe that base buu saga goku could take on android saga SS1 goku,
As you said, I don't think that is possible. Goku couln't improve that much (50 times) in 10 years.

>then the two are roughly as effective if base vegeto = ss3 goku
IMO, base Vegito is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. He can handle Buu Gohan in a way that Goku couldn't. It is the anime though, is it reliable ? I don't know.
I won't go further since my post can make the Buu's power topic again :P

I think there will be a fight with Vegeto and Gogeta.:)

Salagir i was wondering if i translated the whole dbm comic into greek would you add a greek version?

you guys do a good job and all but youve got that wrong...its gogeta who uses big bang kamehameha (the combo of big bang attack and of course the kamehameha). vegeto uses final kamehameha (final flash and kamehameha)

As per cannon, Base Vegeto never fought Buuhan. He transformed right away.

At any rate, without going into it for the millionth time, my own estimates place base Vegeto at about 3/5 SSJ Goku, which is still quite insane, and his SSj1 state as around 4-5x stronger than SSj3 Goku, which is more than insane.

what I really want to know is: how does everyone know Goku & Vegeta's power levels.

@ negative one-
>ah geno but wat if vegeta and goku were tha same power level aha!!! then it would be even
Actually, that's the same argument that I like to use. However, that doesn't disprove what I said to you before because it has nothing to do with it.
>and besides geno i no all of that i just like to go with the negative side of things
Well, if that's what you like to do, then that's fine. Doesn't mean you won't be argued against, though.

@ Super Gojita 3-
>Too bad all the potara eaarrings were destroyed in dbz.
No, I believe one set remains. There were three pairs and only two were destroyed.

@ SuperSaiyanAppule-
>dear geno
Don't be so formal...
>do you think that if Goku had his tail on, would his fusion with Vegeta have been even stronger than what they are today?
If so, it would only be by a bit. Goku said he feels stronger with his tail, that doesn't mean that he really is.
>If Majin Buu absrobred cell, ... could Goku and buu fuse to make a Vegetoo with the Fusion Jewelery?
No, because not only is there very little of Vegeta inside of Cell, but there are also a little of a whole lot of other people. On top of that, it'd be Buu who Goku would be fusing with, anyway. Cell would be a prisoner inside of Buu with his energy being fed on, he wouldn't actually be combined with Buu completely. The end result would be a cell-looking Buuku or something like that.
>Also I read somewhere that Goku and Dende fuse at the end of the buu saga
>Also I read somewhere that Goku and Hercules fuse at the end of the buu saga
Seriously...? Common sense will tell you how dumb those questions are...

@ heartless-
>isn't big bang kamehameha gogeta's attack and final kamehameha vegetto's?
It doesn't matter. It's the same two people in both fusions. Both of the fusions would be able to come up with and use both moves.

@ TrexTitan-
>Now the potara dance
Just a clarification, potara fusion is not a dance.

@ Paulemile-
>I don't think that is possible. Goku couln't improve that much (50 times) in 10 years.
Goku goes from a power level of 430 to around 3,000,000 in about 2 years. Do the math, that's way more than a 50x increase in power. Now you say it's impossible to just have him get 50x stronger in 10 years? Sure, you can throw out the zenkais, but that doesn't make it impossible.
>IMO, base Vegito is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. He can handle Buu Gohan in a way that Goku couldn't. It is the anime though, is it reliable ? I don't know.
Well, just going off the manga you can easily tell that ssj Vegetto is holding back about 4/5 or 9/10 of his power. If you make him 50 times weaker, he has a very good chance of being stronger than ssj3 Goku. However, I think the anime is full of crap with base Vegetto being able to fight against Buu. I don't see him still dominating when put 50 times weaker than ssj Vegetto.

@ Living 2 Death-
>you guys do a good job and all but youve got that wrong...its gogeta who uses big bang kamehameha (the combo of big bang attack and of course the kamehameha). vegeto uses final kamehameha (final flash and kamehameha)
Again, who cares? Same 2 people that fuse, same memorized moves from both people. Why does it matter which one you've seen them use before? They can both come up with the same moves. Your argument is like if Vegetto used big bang attack and Gogeta used Final Flash, and then suggesting that only this would be possible and not the reverse just because you haven's seen them do it before. It's an energy attack formed by the combination of two energy attacks by the fusion components. Both fusions would be able to do it.

@geno, you might find the anime crap. but as far as fight scenes go I preffer it a lot over the manga

Geno
>"No, I believe one set remains. There were three pairs and only two were destroyed."

Can't the Kaioshin (or at least Kabit) create potara out of magic? Gohan appeared to be wearing some when Kabit changed his clothes. They could be just regular earrings that look the same since there is nothing stated about them but considering the coloring of the earrings match Kaioshins in the Kanzenban I don't see why not?

The Kaioshin had to get them from somewhere right?



Living 2 Death
>"you guys do a good job and all but youve got that wrong...its gogeta who uses big bang kamehameha (the combo of big bang attack and of course the kamehameha). vegeto uses final kamehameha (final flash and kamehameha)"

Video games are not canon.



Paulemile
>"As you said, I don't think that is possible. Goku couln't improve that much (50 times) in 10 years."

Unfortunately Goku improved more than 50x in 10 years as his base form in the Buu saga was stronger than his SS form in the Frieza saga. Disagreeing is disagreeing with the statements in the manga.
Buu Saga (base not listing super saiyans):
Goku > Vegeta > Piccolo > Android 18
Android Saga:
Android 18 > SS Goku >=< SS Vegeta

Most people attempt to compensate by having the audacity to lower the Super Saiyan multipliers. Regardless, that's what it is when you go by the statements.

Remember, the 3 weakest warriors were instructed to Perish at the hands of Dabura to lure the strongest in. Base Gohan, Goku, and Vegeta were chosen while Kaioshin was specifically excluded from the russian roulette. In addition, Vegeta stated that he wouldn't need to go Super Saiyan and as long as nobody else did he'd still hold the advantage - yet we all figured out later that Goku's base > Vegeta's base pre Majin.

Asking for your own personal sense of logic in DBZ is essentially pointless - you should have thrown that out the window after you saw variabled jumps in power randomly during the Frieza saga. You can only run by the statements and actions performed and use that as your logical basis as through his characters is how the author tells his story.


>"IMO, base Vegito is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. He can handle Buu Gohan in a way that Goku couldn't."

I'm afraid not, using whatever logic you can - one would assume that Vegetto transformed because he had to and he's not stupid like the kids he mocked. I don't see Vegetto stronger than SS3 Goku but I see him as very powerful. He was powerful enough to block Buu without using his hands - going by that you could say that he was at least as powerful as the ratio between Goku to Frieza when Frieza attempted the same thing. (Although Frieza wasn't a real warrior he just had incredible power/stamina/speed) While Vegetto was 2 of the best fighters in the world.



Gokumem
>"There is no plot hole in Super Saiyan being a 50x multiplier. Toriyama said he originally intended Super Saiyan to be 10x. But that would make him weaker than when he used the 20x Kaio-ken, thus rendering that idea null and proving Toriyama's own intention wrong, a fact he rectified in the Daizenshuu.

>Toriyama doesn't really care about Dragon Ball, he's tired of it and doesn't remember half of his own work. It seems to me, that if he doesn't really care, he'll say anything off the top of his head to shut the fans or the book writers up. So you might as well take everything as it is, you more than likely won't get a better explanation later."

That's basically a rewrite of what I said.


>"As for 99% my information, it's taken directly from the manga, anime, Daizenshuu, or other guides translated by the guys at Daizenshuu EX or Kanzentai. It's only as erroneous as those who actually use the straight facts from original sources. I personally dislike the half hearted fans who spread information from any uncreditable source."

That's cool. I own the original japanese Dragon Ball volumes 1-42, the Kanzenban, and the Viz translated Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z non BIGeditions.

I also own the Daizenshu's, hardback. I've actually posted a page here before from one of my books. I don't own the SEG though, but I know of a seller who owns 1.

I get these books more for an entertainment value, as all the information within them don't always match the manga - it's an "after the fact" type of thing. Including some of the power levels mentioned in the Daiz 7. (i.e - Raditz having a higher power level than a Saibaman)
I take more pride in reading his interviews as they allow for a bit of interpretation on his work.


>"BTW, do you understand Japanese?"

No, at least not yet, but I work as an Account Manager at an International Brokerage Firm, so I can have anything I want translated whenever I want to.



Xyex
>"Gogeta = Base Goku (supressed power) + Base Vegeta (max power) x Dance multiplier."

Why would Vegeta need to be suppressed when he and Goku's base power were basically the same? I'm not going to quote the exact page as I'm at work and don't have my manga in my hands but Babadi chants to his crystal ball that he is now going to release some of Vegeta's latent power upon making him Majin. Just because he loses his Majin connection shouldn't mean he reseals that much of his latent energy. Under that presumption one would also have to say that Krillin dropped back down to around 1,500 after Frieza killed him. When coinciding this with the fact that the transformation multipliers should match for each warrior - their base power should be basically the same. Goku just had a higher transformation though.

Now, after the Buu saga, yeah Goku is more powerful. Vegeta states in the Buu saga that Goku is more gifted than he and concludes that nobody should be strong enough for Goku at the Budokai unless he's not from Earth.


>"The only time SSJ2's power is ever actually a relavent question is Gohan vs. Cell and, well, Gohan was in Rage Mode™ at the time, which makes him much stronger."

Is this just your conjecture? It's fine and all. But the Daiz 7 merely mentions that Gohan hits SS2. It doesn't say anything about any kind of state of Rage causing him to have a higher power than anyone else who had Gohan's SS power and hit SS2.

@ LivingxxGod :

>Buu Saga (base not listing super saiyans):
>Goku > Vegeta > Piccolo > Android 18

Now can you explain me how Babidi understands that while the guys may keep their power hidden all the time ? Do you have any statement in guides, manga of whatever which tells that ?

>Asking for your own personal sense of logic in DBZ is essentially pointless
Well, I have to agree with this, even if the statement's logic regarding power levels seems crazy.
But since we can find contradictions even between statements from the manga why not giving his own opinion ? Even if you have some valuable arguments here, however.

Livingxxgod

your taking a statement about Vegeta saying he doesn't need Ssj to win the tourny as fact?
This isn't the first time vegeta has lied to hide his pride. Also he didn't know all who was going to be competing.
Also the time when Dabra spat on krillen and piccolo was a plot device and they were suppressing their powerlevels.

Also the movie shows their bases are not the same as goku has no problem dodging janemba's laser like beams,,,, but vegeta was crippled from them.

The Majin is a spell that unlocks latent power but once a spell is over so are the effects.

Just me 2 cents.

i want some of the big commenters (like Geno, DUDE, LivingxxGod and so on) to comment on the namek fusion.

do you guys think there is a multiplier involved?

if there is a multiplier, is it present in EVERY namek fusion?

if we look at the increase of power piccolo got out of fusing with nail (from 42k(nail)+X(piccolo, who couldnt reasonably be much stronger than nail by that time)*multiplier=freeza second form (1 million)), can we assume that it is due to the afore mentioned multiplier?

would a namek that fused numerous other nameks into himself get the multiplier everytime, (maybe varying in potency a bit everytime)?

would all that not mean that the super namek, who is ALL post-cataclysm nameks fused into one, got the multiplier 109 times (given that the total population is said to be about 110 including nail and guru)?

following that train of thought, would that not mean that the super namek should by all accounts be the strongest of all (in DBM), even if it is only nails lowly 42k power he is originally based on?

enough with the questions, though. besides zen buu, who could have anything and anyone absorbed from known characters to unknowns, making it impossible to gauge his level of power accurately, super namek should be THE big guy of the tournament. i know not everything in DBZ/M does have to make perfect sense. but still. the namek fusion is canon to DBZ and as such its effects should be taken over into DBM. as there is no definitve number given for piccolos power, we can only go by nails power. its around 42k when he fights. after fusing with piccolo, their combined power jumps to second form freeza levels. there IS a significant multiplier involved. given the fact that nail and piccolo are not blood (or whatever passes for blood in nameks) related its unreasonable to assume its something special reserved just for the two. if ONLY kami and piccolo fusing resulted in the power increase multiplier, it WOULD be considerable as something special. for kami and piccolo. but already nail+piccolo had a huge multiplier in it. so its reasonable to assume a multiplier (which may vary from fusion to fusion due to power differences or genetics or mind sets or whatever) is in EVERY namek fusion. IF this IS the case, all nameks fusing into one namek should be all means result in a being so powerful that there actually arent words to describe it.(a bit of hyperbole, if you allow it).

now, guys. i beg you do not dismiss this as "dont take it so seriously" or any number of one-liners that are meant to tell me to not try and make sense of all. you all induldge yourself with discussions on power levels and fusion mechanics and what not. so please take some time to read this post not only once but twice and then tell me what you think about the things i just wrote :D

thanks in advance.

and yes, im doing this to get enough supporters for this idea, in order to force salagir to rethink the way he planned the super namek. i still want to see the back story to him, anyway :D

mr.popo would still beat the super namek :P

Paulemile
>"Now can you explain me how Babidi understands that while the guys may keep their power hidden all the time ? Do you have any statement in guides, manga of whatever which tells that ?"

Babadi doesn't, Dabura does, but how does he know? I don't remember the exact statement off the top of my head - I'll provide the volume, chapter and page along with the quote when I'm home from work.


>"But since we can find contradictions even between statements from the manga why not giving his own opinion ? Even if you have some valuable arguments here, however."

Well you see, statements that contradict are merely corrections on a characters part(a story building mechanic on the writers part). For instance - Piccolo believes Gotenks may be able to beat Buu after all. Then later he realizes that he was wrong and states to the contrary. Or everyone saying Dende was dead, then you have Gohan show up, disagree and later find Dende alive. Goku tells Piccolo that he doesn't think he could have beaten Fat Buu, but later he tells Vegeta that in all reality - he could have beaten the fat Majin. Or Goku and Vegeta stating that they were sure they could handle the midgit (Kid Buu) but soon afterwards Goku states that he'll need to go all out (in SS3) to even have a chance against this one (Kid Buu). Or Fat Buu first appearing and you finding out that the warriors have gotten so powerful that this new threat Majin Buu was weaker than them. Even Gohan believed he would be able to best Majin Buu at full power - but soon after, Buu skyrocketted his power to knock Dabura out of commission thus the story changed for Gohan causing him to grab Kaioshin and attempt to flee. Simultaneously you have Vegeta claiming as if it was still nothing and he doesn't really care, but right after knocking out Son Goku, he apologizes by speaking to the wind that he was sorry - and that he may actually die. Another surprise to people is that Krillin is stated to being the strongest amongst humans by the Buu saga, causing people to defy the manga's statements. Only later to find out that Toriyama stated in the Daiz that Tien is an alien - an obvious retcon of his creative mindset he had from Dr Slump when writing the beginning of Dragon Ball.

I could go on and on. Just go by the words, when you find a contradiction - run with the latter evidence or if appropriate -combine the 2 as they may fit together. Don't just see the contradiction of words and merely take that as an opportunity to insert whatever it is that you want to say and believe it as truth. Because in all reality, that's just not how long running comics work, or comics in general work at all...



Dave
>"your taking a statement about Vegeta saying he doesn't need Ssj to win the tourny as fact?"

I take anything and everything a character says as fact until it is disproven. When Vegeta states things that you know are false, you know because you find out it is false - not because you magically "just know."

Vegeta is a character in the story and he is nothing more than the extension of Akira Toriyama. If he states that he will do his best to give Kakarott a minute to build his chi and doesn't make that minute mark - you know because the story told you. But if he dedicates his death to his wife, son, and the warrior who made him reach such levels to begin with - Goku. Then you don't just assume he is lying, you take what he says as fact because it is never counterstated.

In the end, don't pay attention to who is saying something, pay attention to what is going on and what is said. You see, it's normal for people to merely pick and choose which statements they'll accept and which they'll dismiss. But when they do so without encompassing them all honestly - they'll never reach an honest conclusion...


>"This isn't the first time vegeta has lied to hide his pride. Also he didn't know all who was going to be competing."

Gohan was suggesting for all the powerful fighters to show up, which is why Krillin specifically noted to Gohan to please not invite Piccolo so he could have a chance. Android 18 isn't the big deal, Piccolo is more powerful than she is and he was joining to. In addendum, I wasn't utilizing one form of evidence, I was utilizing 2 and coinciding them together. You do realize Vegeta was far more powerful than Android 18 even 8 years before, right? (That is also utillizing Vegeta's 2nd day in ROSAT)

Lastly, I fully realize Vegeta wasn't 100% correct on his comment as he later stated that Goku was more powerful than he was pre Majin power unlocking. But considering Vegeta clearly was willing to follow the rules even after seeing each and every contender present to fight. All the evidence points in my claims favor.


>"Also the movie shows their bases are not the same as goku has no problem dodging janemba's laser like beams,,,, but vegeta was crippled from them"

You lost me at "also the movie shows" because you can't use that as evidence of anything sir.


>"Yeah thats true but i don't think given a chance for his rematch with goku Vegeta wouldn't have it any other way than if they were both fighting at full power.. or at least he would need full power. It's the way his pride works." (comment below)

At the time of the Budokai, Vegeta didn't even know how strong Goku really was. What happened later is what caused Vegeta to admit that Goku was stronger. If they would have fought at the Budokai, I'm sure Vegeta in the end would have cheated after realizing he wasn't going to win just to tell Kakorrot to not be so naive next time. But that doesn't configure into what I proclaimed though - they never fought and it's already noted that Goku was the better of the 2. That doesn't say anything for the others outside of Goku. In fact, it's outright stated that Goku and Vegeta were the strongest unless Gohan got extremely mad because they don't know exactly how strong he'd get.



Syrias Satellite Radio
>"do you guys think there is a multiplier involved?"

I'm sorry man, I'm not the guy for guessing multipliers. But if I had to wager on it, I'd say that the Super Namek was actually around the power of Super Vegetto. No rhyme or reason for it, just chalk it up to Salagir's wish for a Namekian to claim their respect again - and if he isn't up to par, there are 2 spectating Piccolo's he can choose to also join with. The facts of the Nameks past in specifics aren't in line nor are the honest multipliers in energy. All we know is that a warrior Namek with a warrior Namek will multiply the users power by many times as stated by Nail whilst he lay near dead on the ground. Seeing as Kami escaped to Earth, who knows whom or how many other "special" or warrior Nameks he joined with while he traveled space.

I say, when it comes to the Namek, just enjoy the show. I think he's one of the best prospects in this tournament as of now. Seeing as Piccolo is my favorite character and all, Namekians are great.


>"also, i did not ask to pinpointly name a specific number for the multipier. i just want you to admit that there actually IS a multiplier involved in namek fusion AND that is has to be taken into consideration for the super namek, which results in him being far stronger than most of the fans her seem to assume." (comment below)

Man, all this information on the Super Namek I could care less about. But asking if there is a multiplier the answer is I'm not the one to guess and if it multiplies their energy levels the answer is yes. It's stated in the manga and I've already (basically) said that when talking about Nail.

Now chill out big guy.

living god

Yeah thats true but i don't think given a chance for his rematch with goku Vegeta wouldn't have it any other way than if they were both fighting at full power.. or at least he would need full power. It's the way his pride works.

@LivingxxGod

nameless namek was part of the dragon clan and also was just a baby when he was sent to earth, a small child when he arrived. he canonically never mentioned any other nameks, when he remembered his past before he became the kami of earth. so the multiplier is not limited to warrior nameks. also warrior nameks and dragon clan are not genetically different. warrior nameks simply do not know how to create dragon balls, while dragon clan nameks do. likewise, piccolo senior was a warrior namek of his own choosing. otherwise he would have used his ability to create dragon balls for himself. when he was split from nameless namek, he did not take the knowledge of the DB creation over to the new form. by that logic, piccolo jr. became a warrior because his dad was one.

nameks are shown to be able to easily duplicate themselves for a short duration of time. nameks are shown to be able to fuse two sepperate nameks. what the nameless namek did to become kami, was the opposite of fusion. he defused all peronality trait he did not want to be part of him into their own body, piccolo.

also, i did not ask to pinpointly name a specific number for the multipier. i just want you to admit that there actually IS a multiplier involved in namek fusion AND that is has to be taken into consideration for the super namek, which results in him being far stronger than most of the fans her seem to assume.

99% percent of you are wrong. Most are just off a tiny bit, but alot of you couldnt be further from DBZ TRUTH

@Paulimile

>>then the two are roughly as effective if base vegeto = ss3 goku
>IMO, base Vegito is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. He can handle Buu Gohan in a way that Goku couldn't. It is the anime though, is it reliable ? I don't know.

Notice i say if, like i said, personally i believe vegeto at base form would be beyond ss3 goku, but dismissing it is not very nice or proper, so i mention both and let the reader decide.

And again people... there is no merit in discussing multipliers in fusion dance, namekian fusian, or potara fusion... unless we have powerlevels we cannot know, and we do not have them, However, in the case of the namekian fusion.

I'm not sure if there where released official powerlevels on piccolo pre and after fusing, but i seam to remember nail being 42 000, and piccolo should at best have the same powerup as goku got from training with king kai so:

Goku went from 420 i believe to 8000 from king kai's training, a multiplier of around 20, at best piccolo would have done as well, boosting his powerlevel from around 2000 x 20 to 40 000.

After the fusion piccolo could stand up to 2nd form frieza at well above 1 000 000 PL, so at least the two combined yielded an increase of x25.

So the answer to the question of what multiplier the namekian fusion yielded would be around x25 times.

Funny how logic can be applied anywhere with some simple maths

*LivingxxGod *
>Unfortunately Goku improved more than 50x in 10 years as his base form in the Buu saga was stronger than his SS form in the Frieza saga.
It wasn't, actually. Bas Goku was never anywhere near any SSJ level power at any time in the series.

>Disagreeing is disagreeing with the statements in the manga.
No such statements were ever made.

>Goku > Vegeta > Piccolo > Android 18
False.

>Remember, the 3 weakest warriors were instructed to Perish at the hands of Dabura to lure the strongest in. Base Gohan, Goku, and Vegeta were chosen while Kaioshin was specifically excluded from the russian roulette.
Everyone was also supressed at this point, and none of them were maxed out during the flight to Babiddi's ship. Thus who Dabura killed or spared indicates absolutely nothing about anyone's level of power. For all we know

Supressed Piccolo: 100
Supressed Vegeta: 500
Supressed Goku: 500
Supressed Gohan: 500

And thus no conclusions can be drawn from this.

>In addition, Vegeta stated that he wouldn't need to go Super Saiyan and as long as nobody else did he'd still hold the advantage - yet we all figured out later that Goku's base > Vegeta's base pre Majin.
1) Well, this is Vegeta. You don't expect him to say he's weaker than someone, do you?
2) Vegeta never would have adhered to the no SSJ thing in actual practice if it got in the way of his fight with Goku, no matter if he said he would not. Agreeing to it means jack.
3) Goku only cared about his fight with Goku, nothing else, and so he wasn't trying to win the tournament.
4) Neither Piccolo or 18 can go Super Saiya-jin so they were clearly excluded from this statement.

>you should have thrown that out the window after you saw variabled jumps in power randomly during the Frieza saga.
The Freeza saga functioned on a slightly different basis than those before or after. In the Freeza saga we saw the Zenkai spammed to hell. Never before or after did this happen, thus the erratic power spikes seen there-in were never repeated.

>Why would Vegeta need to be suppressed when he and Goku's base power were basically the same?
They're definitely a lot closer now but they're not identicle, and it seems to me that Goku still had the advantage in power during their fight. Base powers have to be equal for the dance so even if Goku's at 20 and Vegeta's at 19 then Goku still has to reduce his power to 19 for the fusion.

>(i.e - Raditz having a higher power level than a Saibaman)
There's actually nothing wrong with that. The statement in the manga isn't that their powers are identicle but that the Saibamen rival Raditz in terms of power. Which means it is perfectly plausible for Raditz to be stronger than the Saibamen. Considering that his 1,500 reading is repeated in several other source books, and the 1,200 level is seen only once in any official material, I think it's pretty safe to assume that 1,500 is his actual level and 1,200 was the typo, possibly derived in his bio from the same Sabiamen = Raditz concept that the fanbase has.

>Is this just your conjecture? It's fine and all. But the Daiz 7 merely mentions that Gohan hits SS2. It doesn't say anything about any kind of state of Rage causing him to have a higher power than anyone else who had Gohan's SS power and hit SS2.
It's not conjecture so much as established principle. Gohan + Anger = Stronger Gohan and Gohan was quite pissed off at that point. Goku was counting on Gohan's rage boost for defeating Cell. What's more, jump ahead to the Buu Saga and Goku tells Gohan to get angry "like before" in his fight with Dabura, and trying to get him to draw out his latent power. Plus Gohan himself comments that he just "can't get angry like that" during his run in with Buu. It's pretty clear that Gohan was running on more than just his "standard" power in his fight with Cell.

Syrias
I'm not one of those you mentioned, but I'm gonna chime in anyway. :p

>do you guys think there is a multiplier involved?
>if there is a multiplier, is it present in EVERY namek fusion?
Yes and no. I think there is a multiplier, but it's not a static one. It varries dependant on various factors determined by those fusing. Thus if Namek A fused with B the result could be stronger or weaker than if A fused with C. Or, for that matter, if B fused with A, because Kami even said they were using Piccolo as a base because it'd make for a stronger/more capable warrior.

o_0 big bang kamehameha

kinda funny how they have to make vegetto ssj 2 and put his bangs up :P

THERE IS NO BIG BANG KAMEHAMEHA YOU FOOL!

Aw. STill not Final Kamehameha.
Oh well.

dr killjoy - "i'll say"

A big bang kamehameha was never seen in Dragonball Z therefore the Big Bang kamehameha can be done however they want :P

vegito is ssj2 aswell he only went ssj against super buu
how can broly be this powerfull